Time & Materials Maintenance

[@jjchello]

The best part of this is educating owners that they are the ones in charge! Too many take the assumption that a shop is the authority because they are licensed for that subject matter. But this about a license for the practices, not the decisions. Insist on work orders for every aspect of the relationship.

[@dennisnbrown]

I find the concept of a Maintainance club, a great idea for the right group of people. I have never thought of that one. Regarding current state of aviation, repair shops, I say stick with the three rules that Mike described a solid “system with signed estimates would be great on an individual basis.

[@joaomanno]

Thank you Mike for one more webinar!

[@stevespra1]

I had a similar situation (albeit on a much smaller scale) where a shop charged 40 hours to change one jug. I was pretty upset as well, but in the end all I could do was calmly let them know I would never be back. In business, all you have is your reputation. I don't understand how these types stay in business.

[@AwestrikeFearofGods]

They sound highly profitable to me. It might be harder for them to stay in business if more people name-dropped them when complaining.

[@stevespra1]

@@AwestrikeFearofGods Good point. Air America Aviation Services at KTDZ

[@sblack48]

So why did a paint job cost $50k instead of $20k? Did the shop know all along it would be $50k and they were just trying to sucker him in? Or was there an unforeseen problem like corrosion or it took much longer to strip the paint or they had to do extra prep work for some reason? Or were they just incompetent at estimating? On an engine overhaul you never know what you will find but on a paint job I can’t imagine why a shop would be off in its estimate by 150%

[@CatarineausArmory]

Somewhat of a sad report card for MX shops I have been a contract mx my full career and provided the owner with 3 squawks after an inspection; 1. This is broken and does not meet type design 2. This is deteriorating and if you do not fix it soon you will throw more $$$ at it and what it breaks 3. These items are cosmetic and up to you. You can fix them on the weekend over the next several months and they will not harm or effect another system. I have not had a customer that I can remember that did not want most if not all these items taken care of.

[@Josh-dr3fj]

As mentioned in an earlier comment I'm still in the process of getting ready to go to school for my A&P. After i have a few years under my belt I'd love to start a shop with that idea of a fixed client list, boutique style. I also like that maintainance club idea, I almost wonder if it would be feasable to modify a flying club to accomidate a dedicated mechanic program. I feel like all of these ideas, the club approach, the fixed cost model, and the boutique provider approach, are all very valid. This from the outside coming into the world of GA this seems crazy to me that this ISN'T how this usually works.

[@lisaleedavidson]

In regard to the maintenance technician shortage there is a simple solution. Reduce the hours required to take the A&P test so people like me can go to Baker’s and get certified. It’s so ridiculous that FAA changes rules and creates their own issues. Had I the foresight I would have taken the A&P back when a weekend course got you certified. No hours needed, just course and test. We allow experimental builders to do their own work, should be a plane specific certification for certified aircraft. Eliminates the need for experience in jets where you’re not going to be working on them. This would save a lot of money.

[@alje311]

As an airline mechanic I am against this, the current program weeds out the caliber of people you do not want wrenching on a transport category jet. Students need to have a fundamental knowledge when they hit the hangar or line.

[@marknielsen8738]

Agree and the model exist and is so simple. Use the same model, rules and requirements as the pilot citification system. As a single engine, non-complex, VFR private pilot no one expects me to be able to handle a 747. Do the same for A&P's. The basic A&P can start with as little as a single engine, under say 200 hp, etc. etc. think C-150 to 180, PA-??? and so on. From this point forward an A&P get's education and certification for whatever that A&P wants and cost are controlled.

[@timbozesus4302]

I would do the same.

[@JFirn86Q]

Agreed. Counterproductive. Just like the 1500hr rule. No dummies, we aren't trying to get an A&P to wrench on a 747.

[@sampatrick5026]

"grotesquely over maintained" is not at all what I have seen. Quite the opposite. The average age of the GA fleet in the USA is 50+. I am an A&P/IA.

[@TheReadBaron91]

If GA goes the way of Savvy, it ain’t getting better.

[@timdykes6675]

We need some general aviation, friendly representatives in Congress .

[@FlyingNDriving]

55:30 type clubs should start or have flat rate hour manuals for common repairs. That would be a good starting point/negotiating tool for owners to discuss with shops. Similar to how we know most shops can put a jpi in about ~25-40 hours. You can't expect a shop to have hour estimates for every obscure type and model airplane.

[@stevespra1]

This sounds like something right up Savvy's alley. Savvy MX could organize this and recruit members initially from their existing pool of aircraft owners.

[@Trump985]

I haven’t even watched the video yet but I know a little something about time and materials in the construction business. If anyone wants to charge Time and Materials Don’t walk RUN RUN away and fast as possible! Every construction company I’ve worked for would sandbag a time and materials job to the point were a 2 day job would take a few weeks or months. They would put on all kinds of extra men and equipment on the job and work as slowly as possible sometimes spending half the day moving equipment back and forth as slowly as possible. Time and materials equals RUN like hell!

[@sjaviation]

Flat rate is a bit different than this. Each vehicle has its own amount of Labor required for those set jobs. The shop doesn't typically end up eating any variation, the mechanic does. Now if the mechanic gets it wrong, the shop will typically eat the parts, and the mechanic will typically have to perform the labor for free.

[@sjaviation]

Mechanics also get paid on that flat rate basis, they are not paid by the hour typically.

[@alje311]

Many mechanics I know got into aviation because they got sick of the flat rate system in automotive. It was terrible if it was a slow day or a major problem that went beyond the time alloted by flat rate.

[@TheReadBaron91]

If they think they’re flat rate idea, will fix anything specially in the mechanic shortage area and they are going to be surprised. Not like GA mechanics make much money anyways unless you will find a lucky shop. If the shop is gonna charge flat, they’ll have no choice but to pay that way either. Im no longer in piston GA, but I’d be out the door the second that happened and just go to auto where you have far less liability.

[@stevepierce]

Watching the webinar, I have seen quotes for $100k plus for a TCM IO-520. Let alone 2. Most new glass panels I have seen as of late are well over $100k as well. Curious how you can get two IO-520, paint, glass panel for $200k? Also why did the Bonanza paint job go from $20k to $50k? More questions than answers.

[@jjchello]

For real. As soon as I saw the $200k I knew immediately that was not a viable quote in the 2020s. Buyers need to come to the table equal with the shop.

[@flyingcountryboy]

Need to go to flag hour. Commission only on work performed. An FAA Book should set the estimated time to do any job on any airplane. Then have set hourly rate.

[@TheReadBaron91]

Kiss all your A&Ps goodbye then! Not advocating anyone should be ripped off, but flat in aviation is just a recipe for disaster. It certainly incentivizes corner cutting, which obviously already happens occasionally.

[@flyingcountryboy]

@TheReadBaron91 Reputation is everything in aviation. If you sign your name to it, it better be right! It is possible to be fast and good at the same time. If one cut corners, said person is just a lazy person and life will bite one in the ass anyway eventually. Hard work has its rewards. Pirates ☠️ get hurt bad.

[@N412BE]

Didn’t mention the insurance cost of the “club maintenance” theory.

[@josbren8943]

First place to try a MAINTANCE association is a live in AirPark. Any takers?

[@Josh-dr3fj]

Hello, I am currently preparing to embark on a journey to get my A&P and my PPL. One hope for my future is to purchase and build an RV-8 or 12. I listened to Mikes Manifesto and i had a question in regards to RMC with LSAs. Listenening it sounded like all time based Airframe maintanace on LSAs cant really follow the RCM approach given the way the regulations are written, but what about the engine and TBOs? Should that be treated the same as it would be for a standard Certified Aircraft? I.e. can an Lycoming or Rotax engine TBO be ignored so long as the engine is in good, healthy condition, even though its on an LSA and maybe an Experimental LSA at that? Thank you and I hope this makes sense.

[@anthonyrstrawbridge]

I'm in favor of keeping both T&M at the lowest cost and highest quality. The M list needs to be complete and identify maximum costs. The availability should be verified. Acquisition of the parts should be timely ASAP whenever reasonable. T should be predetermined. Generally, T should be the fastest shortest. T speed reflects experience and proficiency not quality. If M&T costs and times are accounted accurately there is only one gamble left which is at the head of the quest. Probably a high volume broker of the specific aircraft should be in the lead. ✌🏽👶🏽🚬

[@JFirn86Q]

A Repairmans cert of some sort for just your own airplane is the single best and easiest way the FAA could solve a good chunk of the A&P shortage and make GA affordable to others besides the rich.

[@marknielsen8738]

How do you handle a situation where the shop exceeds the estimate (right or wrong) wont "make it right" but the aircraft is due to the "maintenance" non-airworthy? I short they got it and you can't move it and you not moving it until you pay up.

[@flyingcountryboy]

It sounded like a great price to me for the work performed.

[@757MrMark]

The annual is the only thing FLAT rate.

[@brennenfitzgerald]

This description isn't what flat rate is at all.....

[@TheReadBaron91]

Dude just tells general aviation owners what they want to hear. Good marketing model honestly. If they think flat rate will work in aviation, they are crazy. People already complaining about the mechanic shortage, that will only make it worse.