The Controversial Genius Behind Alice In Wonderland | The Secret World Of Lewis Carroll | Timeline

ALICE IN WONDERLAND is said to be the most quoted book in print, second only to The Bible, with a passionate army of fans who regularly congregate around the world to celebrate its rich and playful world. But what of its creator, the mild-mannered and unassuming Oxford University Math Don, Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, aka. Lewis Carroll?
Famed not only for his wonderful stories, Carroll is also known for his ambiguous relationship with the young girl who inspired his most beloved creation, Alice Liddell, a seemingly innocent infatuation that he documented in his pioneering photography.
With contributions from the likes of thespian Richard E. Grant, social commentator Will Self and author Philip Pullman, at once adoring and provocative this documentary casts a conflicted eye over the creation of Wonderland. Pouring through historical evidence and stories passed down through generations, hear the tale of Carroll’s first encounter with the three Liddell girls and the first telling of Alice’s tumble down the rabbit hole one summer’s afternoon in a boat upon the River Thames. Documentary first broadcast in 2015.
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[@blondthought5175]

I'm not sure why anyone would expect the genius behind "Alice in Wonderland" to be anything BUT odd.

[@comments.are.turned.off...]

Well said.

[@steveneltringham1478]

Are not the words blond and thought somewhat oxymoronic today?

[@jayt9882]

@@steveneltringham1478 And yet the comment would suggest otherwise...

[@indian.patterns]

True

[@cheesecake4648]

genius??

[@offbeatblackgerl8360]

I think it's sooooo interesting how they justify the obvious. Only one person was blatantly honest. There are tons of things in the Victorian age they did to kids that were absolutely horrible. Some things don't need historical context, it's just wrong.

[@mrunning10]

Stop confusing Pedophilia with Perversion with Pederast with grooming with all the modern-day neurosis placed upon this Problem. Get educated and not just from the intercoursing KZbin.

[@offbeatblackgerl8360]

@@mrunning10 I am educated on the subject. I know the difference. It's still gross. It's still wrong.

[@mrunning10]

@@offbeatblackgerl8360 So glad you dusted-off your Read-the-thoughts-of-Dead-People Time Machine and stole a peek inside Dodgson's head. Can I borrow it? I want to hear what I have to say for myself. He He Ha Ha OMG so sarcastically funny!

[@offbeatblackgerl8360]

@@mrunning10 Now, if you have something to refute my statement, I'd be happy to listen or look it over. But it better be pretty d*mn good. Also, Alice in Wonderland is a masterpiece. His personal shortcomings don't change that. I can separate the art from the artist.

[@jennoury249]

AMEN! They’re denying something that was blatantly obvious.

[@Corvid285]

"I think that's what pedophiles are interested in, is the apparent innocence of children." This guy got it on the dot

[@junejunejuniejune]

Koda Wolf he seemed to be the only person with sese in this doc! Everyone else seemes blinded by admiration.

[@Bushdid119]

He was the only one not in denial about Lewis Carroll’s pretty apparent pedophilia

[@suzannemoogan9675]

Koda Wolf You are totally right, I thought that before he said it, it is the innocence that they are drawn towards, the interviewer, Martha Kearney, ought to grow up, as she appears to be very reluctant to admit to what Dodgson really was, if she is a mother herself, she should be ashamed. It truly doesn't taken a Rocket Scientist to figure out why Carroll was so fascinated by young children.

[@surlygirly1926]

+Koda Wolf: Exactly. That particular commentator was spot on with everything he said.

[@williamwells835]

Koda Wolf, check out the ways of the Zoe tribe of the Amazon. Then, when you look in the mirror, you'll see who the real 'pervert' is.

[@elainagilbert7663]

The fact that Alice grew up to name her son Carroll and deny the connection is very similar to when Lefroy named his daughter Jane and then denied it had anything to do with Austen and she was instead named after his mother-in-law. It's just to spare the feelings of the partner/spouse so they can believe their child wasn't named after a lost love their significant other still pines for.

[@mrunning10]

Keeeee-rice, of course there was a connection, we're just arguing here just what that connection was, the second son was named Leopold, a pallbearer for the beloved sister Edith!

[@elainagilbert7663]

@@mrunning10 It doesn't matter what the connection was. I just find it strange that she would deny her son's name had anything to do with Lewis Carroll. That's not exactly a common name that you can get away with using.

[@c8Lorraine1]

@@elainagilbert7663 Carroll was a popular name during that period. My own family can trace the males with the name either as Christian name of middle name.

[@elainagilbert7663]

@@c8Lorraine1 I understand that, but for her to deny any connection to naming her son Carroll after she had this fantastic childhood friendship with Lewis Carroll, doesn't make any sense.

[@FuzzyKittenBoots]

@@elainagilbert7663 But Alice wouldn't even have known him as Lewis Carroll? And she named her son Caryl, not Carroll. That's like saying that someone who names their son Charles must be doing so because their favourite baby sitter as a child went on to become a famous singer under the stage name Carl *after* he stopped babysitting them.

[@casieatthe393]

I believe in our modern times it’s imperative that we start to normalize separating the art from the artist. Just because you like an author or a musician doesn’t mean you have to defend their terrible and very obvious misgivings.

[@kendrickv4326]

And the fact that people who can do bad things or are despicable can also have an amazing talent...

[@untamedblossoms]

Hear, hear!!! I don’t like the story and don’t like the author. I can admit he had amazing talent. All can be true at once

[@oobrocks]

I’m not sure he was a bad dude judged by the 19th century. I recommend we don’t judge people of the past

[@untamedblossoms]

@@oobrocks clearly something happened to stop his visits to the children. And why shouldn’t we speculate? If he was a creep he was a creep

[@oobrocks]

Speculation isn’t evidence

[@junejunejuniejune]

Yikes, do these people hear themselves? "Yes, he took naked pictures of little girls, yes he befriended little girls...but that was ok back then! And he was a father figure!" To anybody, it should at least comes off as odd, but it seems they are too blind with admiration. The other gentleman had it right, just because someone makes good art, does not mean they are a good person. And they actually do not show the full picture supposedly of Lorina Lindell...but yes, her lower bits were included! Its super creepy, especially her facial expressions. She looks hurt or scared. Not to mention theres a picture of Alice kissing him on the mouth. While they were explaining about his friendships with the girls, I just couldn't help but think he was grooming them.

[@junejunejuniejune]

Pamela La Roda 😣😣😣 oh my goodness! I hadn't even thought of that! Now that you mention it, it must be rife with that type of symbolism. Just a new level of disturbing!

[@valeriegriner5644]

All of the pictures look disturbing to me...pictures of the children, the author, and especially, the nude adolescent girl. Dark stuff...very dark.

[@junejunejuniejune]

Valerie Griner yes theres nothing innocent looking about it. In the uncropped picture, you can see she is developing and on the brink of puberty. Any suggestion that it is not of a pornographic nature, is blind. She looks victimized.

[@axeliaa2148]

junejunejuniejune Back then almost everyone looked serious or hurt in photographs its creepy.

[@axeliaa2148]

junejunejuniejune And the picture of Alice kissing him was actually a fake.

[@tigranmikayelyan3963]

Why would people say that Alice's stories are not for children? Both books are both for children and adults: for children - to develop their imagination and see something beyond, deeper down the surface of the pond of cognition and for adults - to exercise again the pleasure of a child's joy of discovering things despite the rigid boundaries of already conceived and seemingly systemised pieces of knowledge. Thank you so much for this documentary! I really enjoyed it!!!

[@patriciajrs46]

I totally agree with you.

[@cdes1776]

The literature that children read in school was very mature. What some kids read in high school now is closer to the old curriculums of yore.

[@lobstermash]

The books are also full of little jokes about philosophy and logic which students still enjoy.

[@Lelocirraptor]

The lock of hair is not only a sign of love... Was also a way of remember someone loved but not only in a romantic way... A cousin... A friend... A mother... A father... A little friend... Etc...

[@saidie1019]

Still weird

[@Lelocirraptor]

@@saidie1019 Of course

[@chainsherlock6268]

Simon Bolivar’s hair was already on the market when he was still alive. That set the gold standard; his wicked curls and fire moustache. That’s how you measure greatness.

[@HermicraftAddict]

There was hair wreaths made of dead loved ones hair for memories. It's a special thing.

[@Lelocirraptor]

@@HermicraftAddict I love that custom!! It's just so special!!

[@tashfarrar6358]

well, that was unexpected. Quote of the day "it's a problem when someone writes a great book but they are not a great person."

[@Pantano63]

I don't see any problem. Cancel culture is stupid.

[@Wib0]

I took it as a question. Like it seems to be a problem when a bad person writes a great book, no?

[@sammyyuu2558]

I think is you can always like the book and you can dislike the author

[@amaxamon]

NO EVIDENCE against Lewis Carroll!!!! ZERO! He appears to have been a somewhat private and awkward but caring person, plenty of of his students & friends remembered him fondly.

[@megancrager4397]

@@amaxamon being remembered fondly also doesn't make him innocent. I haven't labeled him either way because I agree, there's not enough evidence

[@vane8062]

The narrator lady is creepily fascinated with it .

[@SafetySpooon]

She seems more desperate to clear him, & is in denial.

[@annaturquoise7114]

You haven’t met people who are obsessed w Luis carol. There are weirder ladies and men plus They all sound creepily fascinated if you don’t share their fascination))

[@AL-eu8ro]

she doesn’t seemed disturbed at all. playing along as if it’s only normal and she’s just telling what happened. i remember listening to this when i was 13 and thinking “well he’s very socially awkward and childish so i guess it could be excused” because of the way she was telling it

[@ThereIsAlwaysaWay2]

Yep and it made me more uncomfortable that the real guy. She looks in total aw and admiration .... very creepy.

[@Jennifahh]

who wouldnt?!!

[@porkfrog2785]

That look in the eyes of the pubescent nude girl says more than the whole docu or all the comments. Whoever took that pic was not a good person. That is an embarrassed/hurt person, and whoever is behind the camera doesn't care, their needs, if only to have the pic, superseding empathy.

[@leebee5361]

I totally agree!.. But, tell me (just out of interest).. Are you a REAL pork frog??

[@porkfrog2785]

@@leebee5361 a pork frog is a piece of pig rind with legs carved into it to dress up a hook on a fishing lure...perfect name for a troll...but I never troll

[@cat_terrell]

Totally!💯

[@porkfrog2785]

@Quinn Murph really? what do YOU see in her eyes? In order to know if someone is any good at anything, you have to be good at it yourself...so school me... **cue the crickets**

[@happymate8943]

@generic generic When they said "it was a different time" I dont think they were trying to simplify or excuse this stuff. It actually was a very different time, because there was popular art thing that focused on childhood innocence. A lot of people these same pictures and put on postcards. Lewis even asked permission from their parents, and I think they agree with this stuff. Now I'm not saying Lewis wasn't a nonce, theres still some stuff that could indicate it like the family kicking him out, I'm just giving my reasons why the people in video say "it was a different time"

[@axiomist1076]

When the queen of England read the story of Alice in Wonderland, she found it so wonderful, that she told Dodgson to make sure and give her a copy of his next book. Dodgson complied, giving the queen a copy of a mathematics book !

[@OnnaBlade]

True

[@hamishmacfleetwood5229]

@@OnnaBlade no dodgeson wrote that the story is false.

[@sandiehoward2762]

The book and its creator was simply brilliant, it was the man himself what is is question here regarding his actions.

[@everynewdayisablessing8509]

Actually Carroll said this is untrue.

[@anyaanna9278]

@@sandiehoward2762he was pedo

[@clown-cult96]

If I had a dollar for every time I hear some historian or whatever refer to obviously alarming behaviour as "well it was a different time"...

[@ericanderson4801]

Try mentioning Muhammad's predilection for little girls and see what happens. (You'll get kicked off Facebook. I know that for certain.)

[@dasa1974]

You can’t judge people hundreds of years ago with the standards of today.

[@christineshah7330]

🙄 They aren't necessarily saying it was the right thing, only that we have to take into account the cultural norms of the time. Those norms determine so much of what every person does, nothing about that is different now. Undoubtedly you and I do something people will regard as beyond the pale 200 years from now, but we are trying to be good people. If we are going to talk about people in history we need to attempt objectivity, if only for coming to a understanding of their world and their reasons. It is so much more complex than, "I wouldn't do that in 2019, so obviously back then they should have seen it just like I do." That's rather irrational reasoning.

[@bluecollarlit]

Harvey weinstein tried that excuse, too.

[@christineshah7330]

@@bluecollarlit Weinstein isn't even using that excuse logically, considering that his behavior was beyond the pale when he was doing it, even if he didn't think so.

[@aii5748]

@33:10 / 33:22 Red Queen confirmed. *The Queen of Hearts,* the supposed villain of the story that *barks orders* at Alice, controls wonderland, and appears as threatening / menacing *is most likely Alice's mother.* This is how Carroll viewed her & her interactions with her daughter.

[@herewegokids7]

Yes and that she kept him and Alice apart

[@DeniseEggertwaterlily]

If The Queen of Hearts was Alice's mother, Charles Dodgson, aka Lewis Carroll, was the Mad Hatter.

[@bodhiheeren]

That is completely pseudo psychology

[@thatsickkidjaz1749]

@@DeniseEggertwaterlily that’s true, he tries to get her to stay but the queen won’t let her, the queen is the mother and the mad hatter is Lewis.

[@Wopenga]

In the same way Mozart wrote his mother-in-law as the Queen of the Night, I imagine.

[@lw3646]

So, unlike young Alice Lorina hated having her photo taken, I wonder why.....

[@Elizabarbie12]

Oh wow- I just thought about it now that you pointed out-

[@japonaliya]

The 3 Liddell children were photographed quite often together by Dodgson. He did photograph Alice alone, but he also photographed Lorina alone, even Lorina's doll. Does this mean he was a dollophile?

[@gregb6469]

I don't like having my photo taken.

[@japonaliya]

@@gregb6469 So, what's your stupid point??

[@gregb6469]

@@japonaliya -- That reluctance to be photographed does not mean that the photographer has been abusing the reluctant model.

[@marionchase-kleeves8311]

Familial dynamics in L C childhood are a mystery in that we only know about his stories and above board activities. Crossing the adult to child boundry is catastrophic. That Laurina was NOT HAPPY being exposed before an adult male is obvious in her posture and expression. It doesnt matter in any era what is considered "acceptable" or not, children KNOW THE DIFFERENCE between play and passion.

[@lynnodonnell4764]

As a child who experienced my first sexual molestation at age 4 I'm in agreement that children can sense the intent of an adult. I wud find myself squirming on the inside w discomfort w certain adults and absolute comfort w others. I think Caroll was a repressed pedophile. 12 was age of consent back then ?!... I'm absolutely cringing and I'm going on 70

[@JuneBarbone]

He was a pedophile.. definitely...the children look sad in most of the pictures 😢 breaks my heart.

[@JuneBarbone]

​​@@lynnodonnell4764 OMG, how dreadful, I am so sorry, you went through that. Thankfully, children are aware of these child abusers now, not just don't take candy from strangers, like in our day. 👍🏼 I agree, from a very young age I could sense good or bad people.. children have amazing intuitions.

[@juliabrummer3302]

The great grand daughter actually resembles Alice a lot

[@odoggow8157]

but she actually doesn't

[@men_del12]

Similary? Perhaps. They may alike twin, shape as a dual in doubleness with different district of distinct of inner embodiement.

[@chapterhawk]

In a way (and I say this very loosely) Carroll wasn't completely unlike Michael Jackson. A renowned artist whose relationship with children was obsessive enough to be concerning. Of course we'll never really know, but it feels like there are some similarities there.

[@annnee6818]

Since no one can know no ones gonna step out and call it what it is. Iffy

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

I think people just don't want to be uncomfortable. The fact is, separating the artist completely from the art is lazy and just a way to have your cake and eat it too.

[@blue1584]

@@rosesweetcharlotte It’s not “lazy”, it’s a natural consequence of time. Art often outlives and outgrows the artist.

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

@@blue1584 But just ignoring who and what the artist was keeps you from fully understanding the piece.

[@blue1584]

@@rosesweetcharlotte Not necessarily, many believe that what makes art special is that it has room for multiple interpretations (as opposed to something purely objective like math or science which leaves no room for personal interpretation)

[@prettymommy6579]

I always saw this story as a nightmare

[@karriebelle49]

Pretty Mommy me too

[@mizfrenchtwist]

especially the earlier illustrations.............

[@angelsd8771]

Pretty Mommy or horrid acid trip ajd mk ultra given to the girl hence the storyline which is reality of the girls life

[@larapalma3744]

It is

[@K.Angelina]

I always saw the wizard of oz as one, interesting

[@icemeoutlikeelsa]

They keep talking about him with "young children" but it was only little girls, wasn't it?

[@odoggow8157]

and they come under the classification of young children, he was a photographer when the equipment was unaffordable only the wealthy could afford portraits he was making money off of allsorts of things so his pics of boys didn't draw controversy then or now so are irrelevant

[@japonaliya]

Mostly, but Carroll had boy child friends too. His first child friend was Hallam Tennyson, Alfred's son. Before he befriended Alice and her sisters, he was friends with Harry Liddell, Alice's brother. However, upper class boys we're sent to prestigious boarding schools around 12. Carroll was too, so he could only see him occasionally when Harry came home from school. Carroll was also friends with Greville McDonald, son of the famous Pre-Rafaelite artist. In fact, Greville was the first child to read and review Alice in Wonderland having been given the book by Carroll before publication. But yes, he himself did prefers girls, mostly because of bad encounters with bullies in boarding school, and having many younger sisters he loved entertaining.

[@billyandrew]

He was a paedo. End of.

[@japonaliya]

@Elizabeth Vering First, that is not true, idiot. Read about the Victorians. Read "Men in Wonderland". You are applying todays standards and saying it's wrong. I agree it is a small minority, but to take the leap that it is wrong is a moral judgment. So even if it is unusual, and the reasons for such relationships have psychogical roots... So what? No harm no foul, and we KNOW from the people who were there including the children themselves that he was a good influence on them which they cherished. Read their memoirs! To say something is wrong or bad just because it would be frowned upon today is so short sighted. Remember idiot, Dodgson's relationships with children were with the full approval of their families. He didn't sneak around and grab them off the street. The relationships were sanctioned by the parents and most of the children were of friends and colleagues. We are talking about hundreds of children over his life time, not just a few who had the wool pulled over their eyes. Were THEY complicity in some sort of psychotic cabal that targets children for immoral purposes? Yes, Dodgson was eccentric as were many others of his time, but to see it as devient says more about YOU than Dodgson and other Victorian men. Again.. Go on Amazon, look for the book, "Men in Wonderland" by Catherine Robson. Your answers are there.... No Beth, I am not devient. I am defending one particular man, not anyone who by their actions harms a child either physically or emotionally. Whether you choose to believe it or not, the evidence is overwhelming in Dodgson's favor, and being a person who did his research before jumping to conclusions, I have the high ground. No Elizabeth, it is not all black or all white. Like children? Must be devient, immoral, child abuser.

[@japonaliya]

@@billyandrew And you are a fool! End of it!!

[@dynamitediscodanny8123]

Lmaoooo say what happen why was he exiled a man hanging with 3 kids everyday and all of a sudden he is exiled wtf you think happened

[@CornbreadWisdom]

"It's a problem when someone writes a great book and they're not a great person." quote time - 44:06 from documentary

[@armyyyyyyyyyyyy]

CornbreadWisdom who's that guy? He's handsome

[@everythingviral972]

@SURREY CROSSING What money did the great grand daughter get? DId she write a book about the pedophile author? It's very clear he was a pedophile. Carrying toys and puzzles in his pockets. "hey little girl, would you like some candy?". I mean c'mon. It all fits together. He wrote a letter to a 10 year old girls saying in so many words that it was most unfortunate that he couldn't kiss her, and had to settle for kissing the lock of hair she had given him. What kind of creep behaves like that? A pedophile. He was very clearly grooming the children.

[@ten10strips85]

That's ridiculous. One has nothing to do with the other.

[@timetravellerregisteredtra850]

well of course. the book wasn't written by a non-white so it is naturally evil as is the white man who wrote it.

[@robkunkel8833]

And who is that expert? An actor.

[@BevChoy]

I honestly believe that he had a special affinity with children, especially Alice. I think Alice encompassed a child that Lewis had wished to be in his own childhood. Even the drawing of a girl found in his old house looks very much like his drawings of Alice in his handwritten books.

[@Smalls-eye24]

0:55 little girl just tells it straight up

[@INatalkaI]

My parents named me after Alice in Wonderland, we're Russian. It's an incredibly popular book the world over. Very interesting to learn more about the man behind it.

[@raea3588]

I always found these facts interesting... There are at least three direct links to [Alice] Liddell in the two books. First, he set them on 4 May (Liddell's birthday) and 4 November (her "half-birthday"), and in Through the Looking-Glass the fictional Alice declares that her age is "seven and a half exactly", the same as Liddell on that date. Second, he dedicated them "to Alice Pleasance Liddell". Third, there is an acrostic poem at the end of Through the Looking-Glass. Reading downward, taking the first letter of each line, spells out Liddell's full name. The poem has no title in Through the Looking-Glass, but is usually referred to by its first line, "A Boat Beneath a Sunny Sky". A boat beneath a sunny sky, Lingering onward dreamily In an evening of July- Children three that nestle near, Eager eye and willing ear, Pleased a simple tale to hear- Long has paled that sunny sky: Echoes fade and memories die. Autumn frosts have slain July. Still she haunts me, phantomwise, Alice moving under skies Never seen by waking eyes. Children yet, the tale to hear, Eager eye and willing ear, Lovingly shall nestle near. In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die: Ever drifting down the stream- Lingering in the golden gleam- Life, what is it but a dream? In addition, all of those who participated in the Thames boating expedition where the story was originally told (Carroll, the Reverend Duckworth and the three Liddell sisters) appear in the chapter "A Caucus-Race and a Long Tale" - but only if Alice Liddell is represented by Alice herself.

[@carolinebarnes6832]

I was born in 1952 and I can remember that it was considered perfectly okay to take pictures of naked children, and also before puberty it was considered okay to have older men friends with children, whereas as soon as one started to 'develop' all that was then abruptly cut of, and it was made very clear that now your were no longer a little girl and different standards of behaviour were now required.

[@HeavenlyValo]

Okay but did you see that last photo? She had developed breasts. At no point in time is this not considered inappropriate.

[@Inkdraft]

Caroline Barnes: Yes, and when we were little and went to the beach we played in the water with just a pair of shorts on, no tops and when it came time to go home your mum changed your wet shorts for dry ones right on the beach. No one cared.

[@japonaliya]

@@HeavenlyValo That photo was not taken by Carroll, nor is it of Lorina Liddell. It was a hoax that many fell for, just like the Photoshopped picture of Alice kissing him, a combo of two different photos.

[@everythingviral972]

@@japonaliya Is this not the same doc I am thinking of (yet to watch it, came here after seeing a 10 minute section of another one)?. They forensically examine his photo of her and determine it was in fact her. Two different experts, one used in court cases, conclude the picture is of her.

[@japonaliya]

@@everythingviral972 The "experts" were only able to conclude that the photographic process was the same as Carroll, but this can be faked. Another historian and photographer in the 70s passed off nude photos taken by Carroll and the "experts" agreed until he came clean and said he made them. The experts did not use classic forensics to determine if the girl was Lorina by computer face recognition, and Carroll had already stopped taking photos of the Liddell children when Lorina was a teen. Also, only 30 nudes taken out of 3000 photos, non with genitalia exposed, all modeled after famous paintings, and never did he take photos, nude or otherwise without permission!!

[@lancemaltby895]

It's like every ad was timed to start in the middle of each segment's most dramatic statement.

[@davihar]

far too many ads. I won't be watching this channel again

[@nilsnyman6767]

I unsubscribed from this channel last week for that very reason

[@Chloe-ge7vv]

Adblock is yall's friend ;)

[@tamarrajames3590]

This is a brilliant look at the life of Lewis Carroll, and the depth of inquiry is to be applauded. Whether Carroll ever acted on his obvious attraction to children will likely never be known for a certainty. The sheer volume of children who have met with inappropriate touch or behaviour from adults is far broader than we like to think. It would seem that Carroll was rather stunted in his social maturity, and found himself more at ease with children than with his peers. The power of his writing can be appreciated for itself regardless of the flaws his character may have displayed. The very concept of twelve being the age of consent is appalling to the modern mind, but it truly was a very different time. This documentary has given me much to ponder. Thank you for uploading this kind of quality programming. 🇨🇦

[@tamarrajames3590]

Alex you could easily be right, I don't think he perceived anything unacceptable in his friendships.

[@LadyCoyKoi]

Back then pedophilia was accepted or at least overlooked. :/ Not saying it is good or what-have-you, but older men always married younger women or even married teens during Victorian times. There were known as child brides, which men would buy virgin girls as young as 9-11 years of age. There was still a belief that virgins and the purer the soul the better could cure all sorts of illnesses, particularly VDs, syphilis and gonorrhea, etc. Even to this day child brides exist. O_O

[@BigBadassR]

The concept of twelve being the age of consent was appalling to the mind of the past as well, don't kid yourself. The way the laws are fashioned in a society are in no way indicative of how the average person in that society thinks. If that was true, child molesters in America wouldn't get shorter sentences then pot dealers.

[@saskoilersfan]

A raven is like a writing desk be cause they both have caws for thoughts.

[@kayem3824]

Is it really OK for children to read? Doesn't it convey subliminal messages?

[@mowthpeece1]

Either LSD or mushroom trip. He even has Alice eating mushrooms in the dream. Phenomenal story.

[@daddygirlchanelhines4600]

The story is exactly what he did with her.. "They lived at the bottom of the well." Sound's like an threat

[@teamseshforever7955]

its a threat yeah and the story exists so that when people asked what they were doing they just tell them that crazy story even tho he was sexually abusing them

[@carolking6355]

I started reading a chapter of this book to my daughter aged 6 each night when I put her to bed_ she loved it and so did I again.. she has never told me but at 33 she called her second daughter Alice. ❤️

[@Pugetwitch]

so you discovering this video that this man is a pedophilic monster who is grooming a 4-year-old toddler, and you hear these enablers in the documentary describe the toddler as impertinent and how she puffs the hair out of her forehead or whatever that woman was saying, basically making the 4-year-old sound like a precocious teen. That's disgusting. The overtones are inappropriate. And for you to immediately talk about your own child and how much she loves it is very creepy.

[@carolking6355]

I don’t believe what these people are speculating. He came from family , with heaps of younger sisters. I think he was shy and related to children , feeling comfortable with them. Hi s main interests were photography, writing or telling wonderful stories. What men friends would have cared about that. I think it is evil to speak badly of the dead. HIs lovely ancestors spoke beautifully. No one in his lifetime complained . Just an ambitious mother who was named the Kingfisher. We live in a different era. I am in my 80s and read the book that was read to me. I did my degree in Literature as well as philosophy which helps me to think. I don’t think much of you.

[@ladeybugg1]

@@carolking6355well said.

[@AliciaGuitar]

My boss used to call me "Alicia en país de las maravillas" (Alice in wonderland in spanish). Not many others realize my name's connection but it was always my favorite story. I particularly like the tv movie from 1985 that starred Natalie Gregory. Its here on YT.

[@ringo1692]

Go ask Alice.... I think she'll knooow.....

[@HannibalFan52]

Remember what the dormouse said: Feed your head! Feed your head!

[@dougbennett8592]

One pill makes you smaller, and one pill makes you small. And the ones that mother gives you don't do anything at all.

[@karissailormoon]

And if you go chasing rabbits, and you know you're going to fall Tell 'em a hookah-smoking caterpillar has given you the call

[@MrParkerman6]

When men on the chessboard get up and tell you were to go!

[@dequadrewalton2582]

if we can a warm version of her

[@jasonlawrence2143]

Bizarre views in the 19th century. They used to photograph their dead relatives and felt comfortable with that. Still can't believe that.

[@remiem-iw7uk]

Folks still photo dead relatives today.

[@LouBrikanT]

I came late to this posting, but probably you don't know than in Puerto Rico there's a funeral home where they dress the corpses in costumes and put them in poses for everyone to see. It's creepy and bizarre, but they love it. Even with their eyes open, they consider that respectful.

[@softiebbybunny2317]

Jason Lawrence They did that back than because taking pictures were expensive. If a child died back than taking a picture of them was something to remember them by. I don't think they liked it but it was to have something left of someone they didn't know too long. People died very easily back than.

[@dontbefatuousjeffrey2494]

There was a very sentimentalist culture in the late 19th century - children, romance and death were all viewed through a highly sentimentalist lens and almost religiously venerated. The much higher risks faced in life (extreme poverty; exposure to industrial risk and pollution; wars; disease; maternal and infant mortality risks etc.) help explain the way Victorians viewed innocence, love and mortality.

[@Inkdraft]

Jason Lawrence: People still have photos of their deceased relatives in this day and age: when someone loses a child at birth the hospital photographs the child and those photos are the only things that those grieving parents, grandparents, and siblings have to remember that little one by.

[@withonelook1985]

Its odd that if an adult man shows ANY interest in children that instantly makes him a pedophile. These accusations coming from the same people who say they men focus too much on masculinity and dominance. Well yes, they will do when the second they show an amount of love and kindness they're accused of being sexual predators.

[@livesimplyandhumbly]

Wow, he spent probably hundreds of hours making that book for her.

[@herewegokids7]

He was obsessed

[@odoggow8157]

@@herewegokids7 understatement

[@daddygirlchanelhines4600]

He was an drug addicted rapist.

[@tetrahedron1000]

@@daddygirlchanelhines4600 For your information, magic mushrooms are not addictive and, as for the second accusation, you have no proof. The ignorance on some of these pages is appalling. I blame the Internet. It stops people from thinking.

[@davidschadeberg3786]

@@tetrahedron1000 I know of no evidence of mushrooms, or any drugs. Show me the evidence, proof!

[@leeannalynx4890]

It remains captivating because as an adult you realize that's what life is horrifyingly like.

[@indian.patterns]

True

[@CathyD1976]

They should have blurred those pictures esp that last one ffs

[@FrenchLib]

Alice is NOT the first female lead in children's literature, contrary to what Martha Kearney says at 21:44: Before its first edition was published in 1865, in France the Comtesse de Ségur published Les Malheurs de Sophie, in 1858, seven years earlier, the first of a trilogy (followed by Les Petites Filles Modèles and Les Vacances) and a huge success to this day.

[@mrunning10]

Yah, well, Martha is from England and the BBC doesn't give much credit to France for anything.

[@belamoure]

@@mrunning10 As a child I was fortunate being born French Canadian to have read both books. Alice's adventures were fascinating - the cake that makes you grow a giant or become little etc. The Comtesse proudly proclaimed being born Rostopchine and would use in her tales the whip to punish children found undisciplined or bad. Never Lewis Carrol would have gone to that extremity with dear Alice! I read last year a biography written by his nephew he was also a great mathematician. A complex character but very creative and in a way like Christian Andersen -endearing. Nowadays he would have been thrown in jai, listed sued, dismissed from Oxford, etc. We are so prompt to judge, label, condemn and so slow to forgive and forget.

[@peterc4082]

Given the British always make themselves out to be exceptional, it's not amazing they would push the Anglo chauvinism. Elitist and chauvinist society of stuck of snobs. Perfidious Albion.

[@SandraLovesSun]

41:00 - no evidence of anything inappropriate - 2 minutes later - children naked for photography. Um.

[@tetrahedron1000]

If you see anything wrong with that, then YOU have a dirty mind. I hope that you never have children.

[@robokill387]

tons of victorian era people did that. We view it as inappropriate today but it was accepted at the time. In fact many people photographed their children naked as recently as a few decades ago.

[@cat_terrell]

@@robokill387 They Absolutely Knew That was inappropriate in Victorian era! Wtf?! Are You Kidding!!! Ankle Boots!!! FOR fs' Sake! Ur an idiot! Or a P...!!!!!

[@cat_terrell]

@@tetrahedron1000 Bet You Have a Dirty Mind! The Victorian Era, was a time of Hide Your Ankles and Any thing Below the Neckline, CREEPY!!!!

[@robokill387]

@@cat_terrell "They Absolutely Knew That was inappropriate in Victorian era!" No they didn't. You are projecting modern day sensibilities into the past. Tons of respected photographers from the period took nude photos of children, including pioneering woman photographers. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_Margaret_Cameron FFS, the victorians would take photos of dead bodies sitting alongside living people, yet you expect them to follow the exact same values as today? "The Victorian Era, was a time of Hide Your Ankles and Any thing Below the Neckline, CREEPY!!!!" No, that's a massive oversimpification of the sort someone who hasn't done much research on the era and is going off stereotypes would make. Again, how can you claim that people in victorian times would know this was inappropriate when it wasn't even universally seen as inappropriate in the 1990s!

[@io1380]

43:41 love that guy, couldnt have said it better myself

[@herewegokids7]

Same

[@herewegokids7]

He's not having it

[@beardedshadow]

Will Self. Watch him on Have I Got News For You. Very funny.

[@pocketpicker6613]

*Reaches down for a drink...*

[@6ixConfessions]

Okay, so now my eyes are open wider than before. Just goes to show that putting people up on a pedestal is a huge mistake. Famous or not; they are no better or worse than any other person can be.

[@dequadrewalton2582]

true kim

[@falcychead8198]

People are also very fond of pushing others off pedestals.

[@mindtheprivacy]

Like Picasso.

[@japonaliya]

Maybe it also goes to show how you shouldn't believe everything you read or watch unless you are capable to doing your own research and not be spoon fed someone else's agenda. This tv doc is full of false and unfounded speculation. I hope you know that the nude photo of Lorina Liddell at the end of the program has been proven false on two accounts. It was not taken by Dodgson/Carroll and the girl isn't Lorina. So.. what do we have but only to look at a man who in his time was loved and those who knew him had only good things to say about him, but 150 years later it's a OK to call him a pedophile without a shred of real evidence!! It is almost like Alice in the courtroom... Off with his head, sentence first, vertict after.....

[@tonibauer2949]

SURREY CROSSING I once was told by a boyfriend that he would put me on a pedestal. I told him that was a very uncomfortable place to reside. We didn’t last long.

[@NinaRose-we4xx]

I never liked this story as a child & now I know why. I dont understand how anyone doesn't see that Caroll was anything but a child predator.

[@madeleinebelle2105]

As I child I felt this book was weird and seemed like someone's fantasy? For fantasy that I could understand and be transported to a place of eventual hope...The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe was the book that gave me solace and an appetite for reading...thank you C.S Lewis!!

[@meman6964]

I thought author was high or on LSD

[@patriciajrs46]

​@@meman6964Laudnum, morphine, and other opiates, some of the Oriental variety were well in use in those eras. I think strange imaginings would have taken place often.

[@anneshirley9560]

I agree. I movie and book creeped me out as a kid. I do love C.S. Lewis as well!

[@mrsmrlattewcoconut9901]

I never liked the book, finding the story’s elements creepy. 25 minutes into the documentary and I’ve not been persuaded otherwise, contrary to the fanboys & girls swooning narratives.

[@janie3117]

@@mrsmrlattewcoconut9901, thank you! Someone with common sense!

[@strictlynorton]

Will Self nailed the mystique of Carroll. Great Art isn't necessarily created by great people. Sage observation by another great writer.

[@mrunning10]

Great Art is Pain.

[@cherrylee1103]

never any evidence he did anything wrong? how about being banned from the family.

[@leighfoulkes7297]

Or taking naked photos of young girls?

[@ashabowers9797]

@@trixirouillard82 sexuality can involve children. he didnt act on it. plus i dont care. i care about the wonderful story. not about youteejay. youre no writer or artist. just sprouting your mouth.

[@Tempusverum]

@@trixirouillard82 Yeah. Takes one to know one, don't it TeeJay?

[@nonayobiznez5311]

@@trixirouillard82 Did you research him for 40 years?

[@jameskufazvineyi1012]

they found out what he was doing with the girls, probably the pictures, then they banned him, and someone who loved him/his work removed pages of him admitting to whatever he was doing to these children, he changed when he came back probably because someone had talked some sense into him and they kept contact because the kids kept loving him and he could have been caught before the worst happened so it was easy to make up an excuse

[@eshbena]

Dear People, please, in the future, when handling a precious manuscript, wear gloves!!! Watching her smear the oil on her fingers all over those pages was just horrifying. Signed, an Antiquarian. :)

[@starseed39]

Am I the only one who wants her to put on gloves to touch the original book????? It's driving me crazy!!!!!! No oils on the pages!!!!!😳

[@hogwashmcturnip8930]

Modern academic thinking is that the gloves actually do more damage than clean dry hands britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2011/08/white-gloves-or-not.

[@mattkaustickomments]

Nope gloves are out. People are more likely to tear the pages because of loss of sensitivity with gloves on.

[@billyandrew]

@@hogwashmcturnip8930 HTTP error 404.

[@abisweigart3547]

Thank you!!!!!!

[@Danko_Sekulic]

I can assure you that normal handling of well preserved old books, even on a regular basis, is not nearly as damaging as some people make it outvto be. I have a nine volume set of collected works of A. Pope from 1760, and it suffered no damage from regular touching, page turning, cleaning etc. I am a bit more careful when I read them, but in my experience clean hands - and I would hope that was common sense for all book owners - are more than enough. In fact, these books fared better than a lot of others from m,y collection, because the quality of modern bookbinding cannot hold a candle to old craftsmanship.

[@edwardwalsh4454]

A picture says a thousand words and Lewis Carroll is talking volumes in his photography.

[@danielschneider1504]

Having worked in several museums, I have *serious* doubts that any museum would give permission to remove fairly large amounts of material (look at the pile of shavings at 50:19, and remember that we're talking about something on a sheet of paper) from an artifact-* certainly* not to someone not connected to the museum. So what we have is a picture of a dark-haired girl, taken with the same type of mass-produced camera and developed with the standard process of the time that Dodgson used, with an attribution by someone else- no-one knows who- examined by a "conservator" who's perfectly happy to be filmed causing irreperable damage to a historic artifact. Colour me unconvinced...

[@daniserrzuni4516]

I just keep thinking of why he would signed the picture with his stage name and not his real one

[@turtleanton6539]

Yeh

[@Mark-Mcloud]

Why have two names was one he used around children so he was able to know what letters to open. Something clearly happened for pages to be removed from his diary and the older sister spoke of his interest in her. That photo could also be the reason why the mother stopped him visiting

[@alohajenn]

I think this is disturbing.. what kind of parent let's a grown man spend so much alone time with their Daughters.. This story screams pedophile to me!!

[@Mark-Mcloud]

@@alohajenn It disturbs you that a family friend was allowed to watch over the child? Also in the Victorian times it wasn’t uncommon for a girl as young as 12 to marry with her parents consent the boy needed to be 14 to marry so had Mr Carroll plans to my the oldest daughter Lorina there would be no issues also before condemning them with the way we think today what are your thoughts of Elvis at the age of 24 dating his 14 year old cousin and marrying her

[@Hi-lb8cq]

The pic where the 3 girls are sitting alice was the only one with her dress open and ankles exposed..she was the only one not tucked in her dress like the other 2 girls..I do 1800s living history and know some stuff on 1800s etiquette..and to me this seems odd too

[@chrisbabcock9097]

Lol everyone is expert when the other person can’t defend themselves lol

[@Hi-lb8cq]

@@chrisbabcock9097 I'm not saying that he did anything at all...because it could be nothing...Times Were Different Back Then though too

[@Hi-lb8cq]

@@chrisbabcock9097 your allowed to be an expert if you actually know what your talking about 😂😂😂

[@Jennifahh]

@@Hi-lb8cq but still making stupid assumptions!!!

[@Hi-lb8cq]

@@Jennifahh and your here why???...just another keyboard troll😂😂😂😂

[@queenofthecrossroads2613]

Everyone knows Alice in Wonderland is not really a children's book....

[@corneliawissing7950]

I've read, but do not know whether it is so, that Disney made a film of this book. It was shown to a group of children, who had hysterics and so the film was never released.

[@tonibauer2949]

cornelia wissing not at all true. It was released in 1951 and shown across the US. Then, it was shown on TV on Walt Disney’s Disneyland. After that it was re released in the 1970s. No hysterics. I do remember thinking it was weird and different, but not that disturbing. I am 73 and we had the book, along with many others in our home. It was certainly no more disturbing than the classic Wizard of Oz, which was also strange in many ways.

[@corneliawissing7950]

@@tonibauer2949 , I saw the final film. But my understanding then was that it had not been the first edition of the film?

[@tonibauer2949]

cornelia wissing well, I never heard that. The one released in 1951 was the same one that became popular in the psychedelic 60’s and 70’s. Unless they revised it pre release I don’t think that is the case.

[@naelie2288]

Honestly it’s pretty dark

[@dreampastures]

I was in shock of Nicholas Shrimpton's response when asked about Lewis's photo's of the nude child: "like many people he thought the human body was a supremely beautiful thing, and he thought the most supremely beautiful form of the human body was the female body before puberty" Wow this guy really is in denial 🙄 They just keep fumbling with their answers.

[@daltsav]

In an age where pedophilia is prevalent it really doesn't matter what this man thought of the pre pubescent female. What matters is the exploitation of an innocent who now has to live with the fact that her body was used because of someone elses ideas. Innocence no matter what is fragile and should be protected by the strong until the innocent reaches an age where they can protect themselves.

[@whatadollslife]

I think the caricature of the red queen looked like the Liddle's Mother ….. and it amazed me that he had a speech impediment and was a teacher and a story teller..... he wrote in a diary every day and yet we feel like much may have been unsaid ….. photography was his outlet / possibly for things he couldn't even write down to himself

[@gwendolynfish2102]

How very sad about the ending, but an incredible story! Very well done!

[@afiluvr94]

I’m a fan of the Alice stories. This is really the only documentary I’ve seen about this. Definitely gives credence to the rumors.

[@mrunning10]

As any documentary on this subject goes, it's not too bad, certainly captures the wonder of the stories, especially Will Self. Please be aware, the full-frontal is NOT Lorina Liddell.

[@fakename3440]

Lewis took over 3000 photographs in his life and only 4 of them were pictures of nude girls. And those four pictures were hand colored by children.

[@lw3646]

No he took lots of pictures of naked children during his lifetime and kept a copy of each one for his records. On his death he gave instructions for them to be destroyed. The ones which have survived were the copies given to the families.

[@mizfrenchtwist]

I must admit , the illustrations in the earlier books , were DAMN CREEPY , VERY DARK .................

[@teemack6142]

mizfrenchtwist I always felt it was weird, dark, and strange. Even as a child, I didn't really like it. Gave me a bad vibe.

[@scottleft3672]

Look at PUNCH magazine from the 1880's.....you will faint.

[@clementinemonroe717]

mizfrenchtwist Indeed.

[@ma.cristinavaleriano738]

I never read or liked the story. I also found it very creepy and dark. It scared me.

[@japonaliya]

And what about a hundred other children's books that had "dark" illustrations (so you say) are their authors all pedos too?

[@rameyzamora1018]

This actually made me cry. Lorina looks so unhappy in the nude photo...

[@TheElizabethashby]

SHE DID NOT LIKE BEEN NAKED WOULD ANY YOUNG TEENAGER LIKE IT

[@japonaliya]

She looked unhappy because she knew that a century and a half later people like you would really believe she WAS Lorina and the photograph was by Carroll. The "experts" in the doc know nothing about Carroll. Even the time frame was wrong. Carroll never took nudes until the late 1860s-early 1880s when he saw Julia Margaret Cameron's nude studies, and then took only 30 nudes in his lifetime. By the time he experimented with nudes, trying to mimic famous paintings, Lorina was a woman, well in her twenties!

[@tetrahedron1000]

@@TheElizabethashby Yes, some would accept it if they are naturists. Oh, and what about all the hippies at Woodstock? As far as I remember, there were some young girls there. You have a typical 21st Century dirty mind and I feel sorry for you.

[@jenwombatexcelsior]

It's not a bad thing, our 21st Century minds that want to fight for the right for children not to be taken advantage of from dirty old people. Children should be allowed to be children and not playthings for little boys trapped in men's bodies.

[@japonaliya]

@@jenwombatexcelsior Yes, by all means fight for 21st c children's rights, but do you hear yourself? "Dirty old people" ! Carroll was only in his twenties when he met Alice. Before that his main child friends were BOYS, YES, BOYS!!! HALLEM TENNYSON, son of Alfred Lord Tennyson, Alice's brother Harry Liddell, Greville MacDonald, son of the famous writer/artist who was the first child after Alice to read Wonderland and give his op. You are comparing today to a bygone age and values that did not think it freakish to be nostalgic for childhood, and the want of children's company. The reasons behind adults devoting their lives to children are quite varied. Can you deny the fact that some adults want to be around someone else's child for 8 hours a day 5 days a week? We call them teachers!!! What would make a man want to be in a room with 5 and 6 year olds teaching kindergarten? And BTW, so was Carroll. Do you know he helped raise and tutor his many younger sisters? What about an adult that devotes himself to examining children's bodies? We call them pediatricians!!! Are your eyebrows raised yet? Of course Carroll was eccentric and maybe neurotic, but to equate that with pedophilia is a long stretch. Just because you and others here a century and a half later can't wrap your head around some who can be attracted to children and for all the GOOD reasons doesn't give you the right to judge him now with no evidence to back up your view. BTW Carroll's first published poem, written when barely 20 called "Solitude" sums up Carroll's view on life and childhood... READ IT!

[@DrTarrandProfessorFether]

When I was little and my sister in the 1960’s, my Australian parents took lots of nude photographs of us scampering about the yard. Today, if they were sent to a lab for processing, I bet a child protective services would pay a Welfare Visit!!!

[@sandradancetovic2150]

But those photos still weren't taken by some weird family friend, cousin or a random dude. That's the difference.

[@3VILmonkey]

One of my writing professors in college told me, "if people like your work, then they like you". That statement baffled me then and baffles me now. Carroll's books are fantastic. His use of prose is beyond masterful and the stories themselves are precedent-class. But do I "like" him? No. I don't personally know him (since he died long before I was born) so he and I can't be buddies. I don't hate him either for the same reason. The same goes for living authors such as Neal Stephenson, Stephen King, and JK Rowling (to name a few). They are wonderful authors and their books make my life better but I don't know them so I'm not going to use the completely misused phrases "like" or "love". "Artificial intelligence" is another woefully misused phrase but that's another story. Bottom line: Carroll was obviously waaaayyy into little girls but that doesn't make his writing anything less than superb.

[@cheesecake4648]

the first time i read alice in wonderland I thought an amateur wrote that. the story had potential but his writing was below average.

[@violet9853]

@@cheesecake4648 haha

[@EndmayTriumph]

@@cheesecake4648 anyway it's a children's book bruh

[@Angie_flores]

Teachers sometimes don’t know what the heck they’re talking about

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

Normally I might agree. But then I see JK Rowling and her crazy and she does clearly believe this. She thinks people agree with her awful transphobia because they love Harry Potter. So, yeah, maybe to some extent, this is more true than we want to admit. When we buy something, even if we don't like the creator, we're in some way supporting them

[@Serai3]

You can tell more about a person by where they fall on the question on Carroll's relationship with Alice than most anything else. Of course, it doesn't tell you anything about Carroll himself.

[@bachirmessaouri4772]

At last, someone with a brain and some perspective. Thank you.

[@mrunning10]

Dodgson. Dodgson. Dodgson. Dodgson. Dodgson. Dodgson. Dodgson. Dodgson. Dodgson. Dodgson. Dodgson. Dodgson. Dodgson.

[@giovanni5063]

Commenting on the characters drawn by Lewis Carroll as being mournful one must remember that they were all lifetime prisoners of a Wonderland that was ruled by a capricious and insane Queen. The only creature in Wonderland that could see that things were so topsy-turvy was Alice. Was the Red Queen actually Victoria with all her eccentricities? Were all the creatures that Alice encounters caricatures of prominent personalities of Victorian society? Just a Wonder to me.

[@MrRobertjschoen]

When you go chasing rabbits.....I think you'll know. Thanx Grace

[@gilbertsantini4507]

As a fan of litereture in general, I have over the years read forwards, book reviews, and other articles about books in which I have read about things like the fact that someone once wrote a novel without using the letter "e", and I came across mention af someone once having written a novel based on chess. When I read Alice's Adventure's in Wonderland I realized that it seemed like some of the movements of the characters do echo the moves of chess pieces...I'm guessing Carrol might have invented details about the pieces as he was teaching chess to a child, hoping to make it more interesting--and he may have done the same thing at some point with a card game...

[@charliedoesntmatter7488]

"She meets a strange character." "That'd be me."

[@SafetySpooon]

The snippet of conversation from Lorena is actually the clue : "One has to tell them SOMETHING". IOW, she gave an excuse that would not embarrass herself

[@mrunning10]

Bingo!

[@analyhernandez4607]

I highly doubt that children would report “inappropriate” behavior to their parents because things WERE different. I don’t think a child in those times would have disclosed anything, specially if they were groomed to think they were willing participants.

[@christinedavies4895]

I first came across this Alice book as a 7 year old. I couldn't read it because it terrified me, the illustrations mainly. I was an abused child. Maybe I sensed something fundamentally wrong? I cannot help but agree with Will Self.

[@ED80s]

Me too. I never liked this book and the photos terrified me.

[@Pugetwitch]

dude has Jared from subway energy

[@jtonthatrack3984]

@@Pugetwitchyou commented on everything and you look manic asf

[@lilxandra2604]

I keep coming back to this documentary, its so interesting! And I love the host, she's great

[@Inkdraft]

When I was 5 my mother read a chapter of the unabridged version of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Alice Through the Looking Glass to me every night at bedtime. I loved the story and still do and still have the book. I loved the illustrations by John Tenniel. To this day my favorite form of illustration is pen and ink.

[@lecturideneuitat7989]

Alice in Wonderland in romanian kzbin.info/www/bejne/b2S3mJqOgbdpo5I Also Alice through the looking glass kzbin.info/aero/PL2FkuXQQ7wZi91WCZISY_S1-_m5essvRh

[@sambotros1918]

@@lecturideneuitat7989 kzbin.info/www/bejne/n3zSc6ignq-snMU

[@sundownsahara]

They asked someone in this documentary if any of the mothers ever objected to his relationship with their children, and the man answered no. Actually, I did a research project on this in high school, and there were at least two mothers who became angry with him for "kissing their daughter on the cheek". But I don't think I recall any of the mothers objecting to the nude pictures, which is very strange today but maybe it was ok with the moms then because they never heard of pedophilia and they were present when the pictures were taken. Just a theory.

[@mrunning10]

Wow, you DID do some research. Kudos! The understanding was the photographs were private, given to the families, and even displayed in their homes occasionally. Just doesn't make sense in our cellphone camera world snappic our brains out and post to the world world does it?

[@jamieraegro]

He was epileptic. The story was about a seizure, I believe. The girl keeps trying to “get out”. I believe he later married her, or tried to. He maybe been a pervert, but epilepsy and traumatic brain injuries mess with our minds. The children may have been the only harmless, safe people to him. I’m epileptic and have a TBI. I like to paint the pictures of her getting out

[@steveneardley7541]

This kind of "child eroticism" was very common in the Victorian Age. It was not considered sexual.

[@Pugetwitch]

​@@jamieraegroI have multiple TBIs and brain damage. I'm also autistic and have ADHD. I'm a survivor of CSA and I would never ever defend a pedophile the way that you are. Inexcusable!

[@Pugetwitch]

​@@steveneardley7541incorrect.

[@danielwalbridge1406]

"You can't experience heaven on earth unless you can live with the innocence of a child" Adultism is a dis- ease.

[@Hevynly1]

With regards to the final alleged picture of Lorina, I'm surprised the forensic analyst didn't catch the large space from the outer corner of her eyes to her eyebrow in the pictures definitely of Lorina. The girl in the nude photograph has a much more narrow space and far less eyelid showing than the legit pics of Lorina. In the nude picture, her eyebrows also extend out more towards the center of her face. It would be one thing if the pictures were chronological, this could suggest natural progression, but the eye area would not go from large in the young picture to small in the teen picture to large as an adult.

[@HermicraftAddict]

Huh... That's an interesting observation.

[@therealdonnawagner]

In the other photographs, she's looking dead on. In the scandalous one, the girl has her chin slightly downward and is looking slightly upward (from her POV), so the space looks smaller. Go to a mirror and try it. You'll see the space in your own eye area looks smaller even though, in reality, it's not. It definitely looks like it's the same girl. Even the hair is a match for the style she frequently wore around that time.

[@bikinggal1]

This was done so amazingly!! I love the narrator, she's delightful and excited the whole time she meets people and talks to them!!

[@jesseturnip]

Well he wasn't no Mr Rodgers.

[@japonaliya]

Mr. Rogers WAS a pedophile!!!!!!!! HA

[@merricat3025]

@@japonaliya no he wasn't

[@japonaliya]

@@merricat3025 proove that he wasn't! Just like you can't prove Lewis Carroll WAS!! That's my point. Both men had an obsession with children so why does Mr. Rogers get a pass?

[@odoggow8157]

@@japonaliya we dont need to its already been proven by caroll

[@japonaliya]

@@odoggow8157 What has? Where is YOUR proof? I have studied Carroll and the Victorians for 30 years. Not one iota of PROOF or any evidence that Carroll was anything other than a kind, caring man who never gave up his connection with childhood (like so many other Victorian men) who happened to write one of the greatest books of all time. If you have any evidence... Real evidence, not hearsay or people's opinions let us know, for over 150 years there has been none, and certainly none by any true scholar that has done research. I suppose you know who killed Jon Benet Ramsey too because you watched a TV show.. Stupid!

[@tanjahorvatserbiaoldslavsh4685]

The 24-year-old man was close to the girl only 4 years old. They were alone with him in his room. Letters. Pages missing in his diary. Photos collection. Kisses. Magic mushroom. Weird creepy book. - P...

[@mrunning10]

Dodgson was NOT "close" to a 4-year-old! Replay, listen this time, get the years and the dates right this time.

[@mrunning10]

If you think the book is weird and creepy then get help. And you parents need help to for raising you with obvious neurosis.

[@joannortham5517]

I suggest that the rift between Dodgson and the Liddels could not have been very serious. Serious enough perhaps for them to speak to him about his conduct, and for him to retreat to his own lodgings and not to visit them for a time. But not serious enough, apparently, for them never to invite him again. He may perhaps have overstepped the social boundaries of the time in a manner that today we would consider unimportant, but which would at that time have been regarded as suffficiently inappropriate to merit such a reprimand. However, the fact that the Liddels invited him again, after some time had passed, does not suggest to me that his conduct in any serious manner alarmed Alice's parents.

[@mrunning10]

Not only invited him again but the daughters remained in social contact all his life.

[@katjoyky]

I never liked this book as a child. I always found it frightening and dark. To me, there was just a spirit about the story that felt unsafe even as a small child. I would wager that he was a pedophile whether he realized it or not. Lots of similarities with Michael Jackson. Even if he never directly sexually assaulted these children and pre-teens, taking naked photos of them was abusive enough. How he used these photos in private makes me skin crawl. Pages cut from his diary and the rift with Alice's family are extremely telling.

[@saskoilersfan]

Only in America can a person be born a poor black boy and die a rich white man._. Hahahaha. He died from micheyll and hide syndrome ._. A black person who turned into a monster , a white man._.

[@LaCarusiella]

Turned into a monster, a white man?! Excuse me that is so racist and disgusting, I bet you are a black sick racist...you want respect but give none

[@saskoilersfan]

Micheal jackson was a black man who became a monster ._. Lolo He had the Mickyll and hide sin-drome._. Only in a society of lies " will the real Michael jackson please stand up" . It doesn't matter if your black or white, the voice sounds the same._. Hahahaha In a society of lies, gullible people think its a society of truth._.

[@scottleft3672]

You have woven evil into your mind, i pity you.

[@jamesupton4996]

Both books are genius works.

[@linafumar7963]

Obviously, the rift is scandalous. Why would nieces of Lewis Carroll ripped a page from his diary/biography.

[@odoggow8157]

@RavenPoe then the pedo ring keeping them all rich would have been exposed of course it's sus

[@shethewriter]

It sounds like her mom was just trying to protect her. Regardless of the legality of the ages, of course her mom would still want to be protective.

[@mrunning10]

Spot On. Dodgson was, even being at Christ Church, considered a "worker" his position in society not meeting that required by Mum. Simple as that. Alice was married at Westminster for heavens sake, shows you how high up the Liddell's were.

[@sonicvegeta01]

This is killing me, there is so many evidence of him being a creep but because of his fame people keep trying to find ways to innocent him. It sickens me.

[@1khristtii]

I feel like everyone would have known what you were talking about without actually showing the naked children.

[@bojo88]

My feelings exactly! I found it completely unnecessary to show those images too.

[@perelu3785]

Yes!!!

[@marsladyeureka2213]

I WOULDN'T WANT CARROLL ANYWHERE NEAR MY CHILDREN

[@Jennifahh]

well dont worry because he is dead you idiot

[@deaustin4018]

I always wonder what Carroll would have though about the 66 movie and Jefferson Airplane. They're certainly the most whimsical interpretations of his work.

[@michaelblankenau6598]

Excellent production . Well researched and lovingly presented .

[@LilyEvans1996]

I have no idea how a 24 year old can be great friends with a 4 year old.

[@MariaBaca-r8r]

I do lily Evans, very creative people can enjoy things that most unimaginative souls can't.

[@pattysherwood7091]

His was a secret world for a reason, I believe..

[@heaven7360]

Unless you have facts, don't accuse..I need more investigation rather than just all these questions. People believe what they want to so easily. It's dangerous and can really damage people

[@ivaninsuagc2559]

👏👏👏

[@mrunning10]

Exactly, when it comes to selling something today it involves scandal. Because the simplest explanations are boring. "MC" is Main Copy, the "Lorina" nude photo was NOT Lorina Charlotte Liddell, and the heirs, when they were cataloging Dodgson's estate simply got it wrong. It doesn't even look much like her when compared with your eyes to KNOW photos of Lorina taking at the same time.

[@JamesTaylor-yh9rl]

i think he wanted to stay a child

[@kookycoolauntkaryn5884]

James Taylor my sentiments exactly... I think he was just trying to hold on to his youth .

[@JamesTaylor-yh9rl]

i can understand that.i wich i was still 14

[@Nephilim0]

Don't we all?

[@JamesTaylor-yh9rl]

yes me too

[@IamPINKIEDaniels]

That's what they say about Michael Jackson 😂

[@okcampmerricat]

"he had just gotten his first camera and the friendship *developed* with him trying to get those first photographs..."

[@franklinstephen3268]

Hello 👋 how are you doing?

[@theaccidentalcook8557]

If ever they were to make a movie or bio about Lewis Carol on the BBC, I think they should cast Tom Hiddleston as Caroll as he bears a striking resemblance to him. Just a thought.

[@KiriakosVilchez]

Oh wow, yeah, that'd be a great casting choice. And with his acting abilities, he could definitely become Carroll.

[@albertangeloro5832]

Alice is the only book i have where i can open at random to almost any page and and find something intriguing.

[@indy_go_blue6048]

Fascinating. I of course read the book and watched the wonderful early Disney version of the story and knew that Carroll was a mathematician, but that's as far as it went. This video has really broadened my knowledge of the man in a very interesting way.

[@marionchase-kleeves8311]

5:15 i read A I W at 12 yrs old and was disturbed by the behavior of the adults in the story. I felt vulnerable and afraid. Unfortunately the most important adult relations gave me reason to be afraid. When children behaved like these characters I was mystified

[@ginaandseason2774]

Same!

[@RicTic66]

I am lucky enough to have lived in Oxford for the last 25 years, the city and the countryside around have many visible references to 'Alice in Wonderland ' and Through the Looking Glass. One of my favourites is at Nuneham Courtenay where looking out over the countryside from Nuneham House the fields on the other side of the Thames still pan out like a chess board, giving LC his inspiration for the setting of through the looking glass.

[@donnajorgensen457]

As a child I was always spooked by Alice in Wonderland. It was a bit creepy to me.

[@mrunning10]

Ohhh, Lord help us by being spooked by a story! And if it's creepy go see your local psychoanalyst to find your lost childhood.

[@adrianasolari492]

@@mrunning10You good?

[@mrunning10]

I'm fine as can be. You? Don't be "spooked" by ANYTHING. Eyes Open. READ. AAIW. Understand. @@adrianasolari492

[@welshie2007]

Its still creepy.

[@mrunning10]

For WOMEN. AAIW is the first and still one of the best of a smart and independent female looking at the world and saying "No! This is silly and what is being told to me is ridiculous! I know what's real and what's not and what's wrong and what's the truth. I am strong and know what's right!") Seriously, go read it. AAIW opens a window. Then talk to someone about WHY it feels creepy to you. Cast away those learned inner demons. (you do know that the photograph of the nude teenager is NOT Lorina Charlotte Liddell? Just BBC sensationalism) @@welshie2007

[@kafkollectif525]

I recommend the Annotated Alice which has detailed footnotes on the entire 2 books, and The Complete Works which includes all his writing as well as his math and logic puzzles. The way Alice moves on the chessboard when she goes through the looking glass go along with actual chess moves, you can play it all out on a board if you’d like. That’s why when she gets to the end of the board she’s crowned Queen 👑

[@staninjapan07]

On a separate matter, the elephant in the room is the lack of mentioning of psychoactive substances as one of the possible drivers being Carrol's imagination and imagery.

[@fromchomleystreet]

Thank heavens for Liddell girls. I’ll get my coat.

[@jakeshaw6827]

36:12 her hair part is so wide or maybe its the lighting but if not dam

[@lionessjustme3023]

Same