Tim Schafer’s Ultimate Push For Transparency With PsychOdyssey - MinnMax Interview

[@minnmax]

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[@purplehaze47]

The interviews you’ve been doing on the series feels like hidden DLC that’s essential to decompressing from the series - that thing about Tim not being around because he was trying to make sure they could hit payroll is huge and makes so much sense as to why his presence wasn’t felt during parts of production Him talking about undoing the last 20 years of stress genuinely made me emotional as well, so glad to know one of my heroes is at the point where it’s “oh I don’t need to worry about making sure people get paid anymore”

[@Hugop_arts]

Lmao that’s the best analogy for this content

[@curtisbme]

"that thing about Tim not being around because he was trying to make sure they could hit payroll is huge and makes so much sense as to why his presence wasn’t felt during parts of production" Yeah, that was something I was confused by. All they were showing in the first half was Tim being talked about but rarely around. His presence came across more like some exec that likes to come into occasional product meetings to "add value" by randomly throwing out ideas, creating more pointless work, and then wandering off wondering how the team could do it without their greatness. (ok not quite that extreme, I've just had to many dealings with those types of execs..) They mainly just would indicate that he is "writing" as though that is all he did for years. He could have put out 5 Stephen King sized novels if the amount of time he was missing from the doc was just writing.

[@JonnyBriers]

the conversation about anna really broke my heart... definitely the saddest part of the documentary for me, it seemed like she really didn't want to leave. At least she seemed happy from what we saw in the last couple of episodes.

[@MaybeNotPayton]

Just finished the doc today! Tim Schafer is wild to me, because he's one of those gaming guys who has been the face of a company for so many years, people tell him he's an auteur, his employees tell him they grew up with his games, and yet he still doesn't seem like an asshole? So often those kind of studio heads (not naming names) let ego get in the way, but I don't see it. Maybe I'm wrong and he's secretly a monster, but I hope not lol Anyway, another banger interview, Ben.

[@hikaruyoroi]

Minnmax is killing it this week.

[@hikaruyoroi]

But also please make sure to take care of yourselves and don't overwork!

[@minnmax]

Thank you, please tell a friend!

[@jeffd2118]

​@@minnmax I have no friends, can I tell my mom?

[@JohnnyRetroInc]

@@jeffd2118 💀 lmao.

[@dandinkler6315]

@16:46 Tim says "someone else would just be messing this up differently." And I like that

[@cwatcher8500]

I really appreciate Tim’s perspective here, I know it’s jokey but he’s right in how he calls Jason out. Both Jason and 2P have the same goal, to help share that Game development is complicated, and people are complicated. Where they differ is I think Jason tries to come to a conclusion, whereas 2P are able to let things sit. Tim is right to call out Jason coming to conclusions like Tim being a bad leader. And Tim is right to say that managers are people too. Big fan of both Tim and Jason’s work, to be clear. Thanks to MinnMax for this week of content, so happy to hear Tim say this won’t be the last documentary of this sort.

[@Cyrribrae]

Haha Tim got a little spicy in this 😳. Great questions Ben and fascinating answers. I have a great deal of respect for Tim and also for everyone who both "gets to" AND "has to" work for him haha. The Andy answer is surprising not in how he feels, but how honest he chooses to be about it publicly. And it looks like he's holding back a lot too. Wild. Very cool interview. And awesome coverage of an amazing project about a really cool team of imperfect people who created an incredible game after screwing it up a lot first - and also all the way through. Loved it all!

[@ChrisLT]

I used to think it was kind of strange that Tim likes to document so much, but man, I'm glad he's so supportive of this sort of stuff. I grew up watching any behind-the-scenes footage I could find for an album or movie, and I'm so glad DF has stuff on par with my favorites. The Broken Age documentary was fantastic when I backed that project, but PsychOdyssey was unbelievable.

[@nekokna]

I feel these interviews are amust see companion piece to the documentary,thanks minmax!awesome work!

[@minnmax]

Thats' the goal, thanks so much!

[@tyler2010]

​@@minnmax it's pathetic and shitty that you're gonna call your 1 week with 3 hours of interviews and discussion a "companion piece" to a 30 hour doc that took 7 years to make. Why can't you just appreciate the doc without trying to make it about minnmax content?

[@peppydisc1935]

Alright Ben, y'all have more than earned it with this week of content, I'm upping my Patreon pledge. Bravo.

[@minnmax]

Aw, thanks so much Peppy! That's a direct line of support so we appreciate it.

[@adamdraws]

I was about to write a comment on the spoiler cast that you should interview Tim so I'm happy to see this!

[@kacman11]

absolutely insane turnout of truly insightful content on a project that really deserved it, lets fucking go

[@minnmax]

Thanks, any help spreading the word is appreciated!

[@armblaster]

Found this series of videos on PsychOdyssey and Psychonauts 2 after watching the doc. You all did a great job covering the doc. I thoroughly enjoyed watching this "dissection" of the game and documentary series. Thank you!

[@minnmax]

Right on, glad you found it! Thank you!

[@Corybander]

This helped me appreciate Tim post-documentary. Seeing him outside the project. He was well spoken.

[@mikexh2o]

You can tell he’s developed over the last two/three years as a leader for sure

[@TheRealNoobSauceG7]

Just finished the documentary and starting the Minnmax coverage...What an epic journey! First off, I need to thank Ben for NON STOP talking about this, like if he only mentioned it once or twice, I would have thought "that's neat, maybe eventually", but the nonstop praise made me finally watch it, and I am glad I did. Second, just the amount of work that went into this documentary and game is incredible, thank you to the Double Fine team and 2 Player Productions! All the ups and downs of these past 6 years of making the game are incredible, people leaving, Starbreeze trouble, Microsoft acquisition, crunch culture, the Lead Designer leaving, and of course COVID, it is just staggering how much real "drama" (I can't think of a better word) was in the making of this incredible game. I loved playing Psychonauts 2, really is a magical game, and there just aren't a lot of games like it, so I am very glad for all of the sacrifices and struggles but also joy they went into making the game. Thank you to all!

[@minnmax]

Thanks so much for this comment and for checking out all of the content!

[@TheRealNoobSauceG7]

@@minnmax Love what you all do! Keep up the awesome content!

[@Coral_skies]

An interview with Tim Schafer? Amazing! This is so cool! Absolutely loving the awesome content at MinnMax this week! 🎉

[@minnmax]

Thanks so much, Keegan. Tell a friend!

[@quiet451]

Loving all this coverage! And I'm glad that Tim brought up that this kind of documentary is a GOOD thing. Transparency about development leads to positive change.

[@popltree2]

Tim got a lot of respect points from me around Anna leaving. I know a lot of managers that would have taken that footage to see what was going on in the meetings but he had the prescience to realize that the doc then becomes a surveillance tool which is what it should never be.

[@pixelhotdish]

Holy moly, this week has been great for content... well, even more-so than usual. Fantastic stuff! Ill keep pushing this stuff to those I think will enjoy this type of content.

[@minnmax]

Thanks so much, Pixel! We really appreciate it.

[@dopojun7915]

How does Tim come up with these similes to explain the things he's talking about? They seem so off the cuff yet so relatable and relevant.

[@JustinShands]

He's a very funny/smart/creative guy who creates entire worlds with nuanced characters that are full of symbolism, so it's not entirely surprising, but I agree it's impressive how he rarely seems to get in the middle of a metaphor/simile and then says, "nevermind, that doesn't make sense". Part of me also suspects that he frequently talks with lots of people about all of these subjects, so he's probably had a lot of time to refine many of these similes, basically, he's been doing game development for over 30 years, and in that time been involved in some of the most interesting games, so I'm sure he's had a lot of time to polish some of these stories just by nature of sharing them with people for so long.

[@adamgormley]

Ben’s passion for PsychOdyssey on the podcast is why I had to check it out. Turns out he’s right, best thing ever! Thanks Ben for the really insightful interview

[@CosmicTavern]

Was hoping this was coming. Awesome!

[@TAHK0]

Love these interviews and this is one of the best

[@minnmax]

Thanks so much, Tahko!

[@binklebinks5498]

A really great interview, awesome job Hanson

[@TMoneyOG]

The documentary is already one of my favorite, most inspiring pieces of art. This week of interviews and content has made me love it even more. Thanks, Ben, for championing the documentary and this week of celebration!

[@GoufinAround_]

I haven't gotten a chance to watch the documentary, but I really have to say that I appreciate the transparency a lot. Psychonauts is one of my favorite games and Psychonauts 2 was an unbelievable sequel that was somehow better than the original

[@victoreguerra]

This is Ben Hanson's week! You're killing it!

[@Hugop_arts]

What a great cap to this week. Asked many questions that bubbled up for me as I watched the doc. But honestly lowkey surprised you didn’t ask one last time why did that one publisher name get bleeped haha

[@Luffy2008]

I haven't played psichonauts yet, but minnmax covering this documentary in such a big way made me jump in and watch it, and this documentary truly is a masterpiece. I'm on episode 11 right now

[@Dukefazon]

Wow, a Tim Schafer interview!? That's awesome! I can imagine how starstruck you might feel when you talk to your hero! Or maybe you are just a pro at this point you do it without a flinch :)

[@intense79nick]

Perfect way to end bingeing the doc series and your coverage. My only tiny gripe is HOW COULDN'T YOU ASK WHY THAT STUDIO GOT BLEEPED?!

[@BooBanana]

I think Tim strongly hinted that it was Konami. The timing matches up when they decided to stop making games

[@cloudcollector83]

Awesome interview Ben! I just finished the documentary yesterday and only a few weeks before I watched the making of / appendices of the Lord of the Rings trilogy again. I found so many similarities, not just in how candid both docs are but also in how similar the creation process felt to me: The friendship/relationship between the devs/cast captured over several years as well as the fact that just like Tim, Peter also kept trying to squeeze in more things very late in the production and his team tried everything to make it work. Both the trilogy and Psychonauts 2 were only possible because of how much respect (and affection) the staff had for their bosses. In a way, Tim Schafer seems to be like the Peter Jackson of the gaming industry. I mean, how can you not like the guy?

[@mysteriousdbzgt]

Great interview!

[@jacksonarnold27]

look at ben man so inspirational

[@yfytfghhfg9514]

IDK why more gaming outlets are covering this documentary, only reason I know about it is by hearing Ben talk about it through the years, shame it's not being celebrated by more outlets. but so glad this week we got so much follow-up content to help paint a complete picture of it all.

[@brookefeely3684]

It's wild watching this, watching Tim speak - and then when he discusses how your when your body is at peace it starts drip-feeding out the stress you've been ignoring, I suddenly had my own realisation of "HOLY SHIT, that's what I'VE been going through for the past 6 months" and had no idea. Of course it would come from a Psychonauts-related discussion. As Khris says in the doco at one point, "All of Tim's games are about healing" - and that comes out in his peripheral content too.

[@TRUEfoe]

Wow! So impressive!!

[@Zeouterlimits]

Truly a great interview, thanks Ben (and all involved).

[@JustinShands]

I hope the Double Fine "company values" document also includes additional context or examples. As Tim said, a lot of the reason behind those things get "lost to time", and it's a lot easier for new people to fully grok those values if there are concrete justifications for why those things are important, otherwise it can wind up just being a "well meaning mission statement" and not an actual guide to success at the company.

[@johnbowen7314]

The documentary is awesome, and has me itching to play the game again.

[@nyolls]

Good stuff. They w/out 100% question should have had a brief convo about Zak and that whole situation. I obviousluy understand there's a lot you can't say in terms of detail, but there's a lot you can say too. Not touching on the biggest elephant in the room of the entire doc makes it seem even worse. 🤷‍♀

[@Hamerparsa]

Find someone in life who loves you the way that ben loves this series 😂

[@KB92]

F ing legend

[@Daniel-ec8fj]

tim schafer is one of the coolest people on earth.

[@brainfreeze10]

Fantastic Interview. As always, I would have loved it to be longer (Does Tim remember why that one name was bleeped? How does Tim feel about the crunch talk that people felt more comfortable having when he wasn't around - implying that maybe he hasn't earned quite as much trust as he thought?), but I really appreciate the discussion. I disagree pretty strongly with Tim on his view about people leaving near the end of a project. I've been on those projects where a lead leaves near the end of the schedule and I've had to pick up the slack, and I can't remember ever having any ill will towards the person leaving. Sometimes I'll be a bit frustrated towards management's inability to plan for the possibility through cross-training and information sharing to avoid single points of failure, but I don't think anyone owes it to their company to stay for one second longer than they'd like to. Obviously, the more heads up about a departure the better, but they shouldn't stick around for months and miss an opportunity just because a game is nearing release. The way Tim talks about the generational gap in the studio and how he should have handled that better is interesting, but the way he phrases things about the new hires sometimes.... lol, I can imagine why he would be frustrating to work for at times. But at the same time, his commitment to transparency is worth so, so much, and sometimes you just have to take the good with the bad there, I guess.

[@Twinson1]

Thanks for the perspective. I'm thinking about leaving my company and am in a similar situation. I feel guilty about going since I'm the lead engineer (the equivalent of a lead programmer), but I'll make >60% then my current salary, so it's hard to pass up the opportunity. Tim's opinion on the matter shook me a little. Especially when he said "professionalism," which is something I strive for.

[@brainfreeze10]

@@Twinson1 I was recently laid off and my feelings on this have only strengthened. Your company does not care about you and will drop you in a second if they decide it's mpre profitable. You owe them nothing, get your bag.

[@michaelrfx7]

Wow this is awesome!! Tim freakin Schafer!! I love the realness of it all, great job Tim and I wish you major success on your next game that I will certainly buy and experience!

[@michaelrfx7]

Incredible job Tim and Ben!!

[@aldoelektrika]

I love that he shits on Jason Schreier constantly.

[@kaasronald3623]

excellent interviewer. but man i just wanna know how zac is doing

[@user__214]

56:27 That's four C's, Tim.

[@Deirdre1993]

Tim seems like a generally cool dude but kinda disagree with his perspective about leaving projects. I mean I get that it sucks but the reality is you are still ultimately selling your labor power to work somewhere. One of the problems with studios that are more open and personality driven like this is that can get lost very easily.

[@mattceccotti]

Sorry can someone explain the jokes about Jason Shreier? I don't understand the context...

[@carlosflores-gaytan1589]

Jason Schreier was a guest in one of the other discussions MinnMax had, I haven''t listened to that one yet but i assumed Tim is reacting to his takes from there.

[@NeedlessNick]

He had basically called tim at least as presented in the doc as coming off as not the best lead of a team and studio. I will say that it was in the context of how it may look marketing wise, not just a statement in of itself

[@curtisbme]

Documentary is amazing but I would never want to be in one in the workplace unless I got final edit for anything that involved me.. You don't know what moments they are going to pick or not. You don't know if they start trying to create a narrative to make it more interesting even if that narrative is essentially false or minor in relation to everything else. I just see far, far more risk for negative impacts to your career than any possible upside.

[@TheRealBossMoss]

Why didn't you ask any spicy stuff about Zak McClendon?!

[@Siwkann]

I'm the like n°500

[@s0matando]

45:40 Tim couldn’t afford to get COVID before the acquisition 😂

[@Ratigan2]

Why two n's?

[@minnmax]

We're based out of Minnesota.

[@Ratigan2]

@@minnmax Ah, thanks!

[@jeffriesmovies]

“2 player had a birds eye view, they could have connected the dots” no!! You are either big brother or you’re making a documentary, it is one or the other!!

[@TwoandaHater]

I wish he had pushed back on what Tim said. On the Andy thing, I guess he would never ever fire a lead producer/programmer in the last 6months then, either... Also, he was willing to pay the salary increase Andy got at the new job for those 6months? Something tells me no to either of those.

[@VG-fr2vy]

How can you test negative already after getting Covid from the Dice Awards? Wouldn’t you test positive at least a few weeks afterwards, even if you’re not sick anymore? Edit: it might be possible after some google searching. I thought everyone tested positive for weeks afterwards

[@dirtrobot]

Tim is in serious denial about why things went wrong on the project. The poor producers had no way to enforce any kind of process or accountability so they ended up making the same mistakes over and over. When new people came in with better process knowledge they were seen as 'conflicting with core values' and got fired. Like they crunched like crazy and never could admit it. On top of that Tim refusing to delegate any creative work bottlenecked everything, he needed to be in every meeting - that's why auteurs suck. He doesn't at all get how people leaving the studio was a decision that brewed for months, they didn't just suddenly wake up and think 'I'm going to wreck the project by leaving.' They were ground to dust by Tim's childlike view of game development and had nothing left to give and needed to leave because they were going to lose their minds dealing with the DF insanity.

[@funkysloth2902]

Man it's so good to hear a podcast without that dumbass rising intonation everyone is doing. Thank you.

[@tyler2010]

This is just getting stupid. We get it Hanson, you liked the documentary. Now you've gotta make it your whole personality now so people know that you care about video games more than they do.

[@dandon1968]

whoa, he sounds really sick. hope he's ok. psychodyssey though, i don't really like it. i like my docs more factual and process focused than narratives that is heavily edited. 20:33, 20:42, funny how tim said it's not that, but that is exactly the product that i watched on youtube. also not really a fan of the fact that 2 player production is basically double fine's employees. thinking about it, psyhodyssey is closer to propaganda video instead of people from the outside looking in doing objective examination of a company. edit: just finished the interview, i think it's much better than the doc. tim is a great interviewee and ben got good explanation/side notes out from tim on many things that happened in the doc, including his vision of what the doc ought to be. but i think watching this interview without watching the doc will make you think that the doc is good, when in reality it is a flawed doc.

[@RobVespa]

All the comments here... so many suffering from memory loss.

[@RobVespa]

Tim Schafer... transparency? Oh ye of little memory and euphemisms. Tim Schafer, once a golden child of video game lore, fell from grace for being exactly the opposite (AKA didhonest) and for being unethical and shady as ****. Everything he touched now is tainted. The end. On a closely associated tangent, Spacebase DF-9 just received an official unofficial patch yesterday, after 7 long years, via hero Steam user Skenners.

[@cwatcher8500]

Mind explaining?

[@peterpiper4803]

What are you talking about?

[@PredictableEnigma]

Are you still mad about Broken Age release schedule?