Tigran Hamasyan’s crazy polymetric time signatures

[@DavidBennettPiano]

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[@thescythian321]

I love these odd and complex time signature videos! I hope you will explore sometime the rich music of Eastern Europe and the Balkans, particularly that of the Gypsies. The Time Signatures and Poly-Rythms of this music is fascinating and hypnotic. Thank you for doing such a great job!

[@svcjunior5526]

Bro just invented 16 bars of 4/4

[@svcjunior5526]

Joke(?)

[@21centuryhippie61]

Lmao literally the first thing I thought.

[@jayrussell3796]

​@@svcjunior5526well 16 times 16 is 256....

[@svcjunior5526]

@@jayrussell3796 yes, it is

[@jayrussell3796]

@@svcjunior5526 except dude broke it down into all kinds of weird time 35/7, 35/3 ...wtf

[@fbarnes123]

I love that during half the lines, it sounds like David is about to break out laughing

[@twaylan]

Justifiably so

[@SharkEatFish]

ikr

[@Satellite_Of_Love]

Yes! This song is bananas and I love it.

[@timothymerrylees7590]

Proof that everything is in 4/4 if you don't count like a nerd

[@LL-bl8hd]

💯 😁

[@lcpholman]

or count like a drummer. Well... a drummer's arms

[@scabbarae]

You mean like how you can count "Take Five" as "one...two...three-four"

[@GuyXVIII]

Damn I was just saying that :D :D :D

[@sorryguys1090]

​@@scabbaraeor waltz for that matter

[@TheGrenvil]

Every Tigran song is just 4/4 with some weird accents and that's why I love it, weird time signatures can sometimes be just complexity for the sake of it, but this weird times kinda emerge organically from his style of composition

[@maverator]

Mmm, seems more like complexity for the sake of it to me. It's the only thing remotely notable about this. Pretentious and pointless.

[@TheGrenvil]

@@maverator the way he composes those things is that he thinks of macropaterns, so he probably just played with some frases using 5s and 3s and arived at the 35/16 frase, played it a couple of times and realized he could make it fit a 4/4 grid if he played one bar of 11 every 7 bars It's not like he sat in front of the piano and figured he would make a 256/16 song because he's so smart, it just emerged naturally from his style of using groups of 5,3,7 etc. There a very good David Bruce video where he talks with a guy that works with tigran and he explains more how it's actually not that complicated

[@jimit.4220]

​@@maverator So you're saying this complexity adds nothing? You don't think it creates a feel completely different from normal time signatures or even odd time signatures without a polymeter? Yeah that's ridiculous. You may not like it but a lot of people do and the complexity isn't at all just for the sake of it

[@zakm0n]

Levitation 21 is FAR from just 4/4 with weird accents. Lots of polymeter and other shenanigans in that song.

[@chegevara8896]

​@@maverator very pointless comment

[@SodiumWage]

Me (the band's new drummer): So what song are we going to practice? The band: We need you to count to 256 every bar. Don't mess up! Me: *literally dies*

[@DarkSideofSynth]

The band: Oh, and the tempo is 240 bpm. Ready? :))))

[@billepperson2662]

Who clicked the like button when it had 256 likes?! 🤦

[@jayclarke5466]

Zappa: ‘hey ur not feeling the 256/16’

[@elrondhubbard9127]

Seeing Tigran, Arthur Hnatek, and Evan Marien (and Tosin) perform this album in it's entirety, outdoors in a beautiful amphitheatre in summer 2022, is definitely one of the greatest concerts of my life 😁🙏

[@James_Anderson_]

David in 2020: Songs that use 7/4 time David in 2023:

[@ChomperZomber]

55 likes and no reply? Let me fix that.

[@timg2727]

This is basically Meshuggah played on a piano, and I love it.

[@bernhardkrickl3567]

You forgot to make your own song in that polymeter at the end.

[@hexostatus4658]

Performance wise, it’s not practical to write songs in out of the world time signatures

[@blitzkringe]

@@hexostatus4658 yeah, better just to show your boobs

[@JonathanMeyer-o4m]

@@hexostatus4658 i think thats the joke

[@mawsauce7786]

Tigran is directly inspired by Meshugga. If you want to understand Tigran's work then Meshugga will greatly help

[@lautaroortiz5935]

Meshuggah the metal band?

[@HEVELproyectofficial]

​@@lautaroortiz5935yes

[@warcrime5809]

@@lautaroortiz5935yup

[@bregottmannen2706]

@@lautaroortiz5935 No the romantic composer

[@gx1tar1er]

​​@@bregottmannen2706ngl this is how Meshuggah and Periphery would play this song lol

[@Matematikervildtsjov]

Even though Tigran apparently says this himself, I feel it might be in a slightly joking manner. This song, like every single Meshuggah song, and most of Tigran's music, should be primarily be understood as 4/4 against a polymeter which after some ammount of 4/4 bars corrects itself with a tail to fit and start over. I know that this is exactly what David points out in the video aswell, but I don't think anyone playing this song will feel the subdivisions as any sort of main pulses, but merely as a shifting motif. The superb drummer @Yogev Gabay (who has played with Tigran in a brief colab at Berkley) has made a ton of videos of how Meshuggah (and Tigran) does this, see for example his video on the "Meshuggah Calculator" kzbin.info/www/bejne/b2eloat_rZ2lesU

[@lyoug]

Thank you, this is exactly what I wanted to add (Meshuggah, Yogev). 4/4 is the "master" here, and every 16 bars, the odd 35 (5+5+5+5+3+3+3+3+3) pattern is cut short, forced to realign.

[@solacedagony1234]

It sounded like he was saying that 256 is the "common denominator" between the drums and piano. So 256 beats will need to go by before the drums and piano line up on beat 1 again

[@sohamsengupta6470]

By far one of my favourite tracks off one of my favourite albums, so heavy but clean

[@robertray2714]

What a convenient and extremely useful way to notate a song incredible stuff david

[@hifijohn]

He did it to get attention.

[@lt_johnmcclane]

@@hifijohnwell yeah of course he wants attention. People don’t make educational videos like this for themselves to watch

[@OliverSchlecter]

@@hifijohnugh just like how authors write books for people to read them 🙄

[@Grimnoire]

@@hifijohn Wtf is this comment what does it even mean

[@hifijohn]

. @Grimnoire Wow are people really this dumb ,the artist created this stupid and awkward time signature to get attention,songs in 4/4 are dime a dozen but create a weird time signature or a song with a very very long title and its bound to get someones attention and you get some cheap publicity out of.

[@anthonyrodriguez7950]

Yes! This is the Tigran analysis I've needed my whole life. Top notch content, as usual

[@rocketguardian2001]

David you just found the musical version of a run-on sentence!

[@whycantiremainanonymous8091]

256/16? Don't be square. Just say it's in 16 and that's it.

[@Chigger]

You fool! 16 is still square. Just say it's in 4 and be done with it.

[@whycantiremainanonymous8091]

@@Chigger but 4 is still square too! This should never have been divided into sixteenths in the first place. It's all about the eighth power.

[@Chigger]

@@whycantiremainanonymous8091 XD

[@Ctacobell]

You clearly arent a musician

[@whycantiremainanonymous8091]

@@Ctacobell There's always that one commenter who takes your joke seriously...

[@VikoTheBassist]

Meshuggah has basically done the exact same thing on every song since 1998, Tigran is very much inspired by their rhythmic style in his music

[@kukquakk4716]

Tigran makes amazing music, big fan. And yeah, his time signatures do get a bit wacky from time to time…

[@mintegral1719]

I love his music too! I really need more music that can be described as "math jazz"; it's so neat

[@dannymac6368]

I love Tigran; as a drummer I was hoping you’d mention the 4/4 “simplicity” of the poly-meter.

[@SamBrockmann]

That's wild. The whole song just sounds like a crazy ride.

[@OverSmart13]

the drummer is the insane one here. standing ovation for this sitting man

[@maxblatter]

The 35/16 subdivision is what I heard immediately (of course without recognizing the exact number of beats). - I think the composer must fancy the powers of 2 (256 = 2^8; 16 = 2^4)! Well, there is a strong general relationship between mathematics and music.

[@solacedagony1234]

Id say it's more likely that it just happened to be 256 because it is a multiple of 4. I haven't seen much in 2/4

[@Altropos]

Mockroot is such a blast. Love that album.

[@l.musicandsound]

Tigran is one of my absolute favorites, and so is Meshuggah. It's so cool to see these polymeter tropes influence and be achieved by other artists. This kinda stuff jams and grooves so hard!

[@timg2727]

It's interesting to point out the similarity to Meshuggah, since a lot of their stuff is also basically just 4/4 with a bunch of weird accents and timing thrown in.

[@l.musicandsound]

@@timg2727 It's not really a secret that Tigran listens to Meshuggah, you can find that online from interviews. This song specifically follows the general Meshuggah formula for polymeter riffs over 4/4, and it does it really well. On the surface, it seems quite silly for me to compare somebody like Tigran to a band like Meshuggah because of how different the vibes are, but this one really checks out when you do the math :)

[@ifer1280]

Thanks for covering one of Tigrans songs! I love his work

[@d4nd31o]

Mockroot is my favourite Tigran album, it is hard as any rock music and swings like Tarzan. His genius is astounding. I love Nate Wood on drums with Tigran but when he partners with Arthur Hnatek, as he does here, it's otherworldly. Time signatures and meters are really subjective, his songs contain phrases that are this long, yes, indeed but can be easily counted, as you say, in smaller chunks. Saying 256:16 is a real wanky way to say na-na-nana-naaa, bitches! But it's true. :D I think the most amazing aspect of a huge number of his non solo songs is how each member also counts and plays the phrasing in completely separate time from Tigran's main melody. Road Song is a great example, you can listen to it from start to finish twice and count it in 4:4 the first time and 6:8 the second time through, hearing a completely different song, both of which are correct. This genius composing is just nonchalantly littered throughout all of his work, the guy is a robot. Their live performances are nothing short of magic.

[@d4nd31o]

The Grid/Out Of The Grid, from this same album is another great set. And that title! These people are living metronomes and eat grids before breakfast.

[@ultimamax]

#1 by Animal Collective is in 7/4 with the drums in 4/4. One of my favorite polymeters, it's very smooth

[@kwichmann2777]

The Meshuggah calculator says hi! Using konnakol is really useful for stuff like this!

[@aijamberisabel]

That song is making my head hurt legit! Very interesting video and surprisingly not clickbated at all. I love your channel, you are one of the only music theory KZbinrs who actually make it interesting and fun to learn!!

[@arieladriel8430]

Esto me recuerda a Politik de Coldplay. Es una canción que siempre se transcribe o la enseñan con la métrica de 4/4; sin embargo, la sensación de ritmo que te da la canción es muy diferente, se siente más a una métrica de 16/8. Este 16/8 puede contener pequeñas métricas amalgamas como 3/8+4/8, y al combinarlo con el 4/4 de la batería, al final, da una sensación de escuchar un polímetro. Una gran canción; pero, lástima que nadie habla de ella

[@TheMister123]

And finally, at 9:58, I can relax a little with Mr. Bennett's usual lighter melodies. Ahhh... relief from the freneticism. 🙂

[@sharpphilip]

I was just blasting this in the car the other day and trying to recall something David Bruce had made about Tigran’s rhythms. I can’t follow it properly even as a mere listener (never mind as a performer!), but now with your video’s simplifying benefit, maybe I’ll get there. Cheers, David!

[@lcpholman]

And that is where these mixed time signatures work so well - when juxtaposed with a constant to provide ebb and flow - in and out of sync, and seems to be a common thing. I think the alternate groups of 5/16 and 3/16 captures the feel of this section best - and that's the purpose right?, communicating music in written form.

[@pazzy768]

But where is the 256/16 David Bennett original by at the end? :(

[@davidfelton7772]

This song is what it would sound like if Animals As Leaders played piano

[@Repton0]

Of course its by tigran hamasyan

[@nathanlowry3764]

I click on the video - “oh, it’s Tigran.” 😂

[@TheSlyFreak]

This is actually the song that introduced me to Tigran! Awesome to see a video breaking down his insanely nerdy and complex music

[@eriksatieofficiel]

I removed bar lines from my piano sheets 150 years ago

[@jcarty123]

The ending 11/16 bar is: another bar of 5/16, then 6/16. Or perhaps 2 bars of 5/16, then 1/16. Point is, even that bar should probably be subdivided a tad more.

[@lordwilksy]

9:26 We just gonna let the beautiful texture of cymbal colour just slide ;)

[@MomLAU]

Your videos do exactly what this song title says! And your piece at the end sounds so soothing!

[@DiegoMSM]

Okay no messing with time signatures is cool but there is a line

[@mynameusedtobelong]

The final one.

[@Funkybassuk]

Sorry, I just hear this as a super funky 4/4 🤷🏾‍♂️ (I am a bass player so I just listen to the drums)

[@saneksin]

As a bass player I'd disagree. Sure, there is a constant line of cymbals in 4/4 and a snare hit on 3, but if you were to give a drummer the sheet music written in a way David did in the video (in 4/4 with a crazy syncopation on the drum kick), then it'd make the learning process unnecessary complicated. The bass player follows the kick drum in this song, so learning the pattern is much more useful than writing everything down in 4/4 and trying to learn the syncopation, although the steady 4/4 backbeat definetely helps to keep track of the changes.

[@Funkybassuk]

@@saneksin I respect your opinion but I don’t hear the syncopation as being that crazy. I think what David was saying was interesting when he said that there are different ways to notate it for different purposes: sight reading or conceptually understanding what is going on. I am not a very good sight reader but that tune grooved like a m*********er and didn’t sound like overly complex syncopation as it repeats in the same ways a number of times. 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@joshuawalker301]

Thing sound like djent, like the ones metal dudes were listening a few years back, but on piano.

[@DCJayhawk57]

Next video need you to break down pretty much every Messhugah song lol.

[@artrogers3985]

If I went to a tryout and they handed me sheet music in 256/16 time I would put on my hat and politely excuse myself.

[@CACOaugus1o]

Could you do a Brazillian song, if possible? But NOT Girl from Ipanema, please. Theres this song from Milton Nascinento called Maria Maria that has some very interesting chord progressions. Or you could do Águas de Março, wich is a classic full of beautiful chords. Tbh honest, any brazillian song you chose would make my day.

[@ZackSussmanMusic]

256 is what it takes for it to repeat but I think it’s absurd to represent that at the level of meter!!! Plenty of music repeats in longer intervals and we don’t just claim that that’s the meter. I hear this in 4/4.

[@jimit.4220]

Honestly not that crazy considering meshuggah did this sort of polymeter before tigran, and imo did it with more complexity in catch-thirtythree, stuff like In Death - Is Life

[@norandavis856]

256 goes evenly into 16. It’s just 4/4 played with a half time feel and the bass drum playing something that feels like an odd meter, but it isn’t. Completely ridiculous and unnecessary for someone to write something that way. It’s a rather pretentious way to write music. Making yourself to appear as a “savant” when you’re really not at all. Non musicians are the only people impressed by such nonsense. Any average musician would conclude that “composer” was just an idiot. It’s no less foolish that calling something 200/4. You mean 50 bars of 4/4? Don’t be an idiot lol most musicians find that sort of pretentious behavior irritating

[@yvancluet8146]

Anyone who's listened to enough Meshuggah will hear the hi hat and snare going "tss tss pam tss" on repeat and go "Hey, that's 4/4 !" and they'd be right ;)

[@FranzSchmidtYoutube]

Thanks David and Tigran, you've _Entertain(ed) Me_ 🤗

[@althealligator1467]

Oh David you've reall gone off the rails now On a serious note, will you ever upload the "reviweing your music" streams on the second channel? Seeing as everything is gone on Twitch now...

[@davidbojay3606]

I'm so glad he's finally getting talked about more.... i've been listening to him for 6 years and I'm so glad it was you that covered him in depth!!

[@zzzaphod8507]

So there is some justification for calling it in 256, as that's when everything synchronises again.

[@Vic9994546]

It’s pointless to use 256/16 because it makes no sense approach-wise and is useless and vague if the argument is that it helps describe the whole thing together that’s not it either, in every piece you tie it all together with the elements of Time and phrasing etc. Also it’s not theoretically correct either there is no rule to whether or not you should put an entire piece in one time or using several time signatures if that was the case every piece wed count up the notes and just write a giant time signature… it’s absurd. You use time signature in its simplest ratios to show where there is a shift not as an overall count up of everything that’s the definite wrong way of doing it and in fact can do harm to the pieces performance by others because that kind of vagueness will obscure what the composers grouping should have been and where they want the strong weak pulses to create the contour. A lot of composers these days use theory improperly and make rookie mistakes like this in an effort to look and sound like they’ve broken rules of theory or are really “out there” but in actuality it’s just bad compositing habits

[@ekcrisp1]

i absolutely love this song (and everything tigran does) but always wondered what was going on. Great video, would have been nice to hear the whole thing slowed way down to help hear these patterns a bit better

[@felipecardoza9967]

Um, the drummer is playing 2 different beats simultaneously? How in the hell.

[@wellurban]

Have we done Conlon Nancarrow yet?

[@The_RedVIII]

This is such an awesome song! Thanks for showing it to me, David!

[@lp-xl9ld]

Me: So Brubeck did a song in 5/4 and Pink Floyd did one in 7/4... David Bennett: Brother, you ain't heard nothin' yet

[@marioguarini]

the key of this song is that Tigran is a total genius

[@themc8769]

I thought it was f# minor

[@oznymusic]

Now I have that kookie little pattern stuck in my head. Thanks David. Lol I was obsessed with this topic in 2006 and made a whole album exploring different time possibilities including ideas like pentuplets and septuplets, and anti-time, but I had very insensitive ears at that time, playing in the experimental sound design idm& industrial realms kinda had me musically seeing the forest for the trees, so that album isn't very easy to listen to.. Sounds like a primitive computer got loaded up with a futuristic ai script that can be interpreted by old machines which make them sentient but this computer had a virus and so now the computer lives in a consciously compromised state. This makes me want to get back into rhythm-centric experiments. Great videos. Keep up the great work David.

[@chobies5383]

This sounds like menu music from a 2000's game

[@iau]

I think this style feels strange to us because of limitations in the western musical notation system. This is music based on repeating patterns and polyrhythms, not barlines. In music notation we WANT to put everything in a barline. You can _technically_ do it, but it ends up not working in a practical sense. I recommend Yogev Gabay's and Metal Music Theory's videos covering music by the metal band Meshuggah. This is the backbone of most of their music and it's also the core of many non-western styles. Those channels cover a lot about alternate ways of notating these rhythm styles, ways that make so much sense and make them easier to feel and internalize. It's fascinating!

[@Louis-in3qu]

this is madness ! love it

[@genequist3859]

Seems to me that claiming your song is in an absurd time like that is just pretentious nonsense.

[@CharlesRobitaille514]

I prefer the 35/16 to the 5/16 and 3/16..........but that's just me.

[@artonion420]

@Yogev Gabay, David is stealing your job!

[@lonesucculentradio6225]

I still think they should’ve kept the naming scheme and went with Pianoeo

[@kingstondayton3060]

Lars must have been drumming

[@batotskie3744]

There's a song by French artist Kurokotei called \frac{\textup{sig}=\frac{821}{149}}{bpm\approx533} which is in 821/149 time signature

[@GregorBarclay]

That sounds….kinda silly.

[@SPCooki34]

suggestion: video on 29/8 time signature

[@prepcoin_nl4362]

The piece is cool enough but only a prog dork who brags about what crazy meters they've written in would describe this as "256/16 time" The only way you could even believe that is if you have no conception of what hypermeter is (We don't go around describing the most common Western meter as "16/4 time") But even then, this sort of thing stops being impressive once you realize that it's written in a rhythmic cell technique. It's even kind of boring since if you let A = 5 and B = 3, all it really boils down to is [Ax4 Bx5]x7 A BB. Compared to what you can do with such a technique, it's kind of lacking in imagination. Anyway, good analysis. Thank you for covering it.

[@carolyncasner4806]

Drummers don't get enough credit for what they do.

[@bombasstard]

Great - I love this song, the whole album ... Now do "The Dance of Eternity" by Dream Theater 😀

[@lennyternil336]

Bro what

[@enricobuoso5171]

You can tell he's a big fan of Meshuggah

[@hamzailarzeg]

He actually said he is, and tool also

[@KingoftheJuice18]

This song is the epitome of the old saying, "It's got a good beat, but you can't dance to it"!

[@Dhakadice]

This is a pretty good tune, but for some reason, I have a hard time picturing a big audience dancing to it.

[@JDazell]

The kick drum is really irritating on that track

[@lilytwinklenoodle]

I love how the 4/4 on the drums was supposed to be this big plot twist but my silly little percussionist self immediately locked onto the hi-hat during the initial playthrough and went "Hey, isn't this just 4/4 with extra math?"

[@willbowling3744]

Nah bro just making stuff up at this point😭

[@WannabeFruFru]

Don't matter how often you upload, keep making dope content. Liked and subbed

[@TheGoose92]

Tigran is great. I discovered him last year. The album Mockroot that the track is on is worth a listen for anyone who likes prog jazz.

[@player12gaming89]

I don't know if you've done that already, but I'd love to see you analyze the intro of The Art Of Dying

[@tinch716]

Me walking to a jazz rehearsal with new people: I hope we play nice and easy standards The band leader: so this next one is in 256/16…

[@esosique5]

...and it follows the Giant Steps chord changes. Ready?

[@joermnyc]

The drums in 4/4 reminds me of a few Led Zeppelin songs where the song is in some odd time signature, but John Bonham couldn’t do the long division in his head, so he’s in 4/4 (Kashmir is an example, and several live versions of songs John switches the time signature to 4/4 because it’s too complex to play live.)

[@canadmexi]

I wonder if he'll ever do a video on 2/4.

[@guprovasi]

This confirms that I could never be a drummer 😔😅

[@DuyNguyen-ks8dc]

the moment i see the math and explanations coming up at 2:36 is the moment my brain explodes 🤯🤯

[@FairyCRat]

Tigran: okay man, here's the deal, we're doing 4 bars of 5/16, then 5 bars of 3/16, repeat that 7 times, then 1 bar of 11/16 and back to the start, alright? Arthur: fuck that, I'm just gonna play 4/4. Tigran: fine, but can you at least follow me with the kick? Arthur: sure :)

[@TracyParks]

interesting that 256 was chosen. it's a typical computer limitation due to byte size (0 - 255). can't be a coincidence.

[@TheGrenvil]

Music, like computers, is based on powers of 2, 256 is 2^8

[@joelwagg8314]

256 comes because it’s sort of in 4/4 really and there are 16 bars of it.

[@bambangnugroho6147]

Wow x²/x time signature

[@rodmac8358]

I stopped counting at 133.

[@oravlaful]

and here i was thinking musicians could only count to 4

[@missile9947]

This song is basically piano Meshuggah

[@michaelsophini6]

Laugh die. Keep up the good work David 💪🏻 Key signatures King

[@Rude_i_Wredne]

It feels most like a 35/16 over 4/4 truncated polymeter (so you play 35/16 over 4/4 until you get bored and you forcefully sync up). Still batshit crazy, but math-rock managable.