Tier-Ranking all Factions in Heroes of Might and Magic II

[@croatiahrvatska7402]

S - Necromancer I Main Necromancer on any map I can and their use of skeletons is okay but more importantly I think their mid game is unmatched. Vampire lords in mid game is probably the best unit in the game and I don’t think I’ve ever lost while defending my castle specifically because of zombies and mummies. Bone dragons against barbarians Knights and Wizards can sometimes be too OP unless wizards have a lot of titans. My favourite faction by far A - Warlocks Pretty self explanatory I don’t think I need to say anything here.. DRAGONS! B - Wizards What puts them down for me is how expensive everything is and just how annoying it can be to get a good army especially when playing against someone aggressive and good in the early game. Their units are amazing but it drives me nuts when I see just how much resources I have to spend on almost every building or upgrade. C - Sorceress I love their units and I think a lot of people underestimate them. Sprites can be amazing and very useful imo; Dwarves are almost unstoppable against wizards and warlocks early game - mid game. Druids are one of the best ranged units in the game and phoenix being the fastest is just another bonus. What puts them down for me is how squishy their army is and navigation because even on a map with loads of water I don’t go for navigation on any other faction there is no point from my experience. And their army as good as it is it doesn’t match Necromancer Wizards or Warlocks. D - Barbarians I know that the attack skill is probably OP but I don’t enjoy using Barbarians on a lot of maps where on some maps I think they’re the best especially because of pathfinding. But I think their army is just not that good. Early game I think their awful, mid game is probably their strongest imo and late game with their tier 6 units are just meh. Cyclops are probably my least favourite tier 6 unit tbh. And starting without a spell book and having a really weak magic is also a minus in my book F - Knights I actually have fun playing with Knights but I just think I’m every regard they are the weakest. Apart from defensive skills but their ability to attack castles is by far the worst. Yeah ballistics makes it a little easier but no flying units and only 1 ranged unit is not good enough. Peasants are the worst unit in the game and Pikemen and Swordsmen just don’t compare to any other mid game imo I think they’re awful. I do think if you play aggressive you can get tier 6 units very quickly and easily and I think it’s very easy to win early battles and when going against Necromancers Wizards or Sorceress they do okay in the early game but mid game it’s done deal for Knights. Might as well just forfeit if you’re playing multiplayer or against your friends. This is just my opinion I have played this game since practically my 4th birthday. It was my father favourite game back in the day and this game means a lot to us in our family as we played together and learned everything about this game together. Since then I have found friends and other people to play with and I regularly every year return to this game and play for a month or 2 daily. I also play heroes 3 and 4 but nothing compares to me to this game because of sentimental meaning and background and themes and the memories. Btw My father loves the Warlocks the most and then the Wizards and Barbarians. He doesn’t usually like Necromancers or Knights but he has some likeness for Sorceress probably because his favourite mythological creatures are Unicorns and Elf’s lol

[@brianbleakley4679]

Sorceress and Knight are S tier just because the castle screen matches the grass terrain.

[@winoodlesnoodles1984]

LOL!!!! Can't fault that logic. :)

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

omg HAHAHAHA amazing reasoning. WHAT HAVE I DONE!?!?!?!?

[@timmietimmins3780]

I think you massively underestimate sorceress. They combine with other factions very well, as so much of their value is tied up in 3 units (phoenix, druid, elf). They are quite cost effective early, as you really have no reason to ever hire a dwarf. (or for that matter, build a cottage). This saves a lot of money, as you don't have to pay for the building, but also, if you are going to lose your castle, you have no reason to buy out all your useless monsters, as they don't exist because you never built a stupid cottage. I feel it's important to put this in the context of how the game actually plays. because you will just never have the money to buy all the monsters, the peak of "how good is your best stack" matters a lot more than "how good is your worst stack". And "how well does your faction play with others" is very important. Sorceress is probably the single best, at that, as she can show up with low tier monsters which creep very well, and add major value to all the factions with too many bad walkers (particularly say, wizard or barbarian). druids are just insane. They are half the price of magi, which is already a super power, and because they only have 5 less health, it's not the end of the world if they get lightning bolted, which kind of is the end of the world with magi. They have WAY more surplus money to buy out monsters from other factions, or develop your tier 6 monster production. I don't actually think magi are a very good unit (too costly, too vulnerable to magic and enemy garrisons and towers), but the comparison between a druid and a magi is extremely unfavorable. The comparison between vampire and druid is also quite interesting, as druids probably do more damage per cost, have more health per cost, and I generally feel shooters beat fliers unless fighting a human opponent. They also creep incredibly well, as phoenix just kill everything easily without taking losses if a hero isn't leading it, meaning you can split your combat army into 2 seperate armies (the shoot everything to death army and the burn everything with fire army). They also can do the "basically immune to magic" thing with dragons, as being immune to lightning, cold and fire, dramatically decreases how quickly they can be burned down by enemy magic. Sorc just does what you are actually called on to do very well (creep stuff, bank surplus gold to support secondary castles, and combine your stack with whatever other random stuff you get a hold of (neutral monsters, other towns, wandering monsters joining your army, whatever). In fact, if you actually check, you quickly realize that to just make druids, you don't actually require any secondary resources at all, and you require a lot less wood and ore early than either barb or knight. in my experience, sorc comes online probably almost as easy as barbarian (gems come from magic circles, you don't need to build the dwarf cottage, and so really, early on, all you need is 15 wood, and 15 ore, plus your statue, and that includes mage guild resources). Necromancer has some maps that are specifically designed for them, but outside that, I think they are just bad. 2 level ups to even really start accumulating skeletons, requirement you do all your creeping with your primary hero to get skellies, inability to get leadership on your primary hero, giving all your non necromancer stacks -2 morale, and how bad mummies and zombies are.... there is a huge investment just to get a few vampires, and necro just costs WAY more gold than the other 4 "cheap" castles to come online (total build out cost in gold of 41.65k, which is noticeably higher than even the overpriced knight, at 37.95k. Really, necromancers suck at leading other town monsters, suck at fighting with their own monsters, suck at building up economy, are not a good place to build a large mage guild, but require a level 2 mage guild to even upgrade your liches. Only beat knights, and not by a lot.

[@abssch]

I pick sorceress over all other factions. I just love the aesthetic, the castle design and music, two solid ranged units, two solid fliers, pretty affordable compared with others, plus the underestimated navigation skill (on water maps you dominate the early game like a barbarian). Even the battle dwarf is usable for guarding the elves and druids. Starts on grass terrain. Most fun to play with! I agree with Khelben that the one thing missing thematically is regeneration from the phoenix…. And I also agree that the unicorn can be hard to get in the mix sometime, but it’s way better than a hydra or a power lich in tier 5.

[@Rastamouse619]

House prices have gone up so much recently.

[@RancorSnp]

I will also say - Dwarves are some of the best castle defenders out there. If your opponent doesn't have balistics, a stack of lonesome Dwarves can defend or at least inflict significant loses on a full army

[@omerharon374]

Really good video. I argeed with you on allmost everything. Two point: 1) the horde of the skeleton is nice, but look at video of your own game: You (almost) never use them. They just standing there and take a slot. They slow, and walking..other moster do the hard work. 2) Titan can shoot on A horde of Hydra or Golem, or Lord orge, and stay alive. Dragon will have to face it... Titan can be ressurect which is great... and they take all the fire because they are shooting Unit. But black dragon are great as well. The warlock are much better with Gold than the Wizard.

[@winoodlesnoodles1984]

Thus the neverending argument as to the best unit in the game. Because you can't Ressurect True dragons, I don't see them as the best unit. The are just the only counter to Titans.

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

Thanks for watching! I have to admit I'm not the best Necromancer player. I'm sure other people find creative ways to get skeletons involved with more consistency. However, that detail didn't enter my reasoning for this video--I was simply looking at the Necromancy/Skeleton relationship and giving Necromancers a bump since they're the only faction who can dependably and constantly rely on a free source of tier 1 troops more than once a week.

[@lubomirlisichkov5860]

First, thanks a lot for Your channel and all cool videos! That's something was missing on KZbin I think. Keep on the good work mate. I am playing the game since 1996 and it's my favorite game of all time along with WoW. I have to disagree with one of you choice here. The Sorcerer's town and the faction as a whole it's not F tier imo. The Phoenix alone, as the fastest creature in the game, along with the Champions, Put it ahead of the barbarians and the humans I think. As You mention knowledge on large maps is often more important than spellpower and that's totally correct. I don't think that the human castle have any chance with the right played Sorcerer in any part of the game in mutiplayer. But anyway, It's so good that we can talk and argue over this game that's close to 30 years. That's mean just one thing - THE GAME IS TIMELESS MASTERPIECE! And thanks again for all your work mate!

[@galahad695]

i've played a ton of Homm2 when i was a kid, and quite a few more recently. and i just learned that your heroes movement is based of your slowest unit ... i did notice sometime that my hero movement was use quite fast, but i never made the link between my that and my army, which now that i think of it, is obvious, because you are moving with your units so you adapt your speed XD

[@CallofDutyBlackOps28]

nothing greater then scouting the map with a full team of archmages and titans.

[@winoodlesnoodles1984]

@@CallofDutyBlackOps28 Would that statement be made with a pinkie to the corner of your mouth?

[@Dylan6611]

Omg I didn't know that at all.. That makes so much sense. You just blew my mind forever.

[@pierreo33]

I also just learned this. I always assumed it was based on what terrain you were walking on lol

[@CallofDutyBlackOps28]

@@pierreo33 that is the case when you find heavy terrain, but some maps barely have them

[@kuptsovdanil6861]

When I played slugfest with my friends as the knight, I’ve destroyed the wizard and the warlock in a row with the same base army. Knights wtf! And also the feel of real challenge makes me proud of myself every time when I play the knight! One love ❤

[@winoodlesnoodles1984]

As much as I hate the Knight, I also agree with your logic.

[@abssch]

KhelbensCoin - you didn’t take into account “Best Castle Music.” LOL. Sorceress 🎶 = S Tier

[@BaronR]

If there ever is a Tier list for the best sounds in the game Halflings are the undisputed kings in the S-tier

[@JL-rj9fl]

Definitely, S+ tier ;)

[@Levrifon]

*woosh woooshh* *uwuuuuuu* *tskkkt eerrrr*

[@bluejesus105]

Dude you must be forgetting Vampires. BLYAAT!

[@trevorlysek3708]

I dare say I support Barbarians at B simply because of the bonkers attack skill. Sure, they have zero magic and Cyclopes are expensive Ogre Lords but it still doesn't change the fact that their attack damage bonus still make Orcs a viable unit for late game. Protect your Trolls at late game, keep a high stack of Orge Lords close by (Even if they're slow, they're the Troll bodyguards) and things can be difficult for anyone. It's pretty amazing how Trolls can drop stacks and meaningfully chip away at tier 6 creatures.

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

Thanks for watching!

[@melkartpl]

Trolls can carry alone

[@PeterBornAgain]

Even though I don't agree with every choice your tier ranking is your own opinion and you provided some very useful details in terms of starting hero abilities, castle and troop specs, and odds/probability in the beginning, mid, and late stages of the game. The best spell against a Knight or Barbarian is *slow* and if you get lucky later on and get *mass slow* and/or chain lightning then it is bye bye for the non-magical heroes but if you don't get lucky and obtain those spells and fall behind quick you may encounter a Barbarian with 12 ATT and 20 DEF which is exactly what happened to me the other day on an impossible Medium sized map which I rarely play as I prefer the Large/X-Large maps but anyway, all and all, very well done! 👌

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

Thanks for watching! Peter, I'm interested in your opinion... How would you have ranked the factions if you had to assign one to each tier?

[@PeterBornAgain]

@@KhelbensCoinTV 1) Warlock 2) Wizard 3) Necromancer 4) Sorceress 5) Barbarian 6) Knight I personally like Wizard the best because of the library and the larger variety of spells but I give the slight edge to the Warlock for the fact they have black dragons and once you get those they are pretty hard to stop even with Titans unless you have some really good artifacts and a relatively strong hero in terms of stats I also think it depends on the map size as I usually play Large or X Large on Impossible but if you play the small or medium map then the Barbarian and Knight is probably a better option since you are able to build the tiers faster but again, depending on the map as you stated in the video land/water makes a difference if you have a Sorceress and you also made a good point about the leadership not only for morale but sometimes you find that great artifact and you can't grab it because you aren't yet a "true leader" which is another benefit of leadership. Its pretty well rounded and like you said, you take 100 people everyone will have their own logic of why which castle is better ect just like these forums here heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=42556

[@CallofDutyBlackOps28]

yeah; I Shouldn't be surprised that Sorcress is F teir; though there's alot to love when you intermingle some spells; which i like to do Bless and Bloodlust alot because of the damage bonuses.

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

Absolutely--as I mentioned, I don't actually think any faction is incapable of achieving victory, it's just that I decided to make a polarizing tier list where there was one faction per tier to get people riled up and someone had to be F tier. Thanks for watching!

[@elmase2163]

Yea i hardly pick sorceress heroes unless there is a lot of water

[@Nherva-Cant-Play]

Full acknowledging differences in playstyle, and that it's a matter of taste: - Sorcerers have a pretty delicious midgame, early mid game. While sprites and dwarves don't see much use there, elves are easy to get, druids alright I guess, and suddenly you have two, t3 and t4 ranged units with good damage, and both will be "Very Fast" speed when upgraded. Great for creeping. - Necromances make me feel that they are specifically built in a way that their early, early mid game suffers unless u make good use of skeleton necromancy, as zombies and mummies are mega meh, and vamp lords and liches are pricy to acquire. - It's pretty hilarious that knights have the highest defense skill focus when their army has a pretty low health pool. I guess to offset it, but oh boy, do they have to rely a lot sometimes on their single t2 shooter. - Barbarians - Similar struggle as Knight, just less, better mid game armywise, and yeah, their heroes are mvp. - Wizards - Halflings are surprisingly great, even if slow. Rocs tank a good hit for a cheap to acquire flier, in all the phases of the game they are reliable. - Warlock - While not as damaging as halflings, simply for being a shooter I still rank centaurs high. Especially when one wants to creep a lot, as, while they have raw strength, their t2-3-4-5 doesn't seem easy to use for creeping. Aaayyy cheers, bless this game and all the people who made it, and those who make content for it

[@brianbleakley4679]

You could actually rank heroes and towns completely separately, yes you start with the hero for your town but you are likely to pick a second in the first week of the game so you will almost always have heroes that don't match your main town type.

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

This was a tier ranking of the factions as wholes. Yes, of course you can run a Barbarian from a Warlock town, but we were looking at the entire alignment within single factions for this tier list. Thanks for watching!

[@Tibor0803]

Well, I play a lot of Sorceress and the best hero type to make the Sorceress units effective is the Barbarian for obvious reasons.

[@andrzejkulakowski]

Nice coverage! also I like that fact that this pearl of a game is getting traction and deserved recognition so far past its release

[@samuel.andermatt]

About wizards starting with advanced wisdom. What I like about it is that I donßt start with a useless skill like scouting or navigation, so I have all the space for the good skills. What I donßt like too much about Dragons not being targetable by spells is that I canßt use true ressurection on them.

[@n0xure]

Scouting prevents you from wasting movement points when exploring uncharted territory and spell shrines only go to level 3. Having a starting hero with both Scouting and Wisdom is therefor more useful than Advanced Wisdom. Scouting is useless in the late game - but it kind of can give you an edge in the beginning; while Advanced Wisdom does nothing until you have level 4 mage guild. With 8 skill slots and there are 13 skills + necromancy. 4 of them are semi-useless (scouting, diplomacy, navigation and eagle eye); you usually always end up with one of those no matter what - it might as well be scouting and you might as well already have it when it still does something.

[@jaredhuff7486]

Very respectable list, but I'd put knights at F tier because they're just too slow. Their starting units are peasants and archers, which are going to make you very sluggish until you can finally upgrade to rangers. Your main hero that will be used to take down wandering creatures and enemy heroes will be forced to carry archers until you can upgrade to rangers or have enough reliable ground units, which likely won't be until week two. Being forced to carry very slow units until the second week puts you at a huge disadvantage early game, especially since the first week is when you need to accumulate resources the fastest. Despite their units being very cheap, I actually think knights are among the worst early game. When playing on impossible difficulty, I'd rank sorceress above knights and necromancers, and possibly warlocks and barbarians, but it's very map dependent. I consider building druids week 1 a good pace for sorceress, and to do so you need to find 15 ore (mage guild and stone henge) and 5 wood. The druid-elf combo is pretty strong for week 2, though it's by no means a powerhouse. Once you get lightning bolt or blind, you're strong enough to take down most CPU enemy units. Knights on the other hand, need 15 wood and 15 ore for your tavern, pikeman and swordsman, and 35 wood for cavalry on week 1. For necromancers, everything is just too expensive on impossible difficulty. Vampires week 1 would be a fairly good pace, but they cost 3000 gold and 15 wood (with thieves guild) to build and 500 to recruit un-upgraded. Vampire lords are excellent, but on a map with scarce gold and resources, you simply won't be able to afford them as fast as you'd like to. Liches are too expensive to recruit and will constantly be the target of enemy lightning bolts, so they'll frequently be low in numbers and just aren't worth it most of the time. It sucks that power liches are the only very fast necromancer unit. Barbarians aren't super effective until you get trolls in my opinion (though I still think they're pretty good early game), and to get those you'll need 30 ore and 10-15 wood, which is sometimes even difficult to secure on the second week, but again is very map dependent. If warlocks can get 10 gems for minotaurs week 1, I think they'll do great, otherwise it'll be a slow early game. You also sometimes need to spend 10 ore on gargoyles, which can be pretty annoying, especially when you're trying to build your statue and dungeon. I think wizards are the best on impossible difficulty with scarce resources because all you need to build rocs are 3000 gold and 5 wood (boars are the only prerequisite), which is pretty much guaranteed the first few days in the week. Once you get rocs, you can plow through pretty much any wandering creature that would be guarding any necessary mines and resources, allowing you to build the rest of your castle. They're also effective for early castle raids and just eliminating enemy heroes in general. Halflings are honestly super good as well and I don't think their slow speed hinders wizards that much, especially if you have logistics. Anyway, that's my essay on impossible difficulty because it's frequently the only challenging difficulty on a lot of maps.

[@matthewpoff2077]

Nice video and glad you gave such good descriptions on why you rated things like you did. That being said, Necromancers should be a very solid B and their relative cheapness of resources required even gives them an argument for A. Barbarians are the very definition of mediocre and belong as C.

[@winoodlesnoodles1984]

Necromancers do have one of the easiest paths to tier 6 unit.

[@makhauser42]

You have justified your choices, so they are quite reasonable and understandable. Would say, some of them are still flexible in different scenarios indeed, and sorceress might be useful sometime, too. The most useful is a hero with a proper leadership skill or artifacts and the best troops, so they don't care about the prejudice.

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

Yeah, I agree on the Sorceress. Like I mentioned in the video, any faction can win any scenario--this is more an exercise in personal taste ;) Thanks for watching!

[@makhauser42]

@@KhelbensCoinTV, of course they can. And it's great you go against the common tradition of putting knight to F-- tear. And even better, that you still keep promoting the HoMM2. By far the most nostalgic part of the game (despite being the sequel, but the first part is nice and nostalgic, too, but much more cartoonish). The sound design always returns to much simpler and less worrying times

[@simonlloyd8891]

Saweeet! Nice tier list!

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

Thanks for watching!

[@richardmezos5156]

have you tried the famous homm2 challange Pyramid on impossible? I highly recommend it, very very hard but not impossible to beat.

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

In my younger days, I definitely did. It's a very challenging scenario and I hope to overcome it someday! I'll try and get it on the channel. Thanks for watching!

[@GreetTheSacredCow]

I'd still put Knight below Sorceress. One weak shooter and no flyers hurts. Agree with the rest of your list though!

[@PeterBornAgain]

Same, knight is worse than Sorceress but again your opinion (my opinion) others disagree but to each their own. 🤷‍♂

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

Thanks for watching! Once again, if you asked 100 people what the best faction is, you'd probably get close to an even split among the 6 available. I gave Knights the leg up because A) their troops are cheaper and B) Leadership is a super cool skill (or, at least, better than Navigation on most maps).

[@melkartpl]

Cavalery which attack first and been wiped out first. Then comes other slow troops. You cant wait because you lose, you cant attack because troops are slow. I dont like knight at all. Phoenix gives you first turn and spell which can lead to easy win, elfs are strong and must be countered and unicorns just waiting for that.

[@PeterBornAgain]

@@melkartpl Yup, and greater druids as well. Sorceress isn't a bad stronghold. Knight is.

[@JL-rj9fl]

I rate this faction tier list as S. Really fun analysis! I ranked mine for before I watched, and I had Barbarian at C, Necromancer at B.

[@DarkflameEmperor]

It's so weird seeing Barbarian so high but I do like the high attack and it works so well with archery. Personally like the heroes but don't think the units are that good beyond the trolls. Slow or they die too fast. But that hero attack would work wonders with a black dragon stack or something like that. Might be the best combo (barbarian hero, black dragons).

[@winoodlesnoodles1984]

I think you make a good point. The tier 5 unit of barbs is an archery unit. As such, high attack and great chance of getting archer skill can make Barbarians quite nasty if you can find enough stones to tech up.

[@n0xure]

Yeah, the game plan with Barbarian is usually to capture an enemy castle asap; and then use that early game advantage to win the game - usually with the units of that other castle - with the Wartrolls mixed in. But I believe Knights are much better suited for that strategy because they. start. with. Ballistics - which makes it much easier to capture castle in week 2 - without magic or flying units. Also Champions cost almost half as much as Wartrolls - that makes Knights the kings of - Week 2 rush tactics. I get his point that Barbarian hero's are the best explorers and also better than knights when carry them through to late game; because when you get high attack skill you can have units deal up to +300% damage - making them scary foes to encounter in the field, but if you want them to capture a castle you need to find a way to circumvent their limitations - either get them better units, boost their magic capabilities somehow - or get Wisdom/earthquake or Ballistics. If you start to get into those nuances I can see why he considers Barbarian to be better; you almost always get one of these but you need to be flexible - since you're don't guaranteed to get either Wisdom or Ballistics - I think knights are generally more reliable and easier to handle.

[@DarkflameEmperor]

@@n0xure I personally like to capture two towns in the first three days (hero chaining ftw). If playing against AI they tend to move really far from their castle and for whatever reason they don't build too many units to defend. In land-based maps you want a central spawn and I usually go north and south. This strategy is effective but also the game is won really fast so it's a little less fun. Favorite time playing Heroes 2 was back when I was seven or eight and just stacked a thousand titans and went around attacking heroes just for the fun of it. I went through a phase of "need to beat every game in two weeks" and it really took the enjoyment of the game away since a lot of maps are a lot easier if you beat them early.

[@RalfsBalodis]

If possible, I always play Barbarian. For larger maps, I try to obtain wisdom and, of course, dragons or titans, if aviable.

[@nikakverenchkhiladze2702]

I'd rank them like this: warlock, wizard, necromancer , barbarian, sorceress and knight.

[@PeterBornAgain]

Almost the exact same way I ranked mine except I chose the sorceress over barbarian, good picks!

[@bogdanborcea9788]

Solid! As always.

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

Thanks for watching!

[@jasontodd8296]

Interesting. Was expecting necro in S tier. Sorceress in a way doesn't surprise me. If on island or water maps, the faction is higher up due to starting skills. But that is situational. The warlock can be top tier just by the +500 gold eco bonus. They can build more stuff and recruit their dragons more, which is also the main weakness of wizard. If wizard had some form of eco bonus, this would be a different list. Because, if you know what you're doing, and you're fighting a late game faction, deny them the resources and they're boned. And the warlock can partially cope with an eco war. The wizard can't. As for the necro, I think you forgot that the building order is basically split. Either you try week 1 vampires or you try week one laboratory. And getting week one laboratory is not so difficult. On the other hand getting week one phoenix is difficult, week one cyclops is still more difficult than week one laboratory. Week one cathedral is also relatively easy, if you skip cavalry, while dragons or giants week one are impossible on standard maps. Almost). Then the map size also changes the order. On small maps the early game factions gain in power (barbarian and knight). But on larger maps, late game factions dominate (wizard and warlock). Otherwise, good video.

[@natogfg]

S: Wizards A: Warlock B: Sorceress C: Necromancer D: Barbarians F: Knights

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

Wizards are my personal favorite, but I can't deny Dragon power. You have Sorceress at B and I'm intrigued--what makes you want to rank them over Necromancers, Barbarians, and Knights?

[@natogfg]

@@KhelbensCoinTV I don't deny the Power of dragons either, but the Wizard's mix of creatures works better than the Warlock's. The hydras are practically useless for exploration, if you don't have teleportation and the minotaurs are ok, but they don't fly and they aren't ranged. On top of that, the Swamp consumes the same resources as the dragon towers, making progress difficult! This gap between the Warlock's second and third strongest creatures makes me believe that the Wizard is better. The Wizard can always use his 3 strongest creatures. These are two factions that really shine in the late game, but the Warlocks have a lot of difficulties in the mid game. Wizards are better able to overcome this problem. And the price to build the Cloud Castle is equivalent of building the Black Tower (despite titans being the most expensive creatures in the game, ouch!). As for Sorcerress in B tier: The mix of creatures works very well with their strategies. It has the fastest creature that guarantees you to always start the game, which is very useful when you have spells (and it's a magic-oriented faction). It is a faction of fast creatures that either shoot or cover the entire battlefield in one turn. Unicorns can be a key strategic point due to the blind. Even fairies can play an important role in neutralizing ranged creatures until the Sorceress has control of the battlefield: she neutralizes ranged attacks from a ranged creature, does not take retaliation and in the attack of the ranged creature she must attack the fairy, spending her shift. With the exception of the Red Tower, they are cheap buildings to build. They are fragile creatures, but this makes up for it in the damage they cause and their speed. They always attack first. In the mid and late game they can maintain themselves well with a solid line of archers, and good 5 and 6 level creatures causing damage and disrupting defenses, along with the use of spells. ​ C tier Necromancers: they are very strong, but very expensive to build, they are not very fast creatures and the strategy is difficult to fit (how many times do we have to Skip the Liches to avoid hitting our vampires and skellies?). They are terrible at the beginning of the game and mid game. They really shine in the transition from mid to late game (if they can get there) D tier Barbarians: is a balanced faction. Price of buildings, speed of creatures and their strength are ok. But there are no flyers. Cannot dominate the battlefield before the second round. Has difficulty against castles. Goblins are kind of useless, Trolls and Cyclops are good but not exceptional, they can't carry the faction alone. F tier knights: I like playing with them because they are fast! They are easy to build, but their creatures are the weakest. Peasants are wasted money. No flyers. Only one ranged creature and no flyers. No creatures with special powers. The strongest creature is somewhat fragile (Champions die faster than hydras). Knights can only be good if you can quickly advance to conquer another castle and use creatures from other factions, as yours are unreliable in the mid and late game.

[@redknight4805]

Hmm, here is my order: S: Warlocks - for all the reasons you mentioned A: Sorceress - here I disagree with you. I think Sorceresses are super cheap to develop in terms of how much bang you get for your buck. Sprites are probably the best tier 1 monsters , since they are super fast, can fly and there is no retaliation against them. This makes them extremely useful early game when you are struggling with resources and cant afford to lose troops. Dwarves are super tough and super cheap and are great for defending towns. Elves are also super cheap and very good archers - and they shoot twice even when not upgraded. Druids are not that difficult to get early on, while they are decent both offensively and defensively. So, in early game you get cheap units which are very diversified in terms of mobility, defense and range. Already in week 1 you can have 2 types of ranged units, one tough defense unit and 1 super mobile flying unit against which there is no retaliation. And later, unicorns can blind and are very tough and do good damage. And pheonixes are cheap, extremely mobile, can attack multiple enemies and do decent damage. And by the time you can reliably buy black dragons or titans, you can already have double-digit pheonixes in your army. This is super important when it comes to building momentum. So, yeah... Wizards are more powerful - sure... but it takes much longer time to build momentum. Barbarians and Knights are technically cheaper, but since their units are weaker and less diversified, they actually cost more as you will be losing a lot of units. So, for me... Sorceress has that perfect balance of price and power, which is great for buildning momentum. B: Wizards: like I said, they are great, but are just too expensive imo. And since warlocks are still better, I have to put Wizards into B tier. C: Necromancers - for all the reasons you mentioned. Early game can be a pain, because you only have slow-walking units. At the same time, their ranged units are expensive and hard to use. The only plus is necromancy skill and vampire lords, which you won't be getting early on. Bone Dragons are also kinda gimped version of pheonixes - since they can't attack multiple units. D: Barbarians - They are better than knights due to better and more diversified units - especially trolls. But, that's about it. F: Knights - Peasents are completely useless. Rangers are usless until upgraded - and even when you upgrade them, that still leaves you only with 1 ranged unit, which can easily be decimated. And then you are left with only walking units, which can't get over walls.

[@Nherva-Cant-Play]

Funny as that might sound to some, I think the hero's starting spells too should at least be mentioned in such a conversation - IF they have any hahaha :P Certainly we like the bless of sorcs more than the curse of warlocks, and the +30% defense stone skin of wizards is pretty nice as well, and well, haste for necros can of course be delicious. We also have percentage values for their chance to level each primary skill, and percentage values for the chance of each secondary skills they can get.

[@Strawhathopeful]

Only thing I would change about this list is swapping knight and necro. While it's true that necro has a way stronger late game, the knight's middle and early is so much better coupled with the defense skill being as high as it is makes them a better pick IMO. Everything else I couldn't agree with more. And honestly the best part of the titan is not that it's powerful or ranged, it's the fact that it draws the cpu's attention in every fight. The castle shoots at titans, the flyers jam titans, the archers shoot titans, the casters aim for titans. It makes it so easy to mass your expensive wizard troops with the titan absorbing all the damage every fight.

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

Thanks for watching! I actually wanted to make that point when talking about Halflings, who can swell to huge numbers thanks to attention being drawn away by Titans and Archmagi, but I got sidetracked when making their stupid death sound like a b-hole. Anyway, EXCELLENT point made here! Thanks for bringing it up in the comments.

[@Strawhathopeful]

@@KhelbensCoinTV never stop making the halfling noises it cracks me up every time and I started doing it now in my games

[@johngordon6792]

I would bump the Sorceress up to rank B and bump the Barbarian, Necromancer and Knight down one space. The Sorceress just dominates the early and mid game. She has two strong mid tier ranged units and lots of spell points. I'd take the Sorceress over the Knight, Necromancer and Barbarian any day.

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

Thanks for watching! I don't disagree. Obviously, tier lists are steeped in the creator's bias, and I've personally just enjoyed more success with other hero types.

[@SimSim-dp4sm]

I know you're right about everything but I just love playing with Wizard, I can't help

[@marc-andregauthier5006]

100% agree with your ranking. Very good video!

[@winoodlesnoodles1984]

Great video! My only real contention would be the one faction per tier. I would have zero issues have 3 S tier, an A tier a C tier and Knight. I guess there wasn't anything below F. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.) For Khelben I guess it would go Warlock/Wizard S tier, Barbarian/Necromancer A tier, Knights D tier and Sorceress F tier. The way I tend to look at factions is how many and how reliable are their S tier strategies. From this perspective, Warlocks have dragons. They also get Gargoyles right away which can be a huge asset in getting through early game Grand Elf, Greater Druid and Arch Mage blocks. The only issue with dragons is how long it takes to get to and how much sulfer is needed. Wizards have Titans however, Arch mages are at the bottom end of S tier strategies. So that is two S tier stategies and best in class spell casting. Add in early access to fliers. The Roc is easily the most oppressive early game unit. Necromancers have Vampire Lords and Skeletons. Skeletons do require teleport to be true S tier, but that often isn't difficult to get. The only issue with Necormancy S tier strategys is that you need a pretty large snowball to get it rolling. As such, it still takes to when everyone else is in end game for Necromancer to get their S tier strategies going. Sorceress has Phoenix with the Elemental Storm cheese. Cheese or not, it is still an S tier strategy. However, that is why I would put Sorceress at A tier. Also, it is easy to get to Grand Elves which can be a super asset in the early game to clear out ghosts from gold mines. I would agree that Barbarians are the best early game. With wolves and pathfinding, they are the best early game scout. If you can get trolls early, they can get down right oppresive. This is why I would go C tier, but I won't argue against B tier. That just leaves Knights, who don't deserve to be rated with the rest of the factions. They are just that bad. If you are constantly on defense, you are losing. You need to attack to win. I would agree starting with Avdavnced Wizardry is weak early game. However, it can be nice in mid game to grab a Wizard and be cast Dimension Door or Town Portal at level 2. That is just broken and can really change the direction of a mid game. There are really only two unique buildings that matter. The Library is broken. The Dungeon is just to be able to afford Hydras until you get dragons. As to the worst early game, the Knight is by far the worst. It starts with very slow units making it the worst early scouting in the game. Necromancers at least have Skeletons which are average. Sorceresses have Pixies which are average. Leadership is an interesting skill. It is the one skill I don't think I have ever found at a hut. For this reason, a Knight can be useful if you need a hero in the early game to pick up an item that requires leadership. After that, the knight has no value. So, to recap, Knights are the worst early game, have no mid game or end game. They don't cast spells nor get much in mobility. Nothing but bleh. . . . There is a reason the faction got such a major overhaul in HM&M3. I don't play knight and I don't play maps that require me to play knight. That being said, given the metrics used, I would agree with what is here, just swapping Sorceress up to D tier and Knights down to G or H tier. Seriously, how can one faction suck that bad?

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

Thanks for watching! I like the resiliency of Knight troops, even if they lack variety and special abilities. The fact that so many of them can be recruited for relatively cheap prices week over week means you have quantity (if not quality) in the mid-game. A stout stack of Master Swordsmen, though liable to Blind/Paralyze spells, is a tough puzzle to solve sometimes. That said, I think we're in agreement on most points.

[@winoodlesnoodles1984]

@@KhelbensCoinTV I have zero issues with differring opinions. That is what makes discussions interesting. To be fair, I had never thought about troop cost before watching your videos. I'll hate on ogres all days, but your even gold challenges show that per gold they are nearly untouchable. I'm still going to hate on them, just not as much as I would have otherwise. 😁 Actually, Warlocks are quick solid with ogres and hydra. They are fast, but can tank enough hits and spells for a warlock to burn down the opposing army with spells. As such, there may be a case for gold/health measurement.

[@scottyskaggs8396]

I love your videos your opinion is good.

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

Thanks for watching!

[@KyriosHeptagrammaton]

I think grand elves alone put Sorceress above Knight. And the mere chance at spells and Titans probably squeaks Wizards into B for me and pushes Barbs down into C. If this was relative to power though, then everyone is F Tier and Warlocks are S. It's not even close or fair. I put Necromancers in A tier because of Vampire Lords and Skeletons. Either is enough to build your entire army around, and both are fairly easy to get. Plus they are decent spellcasters on top of that.

[@MyHydralisk]

You really don't like playing necromancers, don't you? :D I can understand the bias towards warlock/wizard - those lvl6 dudes are op and all that (while still, necroes are much more 'all-rounded'), but barbarians? Better than necromancers? That's some dirty play man

[@SpaceWitch144]

Zombies and mummies are shittest units of their tier, arguebly.

[@winoodlesnoodles1984]

@@SpaceWitch144 True. However, Vampire Lord and Skeletons can be completely S tier broken. Add in the res true for undead is a level 3 spell. WTF?!?!? If that snowball gets rolling, get out of the way.

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

Thanks for watching! I personally prefer playing Necromancer to Barbarian, actually, but I gave Barbarians the edge because while they're the best early game faction, Necromancers are the worst. Also, Barbarians field the scariest heroes in the mid- and late-game because they're SO all-in on Attack Skill, which is something that comes into play up to 5 times a round. Necromancy as what I think is the best Secondary Skill isn't as valuable as what I think is the scariest Primary Skill in Attack Skill. BUT... it was close. I ALMOST put Necromancers in A-tier over both Barbarians and Wizards, but I couldn't deny the power of Titans and access to so many spells. Actually, Necromancers were in contention for S-Tier in my brain before I locked this down for the video.

[@MyHydralisk]

@@KhelbensCoinTV And that was a good thought. You are very biased towards wizards (it shows from other videos) - and it is completely fine, truely. We all have preferences, and in game like this, where balance is just not a part of equation - personal favors wins the spot. Wizards are heavy, getting ivory tower on impossible is pain, getting library on top of it?... No shiet. It is much easier to upgrade mansion than to upgrade ivory tower. And getting titans is sooo lategame , necro will have 3k skellies with teleport at that moment. On a side note - animate dead is outright broken ;)

[@MyHydralisk]

@@SpaceWitch144 no one ever will use zombies, just skip them and go for mansion. You build graveyard only for liches/bonies. Mummies tho are very well rounded. Not golems ofc, but at least they are not dragging your hero into slow mode. And like other said - vampires+skeletons make up for this in a huge way

[@Benstyping]

Loved the vid. Is there HMM3 vids too?

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

As of today, not yet! I'm planning on switching to HOMM3 beginning in 2024 for a short time and seeing how it goes for the channel.

[@bluejesus105]

I find necromancers strong early game. Ill tell you how. The very first thing i do is to build a lvl 1 mage guild. This can be a sort of cheating but if i dont get a magic arrow i restart the game. Ill roam only with skeletons to walk faster in the first days killing everything with magic arrow and use skeletons only if someone gets too close, so im usually without casualties. In 2,3 day ill build a statue and a well to generate gold. I spawn other heroes to roam with magic arrow and skeletons. My only goal the next few days is to get enough sulfur for mausoleum and then laboratory. If i remember correctly thats only 15 sulfur + 5 of other resources!!! Also, If i collect treasures i only take gold. Wast majority of my games i manage to get 15 sulfur in the first 7 days. Ill return with my main hero to refill spell points at day 5-7 to recruit 1 dragon or if its day 7 and i only just managed to build it then ill take 4 bone dragons. I procced to roam the entire map with 4 bone dragons and free skeletons from the 7th day of the game!!! After mad roaming ill make sure i get my elite vampires and add them to my army later. Unless i have abundance i dont spend gold or resources on any other units or buildings. Dragons, vampires and skeletons.

[@jdawgg904]

Damn, no love for the Sorceress. One of the strongest aspects of the Sorceress is her ability to take advantage of stack splitting better than all other factions. Getting 4 stacks of very fast ranged units under a Barbarian hero (with archery) allows you to take on much tougher enemies earlier and with zero causalities. There's no world where the Knight faction comes close to that level of power.

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

Stack-splitting is such a point of contention in this community mostly because everyone thinks it's a good idea but I, the creator, am unconvinced. Why is stack-splitting good? I agree with splitting stacks in specific situations, but why is it generally a good thing? Asking for the purpose of education.

[@jdawgg904]

@@KhelbensCoinTV The Sorceress is a unique case where her two ranged units both have Very Fast speed with relatively high damage ranges. Splitting them into 5 stacks allows you to spread out the damage much more efficiently with minimal damage loss. In some battles it might not matter, but in others it can mean the difference between the enemy getting a few hits on you vs. the enemy not getting a single attack. This allows you to take on much tougher battles in weeks 2, 3, and 4 with minimal to zero attrition. It also helps mitigate flyers from disrupting your ranged units. One flyer cutting your ranged units' damage by 50% sucks, but when they are spread across 5 tiles, you can maintain 60% of that damage. I don't believe stack splitting scales well into the late game when you're fighting dragons and other tier 6 units. However, it can be extremely useful during the early to mid game when you're exploring and fighting the map. I am also a fan of going for those multiple procs of moral and luck boosts, but I believe that only impacts damage consistency vs. total damage output.

[@romankrupicka8478]

For me it is: S Warlock - best units composition, best income thanks to dungeon, dragons imune to effects A Necro - cheap units, unkillable vampires, skeletons for free, imune to bad morale B Sorceress - best mid-tier units, 2 very good shooters C Wizard - good units, 3 shooters, but expansive, hard to level D Barbarians - cheap units, but they are not very outstanding E Knights - worst units, hard to level

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

Thanks for watching!

[@pwnstick4972]

Trolls have a regeneration ability?

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

Yup! At the start of their turn, any HP the current stack has lost is restored.

[@cosmic867]

love your videos

[@Luvsweden99]

Huh intresting most choices are flipped compared to mine 😂 Although i have not played alot on big maps nor with very big armies. (100s of tier 6s) I prefer wizards over warlock mainly cause you can ressurect the titans compared to dragons. Knights i would put in F. While affordable and while i do love rangers and crusaders i do not like their start cause you'll be taking a bunch of loses if youre unlucky and theres a range stack at whatever you need. Since fliers and ranged are so powerful in this game knights definetly suffers from the random creeps you'll fight early on especially ranged stacks in the first few days. while sorceress is rather squishy theyre still very fast which lets you inflict a bunch of damage before the enemy can. Although theyre also very dependant on what spells both sides get. Barbarian has a better start then knights and until you get titansw the trolls soaking up the tower shots is so good. Necromancers can get Bone dragons rather early and i think that along with vampire lords is their biggest plus in my eyes. So i guess my tiers would be S:Wizard A:Warlock B:Sorceress C:Necromancers D:Barbarian and F:Knights I am not an expert nor play on very high difficulty settings either but still wanted to add my opinion xD

[@wyndoellabridge6208]

So my question is then: if all factions are functional, dont they just effectively operate as a difficulty slider/playstyle selection instead?

[@-Zakhiel-]

Late response : In my opinion it's more a momentum problem. That's why people will argue that the barbarian is the best castle for small maps when Warlocks are best for XL maps. There is also the problem that Heroes of Might and Magic 2 is not a balanced game at all. Black dragons are so strong that you don't even need other creatures in your army when you got them The only creature that can defend itself against them (but still lose most of the time) are the titans wich are alos very expensive. Basically, when you play HoMM2, if you don't have the Warlocks castle, you begin the game thinking "Ok... so where is the Warlocks castle so I can rush it". Also, you could argue that heroes and castles should be judged separatly. What I like to do when I pick Warlocks is to check for heroes to hire at the beginning of the game. If there is a barbarian, I'll recruit him and make him my main hero for an overkill dragon squad with a huge attack and good defense bonus from my barbarian.

[@kranclub9399]

My tier: S - Wizards ( best magic + range units) A- Necromancers ( necromancy + lord vampires) B - Warlock ( flying units + black dragons) but i dont like this castle. C - Barbarians( best heroes, ogres the best tanks in the game) but weak magic potential D- Knight ( cheap units, nice defence heroes + leadership) but the weakest units and weak magic F - Elf town (phoenix is the fastest unit in the game) but the weakest heroes, units have small hit points

[@melkartpl]

Warlock can easy farm with hydras, no problem with shooters, may be S, A tier.

[@EternaltheGrey]

"Are you building level 4 Mage Guilds in your first week? If you are, *stop it*" I would pay good gold to see a map that doesn't totally suck where somebody can actually pull that off.

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

Haha... I was speaking in hyperbole, of course. I meant really that level 4 Mage Guilds are not usually an early game construction. By the time you're ready for a level 4 Mage Guild, you (provided you're a spellcasting alignment) are likely an Expert in Wisdom, so starting at level 1 with Advanced Wisdom is a little pointless. Thanks for watching!

[@boi9842]

my list would swap the Barbarians/Necromancer places and swap the Socercer/Knights as well. I don't think heroes makes a big a difference since you can hire any hero with any faction, just requires some RNG to get the Barb hero. Knights are easily the worst faction, they stand no chance against the Sorcerer from my experience with the game, Knights are supposedly to be the early game faction yet they start with a useless unit(peasants) and the worst ranged unit(archer) two very slow units, they have no flying unit as well so raiding castles and clearing monsters camps is pain. Why do Knights have Fortification when they're the rush early or lose faction? how would Fortficiation help them when they're outscaled by every other faction in the mid to late? almost every Knight unit requires upgrade as well, i really don't understand this faction. Also why the Warlocks have a 500 gold each day bonus when they have the strongest late game? this makes their main weakness(expansive to build up) pointless. They should've swapped Warlocks and Knights special buildings, Knights need the extra gold to build up fast and rush, Warlocks needs fortification to defend early, makes more sense in my opinion.

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

Maybe, but I think the fact that Knight troops are incredibly cheap relative to other factions (plus the fact that they grow to large numbers every week) means they can have a quantity advantage in the mid-game. Plus, I can't undervalue Leadership as an ability--extra turns give you so much flexibility and casualty-dealing potential on the battlefield that I can't ignore its impact when compared to the situational nature of a Sorceress's Navigation skill. Perhaps Knights were given Fortifications with the intention of keeping out Barbarian armies, who we have ranked pretty high here? I'm not sure... Anyway, I think Warlocks benefit way more from the Dungeon than Knights, who have far cheaper units they can afford more naturally.

[@alex_b.]

Is there a community still to play HOMM2 online?

[@kacprzakandrzej2826]

That's one really sensible, logical and well explained tier ranking! Thanks for this video!

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

Thanks for watching!

[@mauricesteel4995]

"This is a Tier List, something has to be S, something has to be F" i don't agree with this rationality. you don't need to have an F tier, or a D or even a S Tier, the purpose of tier lists is to make a visual representation of the relative viability of your different options in a game, and the greater the disparity, the more tiers you need to represent that, that said, only put things in F tier if they are significantly worse than the other options, and if Sorceress is much worse than the other options, sure, put them in F tier, but she should be there because she is significantly worse than what is in the tier above, not because you need someone in F tier.

[@marcusaurelius5149]

The problem with rating the game is it heavily depends on the map. If the map is smol, Barbarians and Knights rank near the top because their units are so cheap. However, having said that I would put Necros above Barbarians and Wizards above Warlocks. I get that Wizards are expensive AF but it's worth it. Not to mention, Steel Golems are ridiculously durable.

[@KhelbensCoinTV]

Thanks for watching! Interesting point on the map type, for sure. That's why we take measured approaches as audience members to tier lists, right!?!? Just kidding, roast me mercilessly. I'm here for it.

[@VladStefaneanu]

Knight should go to S

[@siegheilyolo]

Great and reasonable comparison. Pleasure to watch as always!

[@Dreamut]

uuuuuuuuuuuuh!!!!