David Deutsch and Naval Ravikant - The Fabric of Reality And Much More | The Tim Ferriss Show

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Resources from this episode: tim.blog/2023/03/23/david-deu...
David Deutsch (@DavidDeutschOxf) is a visiting professor of physics at the Centre for Quantum Computation, a part of the Clarendon Laboratory at Oxford University, and an honorary fellow of Wolfson College, Oxford. He works on fundamental issues in physics, particularly the quantum theory of computation and information and especially constructor theory, which he is proposing as a new way of formulating laws of nature. He is the author of The Fabric of Reality and The Beginning of Infinity, and he is an advocate of the philosophy of Karl Popper.
Naval Ravikant (@naval) is the co-founder of Airchat and AngelList. He has invested in more than 100 companies, including many mega-successes, such as Twitter, Uber, Notion, Opendoor, Postmates, and Wish. You can see his latest musings on Airchat and subscribe to Naval, his podcast on wealth and happiness, on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find his blog at nav.al.
For more Naval-plus-Tim, check out my wildly popular interview with him from 2015 (nominated for “Podcast of the Year”) and our conversation from 2020.
Naval also co-piloted the interviews with Ethereum creator Vitalik Buterin and famed investor Chris Dixon.
Please enjoy!
Tim Ferriss is one of Fast Company’s “Most Innovative Business People” and an early-stage tech investor/advisor in Uber, Facebook, Twitter, Shopify, Duolingo, Alibaba, and 50+ other companies. He is also the author of five #1 New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestsellers: The 4-Hour Workweek, The 4-Hour Body, The 4-Hour Chef, Tools of Titans and Tribe of Mentors. The Observer and other media have named him “the Oprah of audio” due to the influence of his podcast, The Tim Ferriss Show, which has exceeded 900 million downloads and been selected for “Best of Apple Podcasts” three years running.
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[00:00] Intro
[08:03] The impact The Fabric of Reality and The Beginning of Infinity have had on Naval.
[10:07] The four strands.
[13:04] Dispelling common misconceptions about science.
[19:26] How does knowledge grow?
[24:26] The benefits of understanding the four strands.
[32:47] How quantum computing arose from trying to test a multiverse theory.
[37:40] What a good explanation looks like.
[42:43] How do conjecture and criticism give us a basis for optimism?
[48:38] Translating knowledge into action.
[51:20] Artificial intelligence (AI) vs. artificial general intelligence (AGI).
[56:54] AGI is people! But how do we ensure it’ll be good people?
[1:03:03] What’s taking AGI so long to get here?
[1:08:59] Chemical scum that dream of distant quasars.
[1:17:47] Are humans central to the universe, or just a sideshow?
[1:20:17] Wealth and resources.
[1:25:30] Recommended thinkers.
[1:28:05] Taking Children Seriously, ToKCast, Critical Rationalists, and Popper 101.
[1:31:55] David’s most interesting problems right now.
[1:39:24] Parting thoughts.

[@timferriss]

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[@slawa_larin]

Naval talks so much about david deutsch and his books. it's really nice to hear them talk to each other. I feel like Naval is a little excited. Happy for him

[@arcnemesis]

Naval has talked about scientists being his true heroes.

[@AA-tv9tc]

I was also surprised that Naval has emotions, I thought that he is an AI

[@mabedarefav]

​@@AA-tv9tcnaval is ❤

[@danielnofal]

David is the most intelligent and articulate human around

[@karnbirrandhawa5872]

Babe wake up, new Naval pod just dropped!

[@MaximB]

One of the best conversations with David Deutsch I've listened to yet.

[@AaronMartinProfessional]

What just happened?! Is this happening? I'm soo grateful to Naval for introducing me to Brett Hall in one of his Clubhouse takeovers. And for Brett to bringing David Deutsch's and Karl Popper's philosophy of science, life, the universe and everything to light. I've been dropping comments to dozens of big KZbin channels to ask them to discuss their big ideas with David... and now TIM FERRISS brought in DAVID AND NAVAL?!? Oh jeez, my guilty pleasure on the internet is is fantasizing being part of this round table. 😂 THANK YOU! ALL OF YOU!!

[@codelucky]

I'm happy to see your excitement.

[@waleomotayo]

First time hearing David Deutsch’s voice and I’m definitely not let down! He sounds just as passionate about these topic as he comes across in his books.

[@robdaviesillustration]

Great quote here from David: “Rather than wanting to have learned something, I would recommend studying, or beginning to go into, something that looks interesting”

[@harshvijay7219]

Waiting for naval from such a long time. Thank you Tim for bringing naval back

[@GEN3SISEvolving]

New naval is truly a rare gem

[@saurabhchalke]

Naval literally means new man

[@NoorAlHajri]

What a legendary podcast episode, Tim! ❤ It's unfortunate that there was no video. I wish you growth and many more conversations like this. Loved the episodes with Kevin Kelly, and Derek Sivers recently. You've been killing it!

[@suvendroseal1724]

Please bring more of Naval on the podcast.

[@tatumscott6170]

“If you were able to look at the entire multiverse you would see Truth as a thing that is constantly repeated…~therefore~ The closer you are to the Truth, the more of you that exists in the multiverse” What a gem 💎

[@AnnTsungMD]

Agree! It's intriguing to think about how the concept of truth could manifest across multiple universes. It's an interesting idea that the closer we are to the truth, the more of ourselves we could potentially discover in the multiverse.

[@OfficialGOD]

Truth is elusive to people who believe in speculative hypothesis.

[@danielcastilho486]

Truth is all there is, it's infered to reflect that objective state of reality we humans can conceptualy deduce (entirely subjectively), but there isn't more or less of it anywhere. I'll have to try and listen to this one more time, but for all the praise it's receiving I'm surprised no one has given any feedback on how poorly structured so much of that Deutsch was saying was. Granted not everyone interviews well, but Tim should've perhaps asked an actual philosopher to help co-interview instead of a fan.

[@Lance_Lough]

Nice that you mentioned Brett Hall. He goes into marvelous depth explaining and reviewing David Deutsch's books and concepts, Karl Popper, and etc. I found his work a nice extension and illumination of these ideas.

[@El_Diablo_12]

Great podcast, it gets even better as you go deeper

[@prijal8262]

Wow, perfect timing. Thank you Tim

[@MosesRabuka]

Only Tim can get these two legends sitting in a room together, thanks for these nuggets of wisdom

[@pat_makes_stuff]

Well actually those two legends have sat in a room together before this podcast, on Navals podcast 😊

[@MosesRabuka]

@@pat_makes_stuff I listened to it too

[@pat_makes_stuff]

@@MosesRabuka nice

[@Mohammadparvazi]

Incredible. Thanks to all 3 of you.

[@lesterfernandes5287]

Waz waitin' for this. Thgank you.

[@TheMolecularDance]

Omg this is the podcast we all needed!!!

[@amber-gaming]

Glad to see Naval again!

[@vimalcurio]

hear*

[@lucassantiago5849]

Electrifying! I’m extremely grateful we have this incredibly minds reveal us the greatness of our world and human potential. I never imagine understanding reality and mind could be so beautiful and soothing.

[@sahilkhaire]

I was not ready for this!!!

[@kyra371]

This is going to be incredible

[@0ptimal]

This was the best kind of conversation.

[@jz5005]

Love the Chapter links!!!

[@CurtOntheRadio]

Amazing. Thanks.

[@thedojoclub]

i'm stoooooooked for this one

[@NilanMihindukulasooriya]

I was like Naval to have this much respect for someone is truly unique. Then found out of course he is the effing father of quantum computing. 😂 Great convo ❤

[@zuma404]

What a wonderful! Definitely expanded my mind! I need more please! 😅

[@mahinpm]

Thank you..Super stimulating ..

[@MrAcenit]

Wow..what an amazing conversation!

[@chrisrobbo]

Loved this one

[@ErnestoEduardoDobarganes]

Excellent talk !!!

[@prayaanshmehta3200]

8:15 "fabric of reality", "beginning of infinity" 11:33 4 strands 13:20 about david deutsch 14:34 epistemology karl popper 6 lectures 18:45 how does knowledge grow 19:33

[@EmperorsNewWardrobe]

Thank you. Always appreciated

[@o.m.kaya-ozturk1091]

Great conversation

[@wetyuu]

This is awesome

[@savascc]

What a great way to start a productive day.

[@coder_rc]

Takeaways: - We've theories and we have conjectures about them. We don't need experiments until there is some problem with the conjecture. - An explanation is a story that accounts for an event. - Science begins myths, good explanations begin by bad explanations. - A good explanation is one which is very hard to vary. Meaning that changing its variables does not require changing the explanation. - The only limitations that truly exist are the limitations of the laws of physics. - AGI is opposite to AI. In an AGI, the thinking product must be unpredictable as so is in human beings, but in an AI, the output is very predictable as the technology is only trained on limited data and limited data can only product predictable outputs.

[@DanielAnderssonmoppedanne]

Really great to see these ideas getting more reach. We are just in the beginning 🤗 I will bet David will be on: Lex, JRE and more pretty soon 😅

[@mohitandcinema]

After listening to naval, I wait for his next pod episode

[@pedrogorilla483]

David Naval and Deutsch Ravikant

[@chrisdavey3113]

This is one of those podcasts that I listen to and think, "the more people that hear this, the better off we will all be". Tim's got 1.22m subscribers as of today. This deserves at least 1m views. If anyone knows which Greg Egan book David was referring to around the 1h mark, that would be greatly appreciated.

[@team1275]

Great!

[@rohitnalluri]

This is gonna be great!

[@patrickrenschler5972]

“politicians and … trolls on the internet” 😂 remarkable how similar those two groups are. Great interview! (as expected)

[@jakobw135]

How do you understand the Theory of Evolution which is based on a random change,then having to adapt to natural selection,all to be randomly changed again, and expecting the result to fit in with the highly ordered structure of the universe?

[@BrunoPadilhaBlog]

Wooooo this is going to be good

[@NishantSinghRajputt]

4:14 Podcast start. Save your time.

[@kevind4061]

Ty

[@chalfontstgiles4307]

Maybe if we got Deutsch, Wolfram and a future iteration of GPT together in a room, we'd get the whole thing sorted?

[@udaypsaroj]

Nice try 😆

[@MosesRabuka]

“One day the AIs are going to look back on us the same way we look at fossil skeletons on the plains of Africa. An upright ape living in dust with crude language and tools all set for extinction” :Nathan, Ex Machina

[@steamerSama]

insanely good explanation of AGI vs AI and why we are far from it

[@brianhatano697]

Finally!

[@amytaylor8487]

Hello there👋👋,how are you feeling today? Hope you’re good today. Put your trust in God and everything will be blessed for you!!!❤

[@kevinsmith8799]

What are the 4 books that where recommended?

[@taylorfewell8378]

Does anyone know the Greg Egan book he described? I would love to read it!

[@choOz]

second

[@srzenon]

Zendegi

[@christopherhamilton3621]

Quarantine

[@williamsemenya]

I just saw the name Naval and I jump in

[@MarkRKhalil]

Would love to see Yuval and DD in a talk

[@dleddy14]

The Greg Egan novel David refers to is called "Quarantine".

[@vimalcurio]

why there's no video?

[@wildmanmike100]

As much as I enjoyed listening to these great men, I cannot but conclude this is entertainent at best. Our humanity is only possible with TRUTH hidden. That IMHO is the human condition.

[@stegemme]

so where is the disparity. That is the point of DD's philosophy

[@lukasjakob2969]

What is the name of the podcast mentioned at 1:28:20?

[@christopherhamilton3621]

“Theory of Knowledge (tOKCast) Podcast, by Brett Hall.

[@OnekamaProducts]

Timmy! I am writing another metaphoric message in a bottle and casting it adrift on the waves of the internet in the hopes your visual cortex will process it. I have product ideas, a brain, and a dream. I will help others in my position when i gain traction. So, if you help me, your helping hundreds of people! W/ Love- Mw

[@whoislewys3546]

No one's gonna put you on, start building homie. Easier than ever

[@OnekamaProducts]

@@whoislewys3546 It is a long shot, that is for sure. How would you go about launching a product similar to a fidget spinner? You have the idea, people say its good, but you lack the funds for making plastic tooling, prototyping, and a first run of production.

[@The10.000ThingsOfficial]

bro you need a visual podcast with naval bro , stop this solo audiio please jajajaj

[@BrunoPadilhaBlog]

It's amazing how even David Deutsch has biases and assumes certain subjective opinions as facts. Great podcast, so much knowledge, but also found that interesting to notice!

[@Jigga00]

Starts @ 4:13 after the advertising plugs.

[@Y.asinamorisha-wk8uq]

💥

[@nbme-answers]

1:41:46 Macaulay History of England

[@andreray6562]

Algorithm! This comment is to tell you to give me more of this.

[@prakharsaxena763]

. .m .

[@prakharsaxena763]

.?

[@feiyao1268]

“We are confined to what we can see.”

[@debjoydas7834]

Wohooooooooooooooooooo

[@thehari75]

NAVAL DA GOAT

[@visavou]

wow

[@sanamghods7429]

🧠💥

[@evitago]

Fun fact re: "Chess player's trying to become world champion don't think about having a good game", I'm pretty sure that has been the hallmark of Magnus Carlsen's playing: He rarely goes for boring lines, and there are many examples of him passing on an almost certain and beneficial draw in order to try for an uncertain win. Sure, he doesn't play "for fun", but he seems to think there isn't any point in winning if the games aren't interesting. I don't think that's irrelevant to his success.

[@ReversingSocietalMadness]

Did this man really start with a 5-minute double triple commercial lol? I'm not that familiar with him but I know he's popular. He must be really popular comfortable doing something like that lol

[@svenoscarhansen8847]

I find Donald Hoffmans ideas about the nature of consciousness more interesting, and more compelling. This discussion seems to exist within the confines of a purely materialistic paradigm. Rupert Sheldrake‘s ideas in this area are also very compelling.

[@christopherhamilton3621]

I find the opposite: Hoffman & Sheldrake are total kooks in my opinion.

[@user-qk3ou4es6e]

Science has found, and will continue to find, an explanation for HOW things come to be in our universe governed by the laws of physics. Science will never explain why, this is where religion is born. I however, see and know all... that is the true power of the sharingan.

[@javiervera6318]

This is exactly what physisist dont understand , they say that religion is wrong because ultimately it explains things using a deity, but then they go and ultimately explain all using a written law.. which is the same thing.. when physicists understand this , theyll go to Pure Math , and there they will find that they can continue exploration , they can study the category of all physics laws possible and then understand that laws are just axioms nothing more..

[@christopherhamilton3621]

Yet ‘God did it’ is no explanation whatsoever and nor is the backup claim that God knows everything and it’s beyond us. That’s stultifying and not explanatory either. So, at least, we’re at an impasse, but logic and epistemology seems to favour Deutsch’s argument, IMHO.

[@user-ut4zh3pw7l]

DAVID DEUTSCH ADAMDIR

[@Aedonius]

It's so funny to hear this discussion is already outdated by the advent of GPT-4. GPT-4 is a game changer. it has the common sense of a top percentile person in many domains. All it will take now is work to plug it into a robot and add a few other components, such as one that gives it agency. But it has common sense about dealing with the world. I disagree that today's systems that could be an AGI would be people. Thry would essentially be P-Zombies as they don't have the grounding of qualia, which contains feelings. It can have an integer value somewhere saying whether it feels good or bad, but this doesn't contain the essence of valence. It's mimicry. While we can build an AGI, it's much different than a sentient AGI.

[@suvendroseal1724]

Don't understand most of what David is saying.

[@cathalnugent1603]

The amount of solo audios and video conferences you are doing lately are really damaging the potential for even more stimulating conversations and the impact-fullness of the podcast

[@bobthewizard23]

Sorry but doesn’t anybody actually know what he’s going on about. Feel like he’s just saying words but without any meaning. Ok so a Giraffe didn’t grow their neck long to eat foliage… but why is it long then?

[@NicholasinUSA]

I think David would say something like if we don't have a theory that is a good explanation that can have variation, then we might not know why giraffes have long necks.

[@NicholasinUSA]

Another example could be why do people float in space, but they don't float on Earth. One possible theory somebody could have is that the gods are holding us up in space to float and they're not here on Earth to do that. David would say this is not a good explanation because you're immediately using the supernatural to explain it. Another possible explanation could be that there is a force that holds us to the ground on Earth that's not present in space. So, you just need to test the theory to make sure if it holds true. Obviously somebody has already figured that one out and the answer is gravity.

[@motostarmx1777]

exactly

[@motostarmx1777]

​@@NicholasinUSA why is there gravity?

[@bobthewizard23]

@@motostarmx1777 exactly 🤣 where do you draw the line

[@OfficialGOD]

Multiverse? More like Multi-BS, recommend Naval to get out of Science fiction bubble.. "The big problem with the multiverse idea is that physicists are confusing mathematics for reality." - Sabine Hossenfelder

[@OfficialGOD]

"Deutsch explains that the idea of the multiverse is not just a theory, but a necessary consequence of some of the fundamental laws of physics." Delusional

[@thomasseptimius]

So you are just replacing one authority with another? How about you try to explain what is wrong with Deutsch view instead.

[@Lance_Lough]

..and yet you refer to the opinion of Hossenfelder-a physicist...though not a great one like Deutsch..

[@gruntgobshite]

Hossenfelder 😂😂😂

[@YanusDV]

Have you even read D. Deutsch? I guess not

[@kyceB54]

Elephant in the room, this guy says AGI are equivalent to humans, and should be treated the same: This is what a world without a soul and God looks likes like. No offense to anyone here: Disgusting

[@christopherhamilton3621]

What makes it disgusting? 😂

[@kyceB54]

@@christopherhamilton3621 Soulless human beings. That how he sees human, if your whole entire life and love is just chemical reactions and nothing more

[@BozaCukuranovic3223]

Astonishingly dull

[@Brisius]

Naval please talk less, and instead listen. It's called an interview because we want to hear the thoughts of the person interviewed.

[@motostarmx1777]

listening to this only cements my belief in God.

[@hieroglyph321]

I laughed when the philosopher started talking about the end of toil... technology will improve things but will not end toil... if not physical toil then mental toil... because we as a society will not allow it... because then what would be the point of the 1%?...they'll never give up that power, and that power defines society ....this is where philosophers are dreaming happy thoughts in the clouds because it's always wrong and, perhaps uncharitably, is a hopeful lie they tell you.

[@betauserr-pb3ol]

I think you’re over interpreting his point on the matter. Wealth as a set of physical transforms can improve human life to an imaginable degree. This is clear if you look back in history at how the ever increasing pace of technological advancement has improved the way in which we live. We can imagine a world with little to no physical toil. But nothing was mentioned about ending all toil in the manner you interpreted.