Three Wargaming MISCONCEPTIONS

[@jbd1800]

Regarding point 1, Ash from Guerilla Miniature Games mainly plays at his studio and I’d say he accounts for over 50% of all tabletop games ever played. So this checks out 👍

[@sebastiencarrieres8825]

We'll, I worked under him at GW some 15 years ago. And let's be honest, the guy's painting speed is out of this world. So, I guess that's why he can play that much!

[@euansmith3699]

🤣🤣🤣🤣 It is funny, because it is true 🤣

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

Same with Mathew Coville and the guys over at Miniature wargaming... In fact the only Wargaming/RPG channel that I know of that plays at a store is Blitz minis. Edit=spelling.

YES! Ash plays so many games! I started following his work because of the "B-side" games he plays. As a game designer, it's really cool to see someone explore various rulesets.

[@GoobertownHobbies]

This guy really likes miniature agnostic games! Fair enough, I'm intrigued by them too :-)

[@christianreyes5912]

Goooooooooooooob!

[@alexwilliams6022]

Somehow I read this in your voice!

[@logansaxby7224]

Im in progress with creating a miniatures agnostic skirmish game based in the world of the Dead

[@BullScrapPracEff]

Brent, you should check out Urban Manhunt from Spectrum Games. They have a sale going on. It's a byom system so you've probably already painted what you'd want to play with. Admittedly I'm biased, they used some of my terrain pieces in their first main book.

[@axanax2534]

Yeah, Uncle Atom is a man of class and vision!

[@jeythecount6546]

I once placed an old, plastic DUPLO elephant on the table to serve as a Chaos Spawn just because I found this extremelly hilarious.

[@thepurplemarauder]

Nice.

[@TheMrBigT77]

I have played a 40k game with an opponent who forgot to pack a rhino... so a coke can made a great stand in

[@ajdynon]

I saw a guy at a tournament who was running a Bloodthirster of Khorne, using a miniature of a bunny rabbit surrounded by bones, a la Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

[@jeythecount6546]

@@ajdynon My Emperor I need to do it now.

[@maciejmazur2622]

my local gaming store owner hated that some people would use paper tokens with sharpie written unit name as proxies - so he had a bag of his daughters toys he made people use as proxies - there were my little pony, cute farm animals, little dolls ect. As he said : make an effort, i will never diss anyone for any 3p model or any conversion, kitbash or level of your paintjob - but put SOMETHING on the table.

[@Darkfist007]

When I see 'miniature agnostic' in a game's description I know I can go wild with conversions and kitbashes, and I love that.

[@Bluecho4]

There's also no cultural expectation that you must be exclusive to the minis produced by the developer. If you get together with a bunch of 40K players, you might need to convince them to let you play your third party or heavily kitbashed models. If you've convinced them to play, say, Grimdark Future instead, you've already done most of the work convincing them. At that point, they'll let you play with whatever models you please, because they don't carry the same expectations about what is a "legitimate" model. (Then again, the kinds of people who vehemently oppose using any other minis outside that produced by Games Workshop tend to not want to play anything not produced by GW. So they select themselves out of the discussion by dint of not even wanting to try a different game to begin with.)

[@jeffreygeorge8884]

@@Bluecho4 You've nailed it: must-use miniatures vs. mini-agnostic rules are a function of gaming culture. If players are willing to play against miniatures that were not manufactured by the rules publisher, it doesn't matter how strict the publisher tries to be. If players aren't willing to play against third-party, kit-bashed/converted, or 3D printed minis, those minis simply aren't allowed. The thing that's always amazed me is that GW has a historically abusive relationship with its customer base, yet that same base general submits to GW mandates prohibiting non-GW minis, even in events that are not sponsored by GW. If GW had a better record of serving the needs and interests of deeply-committed hobbyist customers, I'd understand their loyalty, but GW just doesn't work that way. Sometimes it's been a bit better, and sometimes it's been a bit worse, but it's never been a consistently healthy, supportive relationship between the publisher and the fans. Amazing.

[@jeffreygeorge8884]

@@colbyboucher6391 If your friend is into 40K, download the free rules for Starbreach. It's a mini-agnostic SF skirmish game, but its army list includes several factions which are obviously 40K models (including Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Demons, Necrons, AdMech, Tau, and Tyranids), so your friend could play it with you without having to buy any new models. You could buy GW models to play Starbreach with him, but you could also use Star Wars Legion models to run as The Path, The Dark Path, or The Resistance factions, or pick up an inexpensive box of Stargrave minis from North Star, and build them as any of several factions from Starbreach.

[@percyblok6014]

Yeah, agree. I know I can break out the poker chip army and be accepted. Right?

[@savagex466-qt1io]

Would be kind enuff to explain the word "agnostic" to me ? I googled it but I still dont understand. What I gather it is a person who doesnt belive in God or nor does not not belive in him ? I dont get it lol

[@grantpark9093]

Years ago... I was living in and remodeling my first home, a monstrosity built in the 1920's with 5 bedrooms plus a huge dining room, living room, and basement. I was living by myself and played 40k at the time and came up with the idea I could host games on Sunday nights, I had saw horses and 4x6 plywood everywhere so setting up "table tops" was easy. I think at the height of what we called "Sunday night fights", we would have anywhere between 6-10 games going, that means anywhere between 12-20 people in the house wargaming. We would grill food, share food, enjoy a beer or two and roll dice and push little plastic soldiers across imaginary battlefields until 10pm when I would kick everybody out. I have been playing war games for over 20 years and have never seen probably more than 10 people gaming in a store unless it was a tournament like 'Ard Boyz or something like that... most table top gaming happens in the home, I can attest to that :)

[@deadlightdotnet]

I think that there's a lot of people like you. 20 years in and out of the hobby, I've never played in a store. In my teens, the nearest store was over an hour away and we needed a parent to take us. We played at home.

[@saintcityriot1]

Yup. I just turned 30 and I played my first game at a store last year. And it wasn't even part of a tournament or anything. My friend and I just used their table and terrain, so it was still a pretty casual game.

[@bogatyr2473]

Same, been playing Battletech for over 20 years and I only darken my FLGS's door for paint.

[@nunyabidness3075]

@@galad5173 I Know, Right!? Luckily, I’ve been hanging out in a new building close enough to walk to. Clean and well lit with no smoking or vaping and a bar that sell craft beer, sodas, and packaged snacks. I even worked there part time for awhile. Mostly younger, well employed people with some college kids and some of us middle aged folk. A good amount of professionals like doctors, lawyers, etc. Part of the secret is the owners were perfectly willing to ask troublemakers to leave and didn’t cave to people complaining the discounts were not low enough. There was Pokémon for kids on certain times, but parents had to accompany all minors.

[@bobbaganooch2843]

So true about MTG. Played for 20 yrs and never played in a store. Always a garage, basement, coffee shop, breakroom, college, and warship (when I was in the Navy). Never in a games store.

[@Ranzarok]

Exactly (miniature agnostic). I saw the stream you are talking about and several people were trying to make the point that it means "there is no miniature line dedicated to this ruleset".

[@BlackDouglas1000]

Conversely, the rules are not dedicated to a miniatures line.

[@McBurnside6380]

We still play 2nd edition 40K and an occasional game of revised 7th edition because the core rules are just better than the current game. But I totally agree, I go U go turn activation is antiquated. It dates back to 1913 from the Little Wars system. There are far better war-game rules from companies other than GW. People owe it to themselves to try them out and see what they are missing. Bolt action is my favorite so far and Chain of command seems to have an intriguing system as well.

[@TheBugB]

That’s the nice thing about playing with friends is you can do what you want with the rules. If something is unbalanced or unfair or unfun just change it to your liking. Who is gonna stop you 🎉

[@DriveThruReview]

Splitting hairs a bit, but I think you might have to carve out some of the miniatures sales figure and put it in RPG. A decent chunk of the miniatures segment is Wizkids and other D&D related minis. I don't know the exact figure, but ICV2 has that info for sure. Great topic though! Nice shirt :)

[@DriveThruReview]

@@mikejonesnoreally Haha :D

[@blastobearfoot4005]

Best to treat the ICV2 reports like checking a pulse, not a end all be all of fiscal reporting. They do break out nolzur and other stuff, but how many people buy board games for the minis so numbers don't reflect intended purposes. DnD has been experiencing amazing growth as per Hasbro like 33% year over year for the last 7 years, is it on a bubble? (they was rumors of a reorganization and selling off DnD even in this great environment) The biggest thing and I am trying to find it but I think ICV2's number comes from a survey of gamestores, unsure how like Hasbro's total number reflects in that or magic or DnD (or the mentioned only 5% gaming happens at the stores how do their numbers reflect as a whole). Granted the card game section has pokemon and others and a large portion of magic sales are digital: magic had its best year in 2020 "in 2020, Magic made $581.2 million". The Wall Street Journal reported that Wizards of the Coast, based in Renton, Wash., posted revenue of $816 million for 2020, a 24% increase from 2019. So the rest of WotC made 235 million (this includes avalon hill and other things too). So how much of these numbers are reflected in ICV2's data. GW alone made about 148 million in US market, granted thsi includes books and board games etc. Best to treat it like a pulse

[@dominicparker6124]

Miniature agnostic games care more about giving you a balanced game out of the box because they have no profit motive to make to certain new things more powerful or relevant I. The meta to make them sell, and they know they won't patch the game once it's in book form so it has to be good to go as possible. They tend to be much better games on the whole than the deeply entrenched games that have a bespoke miniature line. Not always, but frequently

[@tabletopminions]

That’s a very good point about the profit motive. Thanks for watching!

[@sigurdbjohansson]

Between the time when the oceans drank Atlantis, and the rise of the sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of: The Beforetimes!

[@tinaprice4948]

@ConnorKon to slay your enemies, see them driven before you and to hear the lamentation of the women

[@SweSuf]

Soon we are bound to enter the Aftertimes; prepare, for there will be unknown perils...

[@Kazdok]

Unto this came Uncle Atom, brush in hand: a painter, a gamer. Destined to tread the varnished miniatures of pretentious gamers under his heel.

[@SuperHalberd]

The whole concept of miniature agnostic was foreign to me until I started trying out 40k which was the only game I played with a dedicated set of models for the setting. I had played historical wargames for the most part and was used to a large selection of manufacturers, scales, and rulesets for the same setting. The thought of only having one scale and one set of models and one ruleset was strange. It still feels weird sometimes playing in the 40k setting and having so little flexiblity.

[@johnworden9842]

Same here

[@elsimian3483]

I have to say that OnePageRules with 40k miniatures really does it for me - especially the alternating activation sequence. There is also a little WW2 ruleset called Iron Cross that has an interesting and compelling command system. Great video as always 👍

[@darnokx9277]

You forgotthe ACTUAL biggest misconception about tabletop wargaming: that one can have "enough models" at some point. No, you can not. There is ALWAYS a next shiny model to get, that's just a fact.

[@paulhefferan8106]

Historical gaming takes that to an extreme. Early WWII German vs late war East front German.

[@darnokx9277]

@@paulhefferan8106 True. And while historical miniatures tend to be cheaper, it is kinda offset by the urge to get ALL THE BOOKS. Seriously, there is so much literature on pretty much anything historical...

[@paulhefferan8106]

@@darnokx9277 Aye. So true.

[@story1951]

Scratch a tabletop gamer and you have a pile of unpainted figs that is only getting bigger.

[@Garrette63]

This is probably why RPG games make les money despite likely having more players.

[@opusdei789]

The netrunner call out got me. My friends and I still own our large netrunner collections!

[@WargamingLobby]

I love the "Made in Wisconsin" label on the closing screen :D

[@MatzeMB85]

Couldn't agree more about the store thing. It's in comments everywhere but we don't even have a store where i live now. We had a few years back and went there because I was interested in wargaming. I even tried it and the experience turned me away from the hobby for a good five years. A few friends got me in to it then and we keep doing our own thing and we love it. Also. I've played RPGs for years and years and only ever spent the price of a core rulebook from GW on any given game. Pen and paper RPGs are simply not about spending money.

[@BB-pn2qv]

You gotta cover Stargrave soon! Looks like a great option for Kill Team models

[@Bobbymaccys]

“Some of the worst places on the internet are the comment sections” That is so true it hurts!

[@wolvz7081]

I disagree. Because I disagree you must be wrong as I’m always right. Further more not only won’t I accept that you can have a different opinion to me I’ll use this opportunity to verbally (well type-out) attack you and even belittle your intelligence!!! How dare you not only have a opinion that isn’t 100% inline with mine but you have the audacity to leave a comment about it in the comment sections for me to find. It’s toxic comments like yours that make nice people like...... wait...... hang on.... perhaps I am an ass after all?

[@slavaukraini1991]

shut up n00b

[@craigcutler6919]

IDK the creators tend to be some of the worst on the internet.

[@DevilizerHimself]

Here I am, never played a RPG or warhammer game in my life. I don't own a rulebook, I don't have an army. I just build and paint, and put them in a shelf for display. And I still find these videos enjoyable to watch, simply becaase of the way you talk and convey information. And the occasional humour :)

[@michamalinowski8015]

Well technically you don't even have to make up the lore yourself with miniature agnistic rules. If you like the lore, but do not like the rules, why not play Grimdark Future rules but inside the WH40k lore? I play Dragons Rampant in the setting of Middle Earth for instance.

[@TheRealRetroBeard]

Yep I do that, and some people look at me like I am insane.

[@wezab]

Have you seen the rule set by Two fat lardies? (English joke in the name. If you are into cooking shows you might get it). But I believe a rule set they came out with fits your description of agnostic games. Their rule set is about tank combat but fits any level and while intended for WW2 onwards, can be adapted to sci-fi. But the game plays at any scale which is interesting.

[@allgravygames]

Over 20+ years in the hobby and some of the worst times ever all come from stores, events, etc vs hobbying / gaming at a house! The negative experiences almost have nothing to do with "gaming" itself typically except for my first taste of Warhammer Fantasy Battle, where a mid 30s man purposefully cheated against me (when I was 9) just for fun! Once he got called out by the store owner for doing so (multiple times) he said "This isn't a kids game." Loved it!

[@AeonVoom]

A misconception i ran into is the following: Players saying: "I play 40k/AoS because no one plays anything else locally". First this is not to bash 40k/AoS. I play it myself. From my experience there are oodles of guys in a given range that say the exact same. You just have to prod a bit and you'll quickly discover that they said something very similar or the same in the past. Now you lot just need to talk about it and find games you want to try besides 40k or AoS. There are so many nice Tabletops out there worth exploring, that only cost a fraction of what GW charges you. My personal tip: Osprey Blue Books. So many great themes to explore!

[@MarquisLeary34]

I'd like to say that was a myth here, but unfortunately, it really is the case.

[@xJRSUMMERSx]

Although we will occasionally show up to an event in store me and my mrs pretty much only play miniatures games against each other at home

[@ZombieApocalypse09]

"As long as you and your opponent are on the same team, great!" - Uncle Atom 2021

[@johnbruce4004]

As ever interesting and thought provoking, thanks. Most historical rules are mini agnostic, even Bolt Action. Saw 52 Miniatures doing some cool 'agnostic' stuff for Stargrave (which I am intrigued by). There's a lot of life along side the big fella.

[@RoseSailor]

I’ve been on a kick of reading/ watching what Rick Priestley videos and interviews I can find. Listening to him talk, this father and co-creator of some of the biggest systems both mainstream and niche, about when he and his friends get together themselves to play pretend war, just tweaking and designing rules as they play; It very much gets me in the frame of mind as to how I like to play with my toy soldiers. Synergistic, mechanic-heavy rules poured over to be as “balanced” as possible is fine, but not inherently what I’m looking for in a game. I steer away from meta-competition and hyper-optimization personally. I see the thrill of that along with the fun of feeling as you’ve discovered some crazy combo. For me though, the idea hasn’t changed from back when I’d play Ninja Turtles and X-Men with my big brother, or Star Wars vs Beanie Babies with my friends (granted there is less production value with the minis as there is no throwing, submerging in water, freezing, burying or melting of figures..) but it’s still a big game of make believe. Homebrew and Headcanon are my favorite hobby tools. I don’t see the matrix granted, but I’ve been playing something along the lines of Bolt Action 40,000 set in a mix of Rogue Trader and 5th edition era along with adding properties for weapon and armour types (energy and ballistic). When a hiccup arrises we just work it out together. And you know, Just like the relatively recent advent of “you too can paint miniatures!” spread in our KZbin era with a huge rise in new painters (who these days starting off are even more impressive than the standard of my youth!) Just the same I say, “You too can create an imaginary game system with your friends” :D

[@idiotluggage]

My friend started a gaming group (pre COVID) and we played in his basement for a long time before renting a conference room from a hotel every other weekend. I used to play 40k, it's what got me into tabletop miniature games. I got tired of the prices for the models and how the rules worked, so I moved to Warmachine. I stopped playing tabletop games for a while (my friends store closed and I couldn't find another good gaming group). When another friend contacted me about his group I checked it out. They were playing 40k and I didn't want to get back into to it, so they recommended I look at Kill Team. I loved it for the small and quick games. I like that it is a back and forth instead of my side goes then your side goes. I have recently been looking at more of the miniatures agnostic games, because of the rules.

[@gerardsandee1520]

For most RPG's a single book with core rules is about all the hardware you need. Dice rolls can be simulated in a lot of ways (no need to buy dice), character stats can be jotted down on any bit of paper, and maps can be described to the players or sketched on (again) bits of paper. Snacks and drinks, see you local super market. The only other thing needed is not available in any store: imagination. On the other hand, tabletop wargames need a book with core rules, minis and everything you need to paint them, terrain, and a new book of core rules every few years. I love painting minis, but stopped tabletop wargaming in the mid 90's. If/when I get the urge to start again, I'll take my copy of Rogue Trader, and see where I go from there. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and insights, much appreciated.

[@DasVadderr]

Another very common misconception that seems to be around because of GW´s systems: TT Wargaming costs ridiculous amounts of money, especially when you want to join the hobby. Look at pretty much everything made by Warlord Games or other historical stuff. That´s usually really not that expensive. Especially when it comes to the more popular eras like ancient rome, WW II etc., the minis are really interchangeable. You can play Bolt Action with the 1/56 minis sold by Warlord, you can play it with the 1/72 plastic models produced by pretty much every plastic model company ever (BA´s rules make it very easy to implement basically every WW II model, even if it´s not in their army books) and those models are usually really cheap (best deal I´ve seen was a box from Revell with a Tiger and 48 Panzergrendaiere for 15€).The company COBI, a polish manufacturer of LEGO-compatible bricks is specialized on historical military models built with said bricks. They´re more models than toys and not that cheap but they came up with rules for a (quite simple) WW II tabletop wargame for their models and those rules are available for free. If you´re not interested in historical stuff, that´s no problem. There are plenty of games that just don´t require many minis. If you need to buy only smaller amounts of minis this keeps your expenses quite low. Infinity is a good exemple for that. X-Wing´s minis may be quite expensive but you only need a handfull of them and they come already assembled and painted so if that´s the only system you want to play, there´s not even the need for tools, brushes, paints etc.

[@oddrknot4]

I've played all the TCGs of popularity throughout the last 20 years, and just recently got into Warhammer Age of Sigmar in 2019. I find I play outside of stores for three reasons: 1) homes are beer friendly 2) stores close early, 3) comfier seating

[@leiziru9642]

I'm missing Duel Masters cards being in production. Man, all the childhood memories

[@riku7243]

Can confirm, I've amassed a small gaming community of around 9 players of 40k/Killteam, half of which also are into Sigmar/Warcry. We've played many games on my dinning table (I should refer to it as a wartable as only 5% of its use has been dining) and not a single one of us has put a model down at our local gaming stores...

[@ericmiller6511]

I’ve been gaming since 1981, and have played all type of games and systems. I play 95% of games at home. The rest at cons. I have played a handful of games at stores. One of our favorite games is the original car wars (yes I still have original click box and counters) We try new stuff a lot but always go back to our favorites. Hero system, warhammer fantasy battles, fire and fury. And we use the figures we like.

[@mattvucu6706]

I don’t know why I find this so interesting but each point is fascinating and true

[@philknecht3598]

I got into Wargaming because of this channel. I've been game mastering ttrpg's for 30 years. Because of you, I'm fairly confident that I'm responsible for at least 73% of Wargaming sales, and most likely 17% of ttrpg sales. I don't know if I should hate you, or say thank you. So, I'll just say "Hello there."

[@arielsanchez465]

I never play at stores. Our gaming club is just me and two very good friends from my rpg college days.

[@leiziru9642]

Same. I'm actually living in a small town and there are no stores to be played in around for our mini-community of 3 nerds

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

@@leiziru9642 For me having no friends that live anywhere next to me in a smallish city next to a smallish biggish city it's the store all the way. However, I plan on playing with my grandpa, Sister, and mom but not yet... So I'm still that 5%.

[@RodBatten]

I'm a long-time rp gamer ((1981-> ) who recently started picking up rules and models for a couple of ma skirmish games. This is something I'd wanted to do for quite a while but just haven't gotten to it. The thing you said about rp games vs miniatures games is dead on, rp games can be played with some dice, paper, and an inexpensive book or two (I have hundreds of books, but I just read most of them). The RP books generally come with a free PDF, wargame rules (at least the ones I've picked up) have PDFs that cost about the same as the physical book. Most rpgs only feature a handful of minis, although, again, I have collected a massive pile of shame over the past while. So, it seems to me that the initial investment in miniatures, books, and accessories/terrain for my new obsession is greater than the initial outlay for rp gaming. Then the ongoing purchases are proportional to the initial investment. So, it really doesn't surprise me to hear that rpgs only took in $80M vs 4-5 times as much for mini gaming.

[@ochoaE3]

Yugioh was the one game I really got into with friends. I would spend evenings and nights with friends playing this game. We knew a basic understanding of the game, and knew we weren't playing 100% by the real rules. Certainly our way wouldn't fly at tournaments. But it didn't matter to us. We had an endless amount of fun playing our way.

[@KamilMuzyka]

I remember back in the 3rd ed of 40K, Necrons were introduced via chapter approved. We didn't have their minis, but we used some spares or elements from other games (scarabs were represented by blip markers from Space Hulk). When you lack figures, its up to your imagination (same with testing other armies or playing mordheim with 40k minis). And yes, we did play at home, but "homegrown player" was a stigma back in my days (same with homegrown sci-fi fan, you have to be introduced by somebody from a fandom recognized club, or else, you're unwelcome to discuss fanlore).

[@cricketerfrench7501]

No mention of historical miniature games, truly agnostic as to the source of the figures. Also what I like to think of a wargaming, as it simulates war, real war, as fought.

[@charlesentrekin6607]

I started playing many, many, many years ago. My first army was 20mm Russian world war 2, Airfix figures. Then came a long love affair with 15 mm figures, and 1/2400 ships. In all that time I have only been to maybe ten to twelve tournaments. Almost all my games are in clubs or at home. So it doesn't surprise me that the research bears that out.

[@jack-a-lopium]

I would have to admit, but I only recently got into Age of Sigmar... but the current ethos of GW seems pretty emphatically on *FUN,* there is even several mentions in the Core Rule Book of the word 'proxy'; as in, the official stance of 'scary evil empire' Games Workshop is that they are totally cool with people using other models, as well as theirs, to have as much fun as possible. I mean, as a former 'outsider looking in', I was really put off by the stigma of 'scary and hyper-competitive' aspect of the hobby. Pretty much *ALL* of the YT content creators I've seen as well are really focused on fun! And so I took the plunge... totally never would have otherwise.

[@Octhilias]

Great video as always! As an LGS owner, I agree with every point you made here, and would say definitely stay tuned to the sales data from 2020; at least locally 2020 was a VERY good year for minis, (turns out everyone wanted something to do when they were cooped inside all day!) and I wouldn't be shocked to see minis overtaking hobby board games in overall sales.

[@vincentcinerini5632]

Thank you for pointing out that all games are miniature agnostic!!! As broke teens, my friends and I downloaded codexes, and printed off 1-inch grids, that we cut out and wrote on them what models they were. We tried out all different armies and lists, and had a ton of fun without spending a time. Blows me away that so many treat it like heresy.

[@BattleMatt]

In the UK there a lot of games played at clubs, either church halls, community centres, or upstairs rooms in pubs. Traditionally we play in clubs and at home, playing in games shops is fairly new and usually mostly GW games. Also Twitter is far more toxic than Facebook...

[@acheron1872]

Me and my bud been playing kill team at his place for a while, heck we’re gonna be playing cursed city once we get all the minis built. Been playing blood bowl with my bro at home since covid started.

[@mrbushi1062]

The mechanics are exactly why I play Bolt action. The activation dice are a WONDERFUL way to add individual unit initiative in a gun fight. I don't have to worry about being killed turn one 😂

[@DarkPaladin1130]

MTG: 95% of my time played was in store. FNM, Sat 1.5, Sun 1.0, many many pick up games. Back in the before times. 40k: 99.99% was in basements and garages. I found that minature players were more concerned about theft and damage, and preferred a more private setting, myself included. In stores, you always have those who need to pick up the minatures... Just always wondered why a 50.00 model that gets stolen felt more of a loss then a 200.00+ Magic card. I'm not the only one whonfelt that way. Seen it quite a few times with other gamers.

[@smytheplaysgames1106]

By far the majority of games I play are at home. We play a lot (less recently obviously) and a fair range of games. Most of the people in my gaming group play the current edition of 40K so that is what we play most, but also Kill Team, Infinity, Bolt Action. I also like a game at a store as a random pick up game, but its a very small fraction of the games I play (at least now more and more of my friends are getting into/back into the hobby).

[@RodneySloan]

We had a Tyranid Hierophant in one of our games that was played by a plate. I'll never forget my Ork Kommandos going toe to toe with dinnerware. Good times! Can you give us some examples of games with great activation mechanics?

[@SoASeraphim]

If i may give examples: While you have Warhammer Style, where i do my whole turn, then you do yours other games have Rounds split up by turns where every player only activates one unit per turn - A Song of Ice and Fire MiniaturesGame for example. this can even be added by random factor - Star Wars Legion for example has a draw mechanic in what type of unit you may activate - which can be controlled to a certain level through other parts of the game. but basically its switching activations X-Wing the miniatures Game has an Initiative Style activation System, in which faster/better Pilots fly later and shoot earlier Just a few choices

[@tabletopminions]

Two examples: Bolt Action and Star Breach. Both rely on reaching into a bag of dice (one for each of the units on both of the sides) and if my dice is pulled out, I get to activate a unit of my choosing. If your dice is pulled, then you get to activate a unit of your choosing. Some more randomness and reaction (battle isn’t orderly) yet you can still have some strategy. Thanks for watching!

[@rastamann2009]

Epic armageddon has a great activation mechanic. You activate one formation by rolling it’s activation number or better. If you succeed you perform whatever order you want them to do, and then you can choose to retain the initiative and try to activate a second formation, but with a -1 penalty to the activation roll. You can’t activate more than 2 formations in a row, so play passes to the other player, who gets to do the same. If you fail the activation roll for a formation, you don’t get to do what you wanted, but still can give a limited movement order to your formation, or a regroup or fire with a small penalty. You get slightly demoralized by taking a blast marker as well, and then play passes to your opponent. If a formation has blast markers (any number) it gets a -1 modifier to its roll as well. And you declare your orders to the formation before rolling, so there are actions that carry a bonus - for instance, orks get a +2 if they’re charging forward. It’s quite tactical. 40k would benefit immensely from this kind of play sequence

[@marcoherreras6536]

Totally agree with points 1 and 2. I played MTG for a while at the store FNM, and stopped doing it upon realizing it was not fun nor relaxing, but actually stressful and felt like a total waste of leisure time (and that was way before the muzzles and the polycarbonate screens). Now I play only with my kids at home, without following thoroughly the game’s news and releases, which feels extremely more rewarding and fun. Same for rpgs, as we only bought Magissa’s PDF and like 30 d6 in aliexpress, and we might have played several dozens of hours in the last years... As for point 3, the threat of needing many specific miniatures AND dealing with byzantine ever-changing orders of battle lists (or even worse: apps!) has always kept me from playing w40k and Infinity, even kill team or necromunda. I discovered recently grimdark future firefight and it seems the perfect solution to finally play without feeling overwhelmed. We love making our own terrain scenery but now we’ll even probably use it. Very interesting video, thanks for sharing!

[@ErrdilPhalar]

I imagine that first one is heavily dependent on where you live. Most of my city is tiny-ass 2-3 room commie block apartments. I don't know anyone who decided to turn half their home into a warhammer table.

[@story1951]

True. You need a devoted person who is willing to set up a table in their basement. This means keeping a large space free for it. I don't have that so gaming at my home is impossible.

[@huguesvalat3362]

Miniatures agnostic rules : that's why I loved Pulp Alley when I recently discovered it : original system for initiative and interactions, and even if they do offer some minis, I can use all my Mansions of Madmess, Cthulhu Death May Die and others with no problem and that's great ! Plus the rules explain how you can easily adapt it to many other settings.

[@djtoddpharris9565]

I may go to a store to occasionally watch a game in action (if there happens to be one going on), but I primarily play at home with the wife, and now with COVID restrictions lifting my brother and nephew game with me.

[@TheIronicRaven]

Your point about miniatures agnostic reminds me of how I got into wh40k. My friend had an army of chaos space marines, and I had cut out pieces of paper. My first probably 4 or 5 games was me using paper to play on a carpeted floor. Loved the game so much that I started buying the models

[@onkelgroen]

Aww, shucks! You're awesome too, Uncle Atom. :)

[@davedogge2280]

I'm very easy going and fairly thick skinned so I will even go to stores for random games of Warhammer. Even if it's "that guy" and a toxic player, it's still a game but usually it's good, decent people who want to play and that's better sometimes than 'friends' who don't buy anything and are not really that interested in the game and don't make the effort to even read the rules.

[@mikolajwitkowski8093]

Sounds like you simply need different friends.

[@davedogge2280]

@@mikolajwitkowski8093 the problem is that it's just guys that pay monthly something like $14 (including me) to be in a gaming club, turn up, expect you to prepare for them, teach them the rules, provide all the materials and entertainment for them as if you were a cinema. 3 of them for 4 hours and often some of them turn up an hour late and you get 15 minutes of play for including journey time and preparation time 6+ hours spent for that 15-20 minutes of game time for yourself. So you can imagine, I am having second thoughts about continuing, I even take any excuse now to not attend so go figure :(

[@rastamann2009]

You need to find better friends. Yours are damaged

[@stormisuedonym4599]

@@davedogge2280 ... Why would you subject yourself to that? I've scrapped D&D games for players acting like that, and I wasn't paying for the privilege.

[@davedogge2280]

@@stormisuedonym4599 yeah, I'm not tolerating it. I got some lazy so called friends that have expected me to turn up with gaming materials, explain the rules to them that they haven't bothered to read, set everything up and run off at the end making excuses stating that they cannot help me store all gaming components away in the box etc and then when I get fed up and make excuses to not attend the club I get WhatsApp messages in groups stating that I quote : " (referring to me) I am not "useful" for anything and that I don't serve any purpose". It's almost as if you are there to provide entertainment for THEM like you are a cinema or something and it's just stressful and frustrating so I don't go anymore or make every excuse under the sun until they get the message. I would rather play Oblivion on PC than attend those sorts of games with people who have zero appreciation and respect for you. I'll never forget one little lazy s-crote in my group actually said to me "you buy the Warhammer armies, you build them, you paint them, you buy the rule books and we will play with both armies and then we will see if we like them." .. he wasn't even joking. In a separate incident he said .."What you going to do if you buy, build paint and buy stuff for Warhammer and we don't like it." ... I think he thought that he and his peers were the only friends I had and the only guys who play WH40K in Madrid, Spain .. and this is coming from a 46 year old .. a grown man talking like a child to me. I'm happy I moved away from that group. But I've noticed that in Spain somewhat and that is if you are kind to people and generous some regard you as 'something beneath them', like you are showing some kind of weakness. It's weird. In any case you have limited time and life and resources and it's just not worth it spending time with people like that. Lesson learnt !

[@honestindomitus1342]

The man is a champion! I do wonder where that ICV2 report gets it’s data, though. It’d be interesting to do a little digging to find out.

[@MichaelAlthauser]

From what I understand it's from store owners sharing their sales numbers for various product lines.

[@schlaghappy]

"...repeatedly, which is to say over and over again." Fantastic!

[@MrSJPowell]

I'm not sure if board games will slip for last years purchases. After all, when people went into lockdown, everyone wanted board games. All of the board games. Any board game. Also, it totally makes sense that RPGs don't have the most sales. I played for years with a few copies of the books (most of which were bootleg) and candy for minis. Eventually I realized that buying years of candy was actually more expensive than minis, and made the switch.

[@markchristy9704]

I very much appreciate your generally laid back approach to gaming. It's refreshing to see/hear that attitude expressed that it's really about finding a way to play that is fun for you and it really doesn't matter what's going on from the industry perspective. Thanks for encouraging those of us who are casual gamers. Cheers!

[@gratuitouslurking8610]

Honestly I'd love to do sologames at home more. Hopefully when I get a Killteam starter somewhere in the near future I'll have that dealt with for all the weird little games I play.

[@cordial001]

Can't wait to see what the super secret project actually is!

[@tommloye4626]

He’s actually in the process of taking over the worlds entire fez production and distribution market. We will all be wearing them in the next 3 months. It will be truly spectacular!!

[@tabletopminions]

All will be revealed next week. Thanks for watching!

[@Aisaaax]

I think card games sell so well and are so popular because they are portable and fast. You can carry your deck everywhere with you, and you can play a match in 10 minutes on a lunch break. Board games are next on that spectrum. They are still pretty portable and quick to set up. You can take them to your friends house in a bag. And the session length is 30-60 minutes most of the time. Both Warhammer and D&D require planning your day around it. The session is several hours. D&D is portable, yes, but you also need to have several people that can invest dozens of hours over multiple sessions. It's a pretty high bar to pass.

[@diomedspartan473]

We had a group of us that played 40k in iraq using nuts and bolts and improv things from our motorpool.

[@MrBizteck]

Lol love it !

[@Truffles069]

Yes! We did something similar

[@clipperrn]

Haircut looks good Uncle Atom.

[@BB-pn2qv]

Completely agree the activation aspect, and same reason I like kill team as well… much more interesting and ocmpact

[@Stutzkraft]

Glad to see a secret cabal t-shirt! They along with you have helped me, a board gamer, get into miniatures and painting.

[@chromedog68]

You're right about RPGs and "just not needing to buy as much stuff". Sure, there are the outliers who buy ALL of the books for "their" game, but not all of us do this, and even then, that's 1 person in the group of usually around 4-5. Compared to miniatures players who will EACH own at least one army, a faction/army books (for each), other expansion rules in addition to the rulebook.

[@nerdfatha]

My Sons of Behemat army for AOS is totally 3rd party and kitbashed minis. I would love an official Mega Gargant, but I built a whole 2000 pt army for less than half the cost of 1 of those models. I know I'll never play in an official store, but playing kitchen table games with my buddies is plenty fun for me.

[@plaidpvcpipe3792]

Whenever I play in a store I play like I do at home. With people I'm friends with and already know. We often make up silly rules. Once we even played a Dawn of War (the video game) style warhammer game. We had all access to all the terrain since nobody else was there. My army (imperial guard) was OP since I could keep getting men. It was a lot of fun, though.

[@davidhardstaff8110]

Me and my sons still play 3rd edition and with loads of proxy models. Its about fun folks.

[@victormata7665]

I'm in a club of miniature war gaming, we never play when we are at the store, we just chat or flex our army we brought to "play". When we want to actually play a game we go to someone's house

[@dralasitevrusk903]

That's great if you have a community of folks who have the space at their houses to do that. Very awesome thing to have.

[@davidhoward1963]

I like the way you talk, it makes things easy for us to understand. Thank you

[@AndrewBeisel]

Funny thing about this, I've bought $500 worth of Warmachine and Hordes minis over the last year, but it's to run an Iron Kingdoms 5E RPG. I wonder how much crossover like that happens

[@MGPW]

Back when I attended gaming conventions in the beforetimes (primarily has a roleplayer), there was basically a 50-50 roleplaying-wargaming split, with a few tables for some board games and possibly CCGs. And the fact is, the "big name" in RPGs is still D&D, Hasbro barely cares about it (indeed, currently it's more correct to say they tolerate it, ideally in favour of tie-ins, licensing to other stuff and pushing people towards Magic), letting the D&D team sit there doing whatever it is they're doing (apparently not making content?) Basically for the reason you said - it doesn't sell as much "stuff" per player.

[@TheProteanGeek]

For me when I was am active player in 3rd Edition 40k I only ever played in store. Never could play at home because of the lack of appropriate table and terrain... Also close enough friends to actually bring to my place. This said. These days I would prefer to have people come to my place. I say this as a person who has spent almost a decade helping build a club full of game players who meet weekly in a FLGS. I do personally do the lot board games, RPGs, and probably will get back into Wargames kinda. As someone who crosses genres I have a lot of miniatures I can use from a lot of sources.

[@bruced648]

point #3 reminds me of a great game company called "cheapass games". they produced the rules and cards, if the game needs them. but the company assumes you have dice and playing pieces. cut down on cost and size considerably.

[@harkejuice]

My LGS actually is a D&D store primarily however, they are kept afloat by Warhammer 40k / AOS. Alot of them play D&D AND other CCG as well. You really can't make decent money off CCG games unless you mark up, which is kind of a shitty thing to do when supplies are low.

[@davydatwood3158]

The segment on where people play had me thinking about my own habits, and I do find it depends on both the era and the game. I haven't played 40K since 3rd edition, but I have *never* played 40K in a store, because at the time that mostly meant playing in the Games Workshop stores hereabouts, and their painting requirements were (at the time, anyway) *extremely* rigid. Since none of us had all of our models done to that standard, we just never got in the habit of meeting at stores. I did play a lot of Gear Krieg in a store, but that was a store my friend was running and I was trying to both hang out with my friend and help support the store by having cool looking things happening there. I'd say GK ends up being about 50-50, with almost all of my "in a home" games played with a single, specific opponent. X-Wing 1st Edition I played almost entirely in stores. Two different local stores would have X-Wing days and one store especially was fairly central. There was also a fairly large group of people involved in the game. So it was a great way to hang out with folks you didn't normally see and play two or three matches against a variety of opponents. My favourite minis game, Stargrunt II, I've never played in a store. Partly because it's minis-agnostic so the stores don't push it; partly because it doesn't have a big following here so I only play it when I talk someone into playing with me. And the game I'm most likely to play these days, Song of Blades and Heroes, I've also only played in homes (or twice at a con), for reasons not that dissimilar to Stargrunt. Anyway, very interesting things to think about!

[@NexAura1]

90% of my games, before covid, were played at my house or a buddies. I like to play over some beers and having fun. Ive played at my FLGS and thats been great because i got involved in the local community, which is heavily competitive. Luckily since covid has struck my close friends and i can play at my house.

[@Rathammergames]

Bottom line: Your game, your minis, your rules! Have fun!!

[@kaptainskarlett9927]

I agree that the cost of minis vs. rpg is vastly different. I paid $200 for two Star Wars Legion core sets (before the Clone Wars set came out) whereas I spent less than $30 for the Basic Fantasy Role-Playing Game handbook, Field Guide, Equipment Emporium and first Adventure Anthology books plus two sets of dice. You could spend even less for BFRPG because the entire collection is a free .pdf download.

[@Eruidraith]

Our local scene is kinda different from this... at least, with non-historical games! It's mostly warhammer 40k and AOS, with a bunch of Legion players and a few bolt action players. Mostly people play at the store, because the store has beer and snacks and everyone donated tons of terrain. We also happen to have several dedicated tourney grinders (and before covid had a whole platoon of MTG tournament grinders). I can absolutely believe that is not the norm!

[@SoASeraphim]

it probably depends on the region you play in and the type of game you play. Looking at the living situations around me - getting a full sized Legion or Song of Ice and Fire game in just isnt possible in your average home X-Wing, MCP or Kill-Team on the other hand is a lot easier, but multiple games simultaneous is again hard to setup My Gaminggroup also prefers FLGS - only a few of us actually have a hobby area big enough to get one full size game in, let alone multiple at the same time. but as you said - easy to see, that this might not be the norm (but would be interesting to actually see a survey on over different regions and gamesystems)

[@failfurby]

I used to play Anima Tactics in between weeks where I played 40k. I miss that game :( It died and no one local plays it anymore :(

[@Nevets1073]

I own so many of those models considering I've never once played it.

[@coolminecraft1457]

I play a version of poor hammer where the table is really the carpet, the “terrain” has “Assasins creed”, “MW3”, “Battlefront”, “BF4”, ect, and the rules are whatever what’s in the books and you can play anything that has rules.

[@pappajudas9267]

I hadn't thought much about the second two misconceptions. But from the very first Squad I built I said to myself I'm probably never playing in a tournament I can do what I want with these and swapped all their heads out. In fact I don't know if I've made a single unit where I haven't put something together my own way whether by mistake or intentionally. I doubt I've swapped enough pieces to make them ineligible for store or tournament play but I don't care.

[@NonSleeper_Occasional_Thinker]

miniatures agnostic, I like "One Page Rules" for things like 40k and Kill Team and their Sigmar equivalents, easy, all army books and its all free, and yes we do tend to buy minis from the big companies as well as small but love the game more as its updated regularly and no fees.

[@tinywargamer3863]

So I've been playing tabletop games for the last ...like 20 years (granted I got a few years break -got married, got a daughter), and I've never -not a single time -played @ any kind of game-club or a store.

[@maniacbanana9431]

my entire rpg group has maybe spent $10 between them over 2 years. Me, the dm on the other hand...

[@Rhidcully]

Exactly! I do have 10 different systems, some with supplements. I have the terrain and the Minis. They have dice. Sometimes. Plus I am a Wargamer...

[@Redlady1917]

@@Rhidcully I cannot recall a time when my spending money was not getting new systems or wargames. Joy is misery.

[@johnashley-smith4987]

I only played in a store once back in the mid nineties , 40k second edition. It was fine, and in spite of my opponent being a bit of dweeb. But ever since, games I've played have always been at someone's home where we can "let it all hang out" ie: drink alcohol, smoke etc. As for the " miniatures agnostic" thing...when I started gaming in the late 70s, everything was " miniatures agnostic". You used whatever worked and your group would accept. Even Rogue Trader, implied you could use whatever you had in your collection, though they produced their own range of models designed for the game. If you play mainly in stores I can understand the frustration one might feel being " forced" play a certain way, or include certain units, in order to conform to the " meta" simply to maintain competitiveness. To me that sucks a lot of fun out of what really should be a relaxing escape from life's daily frustrations.... Anyway...cool topic that we could discuss endlessly... Thanks Atom!

[@lt.branwulfram4794]

The only aspect of 40k that is quote unquote ‘miniature agnostic’ is just one character. He has rules but he doesn’t have a mini. His datasheet doesn’t even specify the size of his base. His name is Lias Issodon, Chapter Master of the Raptors, a Raven Guard successor chapter in camo colours.

[@caseyfrechette]

Glad to hear you still jam X-wing, 2nd edition killed what had been the most unifying mini game in my small community. Who was going to buy all those rules updates!? *Clears throat, glances at stack of GW supplements*

[@rivuns6482]

At 8min30, I noticed your shirt! I love The Secret Cabal! Aside from that I love you and your content as well! From someone new to the hobby, thank you Uncle Atom for all your hard work!

[@gregzuvich1195]

Uncle Atom, Have you tried doing alternating unit activations for 40k instead of alternating side activations? Alternating units for 40k works really well. Adjusting the "Fight Phase" for alternating units is pretty easy, just take into account rules like Set For Charge or Counterattack. The other phases of game turns already work with alternating unit activations with no adjustments needed. Give it a try, you might like it. My buddies and I play 40k this way at home, have lots of fun with it.

[@wosmahl]

As a long time (15+ yrs) magic the gathering player, I could count the number of games I played at my or someone elses home on fingers of my hands. But yeah it makes sense, the marketing of wotc is shifted towards more casual crowd which is maybe 90% of the players. I just wanted to thank you for your videos, very entertaining. Also I tried to get into 40k years back but did not work out because there was no local community and I was lazy fuck to try to start it. Im now actually thinking dropping mtg and get into killteam because I kinda liked the paining stuff

[@FogOfGore]

Wow, never thought that only 5% play in stores and I bet that out of those 5% they still play more games at home than in the stores! Very cool misconception debunked, thanks.