Tim Burton's World of Sadboys

[@MillyKKitty]

Half-way through when you started descriping the women Tim writes paired up with all sadboys deserving love of these women, I thought of how some Evangelion fans think that's what Ren and Shinji are... And low and behold, you made that exact same comparison, where HE is that kind of Evangelion fan.

[@morgantrias3103]

The problem with Frankenweenie is the same as the problem with the new Tim Burton Wednesday. Oh this character is an outcast cos they are a goth. Then they go to a gothic school where everyone is a weirdo. Ah, and there they finally fit in? No. There they stll are an outcast. Oh, howcome? Oh because they're a shithead.

[@KitCabaret]

"Growing doesn't wipe the hurt away, it just gives you more tools to deal with it." God, that line hit me so hard... I knew this was going to be a great analysis video but I didn't expect it to also speak so personally and honestly about the feeling of growing up as an outcast, about the reason why his works impacted us the way they did. I think Tim Burton's work was comforting because it was coddling, because it never challenged us to try and grow or find the strength within ourselves. In a way, I can also kind of understand the fear that Burton sadboys have of the outcasts who would accept them if just given the chance - in fact I kind of lived it, I spent so much of my life denying my own gender identity and felt almost afraid of the friends I had who embraced their own divergence, it was something about myself that I was scared of admitting. There's a sort of comfort in just assuming no one else would understand, without ever challenging that idea. Because growth is scary, but the alternative is placating.... That isn't the takeaway I expected, but I'm so glad it's what I got. This video is a masterwork and I hope it gets all the love it deserves, because it's a message that a lot of people deserve to hear

[@hooplah6177]

I don't kno why i never put together that Burton always cast Depp because he was the "me but prettier" wish fulfillment choice, but man that totally recolours everything. The one that jumps to mind is that scene from Alice in Wonderland where the Hatter asks "have I gone mad" and gets a little quaint "yep but thats why you're perfect" head pat and a trophy. My eyes have been pried open with bbq tongs.

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

I think he was influenced a lot by Danny Elfman’s aesthetic as well. Danny is obsessed with death and skeletons oh and he’s pale, even for a ginger.

[@redbluebae4397]

Y’all are such haters, he’s only human but I’m a INFP too soooo yeah

[@pagodrink]

I think you put the nail on the head when you said how Burton writes characters that are outcasts, but that also doesn't wanna be associated with other outcasts. I personally feel like this is also sadly a part of growing up and being in public schools, which is why some people can relate to this as well (The "I'm not like other kids, and hanging with teachers). I'm autistic and I went to a charter school for neurodivergent kids from about 6 grade to end of high school. Even when I was there, I didn't find myself relating to or growing close to any other students, mainly cause we didn't have similar interests or we didn't have good social behaviors (I was def an asshole most of the times, due to lack of knowing how to assert myself w/o being an asshole). This isn't to excuse this type of narrative from Burton, since as you said, he often insert the white lead as the only normal one. But it is fascinating to reflect on this, as I didn't have the tools I needed to make friends, even though I had the perfect environment to not be an outcast. Often times, watching this video I was thinking "Am I still the asshole like Burton? Am I too self absorbed even as an adult?" Which, honestly, I don't have an answer, I've def become more chill, but I feel like I'm not doing enough. That I'm isolating myself cause it's easy, because I feel like I don't have enough control in my life right now to change.

[@alexandreturcotte6411]

Yeah, I do feel like that too.

[@dandereninja4750]

For me it’s always been a fear of rejection that prevents me from being more assertive in person. I’ll stand up for myself if needed but when it comes to my interests I don’t share them with others out of a fear of rejection. There could also be the fact I may have had developmental issues that could have been helped with psychological help that I didn’t receive. Not that I blame my parents since they had their hands full with my siblings.

[@scootinkermie]

​@@dandereninja4750I just find it more "convenient" to be "normal" it's kinda tragic but I hate feeling like a complete alien and that's compounded by the fact that I hate attention

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

As an autistic I often find other autistics to be the worst and the meanest kids out there.

[@asia246222]

It's always strange when you outgrow your heroes, either by outgrowing their artistic sensibilities, or by looking closer and realizing you're just more emotionally mature than them now. At once validating and disappointing. This video essay captured that feeling perfectly, as well as being a great dissection of Tim Burton and his limitations as a filmmaker. Thanks for posting!

[@doggerlander]

Homestuck pfp in the wild

[@bevs9995]

exactly what kind of movies did you expect tim burton to make --- real horror movies? That would show 'emotional maturity and evolvement' ?

[@caseygurlen8450]

Ew homestuck

[@synth-wave_steve]

Oddly fitting with a homestuck pfp

[@tobiaslangly]

I think the biggest thing about Corpse Bride not clicking for me is its based off jewish folklore which i think is far more cool and gothic horror story than what this movie turned out to be. Guy took the jewish out of the jewish horror story. Edit: I just got to the part where you talked about the original story. Thank god someone else gets it. Wonderful video. I can not wait to see more.

[@RankaZer0]

Im sorry is being Jewish vastly different than anything else

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

He hired a Jewish songwriter for it though, I think in fact he even researched Russian-Jewish folklore just to find something to fit Danny Elfman’s heritage for him to do.

[@sylph8005]

@@RankaZer0 Quite a bit yeah

[@cannonballking7]

This is a fantastic essay which deconstructs both the works of Tim Burton, along with the man himself and his history. It can be a tough pill to swallow, the realisation that you have outgrown something (or someone in this case), which use to hold massive value for you, but this tackles that concept in a very interesting way, along with bringing a unique perspective to the critical evaluation of his filmography. Keep up the amazing work, and have a lovely day.

[@princessjellyfish98]

the Evangelion framing device is very funny and thematically works great with the subject of the video, but "you are (not) good at writing women" in the rebuild movie title format hits especially hard and is especially funny--that and Welles' speech overlayed with EoE, incredible stuff

[@MoonLitChild]

"That is a climax happening at someone" breaks a lot of the problems with modern film making down as a whole, not just as a personal problem Burton has as a writer, and I'm stealing it.

[@Gwen1661]

Burton was also an inspiring filmmaker for me during my childhood and teenage years, and a part of me can't fully let go of some of his filmmography because of how much it meant to me when I was younger. Alas, in many other aspects, I am also not sad to let him go. Buyt yes, let us all reclaim Jack Skellington for the internet.

[@gwasgray9309]

Why should you? Just enjoy the films for what they are, don't get hung up on what messages some people get from it.

[@teddybearkiller5271]

​@@gwasgray9309Can't agree more. I'm still going to enjoy Tim's movies and I don't give a f what this chick or anyone else says. 😤

[@404RaeNotFound]

I feel like Corpse Bride is in a similar situation as The Hunchback of Notre Dame. Whenever anyone expresses disappointment that Quasimodo didn't end up with Esmerelda, fans are quick to snap back with a Watsonian explanation; Quasimodo idealized her too much, Phoebus saw her for who she truly was, etc. But no-one steps back to look at it from a Doylist perspective and asks WHY a disabled, unattractive protagonist was written not to get the girl in the first place, in an era where that was the norm, no matter how justified it's made in the plot. I'd argue a similar phenomenon happens in the Corpse Bride fandom, where fans will say Emily didn't end up with Victor because "He loved Victoria" and "He would've been miserable" but not question WHY those story decisions were made in the first place, why a monstrous woman can't end up with the hero (especially since, as you've pointed out, it's very easy for Burton's male characters to be loved for their faults). And for the record, I love both films.

[@ah-sh9dw]

It's been 10 years since I watched them so I might be misremembering but the issue with emily and victor was that emily didnt love him. It was almost like a reverse manic pixie dream girl story. Emily thought she needed a husband to get closure so she latched on to victor but over the story she got that closure by coming to terms with her death and getting revenge. Once she had closure she left, victor and her were in different places so it wouldn't have worked out and she'd already got what she needed from him Quasimodo on the other hand did seem to love esmeralda, at least as much as you can love someone you've known for a weak. There was probably some level of idealization but no more than normal. In pretty much every disney movie the hero gets the girl so to have quasimodo be the one exception is pretty shitty, especially since she ended up with a guy who had such little screentime. If it was made by a different company I wouldn't mind so much but since it's Disney it just feels like the moral is that just because you're ugly and unlovable doesn't mean you can't convince your neighbors to stop throwing rotten fruit at you

[@THATGuy5654]

You: "They're the exact. Same. Length!" You and me, in unison: "What the hell?!"

[@amiefortman7220]

I think the best (or worst, depending on your perspective) example of "any outcast who isn't a Tim Burton analogue doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt" comes from "Batman Returns". It's hard to argue that Keaton's Bruce Wayne is the most well-adjusted human being, and he's certainly been through his share of trauma that he deserves a chance to heal from. But he still has love--between Alfred, both Vicki Vale and Selina Kyle, and the general admiration of Gotham City as a whole--and the narrative itself treats him with empathy. Selina Kyle and Oswald Cobblepot, on the other hand? Selina's reward after having a mental breakdown when her sexist boss's psychological abuse finally tips over into physical abuse... is killing herself so Bruce can be happy. Oswald's reward after being shunned by *everybody*, including his own parents, for his physical appearance... is killing himself so Gotham will be better off without him. And before that, they aren't framed very flatteringly, with Selina being a pretty beat-for-beat "hysterical woman" and Oswald being a disgusting freak and antisemitic caricature. So the unintentional (God I hope) message seems to be "some people are just too damn weird for this world, and they're better off not having to live in it"... thanks for that, Tim.

[@infinitesnowproductions]

Thanks for pointing this out because I did actually have to revise a line addressing exactly how Batman Returns handled this theme (and Mars Attacks to a slightly lesser extent) for brevity’s sake - more specifically how he frames Gotham as stupid for indiscriminately fawning over the Penguin’s front as an outcast trying to make something better out of his circumstances, even though it’s only framed that way because Tim is the DIRECTOR and knows the Penguin is lying. Like I’m sorry but is that not literally EXACTLY what you’ve been asking for this entire goddamn time

[@dumbumbumbum8649]

This is one of the worst reads of a movie I’ve ever seen

[@millythompsonfromtrigun98anime]

This video made me cry. Good job, you’re one of the most inspiring artists to me on this platform, bless you.

[@dagmartoons]

INCREDIBLY entertaining and well made video. There were multiple moments throughout watching this where I was just like "YES!! OH MY GOD YES!!" Particularly with that Corpse Bride/Urusei Yatsura comparison. I don't know how I never realized that until now 😆

[@MollyFox-gs3sl]

When you reached the Evangelion comparison I can’t believe I forgot I clicked on the video with the Neon Genesis Jack Skellington thumbnail

[@goldengamer-b2z]

Im going to be honest im glad this channel is still going espically when that lupin the 3rd video were great

[@mightyquin6831]

this is a very good video. its kinda eye opening, and validates some opinions under the rug. my mother loves Tim Burton and I love superhero films, so when we watched the original batman movie he made, we were shockingly bored and disappointed, because batman and bruce Wayne don't feel like the main characters entirely. and we could live with it. gotta say, you put so much thought and time into this, it inspires me to think! 10/10

[@georqedubyakush6066]

12:36 So basically, Jack Skellington was Randy Marsh in the afterlife?

[@AoiUsagiOtoko]

this is the absolute funniest way anyone could describe jack skellington because it's...disturbingly true

[@GelatinSkeleton]

i loved this so much! it’s really thoughtful and incisive. the way you tackled the character arcs in corpse bride was so good - gave me a lot to think about with my own writing! i also really felt it when you were talking about your high school experiences - i didn’t go to a performing arts school but i did go to catholic school and there was a lot of expectation for girls and boys to perform gender in very specific ways. as a closeted trans guy who hadn’t quite cracked his egg **and** undiagnosed autistic and adhd, just neurodivergent and queer as all hell in an environment that was supportive of neither, i also latched onto tim burton pretty hard for similar reasons. (i hope that’s not being too weird or gross or personal in the comment - i guess i just hope it helps you feel seen the way you talking about your experiences helped me, in a small way.) really beautifully done essay, wonderful surprise to hear the oddity roadshow crew, and definitely looking forward to whatever your next project may be. 😊

[@SongbirdAlom]

"Orson Welles: Kill him" made me spit my coffee. thank you for that. oh and thank you for being, like, the only other person who understands the plot of Phantom of the Opera. People who think its about a poor sad guy who didn't get the girl he "deserved" make me shudder.

[@VelkanKiador]

You know, despite this not being a Lupin the Third video I somehow managed to be surprised when I didn't hear you say "I am never talking about Lupin the third ever again... This is a lie" at the end. I am gonna need some time to getting adjusted to that one xD At least you're always there for me squarespace sponsorship TwT

[@tygerinthenight3255]

I think you fundamentally misunderstood the plot of Corpse Bride. Its not really Victor's story. Its Emily's story told through the lens of Victor. Its not about whether sadboy Victor gets his uncomplicated marriage to Victoria or just settles with Emily. Its about whether Emily will steal another's life and choices and happiness because hers had been stolen by past trauma. She had her life and her chance at love stolen from her by Lord Barkis. Then she decided to "wait for her true love to come set her free". When Victor accidentally marries her, she decides he is her reward for her past trauma, to the point where she is willing to kill him and disregard his choice (Victoria) and allow him to sacrifice his happiness for the sake of her own. At the end, she sees that she is just repeating her trauma upon another and realises that she is being the Lord Barkis of another's story. She stops him from making the sacrifice for her and prevents Lord Barkis from repeating the same trauma upon Victoria. If anything she is the sadGIRL of the story. Victor doesn't change much over the course of the story, because he is not the main character. Emily is.

[@Katrina830]

This is a lot of how I was feeling towards her analysis of the corpse bride & also the difference in how I received the movies story. This movie taught me at a young age that sometimes ur love for another will not always be reciprocated and that doesn’t mean u should trap a person to make u happy (even if u think it will help u heal a past trauma). + even if Emily and victor did marry and he died the reality in the story would be that most likely, Victoria would end up being killed by lord barkus and all three of them would be in the after life together and then given the choice victor may just end up leaving Emily and then she would still feel unloved. Even tho as a kid I always preferred Emily to Victoria when u look at victor and Victoria they have more incommon, strict upbringings and shared interests that they often don’t get the chance to openly share with anyone (+apart from also being alive) they can relate to eachother more then Emily and he did. Victor never understood Emily and could never giver her the love she desired. She released this and knew that if she did marry him everyone would be unsatisfied & potentially more people then victor would die from the outcome. (I’m writing this pretty late so I hope this made sense)

[@numb3r5ev3n]

I had been a Burton fan since Batman was in theaters, and I think the point at which I realized I had burned out on Tim Burton was with Alice In Wonderland. I saw the trailer and was suddenly just so tired of his aesthetic (maybe because Hot Topic had basically packaged and sold it back to us goths all during the late 90s and the 2000s.) It was a long time before I could make myself watch that movie, and that was when it hit me that all of his films are about the Twee Quirky Outsider Finding Acceptance (and no longer being an outsider anymore.) I'm not sure if I've seen any of his films that were made since then. Like if you had told me as a teen that he would make an adaption of Dark Shadows and that I would actively avoid it, I'd have thought you were crazy - but I did. And hoo boy, I loved Beetlejuice as a tween, but it did not age well. I've rewatched Batman and Batman Returns more than any of his other films, and I think they're my favorite. (Batman Returns is my favorite Batman movie of all the Batman movies, actually - or it was until The Batman last year.) But I don't think I've seen a new Tim Burton film since 2013.

[@Enshohma]

I know I'm doing the 'comment-before-you-watch' phopaw but I'm honestly excited to see your newest video here even if Tim Burton isn't an interest of mine... Though, I will admit, "Peewee's Big Adventure" is one of my all time favorites films ever made and arguably the director's best work though that may have more to do with an ensemble of talented minds before and affront of the camera. Watching the video now but please keep up the amazing work!

[@Kittypuppymeow]

You know an analysis is good when it makes you analyze your own self and life choices. Bravo! Yay!

[@StoryTeller796]

Honestly, I grew up with a variety of perspectives all around me, and what I didn't have I searched for and tried to understand. In fact, I grew up moving from niche culture to niche culture, from friend group to friend group, constantly making new acquaintances to new acquaintances and looking at as much stuff as I could. That being said, I do not know what to say about Tim Burton's small world and his regressive growth except that it honestly scares me more than anything else in the world, and I want to someday make something that details precisely why it scares me as much as it does. Maybe it's the fact that I could see myself, or that I am seeing myself, one bad day from slipping into his dark fantasy world, and after I've realized that countless times, I'm scared to leave it for one reason or another. I hope that when I make my 3 part film series with a game in the middle of it I can show everyone that the sooner you are done and ready to bury the past and move on to better things, the better for everyone and everything involved, especially yourself. The best that Tim Burton is capable of doing because he is not going to look back at his life and evaluate himself to move on and be a better person, is just retiring. Unfortunately, I get the feeling he will not stop and so he's nothing more than a zombie, a relic of a bygone dreamy era that never was and seems to never be. As C!Wilbur Soot once put it in the Dream SMP, "It was never meant to be." Actually, do you think that Burton's worldview rubbed off on Disney and other studios like them to create a sense of complacency in how studios like Marvel, DC, and Lucasfilms do their movies? Do you think that Tim Burton, in his "attempt to shake up the status quo" or carve out his own niche in the system, with his multitude of successes, accidentally created a toxic consumerist society within those studios and changed the entire mindset for those studios for the worst? I'm not saying that he caused it single-handedly though, I mean the bad times were going to come anyway whether or not he existed, I'm saying that he just grew the perfect environment to normalize the behavior of his archetype of characters and made people complacent with the status quo as long as it can be colored in a snazzy new coat of paint?

[@alejandrotti10]

Maybe I need to update my Tim Burton's catalogue, but from what I've gathered throughout almost all of his carreer, and by reflecting upon this video, is that only 5-to-6 characters nail to get along with their audience even after years (without taking in account Depp's acting skills). Like, Burton has one of the best Joker's out there, look how much time Beetlejuice actually was in his own movie, there's Emily who singlehandledly carried her own movie by a longshot, and there's the debate of if Jack and Sally are the only ones who can be belovedly remembered, or Oogie Boogie can fall upon that too. These characters (and maybe more if we scratch the barrel a little more) share three elements I consider the "outcasts" of his overall work. They embrace weirdness both in their own and in others, they enjoy what they are and what is around them, and they doesn't need to betray their morals to reach their director's tendencies. Joker, Oogie Boogie and Beetlejuice are a certain villain trope, but it doesn't make it less joyful to watch, while you can feel Jack and Sally enjoying their own story even with all the f*ck-ups they did (well, mainly Jack), and again, Emily was so alive for her own good that Burton and the producers had to vastly "nerf" her closing arc. In terms of Evangelion, you could say that these characters were the ending of the anime, with a bombastic "congratulations!" of the audience upon all these characters (and maybe the dog, becuase of course), while everything else this video had unfold is the grim ending of the movie. One couldn't exist within another, after all.

[@The_Coolest_Sock]

can NOT wait to watch this with my friends!!

[@The_Coolest_Sock]

Update: Finally got to watch this with my friends. We thought it had some novel and unique points and was very entertaining!

[@UberShyGuy]

it's really heartening to know that despite all the unresolved issues I have in my life, in my time on this earth, I have made exponentially more personal growth and become a better person than tim burton has had in twice as many years

[@YamiRenDM]

"because of all of the 'tism" whew, i felt that one sis

[@VirtualMarmalade]

Hello from cohost! Someone shared it over there and I'm glad I clicked on it bc it's a good take and a fresh breakdown of Burton's work/legacy in a way I haven't seen before. Good work :)

[@camilletorres-kelly628]

I don't know if you're aware of this, but Lady Emily did a video essay about Nostalgia Critic's Demo Reel which also factors Evangelion into it. Aaand Nostalgia Critic is a self-proclaimed fanboy of Tim Burton. As a former fan of both Burton and Critic, I would love it if you did a crossover with Lady Emily in which the two of you dissect NC's Alice in Wonderland episode and analyze how Burton's self-centeredness might've stunted Critic's development. Amazing video BTW. 50:16-54:18 has been playing repeat in my head since my first viewing.

[@pagodrink]

_"wake up babe, there's a new Infinite Snow Essay"_

[@extrahistory8956]

Let's fucking go! Another great video from _Infinite Snow Productions._ It sucks that your content doesn't have much more views, cause your _Mystery of Mamo_ video rapidly turned you into one of my favorite content creators in the web.

[@kefka14]

This is gonna sound like the most hipster ass thing ever, but I started liking Nightmare less than a year after it came out. I was ridiculed for it relentlessly for years, only to get into middle school and early high school and see this massive ass emergence in people obssessed with it, then I proudly dawned my Nightmare gear and was made fun of for being a "poser". Nice.

[@SuperShirikibros13]

Jack Skellington is not only the Pumpkin King. He's also the goofy goober king, king of the goofy, silly guys, a true goofy skeletons. He's also built like a stickman :)

[@SamChaneyProductions]

This was such a good video, it really puts to words how I feel about Burton's work even better that I ever could. I loved Nightmare so so much as a kid and tween and just felt sort of betrayed as everything he put out after it failed to affect me. I guess it was all of the other people who made that film that made it so good in my eyes

[@nickl2854]

I truly think of Nightmare as a Danny Elfman film rather than a Burton film (even if that isn’t close to accurate)

[@c.nelson3747]

@@nickl2854 It's a Henry Sellick film more than anything, but yeah, Danny Elfman is a lot of the draw for me too.

[@elaiynlie]

great video, I love how passionate you sound. 51:08 and onward is a really great section. also just want to say that this video inspires me to diverse the perspectives in my art, thanks for being educational !

[@kiwisugar281]

I just found this channel and it’s been nothing but a pleasant surprise. I can’t begin to get into it but the weird mental divorce a lot of fans have with Tim burton is so real and every point I’ve thought about it was wonderfully put in this video. Also great editing, it was pleasing and easy to follow 👍🏽

[@pitaalfereti58]

Yo wake up! A new Infinite Snow video!

[@korbit8323]

I don't even like Tim Burton, but your e-documentaries are good enough on their own to be interesting regardless of what you're talking about. MAJOR respect!!!!!

[@lydiafayre9806]

I want "I'm starting to think you don't even want a big titty goth girthfriend, *Tim*!" on a t-shirt.

[@ryancarless7921]

An awesome video about Tim Burton, love the homage to Evangelion as well. I think for me Tim is controversial but there are some films I enjoy just not any recent films

[@mileslugo6430]

It sounds like Tim Burton is a Byronic Hero with no idea how to get out of his own tragic ending leaving him to pity himself through his own art. Like when Teen Rick making blatant cries for help that can only come when he opens up through his art.

[@JadyLester]

Orson Welles destroying Woody Allen's character is wrecking me, I might have to just rewind that to infinity. I get those mean girl feelings, despite my strong identification with timid people, the ones with hidden egoes, they're like rabbits. I could crush them in my hand, but I'm supposed to coddle them. Agh! I've already taken back Jack Skellington as a bipolar icon. I am he, he is me.

[@tomhato5523]

Best KZbin video I’ve seen in a long time

[@nickl2854]

Super excited to delve into this one!

[@sierraphantom]

Awesome vid, my partner and I watched together! :D

[@box0choco593]

The reason I love corpse bride so much is just because it got me through a tough time so I thank it for at the very least that

[@LezCharming]

Amazing work! While I can't defend Burton utterly,I am sympathetic to a degree. There's been a sea change is our cultural idea of rebellion. He was a rebel,for his time. The idea has transformed,been rewritten completely. I'm a wheelchair trans girl,but I'll be called conservative someday. I imagine that world will be pretty cool though. Space catfolk and such. When one helps change the world,the inevitable price is that everything is changed,even your place within it. Burton needed to accept his new context. But the bell will toll for me.

[@abbie_joan]

we've really outgrown Tim Burton's egotistical behavior...i mean he slapped his name of Nightmare Before Christmas and HE DIDN'T EVEN DIRECT THE MOVIE HE WAS A PRODUCER.

[@blastbowman9026]

I feel like this has quickly become one of my favorite video essays in recent memory, it's such a great analysis and take down of Tim's creative mindset and it really shows how his fall from grace was, maybe not inevitable, but hard for him to avoid having it happen

[@blakechildress944]

51:00 LOL, HAHA This is so accurate!!! 😂

[@MixMasterLar]

Fascinating essay. Not a huge Burton guy, but thoroughly enjoyed the video

[@AoiUsagiOtoko]

victor was Baby's First Gender Envy for me as a kid and i am most definitely not proud of that lmao this video was utterly fantastic, i haven't seen many people touch on the self-insert nature of a lot of burton's male leads. if he were a woman doing this i feel like people would be a lot more critical of it but that also sucks in its own way because people do not like women having fun

[@blakechildress944]

I’ve always had an issue with Tim Burton’s films even though I liked them on a surface level but after watching this video I have a better understanding of what those issues were which were a lack of substance or a lesson in his films. So in conclusion Guillermo del Toro > Tim Burton.

[@solinvictus6562]

My favorite video essay youtube with two videos is now my favorite video essay youtuber with 3 videos 😢 They grow so fast...

[@MeeplandHeights]

I'm so happy for your corpse bride take. Honestly it was always easier as a young girl to self-insert into tim's male roles than pretty much any of his female ones. I hope we can see more women who grew up inspired by gothic imagery making their own films because it would be great to have a proper good gender-swapped beauty and the beast

[@LikaLaruku]

I haven't watched this yet, but I'm betting myself that Tim Burton's "Stain Boy" web series was not included.

[@RandomCollection04]

unless Burton gets cancelled for doing something actually heinous and disturbing, I'm gonna keep watching Corpse Bride

[@goomz8901]

No one told you couldn’t.

[@popburnsy3207]

Bless you for this one.

[@GabrielGarcia-qr5wm]

Since Lindsay Ellis left the Platform, you are my Favorite Video Essayist

[@georgijo]

I kinda need to hear a whole analysis about evangelion from you now.

[@wusstunes]

Thank you squares

[@angusmarlow5136]

One of my favorite video essays in a while keep up the amazing work 😊

[@kurathchibicrystalkitty5146]

This was an amazing video. I was never a fan of Tim Burton, and I could never quite figure out why I disliked his work. Now I know why. Could you do a video on Evangelion sometime, maybe on why people consistently seem to miss the point of it? That'd be great.

[@geo6398]

This is such a great video!

[@bleachgod1995]

Huh... You grow up with more tools to deal with the past. That's a whole new way to look at it. I thank you full heartally for giving me something new to really think about. I never been good with putting my feeling into words and like to do things in person. Please continue making videos. These are the tools I'll need.

[@chaosdestructionlove]

I'm living for this recent uptick in pointing out the problems with burton's work. I've spent the last two decades confused by people loving some of these films (i did really love corpse bride and nightmare before christmas as a kid) bc things like alice feel so...fake i guess? I really didnt enjoy the film at all. The recent video essayist i watched recently that pointed out how he seems to have abandoned his own self estwblished outsider status for money with his modern directoral works. That and yknow, it dont half feel weird to hesr someone call themselves an outsider artist when they have been consistenctly one of the most popular, successful sometime unduly so when news started attributing directoral credits towards him thst were actuslly anothers. I do agree that coprse bride is an incredibly stilted, awkwardly written story. Like...the actual outline is fine but the execution just doesnt work entirely. (The sombre drawling songs really made me feel uncomfortably awkward, i remember skipping all but emily's and the cool bone song when i was listening to it simply to hear them again ) It never quite felt satisfying for me,despite how i really liked aspects of it. I guess the irony is the counter culture aesthetic he built around himself feels less genuine these days,especislly when applied to specific gothy/shy groups while at the exclusion of other groups (like the noted lack of lgbtq+ or bipoc folks in his stories ) and it starts to feel very...not like other boysy while he sits in his mansion making money from now famously terrible disney modern live action remakes.

[@khimeraQ]

I come back here about once a month to hear that Orson Welles quote again. I feel it too much in my day to day life.

[@ButchBirdie]

I was wondering how I hadn't heard of you before, then I realized you've only been doing this for a year!! You're making incredibly high-quality stuff for someone who's only been in the video essay game for a year or so. Can't wait to see all of your stuff as it comes out!

[@Leah-vg2vo]

I can't and won't defend Tim but put his name on anything and I'll eat it up. I'm kinda just at a point where I don't care if the story is simple, the characters are simple, there are no archs, the women are just pretty. I don't care anymore. It's so fun to watch and I won't stop. I loved this video though.

[@kennethphillips6006]

Thank you for this.

[@Rattleboneses]

I have watched this before a few times, but somehow until this viewing I had missed the Unicron at 8:55 and it yeeting my soul from my body

[@erzascarlet8294]

Time Burden

[@tylerwesterfield6998]

This is a comment encouraging you to make more content. I enjoy these deep dives on dense media, and you have a pleasant and animated voice. I wanna hear your opinions and about stuff you care about. Kerpow.

[@820krose]

26:49 can someone point in a direction to read about emily before burton? My googlefu is not strong enough

[@infinitesnowproductions]

My sources were the original draft of the script which I found online (penned by Caroline Thompson) and some storyboards which were reconstructed and put on KZbin - as I briefly mention but couldn’t really get into, a lot of the stuff that was revised in development portrayed Emily as much more clingy and defensive about their marriage even when Victor was being relatively clear about his boundaries. One big plot change of note is that Emily learns about the loophole in their marriage (that their vows are only binding “til death do us part” and Emily being dead consequently renders those vows moot) and tries to trick Victor into redoing the ceremony properly by drinking the poison, rather than Victor learning about it at the same time as Emily and choosing to do it himself.

[@kayleejazz1669]

I’m curious if you’d consider doing a video on corpse bride, and going more into detail about your complaints about the film. I think the reason they made Emily choose is because the audience wouldn’t like Victor if he choose Victoria instead of Emily.

[@serse8455]

Hey, Shinji is cute, leave him be

[@zacbrown3797]

51:32 thank you for spoiling neon evongaleions i cant spell it

[@ASMRcomic]

So happy to have found your channel, you deserve way more views!

[@doggerlander]

Its over for Burtoncels

[@thegoat20066]

Awesome video!

[@mrthiel1967]

Watched the part about Frankenweenie and said "wait, is this kid also named Victor?" It is...

[@TheyLoveThemLLC]

Yesssss the relation to Nge!!! Great vid!!!

[@SailorMya]

This was wonderful! I think people who resonated with Tim were people who saw themselves in the oddities of society and his work seemed to reflect that with a side of society, not necessarily changing, but becoming accepting of them for whatever reason. In hindsight, it is a super shallow portrayal of what any black sheep wants with no reflection on them because being odd is perfection in his eyes so why change them... This is why Tim has started to fade and is watered down to tell others stories. I give more credit to Jenna Ortega for Wednesday because she had to fight against them to change things, she gave us the show we got where Tim is just a shell of his former self pumping out basic stories threw the "Burton filter". He has fallen and others have risen to take his place!

[@kakerumanabelover]

Thank you for this incredible introspective piece. I knew for the last few years I enjoyed tim burton movies (I fizzled out with the disappointment of Alice in wonderland) something was off, but I couldn't quite pin it down. The racism and bland whiteness of everything is one thing, but the fact there's a lack of character growth or depth definitely makes me reconsider every piece of writing I'm working on. Also watching the people behind Corpse Bride call her "Corpse Bride" and not Emily was incredibly upsetting, like she wasn't her own character but a plot device, but yeah, I guess that's what she ended up being

[@justdrums8273]

Inssert here that meme of Danny Elfman's carrying Butron's career

[@dollfaceddreadnaught7501]

This was so phenomenally good. It was so cathartic to hear you describe the way you felt about Corpse Bride, it just really put my experience into words. Also, was not expecting to have such delicious Evangelion vindication there towards the end. I immediately went to your uploads to see if you had any vids on it. I'd honestly love to hear you talk at length about Evangelion, it's such a treasure and it hurts to see it recognised as a rubber halloween mask version of itself rather than by its true face... if that makes any sense. XD

[@gojisaiyan87]

4:38 ULTRA-MAN!!!

[@SuperDuperVision]

Well done. Listened during my cardio. Got a supporter in me

[@ameferreira]

58:10 whats the name of this lovely song?

[@Seloliva1015]

I have not seen evangelion, but you sold it really well! Oh and Tim Burton kinda sucks now that you talk about it, I had never noticed how surface level many themes are, and how he kinda sees the "wirdos" of the world...

[@DiscoTimelordASD]

I really appreciate this video. It was very thought provoking.

[@slimesplash_wiz]

I really wanted to like Burton's movies when I was younger, for the aesthetic mostly since I was a bit of a goth teen myself, but when I was actually watching them I couldn't help but think "meh" and I couldn't place the reasoning into words ... except Corpse Bride, it used to be one of my absolute faves when the discussion of Victor's blandness started I was trying to think of an excuse for him but I couldn't, you're right he really is a sad boy who gets cool girls and I'm embarrassed to admit that's why I liked him in the first place, especially as a trans egg teen who was shy and indecisive too, but didn't often see male characters like that be shown in such a positive light; at the time it made me hopeful it was possible to be a weakass awkward guy and still be likeable and get all the good things although I'm glad I realize it now being older, and it's not really a kind of a guy I want to be anymore, I hope I've grown past that; it is a bit sad if Burton never got past that phase

[@Desertjackel9]

I loved her take on evangelion but I’m wondering if there are any videos that expands on those themes?

[@itsmarthai]

Fantastic video, just found your channel, so good

[@yhdefault2929]

raw af orson welles quote and yeah Batman '89 is badass as shit

[@nonilazuli6150]

Can someone tell me the end song