Throw a Nickel on the Grass

The famous DoD film shown to fighter pilots on the tactical exploitation of the MiG-21 via project HAVE DOUGHNUT. This important program ran at Groom Lake in the late 1960's and was a forerunner of Constant Peg and Red Flag.

[@PeteDriver530]

gotta tell ya, I really enjoyed watching this! my Dad served 6 years in the USAF as crew chief on the F-106 then the F-4 during his 2 tours in Viet Nam. He joined the Kansas ANG shortly after working on the F-105 and the F-4 again before becoming a QA inspector around the time the 184th transitioned to the F-16 until he retired. I had heard the "throw a nickel" phrase from him numerous times, but I wasn't aware that it was a song :) loved all the footage, especially at the beginning with the Phantom taking off and the Thud with its hard light burner, good memories. thank you!

[@JSFGuy]

What was his name? I joined The jayhawks in 1988.

[@PeteDriver530]

@@JSFGuy John Wendinger, he retired in '94

[@JSFGuy]

@@PeteDriver530 Don't quite recall that name, I was flight line maintenance crew chief at the time.

[@michaelwhite3615]

I lived next door to a Thud pilot. He was the pilot that had a hydraulic failure in the Thud on a training mission, then brought the bent bird back only to have to eject just before the runway. The abandoned jet hit a car crossing its path as it pass on the north side of the runway at McConnell AFB.

[@karlchilders5420]

You should hear some of the Fighter Pilot songs we used to sing. One, "O'Leary's Balls" was a great one. Not G-rated though, so of course they don't sing it at the O-club these days. We used to sing about good looking women and fighting in combat. I guess both of those are forbidden these days, since we (a) can't seem to figure out what a "woman" is anymore and (b) the closest most people get to combat these days is an argument with the barista at Starbucks... :|

[@jake8074]

Same here, my dad was at Udorn, 70/71. F-4 crew chief as well as crash recovery. Best to you and yours, and God Bless those that served in the Nam!!

[@ailouros6669]

Admiral Tom Cassidy would later appear as the Admiral in the graduation ceremony in the movie TOP GUN!

[@mikeholland1031]

Bad movie

[@carlparlatore294]

When I was stationed at Nellis AFB in the early 1980's, flying F-16s, my Sq flew against these aircraft - back then we couldn't talk about what we were doing to anyone outside the pilots that were briefed into the program - it was some of the best Air-To-Air training I ever had - now this shows up on KZbin - I guess it's no longer SECRET

[@tacitblue1973]

You're referring to the Constant Peg encounters based out of TTR, this program was 10 years earlier based at Groom.

[@carlparlatore294]

@@tacitblue1973 Jason - now that you mention CP you are correct - must have killed too many brain cells in the last 40+ years

[@MaciusSzwed]

The only thing still secret are alien craft and dead aliens stored in Utah, Nevada and other bases.

[@dave.of.the.forrest]

Imagine being the first 'murican guy to strap that on and take it for a spin. Here's how they got the one in this video: (via Wikipedia) Have Doughnut was the name of a Defense Intelligence Agency project whose purpose was to evaluate and exploit a MiG-21 "Fishbed-E" that the United States Air Force acquired in 1967 from Israel. Israel acquired the aircraft as the result of its Operation Diamond when, on August 16, 1966, Iraqi Air Force pilot Capt. Munir Redfa, in a defection pre-arranged by the Israeli Mossad intelligence agency, flew it to Israel during a training flight.

[@oldgoat142]

There is an excellent episode on the series Dogfights/ Dogfights of the Middle East which explains this event.

[@s.marcus3669]

Dave, it's kind of important to note that Capt. Redfa was a Christian (Chaldean Catholic) living in a Muslim society and as such was a persecuted minority.

[@chaaazgould4828]

Old ‘Nam Recon Rat ‘66-‘67 here. If I ever run into any of the pilots who served over there from any year, he will never need to buy a drink.

[@edwardpate6128]

Wow! Some amazing footage! What is amazing is that MiG-21's are still being flown in combat today!

[@siggifreud812]

"What is amazing is that MiG-21's are still being flown in combat today"; maybe, but not for very long😬

[@LordNinja109]

China started production of a trainer/light combat aircraft based off of the MiG-21 in 2013, it's interesting to see when this basic design will finally stop seeing combat.

[@usaturnuranus]

These guys were fighting a vicious air war back then. The Soviet aircraft were damned capable fighters, the Americans had recently learned some terrible lessons with the F4 Phantoms that had NO onboard guns for dogfighting (as the US assumed air to air missiles would eliminate the need for close-in defensive shooting). Those were some seriously brave souls doing air combat in Vietnam!

[@kblackav8or]

The Phantom was not designed for that specifically, it was designed to shoot down Soviet Bombers beyond visual range with Sparrow Missiles. The Crusader was the fighter with the gun. The Navy never put a gun on it and did alright.

[@canweshoot]

Very interesting for any fighter pilots, especially from the era. I suspect many already know this, but this project was conducted at Groom Lake/Area 51. You can find plenty of reading on the program. TD Barnes is a particularly good resource due to his experience there.

[@tacitblue1973]

Yeah, the flight article was borrowed from the Israelis who'd run an intelligence op to lure an Iraqi pilot with plane to Israel. The MiG-21 was even photographed with Sean Connery wearing the Star of David before it's HAVE DOUGHNUT loan to the US. I do also own a copy of TD's "CIA Station D: Area 51", his nearly 600 page hardcover on the history of The Area.

[@canweshoot]

@@tacitblue1973 Fascinating times they were! I'm half a generation behind this film. A decade later we were flying Red Flag, and most of us learning about "the box" for the first time..by then having considerably more than the Mig-21 there. At the time, we had a German pilot in our unit. The rules were that we U.S. pilots could make an engine critical emergency divert there (oil pressure, etc.). We were advised that should that occur we would be debriefed, then sent home. Foreign pilots were not permitted to divert there under any circumstances. They were told to prepare to eject if they could not make it to Indian Springs or Nellis. If any of us strayed into the box, we would be debriefed then sent home. A weapons officer from each squadron was sent there TDY in that '79/'80 time frame to fly against the various aircraft, then bring back what they learned to be shared with the home drome pilots...classified Secret NOFRN, of course. The visiting units would deploy to Nellis for the TDY, and launch/recover from there IIRC, meeting in the airspace in the box. HOW they shared it was not as first-person, though. It was shared by briefing from published classified tactics pubs gleaned from the exploitation. Each pilot could certainly, though, conduct training missions using what they had learned. They were very tight-lipped about anything first-person...admirably. Of course, this was also very sensitive time for the F-117 development there. Cheers.

[@TeddyBear-ii4yc]

@@tacitblue1973 Did they ground the UFOs during it?

[@joanofarc1338]

We never, ever called it Area 51, it was and still is ‘Dream Land”

[@tacitblue1973]

@@joanofarc1338 A couple old interviews from pilots I've read just called it "Groom" or "The Box"

[@eddiesvlogs9085]

Mig-21 is one of the most successful fighter aircraft ever built.

[@FN_FAL_4_ever]

24:34 that’s a trip seeing an A-6 on a MiG-21’s tail

[@dave.of.the.forrest]

They'd have to throw rocks at it though. No guns and rarely if ever carried air to air missiles. (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Might be effective as a scare tactic against an inexperienced enemy though and make him break for home.

[@tonyunderwood9678]

@@dave.of.the.forrest Gun pod? ;) A-6's did all sorts of stuff in 'Nam. Hey if it was good enough for an F-4...?

[@stevepagel9110]

Hadn't seen this since RTU at Davis Monthan AZ in early 70s.

[@joanofarc1338]

Yikes‼️ how in the world did ya get a hold of this film. I remember seeing this film as a student at the USAF Fighter Weapons School. At that time it was classified Secret No Forn. I distinctly remember these guys commenting on “duck buzz”….

[@tacitblue1973]

The National Archives released it in October. catalog.archives.gov/id/271815859

[@joanofarc1338]

@@tacitblue1973 Thanks, by the way I was in no way implying that you had posted something classified, I saw at the beginning that it had been declassified. The film brought back memories that I thought were long gone.

[@tacitblue1973]

@@joanofarc1338 I've known of it for years, I was just as surprised as anybody that it's available publically. It's an important historical document.

[@mithrandir1313]

prolly most folks don't realize what a Paragon of Defense that Commander Cassidy was!!

[@j.santiago7022]

Historic! Thank you for sharing.

[@GettingToHeaven]

Loved your video. Great job!

[@tacitblue1973]

Don't look at me, thank the archives for releasing it late last year. I'm just enjoying a little slice of history like everyone else

[@naoakiooishi6823]

Amazing! This was a top secret information showing the "Constant Peg"

[@tacitblue1973]

This was before Constant Peg. Tonopah Test Range air strip was just a runway with a turnaround at one end with no hangars at all at this time.

[@RedBravo65]

Very, very interesting. Thanks for sharing this. Why do I now have the urge to fly the DCS Mig-21bis module? 🤔

[@Lightning_Mike]

23:18 I never realized just how small the wings on the Flying Coffin were... Man, oh, man, I thought the MiG-21's were tiny, but wow!

[@tacitblue1973]

Yeah, the Zipper was a slash and dash type, not something that you'd think would get into a turning fight.

[@tacitblue1973]

@@dukeford8893 I'm not surprised, the wing loading of the later blocks of Vipers is getting up there at GTOW especially with the conformal tanks.

[@earlwyss520]

Oh yeah, during my first tour in Turkey (1991-92), I was assigned to a TAF base (Balikesir AB), and the Turks were still flying tge F-104. That thing turned so badly it was embarrassing when a GANG unit flying F-15s came in TDY. Seemed that the F-15 could do two complete circles inside of the F-104s turn circumference.

[@R.U.1.2.]

Excellent film on Vietnam-era jets. The Mig-21 caused the USAF a world of hurt when it was encountered.

[@tacitblue1973]

It was compounded by poor training in dogfighting as the so called missile age made it "obsolete" plus the average US fighter were oversized and not particularly good at pulling g. The F-8 Crusader was a notable exception. Early F-4 models without leading edge slats were especially vulnerable given the telltale J79 smoke trails which made them stand out for miles. The lessons of Have Doughnut and Have Ferry (MiG-17 Fresco) rolled into the later Constant Peg and using dissimilar air combat training squadrons which used contemporary US aircraft which mimicked the size and maneuverability of the Soviet Bloc MiG aircraft in programs like Top Gun and Red Flag turned around the dismal losses to rough parity. Add in the teen series fighters which placed a much higher emphasis on visibility, higher thrust and lower wing loading and that was a big leap in capability both individually and collectively. But the bottom line was that training became much better, how to extract what you could from your machine while exploiting the weaknesses of the opposing pilot-aircraft combination.

[@uncletiggermclaren7592]

Kilometers, Meters, . . . they must have had a translator sitting in their lap as they flew !. I am assuming that this blunt, pragmatic, honest sort of official appraisal, warts and all, wasn't done in the USSR. Reading a memoir by a test pilots from the soviet airforce, they shouted at him when he gave them evaluations they didn't think were respectful.

[@moss8448]

my tour in `67 the fly boys lived damn good. some died but lived good doing it. they did show how to look good doing it

[@Lightning_Mike]

33:21 I have _never_ expected _that_ kind of cliffhanger in an instructional video

[@colinsmith8584]

That was awesome thanks!

[@elvisischrist]

Very sweet video.

[@goobfilmcast4239]

These guys seem very technical and dry.....but....Dang ! They was flying some killer jets for their time and got to play tag with a frontline Soviet Mach 2 Fighter! NOTHING Dry about that. Wartime pilots and engineers started writing the book for what matured into Red Flag...cool.

[@erictaylor5462]

I saw a MiG-21 at the airport, close enough to touch it. My friend was inside the engine bay working on it. I didn't get to fly it though.

[@talon0863]

The moral of the story is: watch your six, 30mm cannon onboard.

[@cheesenoodles8316]

Excellent...

[@jimeditorial]

Early MiG 21s were beautiful aircraft

[@tacitblue1973]

Over 11000 built. They were practically everywhere that wasn't Western bloc.

[@thomaskositzki9424]

The two test pilots didn't at all feel uncomfortable in front of a camera team. XD

[@tacitblue1973]

They're senior flight officers who'd had plenty of experience with their trade raising nuggets, and the test pilot schools aren't known for graduating wallflowers.

[@68pishta68]

@33:35...Groom Lake? Shhhh....!

[@hokehinson5987]

Fishbed had Nato trembling... It comes down to pilot training and good eyes...paraphrasing a quote: whoever sees first, ... gets thar furstest with the mostest!

[@earlwyss520]

So did the MiG-25, until the US got ahold of one, and realized it was worse that our "Century Series" interceptors (F-101, F-102, F-104, & F-106).

[@tanks1945]

The movie was made in 1968. Did we get the Mig-21 from the Israeli Air Force after the 1967 Six Day War?

[@tacitblue1973]

No, it was Iraqi, a Mossad operation snagged a defecting pilot and he almost dry sticked it.

[@oceanhome2023]

I am surprised that the MiG has almost no smoke out of the engine especially compared to the smoke that comes from The F4

[@tacitblue1973]

Tumansky did a good job there. The later MiG-29 engines were made by Klimov and smoked as bad as the J79.

[@MaciusSzwed]

Have you guys ever seen a Mig-28 this low?

[@fredkruse9444]

In layman's terms, what is the "Q limit"?

[@BK-ju6rb]

maximum aerodynamic pressure

[@fredkruse9444]

@@BK-ju6rb Does the plane slow down or stall if you try to exceed it?

[@BK-ju6rb]

@@fredkruse9444 no. airplane pieces start coming off. that's why they keep saying to get the mig-21 down to low altitude; if it tries to go fast down low it will overstress the airframe.

[@fredkruse9444]

@@BK-ju6rb Thx

[@badlt5897]

Where is the MiG-29 and Su-27 videos from the 90s?

[@dorovlad]

дуже цікаве відео. Особливо цікаве тим, що в ньому показують пілотів часів війни у В"єтнамі. І їх думка про міг-21. я й думки немав, що американські пілоти так високо оцінюють міг-21. Зараз, в наші часи, таких гарних відгуків про міг-29 від американських пілотів не почуєш...я розумію по якій причині. так, американські літаки що тоді, що зараз були кращі за радянські. Але щоб так серйозно оцінити міг-21?!!для мене дивно це чути, тому що комуністи відставали в технічному плані від США

[@anthonyiocca5683]

There are now women at the controls…

[@dorovlad]

@@anthonyiocca5683 and why are women here? and I have no prejudice against women. if a woman is an excellent pilot, what difference does it make?

[@anthonyiocca5683]

@@dorovlad women shouldn’t be fighting, no matter how well they seem…

[@dorovlad]

​@@anthonyiocca5683 IT'S THEIR CHOICE.

[@alankjosness2093]

Do I have to believe that the DoD was adding fake explosion soundtracks to their film? Then the boom occurs simultaneously with the flash. That's silly and distracting.

[@tacitblue1973]

Sure brings home the immediacy of the threat doesn't it? I'm sure most soldiers, both mudborne and airborne would like the sound quite removed from the flash. It's like lightning, see flash, count the seconds and easily figure out how far. Having heard basically a simultaneous flash and crack gets your attention quickly.

[@detritus1976]

99% sure none of the gun/strike camera film systems had sound. WAS kind of off putting that the gun sounds on those MIG-17 reels were poorly or incorrectly timed making it seem that the US pilots had had incompetent gunnery training (You gain at least some lead the target before firing). even A-4 and A-7 pilots got SOME A2A gunnery training.

[@caphaigler9834]

nice ascot…

[@Simo-nk1oq]

57th FWW

[@gorflunk]

It's a dickey!

[@thekinginyellow1744]

@@gorflunk No, it's an ascot. see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascot_tie#Military_use

[@89volvowithlazers]

what is remarkable is the seemingly failure to advance tech wise of russian air capability in Ukraine. Amazing fall off clearly US Air capability constantly is thinking about threat analysis - the only way to put it, me thinks the Chinese can only imagine threats having not flown or fought with assets since Vietnam in the late 70's. Clearly russian threat analysis is weak. Weird world we live in indeed

[@maestherc]

Properly piloted, the ancient MiG-21 would have the combat edge on the porky and mediocre F-35. I know that sounds outrageous, but apparently it’s very true. The F-35 is a 24K gold-plated turkey, a high-tech dud. Very sad….

[@104thDIVTimberwolf]

"Apparently true," but not actually true. Of 890 F-35s built, 4 have been lost to crashes, 2 to pilot error, including the Most recent Navy loss, which was a ramp strike, attempting to get aboard a carrier. The Marines have lost 2 and the Air Force has lost 1. Did they go over budget and run late? Yes, but that was Congress's fault, not the aircraft's or the manufacturer. The requirements and mission for the airframe were changed almost quarterly through the development of the type, nearly doubling its weight. There have been software and radar issues, but that's not a surprise, considering the fact that the Battle Penguin, in spite of what its detractors claim, is one of the two most cutting edge fighters ever fielded by any country. It is not as capable as an Air superiority platform as an F-22, but it is orders of magnitude more capable for every other mission. "But the F-35 is subsonic!" No. It's not. All variants of the Lighting II are supersonic and capable of supercruise. Navy and Marine Corps F-35s are operationally limited to reduce possible structural damage from sustained supersonic flight. This is a peace time only restriction and the issue is not considered severe or probable enough to justify modifications. The Air Force's F-35A has no such restriction. The United States has a history of overdeveloping and initially overpaying for combat aircraft and then getting more than our money's worth out of them. The F-15, the greatest fighter in aviation history (104:0 kill ratio!), has been in production for 51 years. The F-16 (76:1), for 46 years.

[@heyidiot]

_"Doughnuts. Is there anything they CAN'T do?"_