Titanforging - The Pros and Cons

[@dragonslayerbond]

Saw an add for a gambling site for this video, no thanks I already play WoW

[@793Force]

That's a yikes from me dog.

[@dew6170]

This is some good shit

[@Darkrocmon]

I gamble in WoW...i lost 50k during raid last night

[@badassoverlordzetta]

WoW is myh anti-drug!

[@ChrisC97]

Guess why you got that ad in the first place mate ;-)

[@tinticit]

Well done, Preach. You are absolutely correct. One thing I would add, is that items just don't feel special anymore after Titanforging. I can't recall the name of any item I've picked up in the last 4 years besides my artifacts and legendaries. On the other hand, I remember every piece of loot I ever wanted in classic, tbc and wrath. I remember hunting for Havoc's Call, Deathbringer's Will, Azuresong Mageblade, and hundreds of other items. Titanforging removes the mystique and desire to get specific items in the game.

[@TheMarcVDV]

Dragonbreath Handcannon and the two fists from ZG. My hunter used them forever even when I had much better items just for how epic they made me feel. I wouldn't have a clue what my priest is using now.

[@FlaskTheTapir]

Havoc's Call, Blade of Lordaeron Kings? I didn't play back then and I still know it. Because it looks cool as fuck and also the name itself is memorable.

[@asdfasdfasdfasdf3229]

I hunted DST (Dragon Spine Trophy) the entire TBC and never got it to drop :(. Luckily I did get wolfslayer sniper rifle which lasted me even through Sunwell. Totally agree with you btw. Can't remember a single good trinket past Wrath minus the Sentinels Medallion because that lasted me all through Legion.

[@Beelz55]

The last item by name I can remember having and loving was the Soul Capacitor trinket during WOD. After that item everything just melted together for me. It's slowly been going down over the years. Looking forward to Classic where I can make a BiS List and farm for certain items. Say to myself ''I can't wait to get myself a Perdition's Blade'' or ''OMG Hand of Justice! omg omg omg omg *runs around room naked*''.

[@dni33]

I'm guessing your class didn't use convergence of fates from nighthold?

[@karlzone2]

Titanforging makes it so that you *cannot* care about gear without going insane. You cannot care about specific items anymore (except for trinkets and Azerite armor, or formerly, tier sets), you just have to make do with the best items that are assigned to you. I think that's a shame.

[@Croyszt]

karlzone2 i

[@Croyszt]

karlzone2 nôk

[@paatej]

and as you cannot target azerite gear, you just don't care at all.

[@jonmaciel]

I never liked it since it came out. I used to love making my theorycrafting spreadsheets with BiS lists and warforging/titanforging destroyed those lists. Made it feel like I couldn't work towards something for my characters anymore because I couldn't control what I chased for them.

[@tomwallen7271]

What items do I want? I don't care. I want whatever has the highest ilvl that happens to drop. Because of the Secondary Stat Squish, int/agil/str is king, and because of the titanforging/warforgning, higher ilvl can come from anywhere! So legitimately, I don't know what pieces my character is wearing, outside of my azerite gear. I just know I keep equipping whatever is the highest ilvl and I'm doing well. (I main resto druid, so I can't even really sim dps. Int just leads the way 100% of the time).

[@FlesHBoX]

Exactly this.

[@LethalShadow]

@Mart O War No no, according to Blizzard, players don't want to do math and actually have to think about anything other than "smash! kill! shinies!". Players don't want to make decisions that affect their character's power, or change their gameplay (You know, the very core of any RPG)... Honestly, Blizzard is so far out of touch with reality at this point that I don't have any hope for the future of the game. My sub ran out , as did all my friends' and we are not renewing.

[@Spinexus]

Titanforging would be totally fine IF it would be a player controlled system (like the upgrades in MoP)

[@pandasempai6459]

I miss the feeling of hunting the pieces on my BiS list. It gave me a goal that I could acomplish and work towards. Everytime you'd get a piece on that list you could check it off and it felt so good. Now I just don't care. Nowadays it is more: "This cloak is BiS? Too bad it isn't Titanforged so it is just garbage." You have to grind for the same piece of hope it is best. You can target gear but now you have to hope for it to drop and hope it titanforges. The system just feels bad.

[@sundertooth1666]

I love the idea of bis lists, and farming raids with the exact same gear as others in my spec, that way we can complete on an even playing field. However, I only think that was applicable when specs were more complicated. Two people competing with identical gear with really simple and easy to optimize specs are kind of just coming down to who gets the best rng, not who is optimizing and making the right choices with their spec.

[@AdrasAdraki]

Isnt the array thingy in uldir doing the same thing tho basically? Why do we need titanforge if they have introduced mechanics that will make the encounters easier and easier?

[@webbc99]

The array thing is basically the raid buff mechanic which was seen back in ICC, a stacking buff which either nerfed the bosses or buffed the raid and it got stronger over time. It's not a new thing, and I guess it does have some similar effects but it is at least contained to the raid and not super random.

[@AdrasAdraki]

@@webbc99 yeah i mean th3 biggest effect of titan forging can be seen at raids thats why i brought it up. I mean i dont think ppl will need titanforge warfront gear to clear the warfront so /s

[@confusedpebble6265]

That's a really good point. A raid/encounter centered mechanic that removes the need for people to look for ways to get around an issue. I really like vantus runes for this as well. I wonder if they could come up with a system that's centered around this thought process and remove the entire titan forging/gem forging system.

[@RyanBM]

so I think its a good example but for me it doesn't work as a comparison because the nature of the array is not rng, it is an earned deterministic reward.

[@AdrasAdraki]

@@RyanBM Which is what makes it better imo.

[@Numalex6690]

I had to start including that I hate overgearing content into my guild applications. People not AoTC and 375+ilvl looking at me like I'm the problem at 366 because I'm not doing my M+s each week. Never mind the fact that the same person lecturing me is rocking

[@Jaigarful]

7:00 Yes Preach, that issue happened with my guild, even with warforged system in HFC. Guild was stuck for over a month on mythic gorefiend, and we would reclear and get maybe 1-2 total pieces from the reclear up to him. If your guild gets stuck and can't overpower an encounter eventually, they disband. Mistress in ToS destroyed a lot of the lower end mythic raid guilds.

[@busterx28x]

I am at 8:49.... That scenario does happen. For those guilds who dont min/max what toons to bring or do, it is entirely possible for the casual raid scene to get stuck on a boss. It may be because they are not bringing the right toons. Look at Tomb of Soakgaras. If you didnt have mages or immunes there are some fights you just wont get by..UNLESS you titan forge and cheese it that way.

[@Wickertop]

Spot-on as always, and I honestly think the point that's most resonant is the one you made about your preferred gearing system - where bosses just drop what they drop. In Vanilla, if a player had an Ironfoe or a Hand of Justice, you knew that player had spent quite a significant time farming Blackrock Depths and beating the end boss (who was no joke) in 99% of cases. You knew they were dedicated towards long-term goals, had the people skills to form groups and/or the temperament to not let runs fall to pieces, and you knew they were serious about their personal character progression. These items showed more than an item level number, they showed what kind of content you did and how dedicated you were to getting it. Rare drops sucked when they did not drop, but made up for it when you finally DID get it. Letting players get higher-level gear from lower-level content was never a good idea. If they want players to go back to older content, give meaningful rewards to them that matter outside of gearing - pets, mounts, transmog options, recipes, reagents... but not gear. Gear is the hard bottleneck that helps players improve.

[@Flamestormq]

I think for me personally, what made me so enthused and dedicated to becoming better was that I was doing it for something. Played very intently from vanilla to early cata, and each expansion with the guild I eventually joined made my actions motivated and worth while. I pushed myself to learn about soloing and how to create workable groups in vanilla as a resto druid, because I had to reach a certain threshold to even be taken to re-run raids so I could be main raider worthy. In BC when it was apparent druid could tank and were exceptionally valuable in fights like Gruul, they offered me the switch and it was exciting to work with guild mates to have my clefthoof set made. I spent 2 weeks farming primals and then just raw gold so I could pay someone from a top end guild in my server to make me a belt of natural power from SSC when my guild was only just starting to clear Khara/Gruuls. Then in Wotlk I kept the tanking as my main, but on fights where they wanted only 1 tank they asked if I could learn dps, and I committed to that level where I was a top 3 in my guild and they argued on some fights if they should make someone else gear up for tanking and keep me as feral dps. I hit cata and what happens? My guild falls apart. I was able to get in another guild with some people I became friends with early in my wow days, but it wasn't the same. Tried leveling two other classes to see if I was just bored of druid (war/dk), but nothing changed. I quit wow briefly, came back when panda land started and didn't like some of the changes, and then quit until pre legion as that did make me interested in the game again. And I did enjoy legion. I enjoyed the somewhat single person journey I had with the artifact system(I played frost dk wit blood on the side), and I even got in a new guild and did some Nighthod tomb stuff, and even did mythic+. But that eventually faded but I enjoyed my single player side to things. Now? I still play. I've enjoyed leveling alts more, I have 4 different ones I cycle through on a once weekly basis so I don't burn myself out. My new lock main is definitely fun (sad demo still isn't super competitive), but I have little desire to do raiding outside of LFR for the story. I don't do mythic+ unless a friend needs help, and I've stopped doing most WQ unless it is a direct item upgrade, or I need the rep (stupid turtles are the only ones left). The point of my post is to thank you Preacher for reminding me why I use to play the game. I really hope they do something, as I've only really enjoyed playing the newest content because I had a fun new spec that was interesting and I liked the design. But when I grow bored, will there be anything else to keep me playing?

[@sirkoltas4087]

Bad metrics -> bad decisions -> small problems -> butterfly effect -> bad design.

[@MajkaSrajka]

Metrics weren't the worst - it were the small steps they did. They introduced daily heroic once, and then made sure that EVERYONE can do it as a farm drooling noob content etc.

[@sirkoltas4087]

Every small step since badje of justice has led to this day. First time i unsubbed was when wotlk beta was under way and i started noticing this trend. Only my friends have kept me to this day in here. But I knew it 8 years ago that something BIG changed in the background philosophy during WOTLK and after 8 years I have the bittersweet pleasure to say "I told you so". I'm sad

[@TheRexTera]

Metrics for participation is there for the lead designer for WoW to make a case for Activision executives and shareholders why they should piss so much money into this old game. If something has low participation they wouldn't be allowed to use so much development time and resources to develop it. This is why LFR need to be in the game because if not then every raid would be as poorly and rushed designed as MC that was made in one week. I hate to say it because it's so political, but GET WOKE!!! WoW is the very definition of designed by comity.

[@sirkoltas4087]

Partecipation and success rate are two different metrics to begin with.And tou are talking about something that came WAAAAY later (4 years after the mentality shift i was talking about) so no, point denied.

[@Spinexus]

I would argue the bad design is the catalyst and titanforging the result!

[@trj7956]

Good video, I was absolutely *obsessed* with staying ahead of the curve in BFA before I unsubbed. When I was doing random heroic dungeons on day 1/2 of the expansion every single Dungeon Finder run was a nightmare, and we died more often than any of the normal mythic dungeon runs I did immediately afterwards. And on the final week of normal mythic dungeons before Uldir dropped, I had awful groups on almost all of the mythic dungeon groups I joined, whereas I had zero issues and a ton of fun the initial run through without knowing mechanics and 20 less item level simply because I was ahead of the curve and playing with people that were good. Same thing with Mythic+. My runs of +6/7s and even my +10 on week 1 were so much easier than any random +6/7 with people up to 25 item levels higher. If you aren't ahead of the pack in WoW your gameplay experience is AWFUL because of warforging and welfare gearing. It's always going to be that way, but when I, for example, join an O11S pug in FFXIV, I know that the players are going to be at a decent level. They're not going to be as good as the people ahead of the pack, but I can be assured they're at least good enough to be at that level of content. If I join a random mythic+ in WoW there's a good chance people aren't supposed to be there, and have inflated their gear from warforging and excessive welfare gearing.

[@Trollrocker89]

I experienced the same in the first few weeks. Crap damage, no kicks, no ccs. It was horrible. After that I only go with guild members.

[@TheSmob89]

How about a system that lets you warforge/titanforge with badges? you can even make it a part of blacksmithing.. jewlcrafters should be able to add sockets to your gear, inscription should let you add a tertiary stat... enchanters should have... idk enchants? it would make items feel more rewarding if you knew that you could upgrade them, it would let you farm the specific items you want, and also if you got a titanforge drop you would be happy knowing you didn't have to spend the resources to upgrade it. Not my idea but this seems like the obvious solution.

[@onyxthelegend]

This was actually in the game during MoP. Farm badges via Raiding & Dungeons, spend them to increase the ilvl of each piece of gear twice, adding 8lvls to each piece. You could upgrade two pieces a week. Served same purpose as warforging/titanforging as well as a replacement for the weekly health and damage nerfs in raids. I miss it.

[@yavvivvay]

They wanted less satisfaction and more excitement. The badge systems were healthy, but there was a moment they just went too far. In MoP you had badges for badges for upgrades to gear from badges :)

[@xersys]

Once again the proof that the gearing systems of pre cataclysm were the best gearing systems.

[@confusedpebble6265]

You make some really interesting points. I used to not care about titanforging/warforging; I simply didn't use it as a goal post and didn't care what someone's gear rolled. The one thing that did bother me about it is that I never knew what any ilvl really meant. Like what does having 350 in PVE now mean? So, I simply did not enjoy that loss of... "narrative" that comes from clear power levels. From this video though I can definitely see how it can be detrimental to the game as a whole. I really like the idea of walls people cannot just break through, but have to overcome no matter what. Overcome through mechanics, knowledge, or just sheer luck, but it means something to overcome it; TF seems to take away that meaning. Did I overcome it because I got better or because I got better gear since I didn't do anything different this time around? Idk, interesting topic though. TF wouldn't be as much of an issue if ilevel wasn't so impactful to a character's strength and perception. But because it is, TF convolutes things too much and so we have to rely on different points of measure. I still find myself hoping they would do something to the proving grounds for us to use it as a gauge. I think in the end Blizzard wants to solve a problem they see (people stuck and bashing their heads), and just not recognizing that it's ok and even good to have that particular problem because it adds meaning in different ways.

[@lordhawkeye]

Titan forging has also taken the joy of hunting down what you might think is best in slot and turned it into a slot machine. Did you get the item? Pull again. Did you get it now? Did it titanforge? Pull again. Did it drop, titan forge twice AND gem slot? Pull again. You are begging the system to give you triple 7's each pull of the slot machine. And people are more vocal about this issue thanks to a shitty expansion not being able to hide it. We have no control beyond pulling the lever. And it sucks to be so tightly bound by RNG. Give us back some control through hard work. How about a new faction based vendor beside the scraptron1000 with a quest chain that ends in unlocking manual war/titan forging. The vendor shows up after some sort of goal is reached like friendly/honored with all, your neck hit lvl 15-20ish or honored with Proudmoore Admiralty/Zandalari. You hand over the appropriate mats for the item you want to upgrade and congrats. Lets say skin & bones for leather, gems for rings, bolts of enchanted cloth for cloak, you get the picture. Toss in expulsom, hydrocore & sanguicell where it would be the correct item level for them. At neutral they can only war forge say item level 310 stuff and under. As you rep up with this new faction the mat costs go down on lower tier stuff, titan forge the lower tier stuff and a higher tier of item level they can now work on unlocks for war forging. At exalted is another quest chain that finishes with titan forging any bfa item that could get the titan forge upgrade. Put the vendor on a 3-5 day cool down I guess if you still want to bottle neck the system a bit. Keep the random chance of it naturally happening. And when I say appropriate I don't mean 50 expulsom to titan forge a 310 either. Lastly I would put a war forge at +5 and titan forge at a flat +10. The fact that a titan forge can roll an item up something like +30 or higher is just silly and good luck balancing that.

[@Bentbooster]

WF & TF needs to go. Bring back BIS lists.

[@Przymiot]

07:30 yes, this does happen. Multiple times in the past for me.

[@MInquisition]

28:00 The issue here is that gear is an archaic game design element in 2018 when compared to the other streamlined features of WoW and other MMOs. It's a piece of a puzzle where every other piece around it has changed, and it doesn't make sense anymore, but Blizzard can't figure out what to do with it now. It used to be that each piece of gear had a relative strength, and each stat you had had relevant softcaps / breakpoints to reach. The emergent gameplay was that you'd target loot of the right slot (stat potency) that would help you hit these breakpoints without wasting points going over. It was a game of "I'm 2% short of my hitcap. This chest has hit on it, which caps me, but also is way more hit than I need. I can use it for now, but - this belt I can get from H Stonecore grants significantly less hit, but enough hit to cap me. Then I can use another chestpiece from H Throne of Tides with two other stats on it that I'll benefit from." Then we got reforging, which helped us do this in an even finer way, but that led to Askmrrobot just telling you what gear to get and how to reforge it to minmax. And that became a pain in the ass, so then we got QoL updates to haste to not waste partial ticks, and we got the removal of the hitcap, but now gear doesn't make sense. Every piece of gear is functionally identical, unless you play one of the few and far-between specs that still have stat breakpoints. Blizzard tried to fix this with the band-aid "feature fix" they always fall back on, but they've utterly fucked up by making it overly convoluted and boring for what it does. It's hard to argue that azerite gear *aren't* still just stat sticks, or that each piece of gear relates to the other pieces you're wearing like it used to. It's a broken system that genuinely needs complete reworking or overhaul.

[@pbf6969]

I am happy that you ended up making those BiS comments. I got a little frustrated during the beginning parts of the video because most of the time when I see people defending titanforging, they are doing it from the "oh, why do you care what other people have?" I have never had that thought, I genuinely don't care that one person is gonna get a max level titanforged weapon during a heroic dungeon, just like I don't care that some people are gonna get a bunch of BOE epics on the first day of the expansion while leveling. I always thought that the forging system was bullshit because it removed the sense of accomplishing the goal of gearing. I completely agree with your sentiment of "here, I have my BiS list, I know what I'm after. This raid content, I am going after these pieces and once I have them I am spending the rest of the time trying to play my role the best I can." That was always the most fun part of wow for me, the gearing for BiS process. I hear people being like 'well look, there's still BiS, you just can keep running it over and over again once you have it for upgrades" but I disagree completely that any item in the game besides a max ilvl titanforge is BiS and offer the bullshit surrounding the arcanocrystal trinket last expansion as a counter example. Currently the best trinket for resto shamans this tier is from a dungeon so I need to spam one and only one dungeon each week in order to hope that my cache has it, and even still I can do this the entire raid tier and never actually get it because it needs to be max ilvl or else it literally isn't BiS. That is extremely bad itemization design and it's not fun. There isn't any BiS, BiS means there is nothing that will be better. The only way you can be BiS is if you get extremely lucky on every single piece of gear you can wear and have them titanforge to the maximum ilvl. Maybe one person in the history of titanforging has had that happen? I doubt even one has. My best memories of WoW are from TBC and Wrath, and a lot of those memories are of crossing off items on my BiS list. With titanforging, there is never that moment, because each week I am just spinning a wheel hoping I get the same piece of gear but at least 5 ilvls higher. I never gave a shit about other people getting lucky. What I hate is that they have made gearing into an endless loot box grind to keep people subbing and keep people chasing a phantom carrot. There is no feeling of reaching a goal because there is always a not guaranteed possibility that you might get lucky and get an extra few ilvls, or god forbid a shit ton of them, but again, completely by random chance. They have made gearing into a purposefully endless process and to me, as someone who always found gearing the most satisfying part of WoW besides the first time you down the end boss of a raid, it is extremely frustrating and lacks any and all fun.

[@xavariusquest4603]

Deserve...it is viewed as a harsh word these days. It triggers so many...too many. Forgotten by those who feel offended is that you have to earn what you deserve. You don't get it simply because you subbed. Forgotten is that the purchase and sub gained you entry into the world of Azeroth...and that only. Exploration, learning, building relationships, and dedicated effort are the components that bring you success, gear, rewards, and fun. When an MMO stops demanding this from its' player base then it has become nothing more than a glorified playdate. Now there's your WoW.

[@JustMrNiko]

as much as I agree, I think EA. have some of the blame when it comes to words like ''deserved'' and ''accomplishment'' being used when describing gear and loot.

[@paatej]

Oh god this comment made me sit and sob in sadness..

[@svhr1959]

Never forget, that there are 20+ times more 'casuals' than there are mythic raiders or those running +15 keys currently. I also think you over emphasise the number of players that actually care about their parses or raider io score. 90% of the player base are not arsed.

[@TonyBone21]

As a casual non-raider I liked the surprise of a forged upgrade, but I can agree with Preach's perspective that its certainly unearned. While it deepens the population of potential content contributors I can also see its detriments. Another fair and well argued piece Preach! Thanks for sharing your perspectives with those of us on the "low end"

[@Nr4747]

For me, someone who gets most his gear from raiding and then some extra stuff from the M+10 cache per week, Titanforging is working as intended. When we're farming heroic Uldir, I still have the chance for a small upgrade, despite not needing any of the non-upgraded stuff that can drop there. This makes farming the content to gear-out our lesser geared players a lot more enjoyable for me. Plus the small upgrades here and there do help for our (slow and semi-casual) mythic Uldir progress.

[@gdragon56]

Hey, where is the TDPs for BFA. I really enjoyed those. They helped me be a better healer and player watching those. Gave me confidence.

[@seifyk]

I feel like this started back in the first tier of Cata with the random roll gear off of Al'akir and in Firelands. That gear felt bad then, because it was invariably BIS for some people... but only if it rolled perfectly. So you had people finishing the tier after killing it week after week not having BIS. I really just miss BIS. :(

[@Ebonmourn]

My biggest issue with it is that it makes it were there isn't a end to gear / gear slots.. the existence of BIS is a good thing.. it gives you a end, a definitive goal to strive for..

[@maxchumka]

I was watching footage and remembering my own experience from those days and only realizing Preach was talking 10 min into a video :)

[@samdavis6722]

I think its pretty clear how much more exciting it is to gear up without titanforging from the first couple weeks of BfA. The only gear I actually targeted was a good two-hander. Although it was pretty disappointing when it didn't drop from my mythics the first two weeks, I was super excited when I got the drop off of Taloc. Knowing that what you have been working towards is the best you can get makes it so much more satisfying when you finally get that piece.

[@iTunsiscool26]

Did you slow down the emerald dream footage to prolong the video's commentary? It's weird seeing it slowed down

[@infinitesorrows21]

I was running an LFR on my hunter and got a Titan forged belt. Basically that means I don't have to replace that slot until next patch. If anything, Titan forged should be an endgame upgrade you can give to a couple items similar to the legion legendaries.

[@SondaroSasuke]

Titanforging makes items not be unique. Last night I got MOTHER's warglaive. It felt good... until I saw another DH got it with +5ilvl. Suddenly it doesn't feel unique. It feels like a "worse" version. I remember I snapped when I got Apolyon the Soul Render from KJ back in Sunwell, but I don't have that feeling with anything anymore.

[@zorashki]

No it doesn't, It's just you think it's nothing... The difference between a 385+ item and a 395+ isn't OMGGGG I now 1 SHOT. . it's just a fucking small number that no one cares about.

[@zodsi]

i like the competetive and undeserving gear points the most, good video mate

[@caboose8402]

This feels like one of the best analyses of the profits and pitfalls of the Titanforging system. It IS fun while leveling, but it definitely FEELS like it would be a disincentive at the high end to go further AND for less-skilled players to get better. Carries only feel good when it's your friends doing it. My 335 Destro Lock can do 6k without popping CDs and up to 12k with them. That should be the norm (considering class differences of course; Destro IS bursty). It would be nice to see some of these once-cool, now-antiquated systems walked back and get back to skills > gear.

[@mimer101]

I feel like a lot of these problems started with homogenisation of classes and invalidation of "old" content. Iirc people would still want Dragonspine Trophy well into tier 5 or 6. As time went on, old content became irrelevant more quickly. I remember Highmaul being absolutely dead when Foundry hit in Warlords of Draenor. Maybe that was just for my guild, but we never finished up the last mythic boss. Part of this is because every boss will drop multiple relevant items for literally every spec, which is what I ment with homogenisation. There isn't really an interesting gearing process if every boss drops items that'll work for every spec. I play a DK, and my DPS gear/tanking gear is basically the same. Maybe I'll swap a trinket or an azerite piece if I need to, but for the most part it's the same set. My experience in BFA has been that gear got thrown at me for two weeks, followed by exclusively maybe hopefully sometimes kind-off getting an upgrade on wednesday. Good system 5/7. I'm excited for Classic. Farming UBRS when I want to get a trinket that'll stay with me for months is more rewarding than pulling a slot machine lever on resetday to possibly get a +5 on a piece I already have.

[@natehighlander5227]

Thank you Preacher! Awesome video bro and well said. I hope blizzard watches this.. when someone is striving to be the best they can be and there's no way to attain that and there's no way to show their skill because the playing field is all blurred with titanforging it just doesn't seem to be very fun no longer competitive and there's no longer the feeling of success when you finally get your best in slot and then you can play other classes because you feel completed.. I know what the high-end people play multiple classes anyway but for a lot of Mythic Raiders not at the high end you kind of feel forced to be your best in order to stay part of the team

[@Theyhunger2426]

Small request to have the Legacy of The Priest video added to the Legacy playlist?

[@garygarner6668]

Yas mate, love me a new preach KZbin vid.

[@velkatix1211]

Its reasons like this, that i am glad ilvl is becoming less and less a requirement. Where as peoples abilities, their characters niche, and their stat priorities are becoming the attraction. I have watched numerous players who are trash cans recieve these nutty titan forge drops and their item level is 10 to 15 higher than most out side of heroic/mythic raiding and doing less dmg and dying more frequently than the 350 range players who are geared to their class and have the knowledge of the game. Im also sad to see the nasty power creep going on in such a quick pace. The number crunch was an absolute necessity but even with that the ramp up of fresh toons and peoples mains is so fast and so ridiculous. It feels like the crunch happened just to double the speed of gearing and maximizing your numbers. Thanks for another great vid preach

[@johnsvensson6446]

About the point (around 17:45) where you state that forging matters more at lower levels because the base item level is lower... I don't think that's true. As far as I know, stats on an item grow exponentially with item level, so a 20 ilvl increase is the same (%-wise) from a 370-390 titanforge as from a 305-325 titanforge. Sockets matter more at lower levels though, since a socket is a flat increase.

[@SouthendLad600]

Hey preach, how about mergeable items. Loot item 1 once, it’s at level 1. Loot it again and then you’re at level 2. Like the old rings did in WoD? And maybe after a few you get the chance to add a slot or Ilvl?

[@srenbodin5304]

I completely agree on the note of titanforging, but on the note of items not being interesting i often wonder if they seem uninteresting due to legion having EVERY possible cool thing added through legendaries, artifact and VERY powerful trinkets? thoughts on this, please!

[@Shadowstorm5400]

I love the fact you brought up badges and badge gear lich king raiding was the most fun I ever had doing raids because we could progress through each raid and wether you got a drop or not you could get a badge and get something else you needed instead then when the next raid came out it was rinse and repeat and you could just enjoy the content

[@baang8229]

How about capping the TF to 5-10 level and making it so an item can only TF after you have equipped the base level piece, so if I get a weapon drop in a 10 it can only TF when I loot it for a second time maybe even make it 5 levels at a time so if I want the max TF I need it to drop a 3rd time? This would remove the luck aspect, make it so I need to work for the titanforge but going into the farm I will know I'm going to profit IF that specific item drops.

[@katbusch3929]

I agree on your points, especially as related to overgeared/underperforming. To that end I think it must be mentioned that the same result occurs when top guilds use high-end content to make money. On a good day nearly half the M+ or Uldir PUG listings are "WTS CARRY". I personally feel that issue is the more prevalent cause of overgeared/underperform.

[@djketran]

Blizzard had a perfectly good solution to the "Getting stuck on a Boss" mechanic back in ICC, the weekly stacking Raid buff, same with reorigination array currently in Uldir. This reduces the scaling needed tier to tier, since the buff is only for that raid, and given an option to turn it off, also allows for some sort of score for guilds who want to clear without the buff

[@Imupsided0wn]

Ì love these 'discussion' videos, indepth videos alot! :) Keep them coming ^^ Reason I love the stream, because you do it there alot aswell!

[@Clutzydoo]

how did they go so far back from legion. Its mind boggling.

[@fleperd7021]

the best feeling is having everything bis and progressing to get bis and knowing you feel more powerful just with this one piece of gear instead of getting a chest piece that titan forged getting excited for a second and then moving on with your day

[@petethethirdboo]

Wasn't even paying attention to the end of the video because that almost-wipe at 1% had me in a cold sweat

[@cloudstrife2131]

The history puts the whole system into perspective, but rather than arguing against TF only further justifies it. TF is necessary because WoW decided it would be all about raiding and nothing else. (In recent years now all about Raiding+MythicPlus). When you funnel the ENTIRE playerbase down into the same avenue you cannot say to them "sorry, you cannot do this content". Well you can, but then they unsub and you lose money. Other game deal with this by HAVING OTHER STUFF TO DO, ie, a deep and expansive crafting and economic system, long grinds and collections, open world exploration, emergent pvp content, or whatever. When a "bad player" can't do the absolute hardest content it's fine, they feel like the game still provides value for them and their playtime. In a 15 year old game content should ABOUND, but instead the "trash and replace" expansion model means millions of people are funneled along into the exact same content at the exact same time, and therefore, requires all must be able to complete that content. So it only has itself to blame.

[@nimanowabadi5888]

My friends and i often talk about this and think back to vanilla and tbc. I remember back in tbc when i was a noob, the learning curve that came with gear. Getting full epic was no easy task, and every time you changed that blue item for an epic! Man that felt awesome, the hype was real! I remember calling my friends if they werent online, and running around the house like i won the lottery. It was amazing. I really miss that. And i know it could be compared to maybe doing your first mythic or mythic+ dungeon or so, but i really hate the fact that you are almost full epic after a couple of hours after you ding max lvl. After that it feels like you are just hunting numbers... Thats the beat thing about Raider.io, you get this scoreboard, and i love the way i can then challenge myself by simply loooking at my poorest dungeon and try to push that. I dont really mind warforging, but titanforging i hate. It feels terrible because now its not the best weapon unless its 395 with socket, and that is terrible if you've tried for a long time to get it. You should feel exstatic like i mentioned earlyer. I think you should keep warforging as it is, at 5 or 10 ilvl and maybe a bonus stat and or socket or simply have gear from raids have a socket as the standard to maybe incentivise people to raid. I feel like Blizzard saw this problem with the overgeared people who dont perform to their ilvl and the fact that there is no learning curve anymore. With things like proving grounds and mage tower challenges but they Arent perfecting it. Why not have an NPC at the training dummy, who would give some tips when you are below where dps should be. Like "hey maybe try using more x ability" or "remember to use y before x for increased Damage" this could help people alot i think. You could maybe do the same with an NPC throwing stuff at you while you are damagin the dummy, to teach Them to mind their surroundings, run to avoid Damage, pick Up powerups og even to help them be alert to spells that needs interrupts/purges/spellsteals etc

[@MInquisition]

8:18 "And the way we're going to do that is to introduce -valor points, which will let you upgrade your current gear after killing a certain amount of raid bosses, so you can reliably progress your character- Thunderforge Gear, letting you get random upgrades sometimes!" Swear to god, the brains of the dev team went out the window after Cata ended. They've literally spent the last like 8 years trying to fix the same problem with solutions that only cure the byproduct of the main issue.

[@jethrodark2372]

Also the whole reason they got rid of tier was because of TF because in legion people wanted to use that sexy TF gear we got from the weekly chest but couldnt because of tier and leggos instead of them removing the problem they blamed tier/leggos and removed them instead now everyone wants tier back lul, TF is causing so many problems its like in a hospital blizz is treating the symtoms not the cause.

[@kjellannn]

Same with them bot wanting to add reforging... it woud fix allmost everything with Ilvl

[@jethrodark2372]

Alexander kjellberg dude i aggree but we both kno blizz dont wanna fix the game they like it broke, in their minds they wanna do anything and everything to keep u playing keep chasing that carrot which is funny because if they fixed the game and made it better/fun less people would quit.

[@MrReZx]

I liked the way warforging/titanforging worked in ToT/SoO, where there was only one level to it. If I recall correctly it worked simularily in WoD, only with a different ilvl-boost. The problem that I have with the system really started in Legion where any item can titanforge almost an unlimited amount of levels. For example one of my guildies got got a titanforged normal level piece of teir-loot in the first week of The Nighthold that was 5 ilvls higher than the standard drop in mythic. Obviously that helped us as a guild progress easier but it still feels bad that such a situation can occur. I quite like the idea of multiple levels of warforging, but there definitly needs to be a cap. 3 stages (5, 10, 15+ ilvls) of warforging would be perfect in my opinion. That way an item from a raid could never be better than the same item on a higher difficulty, it could only ever be as good. For mythic+ I would keep the system as it is now, where there's a minimum cap on how high the ilvl of gear will be depending on the level of the keystone, and also implementing the max 15 ilvl+ rule. This would solve the issues that I have with the system quite nicely, although I know a lot of people would like even stricter nerfs to the system, or even a complete removal of it.

[@hidden3232]

I feel the system does give people a reason to do lower content but I also feel one possible fix is to cap titanforging to the next levels +5 warforge. For instance a normal raid item can only roll as high as 375 which would be the warforge for heroic. So on and so forth. I feel this would help not trivialize the next levels gear but also help give you a nice little power boost. Also mythic should have a higher possible cap than 395. While it doesn't fix every issue it does help imo to some degree with ilvl inflation. Also drastically lower the chance for titanforges so that they do mean something. I come from the lower half of the player base. (Heroic guild with a few mythic kills) From my perspective a titan forge that rolls high does feel good to get but also undeserved. You are also usually stuck with that piece for a long time even if it isn't super great for your spec.

[@tiptonshadowsong2163]

I agree that titan-forging doesn’t really fufill its purpose of helping guilds get past blocks. Partially because initial tuning will assume some degree of Titan forging, which always turns any bonus blizz put in to a mandatory. But mostly because it’s to low a change. MoP I ended with a almost a full set of Titan forged gear... legion i probably had about 2-3 pieces. Valor upgrades was a more predictable and less frustrating solution to the same problem.

[@MelvinDorkus]

i like being able to overgear things - like naxx being super easy while in icc gear - but i dont like if that overgear comes from literally farming only mythic taloc for the past few weeks and then finally being able to do the next boss.

[@Dimi.Petrov]

I had similar conversation with guildies earlier today actually. The way the gear is at the moment is just not exciting and that made me stop caring about loot anyway - it is what it is, I couldn’t care less. So I totally agree with you

[@suntiger745]

Wasn't there also a discussion from Blizzard in Mists that thunder/war-forging and a few targeted nerfs to certain bosses was something they wanted to di going forward instead of putting in blanket buffs/nerfs like they had done in ICC and Dragon Soul? It would make for a more organic and satisfying kill for the guild that were stuck on X and wiping at 2-5% that they would gradually get slightly better to get that kill instead of "oh, everyone is doing 10% more damage now and we killed the boss easily. yay." I'm not sure how that has played out over Mists, Warlords and Legion, but I remember that being part of the discussion along with the reasons you mentioned.

[@Nagassh]

I'm fine with Titanforging for the most part. When you have undeniably BIS items from end bosses then it's nice to be able to get them at a decent ilvl pre-Mythic farm, Nighthold is a good example with Gul'dan dropping tier legs, BIS trinkets and BIS relics, either tanking some players ilvl vs others when the bis melee trinket drops from the first boss and the bis caster one drops from the last etc, or pushing people into suboptimal gear due to the bad luck of Blizzard shoving their good items later into the raid - 2H str weapons from Taloc but bows from Vectis being another example. Going back to bosses just dropping what they drop is fine, but that had it's own set of problems that I don't really see being fixed - sometimes certain classes are just fucked if key items come from the end, forcing you into pvp or some other avenue to compensate. If Blizzard are using warforging in place of the old Cata incremental 5% nerfs I'll also take that in a heartbeat - nothing was worse than missing a kill only to have it handed to you next reset by an arbitrary nerf. That said, tier tokens should NEVER have been a "secret" titanforge - show it on the token, and even more important warforging does NOT work without master looter - getting a 5ilvl upgrade that is untradable just feels trash when your buddy is running around with a massively inferior item. Just the scrubby opinion of a mediocre Mythic GM, but WF is something that's never bothered me besides minor envy - I wouldn't mind if it was gone, but I've no real problem with it being around - at least before personal loot made 5ilvl upgrades a problem. I'm infinitely more bothered by the removal of ML and even more so by the skeletal state of class design and the over reliance on talents to build a spec.

[@jasonkennedy4684]

Great video and well articulated points. I have a couple of thoughts to share from the casual player perspective. I don't have the time to consider Heroic/Mythic raiding or Keyed Mythic's. In fact, I am generally content with a few normal/heroic dungeons and daily quests to play with my kids. That being said, I tend to hold off queuing for dungeons until I am well over geared. Not because I don't think I could do them with less gear, but because the player base in general tends to like the rush rush play style that doesn't really need proper play but does benefit from over gearing. I would love to see a return to measured progression via gearing to make content more appropriate to the type and skill level of the player base. I wouldn't mind having an "easy" level for dungeons that can be done prior to normal or for those that just want to participate in the story (see LFR for raiding). All in all the game should provide tools that generally pair players of equal skill level with equal gear and an ascending difficulty level while still allowing for "easy" mode.

[@rickandrygel913]

It's not about what other people have, it's about what I do have and what I can get. Did my super easy content give me better gear than the baseline for high difficulty content? Then maybe I'm not really looking forward to it, maybe I'm disappointed by loot I should have been excited about because it was my first time at this new difficulty level, but easy stuff gives better rewards. Really, they should tone it down like 90% (or 100, I'm looking forward to vanilla) and have each tier only titanforge to just under the baseline of the next tier (best from normal would be 5+ ilvls lower than lowest heroic gear).

[@luniers4629]

Would it help if dungeons and raids scaled to the average ilvl of players?

[@Jonsse]

Lovely summary. Everything you've said here, I see as the issue as well. Important for everyone to hear. I wish the people that matter would hear it, and realize their mistake. But I don't think that's their goal anymore. I think what Blizzard is trying to do is create a NFL/Madden/Fifa type annual game release system where they just release the exact same game year after year with a different skin pulled over it. I fear that BFA's similarity to Legion is intended.

[@Eventzz0]

I was very young but still a beast during Cata and I personally loved the difficulty of heroics. I can still remember party members leaving during Grim Batol runs because of the wipes but when you fight through and complete them, it was much more satisfying. Especially how back then we still had justice points vendors and valor and whatnot. We also weren't pressured from a timer and didn't care because the difficulty and enjoyment was enough. Blizzard stop catering to the noobs geez.

[@thelegzor]

The wrath badge system is a good middle ground in my opinion. I remember complaining at the time that non raiding players could get the same gear as people that was raiding, mainly tier gear. But compared to now, I would prefer that system. High geared players still needed to do some dungeons for weekly quest, and at the same time low gearet players felt some form for progression gear wise.

[@positivepatrolleader4914]

Must by very hard to balance gear when it can increase so much in values and has similar effects over a wide set of content. LFR plzz get away, and Titan/warforge too. Bring back my uncomftorabillity in reaching for it, but the satisfaction of actually getting it.

[@AvatarOfArabs]

oh boy... that ending there made me think that blizzard will add bad luck protection to WF/TF to please those who farm high m+ for gear instead of addressing the issue you presented...

[@flak1939]

So what you're saying is they just need to add Allianceforging?

[@MInquisition]

11:15 It's almost like they figured out at the end of the VERY SAME EXPENSION, that you can make a queued version of the same content significantly easier with lower reward, so that people who didn't struggle with it don't have to deal with the game getting easier for them... We kinda got this concept in the game, in a very roundabout way, with M+ being how you can't queue for it, is harder than heroic, and rewards better. Except now with LFG, now you can queue for it. So we're literally back at square 1. Blizzard has a tendency to design solutions that incorporate literally the same problem back into the game.

[@tahroo4262]

I remember coming back to Legion, finally getting 110 and the gear to do heroics... my first run on my resto druid was with a Monk "tank". He was a mythic ToS geared WW monk who just ran through the whole dungeon as fast as he pleased and left all of us behind. It wasn't a very fun experience and helped me learn jack all about how to actually do the dungeon.. was just pointlessly trying to keep up.

[@finnersz]

Ground has been covered right?

[@Asin24]

The worst part of titanforging, rolling sockets, ect for me is the feeling of not ever being able to achieve BiS. Part of what I enjoyed was having a goal to work towards gear wise where I 'complete' my character for a tier. With all these extra random chance effects on gear it makes me feel like I have no reason to raid beyond just beating the content. Once I get the set pieces I want I find it hard to really feel any desire to raid and gear up. Combine it with the fact theres 4 difficulties for the same raid it makes my interest last a lot shorter. Its crazy thinking I use to spam karazhan for 6 months straight and be perfectly content and now after a month of one raid I'm already done with it.

[@tremonray2483]

I think MoP had the sweet spot for the system, more specifically when we had both Warforging AND Valor upgrades. Valor Upgrades then served the same purpose of nerfing the content as they want/wanted TF to do, without the rather unnecessary randomness and ~8 different variations of the same item; not including sockets and tertiary for those variations. TF also seems to have given people less incentive to run higher difficulties, or at least what I've seen happen in Legion. Rather than doing Heroic/Mythic, people were content with putting in less time and effort running LFR and Normal for a chance at receiving items better than Heroic/Mythic when those items did Titanforge; even when they did have the time to raid or people to raid with. Ideally they would use the scrapper idea Asmongold (as well as the others in the Beta) had mentioned, with being able to upgrade items via scrapped raid gear, along with the requests to cap TF - to still provide a way to steadily nerf content, with having that dopamine of "I got lucky" since it still exists (just not ridiculous as before), while giving the people want they want (more agency, less rng).

[@RuneFToftlund]

Personally, I'd like to see TF to have a cap at 15ilvl of the base ilvl, so you cant go into a heroic dungeon which drops 325 and it can proc 395 ilvl. That's just disgusting.

[@absolutcookie9787]

Rune Toftlund did u mean 350?

[@Outplayedqt]

what heroic dungeon ever drops a titanforged 395??? Wtf lmao

[@luisibarra7656]

i don't know about a hc dung to 395, but i DID see a mythic 3 going to 395 which is the same, and it was like a bis trinket for agi users

[@bartoszbartosiewicz1123]

Imo they should cap TF at something around 10 or 15 ilvl and give people way to counter it by playing the game, something like bringing back currency similar to justice or whatever that lets you forge your items to the cap. This way you can get the moment of lucky "wohoo this op item dropped" but at the same time if you are unlucky you can still get the highest quality loot. Also, bring back master loot.

[@robertrozanski1206]

With a guildie rocking a 385 ring from a +2, I wouldn't be -that- surprised about a 395 gear from heroic. It's extremely unlikely and beyond, but still possible.

[@retiretosomething9868]

Blizz also has to tune raids towards groups that have farmed the crap out of titanforged items.

[@silentstormptt]

@Preach Gaming, gread video, heres a simple example: Titanforging could be something you can do with professions, meaning removing it as a chance but can be done by anyone, add a efty cost on it, professions suddenly become a little more relevant. ALSO, to titanforge ur item you must first warforge it (Professions), then finally you Titanforge by spending a resource (Remember the completely useless Expulsom, Hydrocore on ur non-profession characters doing nothing cause BwP... adding a usage for those) inside the Heart of Azeroth.

[@teardowndan5364]

I'm 7/8H so far and my highest ilvl item is a 380 from LFR which I got from the first week it opened. Kind of killed LFR for me since the chance of that happening ever again are slim to none. I don't remember getting anything over a +20 through all of Legion and that seems like a more sensible limit for how much of an RNG bonus people might get from farm content.

I think many points you bring are valid, but I also think that some of the reasons for having titanforging also make sense... So I would probably keep it, but reduce the amount of max upgrade to something like next tier, e.g. 355 to max 370+S or even below next tier, so 365+S, extreme titanforges don't have any pros in my opinion... or maybe change it to some upgrade form, similar to WOD, when you could upgrade item a bit for currency, so even without loot, you got something, but we would need to limit it somehow so people don't farm low dungeons to upgrade raid gear etc, but only allow to upgrade gear by doing appropriate level content

[@harrisonpayne1179]

There was a forum post saying... "Imagine going to McDonalds to get a 4 piece McNuggets, you pay, get your nuggets and your happy and all that then some idiot comes and also gets 4 piece McNuggets but it McForges into a 12 piece McNuggets with a soda and some fries and you're standing there like a !@#$ing idiot with your dumb 4 piece McNuggets while he/she has more than you for some weird reason even tho you both payed the same price but you are less rewarded because..." Sums it up perfectly.

[@Toast01]

Phases and timing of boss mechanics and CDs fluctuates change immensely depending on how overgeared the group is including any death mechanics that get ignored due to everyone tunnelling the boss. The end result is a large amount of raid time wasted. Classic example of the above is Elagon platform or Tortos breath.

[@alessandroaldobrandi1704]

Titanforging = short term pleasure Purchasing high end gear with points/emblems = long term pleasure

[@nickb1337]

to be honest my only issue is the rate we progress iLvls. The iLlvl jumps need to squish...

[@PtemKowITh]

Maybe there should be restriction with how many titanforged items you wear? Just like legendaries, 1 or 2 titanforged items equipped, while the titanforge upgrade would be only one difficulty higher at best. In that situation, there is some help to overcome difficult boss and it is still good reason to farm, for example for mythic raider heroic raids instead of going for LFR or normal.

[@alewis514]

My biggest complaint is for Crafting in BFA. The sole fact that BOP 340ish epic crafts need reagents that ONLY drop in MYTHIC dungeons is just beyond dumb. That's next level of dumb. The whole profession system falls apart with this. The craftable gear piece is obsolete the moment you are able to craft it. In earlier expacs you could craft actually strong gear such as Mooncloth set in BC. This gear could unlock content for you. Not like now, where the content unlocks the crafted gear (which is already worse than what you propably have)

[@Outplayedqt]

yep especially when you factor in the welfare system in 20 minute warfronts lol

[@ispear6337]

The point of this crafted gear is as a bad luck protection mechanic, you use reagants you get from relevant content to craft relevant gear. The major flaw with crafting is that you only have 2 options as to what to craft, so if you got unlucky but just happened to get those same 2 pieces as one of the few pieces you got then youre still fucked. The best way to describe the new crafting is justice/valor lite.

[@ispear6337]

@@Deesar_ yeah i dont think anyone here was talking about anything other than BS LW and tailoring.

I actually had use of the crafted gear for once. Still got 2 385 pieces equipped.

[@starfreek101]

I kinda miss how a very long time ago different professions would have 1-3 items that took a long time to make and were bind on pickup, but were good for most of the xpac. Making the BS weapons in BC and working to upgrade them felt amazing.

[@Eladonir1]

As a casual person, who have absolutely no interest in organized group content, and don't at all have a sense of competitiveness to gearing, titanforging is fucking amazing. There comes a time, where i can't improve my item level any more with my style of play, and titanforging gives me the reason to at least go out, and do that WQ for that 330+ item, and hope it can go above my 345 that i'm currently wearing. I'm not going to be wiping you lot in your mythic+'s, or even bother you in your normal and above raids. The 370 boots that i got from a lucky emissary titanforge will not devalue what gear you are getting. In fact, i could probably get an item to that slot, just by being patient and wait for a warfront to roll around, and get an item through the chest. The only reason i'm still interested in getting stronger gear, is because it's gonna speed up the way in which i complete other forms of content. I recognize that to some people the system might suck donkey dick, but be considerate of those to whom titanforging is essentially the life blood of this game. You can easily distinguish a casual, from the hardcore. Just look at their gear. Even if they are at the same itemlevel, you can see where they got their items from. Can you really not tell that if i'm wearing gear from warfronts, and got lucky titanforges from LFR and WQ's, world bosses, that i'm going to perform worse than the guy who is equipped with gear from raids, mythic+ and etc? Not only that, but we casual people, are gonna be waaaaaaaaay behind you lot in terms of gear. Waaaay behind. We don't even get full access to LFR only a month later the actual raid released. I have done a lot of stuff in this expansion, guess how many titanforged items i have? I have one. A 370 boots that titanforged from a 340 emissary quest from the proudmoore's. One item. Everything else i have gotten, i have a better one from other sources. This idea, that i, as an LFR hero, can ever compete with an actual mythic raider, and somehow devalue their hard work, is just laughable. You guys get higher item level stuff, and much more better looking sets. Access to mounts that i can only ever hope to farm, once the raids become soloable, or buy my way to them if someone decides to sell it, and in this expansion, i don't hope to make millions to do that. I don't want titanforging gone, as it is very important to me as a casual player, and if it causes problems to the lot of you, maybe they should cut down on it, or make mythic gear even more powerful, and heroic not be able to reach to those levels through just a warforge.

[@Stalkingwolf]

Most fun i ever had in WoW was 10man hc progress raiding in cata. Realm first Alakir, Sinestra, Nefarian, Ragnaros was so much fun. yes some bosses were op or completly unbeatable, but it was fun. yes we had a almost perfect setup ( only one Melee of course DK ), but you could play it mostly with every setup.

[@sinjmckenzie6170]

I commented this on Zack's state of BfA vid, but i'll say the same thing here. Last week I got a mythic ring from Mother. It had good stats and it was 385 so I was happy. Then, 3 days later, on our optional HC clear, my mate got a 395 tf ring, and someone else got a 390 tf ring. I'm happy that they got good loot, but the fact you can get significantly better gear from HC than M makes takes away a lot of my personal motivation to progress mythic.

[@zeakonz70]

With all these things and BfA in general, u see how much more and more blizz is not getting the good vs the bad on their own game, wow… Im getting more and more excited about playing Classic tho, since i started my wow journey LATE vanilla/start tbc so didnt rly experience vanilla at max lvl :P And so far im looking forward to it !

[@ThatRealGamerGuy]

Blizzard implemented warforging as a means that would make us play and raid longer. To be honest I hate it ever since it got implemented into the game. Honestly back in the day it felt good to get that bis piece of gear from a boss and just knowing that you were done with that slot for that raid tier. Now a days you’re never done, back in the day I still raided even if I had bis gear for all slots or I just did the same with my second character. Personally warforging isn’t doing anything good for the game and its for sure not making me raid or play the game longer its actualy doing the opposite.

[@JustMrNiko]

I think there are another way of tackling the problem. They can disable all upgrading in the first patch, in ''x.1'' Warforging appears and in ''x.2'' or ''x.3'' Titanforging appears as a catch up mechanic for the players that joins in later in the exp. or the ones that wanna reroll to something else. But they should keep the cap at say normal or even HC. lvl of gear so the best gear comes from the highest lvl of content, at the same time the lower part help you up to the point so every one have at least a shot at trying the hardest part. also no upgrades from WQs. that would be ridiculous, WQs. should be there on there for when you have just hit max lvl.

[@undeadamerican1107]

One pro that you didn't mention that is really important - titanforging allows guilds to clear content with casual members. 10 hardcore solid players can carry a 20-30 man raid when they have enough gear. Socially this is great for the vast majority of guilds that want to bring casual, social, fnf players but still want to make progress. I agree with all your Cons though.

[@benwhittle9001]

One of the most important things I've ever heard.

[@palasmash]

Maybe I'm the odd one out but I feel like the i frequency on titan forging helps keep it under control. At best I'll see a warforged over like 2 weeks.

[@thunderslapped]

So u saying my 390 back piece from m4 was not deserved?

[@Lindyn773]

Ever since i started raiding in SoO I have been of the group that believes it shouldn't be in the game and have become even stronger in that believe when they added titanforging and RNGem Slots. It is mainly for the reason of I don't want to feel completely cheated when I get the base version of a mythic piece of gear and can't use it because the socked 375 version I got from heroic is so much better, or the fact that so many World Quest trinkets completely overshadow raid trinkets. Personally the only gripe I have with other people getting good titanforges is when they receive it from WQ's and LFR (coming from someone who originally started and found love in raiding through LFR) or when someone gets the exact piece i get but vastly better. I am glad that they got rid of Tier for a single reason in that they could titanforge and you couldn't tell till you use the token (was it really too hard to just put the rng additions on the token itself?).

[@reeven1721]

"There is a chance that you will get a significantly larger upgrade than what you deserve, and this will enable you to be more powerful going forward to do other challenges." So what you're saying, is that my character's power and ability to progress up the game's difficulty curve gets decoupled from me getting better at the game, and rather gets tied to how lucky I am with RNGsus. Yay!