The Bombing of Berlin in World War II (The Ugly Truth)

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This is the story of the bombing of Berlin during World War II - by both the Royal Air Force Bomber Command and the United States Army Air Force. Here, we analyze why the capital city of the Reich had to be bombed, and the true cost. This was made using the World War II flight simulator War Thunder - Download free here: playwt.link/tj... Hope you enjoy! Please like, comment, and subscribe. #WW2 #WWIIHistory #WarThunder
RESEARCH SOURCES: Research sources in all of my content include the United States National Archives (NARA) - and specifically, Missing Air Crew Reports, as well as combat reports and diaries from various fighter and bomber squadrons. catalog.archiv...
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[@TJ3]

Join my project - Letters From War: TJ3History.shop/products/LFW - Next month's package will include a letter to Lt. Jake Simonitsch just a few months after he was shot down on the March 8th raid to Berlin. All proceeds go to interviewing veterans and retelling their stories.

[@steveshoemaker6347]

Thank you Trent for another fine TJ3 History video about WWII air power..... Old F-4 pilot Shoe🇺🇸

[@TJ3]

@@steveshoemaker6347 thanks for watching Shoe! Hope you're well.

[@observer6294]

Bombing citys, is a war crime. It was one of the many warcrimes alied did. Still no convictions. Churchill was a war criminal, as was those too, that followed His criminal orders.

[@scottessery100]

The RAF Bomber Command suffered 55,573 aircrew killed in action, which was 44.4% death rate out of the total 125,000 aircrew with 8,325 aircraft were lost in action.

[@TJ3]

I'd like to eventually do a video on them. The losses that bomber command suffered are staggering, and it is especially tragic when you consider how poorly they were looked upon after the war.

[@jimtom4878]

Damn

[@robertpullen3726]

The actual total of all types of british bombers lost in combat in europe was 11,965 bombers out of a total 42,010 aircraft lost in action.

[@paul7TM]

​@@TJ3Please do. A good research would be the book Bomber Boys by Patrick Bishop. Imagine an RAF pilot or navigator could spend up to two years training often to be killed within weeks of operations. Where a young flight sergeant pilot from a working class background was the skipper over officer crew from middle and upper class backgrounds. Crew from all around the empire and commonwealth. Fascinating largely untold to the rest of the world history. Let's hope for peace in their names.

[@heavyrightfoot7947]

My heart bleeds. ....

[@Xeno1001]

At time stamps <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="55">0:55</a>, <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="476">7:56</a>, <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="635">10:35</a>, <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="674">11:14</a>, and <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="870">14:30</a>, that is me in the Bf 109 with the yellow markings. This is the first TJ3 video I have participated in, and it was an absolute honor and pleasure being able to represent history and participate in this amazing team. Can’t wait to fly in the future, and once again TJ3, great work as always.

[@TJ3]

@@Xeno1001 woooo! Thanks a ton :)

[@TappRackBang]

@@TJ3how do I get to fly for your videos, that sounds awesome 😂

[@mgweible8162]

Honey, wake up, TJ posted another video! I appreciate the hard work you put in all your videos tj, stay awesome!

[@TJ3]

Thank for your continued support :)

[@SyntheticGoddessYT]

I'm up I'm up

[@almartin4]

That sounds very similar to our family history: My father, John Allan Martin, enlisted in the Army Air Corps (1942), age 18, and served as a gunner and radio operator on B-17s and B-24s. He was assigned to the 8th Air Force in England and flew 35 combat missions over Europe. Including one shown as "SECRET" on his papers. According to him, later while watching “12 O’clock High” on TV, he thought that it was very well done and he liked the show. He did say that instead of the large letter “A” in the show their planes carried a large letter “P” there. He was in the 387th Bombardment Squadron of 487th Bombardment Group. The records for many crew members were lost during a fire at Fort Benjamin Harrison. His brother, age 20, was a Navy aviator flying in the Pacific area: his plane was shot down . The bad news was wired to the family, who were surprised three months later when he walked in the front door in his Navy uniform. My father had left the service at the end of the war and worked as a TV/Radio engineer. He was called back to duty for the Korean conflict but didn’t have to deploy; and stayed with the new US Air Force. He retired in 1968 after 26 years of active duty and died in 1976. His brother also passed in 2005. Both brothers are buried at Arlington National Cemetery. Regards

[@jon9021]

Really interesting, thank you!

[@Ackdaddy100]

My grandmothers brother named Sidney Kelly was Australian Airforce he was KIA in one of the first Berlin raids in a Lancaster he was 19 and a tail gunner . Only one of the crew survived an Englishman and he was taken in by a local family and treated well until taken to a POW camp he was treated well by the Germans he said that he was always treated well by the Germans he wrote to our family every year until he passed away. Sidney still has a sister who is alive at 98 and she still feels the pain of what the family went through when the letter came that he was not coming home.

[@skyden24195]

"...in the horror of a bloody World War, the likes of which one hopes no human will ever again have to witness." -Hear, hear & amen.

[@michaelbatson1879]

I own a book which I would recommend as suggested reading entitled "Target Berlin: Mission 2<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="3006">50:6</a> March 1944" by Jeffery L. Ethell and Alfred Price. I also own and recommended 2 books by Martin Middlebrook dealing with RAF Battle of Berlin entitled: The Berlin Raids RAF Bomber Command winter 1943-1944" and "The Nuremberg Raid: 30-31 March 1944."

[@thethirdman225]

James Holland's book, _'Big Week'_ is also worth a look.

[@ramonzzzz]

I know of no writer of military material who covers his topic more thoroughly than Martin Middlebrook did. He unfortunately died in January of this year.

[@thethirdman225]

@@ramonzzzz Nobody has written a better book on the Schweinfurt-Regensburg raid. He followed it up with a similar book on the RAF raid on Peenemuende that night. What nobody here would likely know - unless they know Middlebrook’s books - is that the RAF suffered more than twice the number of casualties as the USAAF in those 24 hours.

[@gibson617ajg]

'Wrong Place, Wrong Time' by George Kuhl is a brilliant, very detailed account of the 305th BG's mission to Schweinfurt on October 14 1943. It was decimated. He was a pilot in the 364th Squadron of the 305th. A very good pilot indeed.

[@thethirdman225]

@@gibson617ajg Thanks for that.

[@exharkhun5605]

Harris sounds like a guy who writes poetry under a pseudonym.

[@jimaanders7527]

It's hard to believe that morale cannot be completely shattered by bombing. Even after the vicious fire bombing of Japan, the Japanese didn't want to surrender.

[@DFWRailVideos]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1050">17:30</a> Looks like someone messed up their bomb drops! Great video TJ, you're always making high quality videos that go in depth on things I didn't know much about, and I love it.

[@rodneyadamson8270]

My great uncle was 94BG, 332 Squadron and survived a large number of missions as a B17 Navigator only to go missing with two other B17 and 15 men altogether over the North Sea 5-31-45 😢

[@khangnguyen7280]

I have in my collection the GRS Tag of SSgt. Raymond C. Fiebiger of the 754th BS, 458th BG and a letter written to 1LT. Edward Handorf of the 351st BS, 100th BG. Both were KIA on the 6 March 1944 mission to Berlin. It was very sobering to read about their deaths and even more so to see the tremendous number of casualties the 8th Air Force suffered in just three missions

[@OldieBugger]

...the German morale was not shaken. They should've known this even before they started the bombing campaign. What happened to the Londoners' morale during the Blitz? Well, what do they say about trying the same method again and expecting different results?

[@TheGravitywerks]

By that stage of the war German industry had dispersed into the surrounding towns and countryside due to the targeting of industrial centers earlier in the war....production was actually highest towards the end....they may have been taking that into consideration as well. Railway hubs and important transport infrastructure is found in towns/cities as well, crippling the ability to transport equipment was necessary.

[@marcusgibson3899]

Oh yes it was 'shaken' - read von Studnitz's book 'While Berlin Burns'..

[@eric-wb7gj]

British morale was 'shaken', there were riots in some cities, but the Government hushed it up. German morale too was shaken, all the soldiers returning home on leave (reading it in their books) are distressed by the devastation, especially if they lost family or friends. In books, you can see the Germans (like WW1) realising the chances of victory are slipping away, & the regime is exposed. What supported the Nazis (& continuation of the war), was the point that the German population feared Soviet retaliation & occupation more than Allied bombing, so that kept them fighting far longer than they may have. The Allies where expecting more results it's true, as they were using more, newer, heavier bombers than the Luftwaffe. While there was definitely no collapse on either side, who can actually tell how much was done? How many German (or Axis, especially Italian) soldiers surrendered rather than fight on due to it? Did the Allied bombing (among other elements) help bring about the plot to kill Hitler, which nearly succeeded, or helped Italy go out of the war?

[@timoakes450]

Resolved -cant be broken by conventional means

[@AnthonyTobyEllenor-pi4jq]

@@eric-wb7gj There was serious unrest in the east end of London during WW2 because the east end got regularly plastered so they had the King and Churchill do visits, film the visits and then boast of the Cockney spirit.

[@AgricultureTechUS]

Love the creativity and unique approach in this video!

[@andrewbranch4075]

You want to talk about courage and attrition. There's a book called "The Red Line" by John Nichol. It's about our blokes on a raid to Nuremberg. Horrific

[@mickeyclarke7914]

Yet another Quality presentation from TJ3 History

[@brentandvuk]

The target was civilians trying to break morale. You should interview the victim of allied bombings. I seen many interviews of the Londoners surviving the blitz, but few of German civilians enduring raids targeting them.

[@ae747sp5]

They just murdered the downed Allied crew but not in the West.

[@rjwintl]

my Dad and his friend Robert Thomcheney went thru flight school in TX together … Dad opted for air duty in the Pacific and flew P-40 Warhawks , his friend flew B-24’s eventually being shot down on the Ploesti , Romania bombing raid … Dad told him the already existing statistics on longevity in a bomber … Robert Thomcheney told Dad he’d accept fate as God willed !!!

[@thethirdman225]

The number of American bombers shot down in early 1944 is not directly comparable to the numbers from 1943. By April, 1944, it was clear that American losses were mounting yet the number of attacks by German fighters had greatly declined, due largely (but not entirely) to the presence of P-51s. The reason for this appears to coincide the switch to deadlier German armament. There is another channel - frankly, a slightly better channel than this - called 'WWII US Bombers', which did two videos on German 20mm and 30mm hits. 20mm was survivable - to a degree - but even a couple of hits from a MK108 was enough to destroy a B-17.

[@jacktattis]

Early 44 the P51 was not there in sufficient numbers as yet some F/Gs of the 8th Airforce were still changing over in Nov 44

[@thethirdman225]

@@jacktattis Wrong. Stay out of things you know nothing about.

[@jacktattis]

@@thethirdman225 I have the dates in my drawer . Go and check 8th A/F and then the F/Gs I did some years ago

[@thethirdman225]

@@jacktattis I already have the necessary information and have posted extensively on this. I have included figures for P-38, P-47 and P-51 Fighter Groups for ‘Big Week’. The P-51 out scored both of the others by orders of magnitude, even if the raw figures don’t appear to show it. This resulted in an emphatic win for the USAAF. It is not hard to see how or why. I’m starting to get sick of you Jack. I blocked you some years ago but somehow your posts became visible to me again when you changed your handle. But when some random guy on the internet starts trying to provoke an argument on a Saturday evening - as you did - when I’m out to dinner with friends, I have to wonder what kind of a life he has. You need to get a life Jack. I have very limited interest in validating your existence any further.

[@jacktattis]

​@@thethirdman225 1. Yes you did block me I never changed my handle I just changed the first name And you must realise I do not have to reply to you direct. 2. So you were out a dinner with friends and I disturbed you? Not much of a dinner companion I would say. 3. I have a great life it is always interesting like now. I just went over to the F/Gs of the 8th and I just had to come back 4. I said that the 8th F/Gs got their P51 in dribs and drabs and you went ballistic below is the results from WIKI and other sites 4th P51 25 Feb 44 55 P51 Jul 44 78 P51 Dec 44 339 P51 Apr 44 353 P51 Oct 44 479 P51 Between Oct and Mid Dec44 355 P51 Apr 44 356 P51 Nov44 357 P51 after Feb 44 359 P51 Apr 44 361 P51 May 44 364 P51 Between D Day and Market Garden Sep 44 All verbatim from the various sites And these are in Dribs and Drabs And my friend we are not the only ones on this site

[@boetschge]

I really apreaciate your Work and love your content. But why have you changed the Title of this Video, three times within eight Hours?

[@bryanturner683]

According to "Seven months over Europe" by Kent D Miller and "363rd Fighter Group" by Nick Marenelli., the Berlin raids did not stop for almost a year. The 363rd FG, flew escort missions to Berlin on March 9th, April 29th, May 4th, May 7th and May 8th, May24th all 1944. I suspect there more, I just quit looking. This is just the 363rd FG 951's)of the 9th airforce.

[@TJ3]

These were not actual raids to Berlin. And certainly not large scale. They were almost certainly smaller raids that had targets near Berlin as the target. March of 1944 was without a doubt, the first major USAAF operation against Berlin.

[@Aeroyaystryker-bk2fs]

I love all of your videos I’ve always been so fascinated and interested of WW2. I have one question though for your war thunder gameplay, how on earth did you get flak. I just started a movie series based on the B-17s over Europe, I’ve never been able to get flak so please if you know how please tell me. Love the vids keep up this amazing work.

[@brooksroth345]

Love this channel. In my opinion the British commited war crimes by purposely targeting civilians. As did the Americans. I don't have a problem with it war is war. Yet in Nuremburg we convicted Germans for doing the same thing. The Russians murdered 15000 polish prisoners in 1939.

[@TJ3]

History is written by the victors.

[@williamtell5365]

The moral lines are hardly clean but morally equating the Allies' bombing campaign with various Nazi acts during the war is a big stretch.

[@aguynamedscott11]

You should get a refund from the law school that you didn’t go to. Any fortified city is a legitimate target under international law. The day the Germans built flak towers in their cities they became legitimate targets.

[@AnthonyTobyEllenor-pi4jq]

Strange is it not, the UK declared war on Germany for invading Poland from the West yet ignored the fact that the Soviets invaded Poland from the East and then started rounding up the Polish Intelligentsia and murdering them, (see Katyn forest massacre 25,000 Polish bodies in one mass grave). Even the Germans did not do that ! So the Soviets became our friends and we supplied them with materials and equipment to beat the Germans, but we turned a blind eye to Stalin moving entire races of people in the USSR to places like Siberia where they usually froze to death. A lot of fuss is made about the Germans exterminating around four and a half million Jews, yet a deafening silence about Stalin having upwards of fifty Million citizens of the USSR done to death, many millions of those being Christians.

[@kieranororke620]

​@@AnthonyTobyEllenor-pi4jqExactly what 'defeaning silence' are you referring to? The one on a documentary about the bombing campaign over Nazi Germany? What do you expect people to refer to when discussing the Nazis? If you wish to see references to Soviet atrocities then try watching a documentary about them instead, or refer to the tomes of written material on the subject: no 'histories' are silent on Stalin's mass murder. Oh, and nice try with your down playing the scale of the Holocaust. Yeah, sure it wasn't about six million. In fact the Nazis murdered about 11 million European civilians, of whom about six million were of ethnic Jewish origin. If you wish to disguise your Nazi sympathies you will have to do better than that.

[@joshmassey7566]

My son and I love your videos. Would you ever be interested in doing a video on the PB4Y? My Grandfather was a tail gunner on one but I can’t find a lot about them.

[@AlanRoehrich9651]

The War Production Board had Lockheed building B-17 bombers at the Burbank P-38 plant, instead of building twice as many P-38 fighters, which could eacort and protect the bombers. It also prevented massive improvements in the P-38 that could have been introduced in July/August of 1943, i stead of February 1944, or in some cases, never. Incompetence, arrogance, and corruption multiplied U.S. casualties over Europe exponentially.

[@HornetCinematics]

Yeeee

[@TJ3]

Yeeee

[@CineSparky]

Yeeeeeee

[@raymondgrose9118]

Great video

[@OfficerBullerman]

TJ, do you have any photos of the Minnie-so-Tan nose art?

[@TJ3]

@@OfficerBullerman unable to locate any unfortunately!

[@noobygamerproductionsedits]

I donated to your kickstarter & would love to fly with you in WarThunder. I have all the b17 models E/F, E, and G and high their props for U.S and germany :) I'm 13 and love war thunder lol :D

[@marcusgibson3899]

Oh for heaven's sake - the USAAF 8th air force was NOT available for raids on Berlin alongside RAF Bomber Command - error at 4 mins.

[@jacktattis]

Yes we flew at night No B17 went at night.

[@milsurprifleguy7091]

In a different theatre , my wife’s uncle was in the Army Air Force . He was in from 1943 till December of 1945 . He was a photographer and based out of Guam . I have aerial photos of target acquisition , bombing & damage assessment of Japan . Plus ground photos after their surrender . A bigger plus is , I have a aerial photo of the USS Missouri in Tokyo harbor & the deck with US officers & the signing desk , alas none showing the Japanese officials signing the surrender papers t

[@taboovsknowledge1603]

That last statement? It's about to happen again!

[@Cdearle]

As is pointed out below, ‘Sir Harris’ is never the correct way to refer to someone possessing a knighthood. In this case, it should be Sir Arthur, or more formally Sir Arthur Harris. Maybe an American thinks Sir Arthur is ‘too familiar’. It isn’t, it is the correct way to say it!

[@ramonzzzz]

According to one source, the Luftwaffe losses on the three American raids featured here were: March 4 20 aircraft, 8 KIA and 5 WIA March 6 75 aircraft, 37 KIA and 32 WIA March 8 48 aircraft, 22 KIA and 13 WIA Total 143 aircraft, 67 KIA and 50 WIA The human casualties include crewmen in twin-engined aircraft (including night fighters) which the Germans stupidly put into the same airspace as that occupied by American escort fighters.

[@EthanCharlton-rz9lf]

great video TJ can you do more videos based on specific b17's and there crew thx

[@charleshooper1465]

you would think that the army air corps would have learned from the German bombing of England that resistance increases instead of decreases as the bombing went on. he phrase "pinpoint " was a JOKE. a 1/2 mile away from the target was considered GOOD!? one pilot tried to tell what bombing was like when he said that to get an understanding on how hard it was to hit the target was like" riding on the handle bars of a bicycle going fast down a bumpy road and trying to drop rice grains into a cup as you went by." my dad wanted to go into the army air corps in 1943, his mother wouldn't sign the papers because he was only 17. he went ahead and joined the coast guard and brought the 101st airborne back from Europe as well as bring back American troops who were pow's in German camps .until the day he died, he always believed his mother had save his life. based on per capita comparisons, the air corps was the deadliest branch of the military in ww2

[@AnthonyTobyEllenor-pi4jq]

I used to visit a Steelworks in Dortmund for my work, it was named," Herman Goering Werke", older Germans told me that during WW2 not a single bomb fell on the Steelworks but most of the surrounding houses were damaged. So much for pinpoint bombing !!

[@dezmondw7927]

Did you start with Oregon TJ? How many west coast states did you collect veterans stories from?

[@TJ3]

Two in Washington, then one in Oregon! Headed back to Texas and Arizona next week.

[@dezmondw7927]

@TJ3 Tj. I was born in Temple, TX, my good sir 🙌🏿 Did you manage to enjoy any of our coastline out here on downtime? Epic adventures

[@TJ3]

@@dezmondw7927 unfortunately downtime is very rare for us!! Haha

[@hughlewis4379]

Surely the raids crossed the North Sea not the channel.

[@williamlouie569]

Question, did the bombing of cities worth the losing so many planes and fighters?

[@thethirdman225]

"Sir Harris"... bloody hell. It's either Sir Arthur Harris or, less formally, Sir Arthur or just Harris.

[@samuelgordino]

Bomber Harris?

[@thethirdman225]

@@samuelgordino Yeah.

[@scottessery100]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="528">8:48</a> look at all those chem trails 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂

[@Ted-Stryker]

You must have drank a lot of fluoride as a kid, while living under power lines. Your over use of the laugh icon is ironic because you're not even aware of your own ignorance, like most people these days. You really think people don't know the difference between vapor trails and chem trails. Whats funny is you think chem trails are vapor trails. Those bomber vapor trails didn't spread out and stay all day long, genius.

[@frank-rk5sq]

This has little to say about the development and deployment of the fighter escorts and their role in protecting the bombers--or how many fighters were lost vis-a-vis the German interceptors. Very amateurish--needs re-working!

[@raymondyee2008]

Sure was one hell of a gamble for the 8th.

[@guyh.4553]

It was not until Bomber Command started to put up the "Little Birds" that missions started to work and the Luftwaffe was finally getting major hurt. The P-47s, as you showed were not as effective as the P-51s. Also, you did not show the underbelly tanks on the 47s as they were mandatory for escort duty to Berlin. If I remember correctly, the US stopped flights to Berlin until they got fighter escorts. Get all the information correctly and chronologically correct please.

[@TJ3]

I assure you my information is correct. These March raids did indeed have escorts of both P47, and P51 - as I have interviewed men who flew them during these very missions. My flight simulator used to remake the visuals does not feature drop tanks, so I have to show them as I am able to - but they would have dropped them by the time shown in combat anyways.

[@thethirdman225]

The P-47 did not go to Berlin until early 1945. On this raid some specially converted P-47s (D-9) flew escorts almost as far as Magdeburg but that was as far as they could go. The vast majority couldn't go past the Dutch border. Without the P-51, the USAAF could not prosecute Operation POINTBLANK.

[@TJ3]

@thethirdman225 Correct. They did fly escorts on these missions, and did engage the enemy, but obviously did not make it all the way to Berlin.

[@thethirdman225]

@@TJ3 As I said a small number of the P-47s got almost as far as Magdeburg. The rest, even with a 108 US gallon drop tank, could not get past the Dutch border.

[@guyh.4553]

@@thethirdman225 exactly

[@michealmackintosh4502]

Sorry but this is a highly convoluted account of the Berlin attacks. The post operational reports all clearly state that the payload for each mission was small and in fact getting smaller. The Luftwaffe in fact used these easy targets to get younger pilots experience which they would require. There are accounts of many US crews bottling out of such missions and returning to base with various excuses(cant say I blame them I would of done exactly the same). Plus of course it was such an unfeasible concept that it could never have achieved anything near it's supposed objectives. Finally-yes there is a case that if the resources had of been vandalised elsewhere this MAY have ensured an earlier Allied victory and an end to the European war. Doolittle was fully as a commander.I truly wouldnt have him commanding a line of ducks to the local pond. Was it a war crime to purposefully attack civilian targets.Certainly now it would be but such a misadventure must never be allowed to flourish again. Remember-winners of ears are the ones who make the fewest mistakes. God rest all who died in this hellish misadventure.

[@ToddBrooks-o5m]

Ok Mr. HINDSITE.

[@axelweinrich1166]

Why would Harris or the Americans, think for any reason !that the capital would not have heavy anti-aircraft protection along with fighters that would fight to the end!🤷🏻‍♂️

[@crankyinvestor]

revisionism thed russian army bled germany dry

[@jacktattis]

A bloke going by the name Third man has blocked me. He does not like facts

[@ronaldschultenover8137]

The Germans had jets the usa did not have jets for years

[@sotros1]

No. The US was flying Lockheed P-80 Shooting Stars out of Italy in the last weeks of the war.

[@luvr381]

Great video, subbed.

[@janlindtner305]

👍👍👍

[@NathanDudani]

Big 🅱️

[@user-kn9ys2zz3m]

The narrator’s teenage voice and clumsy script ap lack dignity,

[@stewartmillen7708]

As the Luftwaffe most likely was hiding their losses by reclassifying shot-up or shot-down fighters as "non-combat" losses, and that these "non-combat" losses ranged from 40-50 % of their total, that "over 100" fighters lost could easily approach 180-200 (yes, they did have non-combat losses, but if their non-combat loss rate was roughly akin to the USAAF, it would be about 10 %, not 40-50 %). Postwar interviews with Luftwaffe officers by the USAAF reported that the Luftwaffe only recorded a fighter as lost in Reich defense if the pilot was killed. This fact seems to have been completely forgotten today. So, in that light, maybe 143 bombers lost isn't as bad? I recall US Grant's aphorism to consider not just how badly you are getting hurt, but also consider that your opponent may well be in just as bad a shape, if not worse.

[@ramonzzzz]

"This fact seems to have been completely forgotten today." Didn't you read my response to this nonsense the last time you posted it? I again recommend that you read the works of some reputable authors if you wish to better understand the details of the air war in WW2.

[@stewartmillen7708]

@@ramonzzzz Because "reputable historians" have been wrong too, that's why. Let me give you an example from the Eastern Front. Photos of three Hs-129 bombers, and Luftwaffe records report them as damaged in combat, thusly: #141279: 10 % damage #141263 : 35 % damage #140514: 40 % damage. But given the skills of German mechanics, these planes are repairable, right? But there's one little catch. There are soldiers standing near these wrecks in these photos....soldiers in RED ARMY uniforms. You see, these German planes recorded as "merely damaged' by Luftwaffe record-keeping ACTUALLY CRASH LANDED IN SOVIET TERRITORY. But hey, we always should accept without question Luftwaffe records, right? Even when they don't add up or make sense, right? Some of us see the job of a good historian to question all sources, and is to come up with the most sensible and most likely narrative. The reported Luftwaffe loss records are nothing more than numbers on paper, they are not the reality itself, and if these numbers "don't add up" or fit in with other pieces of evidence (and they don't) they should be at least questioned and possibly dismissed as reliable evidence.

[@ramonzzzz]

@@stewartmillen7708 The Hs-129s incident: If you have information about the damage reports for these aircraft, and also photos of Soviet soldiers in their presence, you must also have information of the fates of the crewmen, which would be helpful in establishing the validity of your claim. Did they become PoW? Were they recorded as MIA by their unit? Were there no casualty reports at all? If you have none of these, you have no conclusive proof as to what actually took place. It could well be that the aircraft came down in German-held territory where their damage was then assessed. It could also easily follow that the Soviets took control of that territory before the Germans had the opportunity to recover those aircraft. Hs-129s, after all, were most frequently used as anti-tank aircraft, and they would most probably have been engaged in countering a Soviet attack. Even if everything happened as you believe it did, it's just one incident, and you can therefore not justifiably claim it to be proof of a Luftwaffe policy to falsify loss statistics. Your claim that the Luftwaffe recorded 40% to 50% of its losses as non-combat is something I've never seen written anywhere else, and I've read an enormous amount of material on the topic of aerial combat. I have no hesitation in dismissing it as completely worthless. Let me provide an example to support my statement. Here are the statistics from one of the raids mentioned in this video, that of March 6th. On that occasion, the defenders lost 47 single-engine fighters (and over 20 twin-engine fighters) destroyed or damaged beyond repair, 15 damaged, 18 pilots KIA and 15 wounded. Of those 47, ONE, a Bf-109, was recorded as having been destroyed in a takeoff accident, with the pilot being killed. The only other incident that may have been recorded as being non-combat was the damaging of a Bf-109 in a strafing attack. If you believe that this is an isolated sample, and that more typically the Luftwaffe did as you claim it did, go ahead and prove it. You seem not to have read my post in our previous discussion that disproved your claim that the Luftwaffe in action against US bomber attacks recorded only those losses that involved the death of the pilot. I suggest you go back to that video and read it. If you do nothing else in response to this post, please explain how the Germans would have benefitted from falsifying their loss reports.

[@stewartmillen7708]

@@ramonzzzz The key here is the claim that the aircraft were only damaged (and the photos seem to show far more than 10, 35, or 40 % damage to boot). I can ask the person who posted the photos. They were recorded as "hit by AA fire" but the article doesn't mention the crews. But the thing is, they shouldn't have been recorded as damaged at all, but total write-offs. The fact that Luftwaffe recorded 40-50 % of its losses as "non-combat" comes from Dr. Williamson Murray's "Strategy for Defeat: the Luftwaffe 1933-1945", p. 183. "The disastrous rate of attrition was a reflection both of combat losses and numerous aircraft losses through noncombat causes . In fact, the Lufwaffe seems to have almost been in a race with its opponents to see who could destroy the most German aircraft . After a fairly respectable showing in 1940, from 1941 through 1944 the Lufwaffe lost between 40 percent and 45 percent of its total losses through noncombat causes . The surprising element in such an accident rate is the fact that until the spring of 1944, few in the general staff seem to have been particularly worried about the implication of such a level of noncombat losses . At that point, however a number of authorities awoke and began to examine the problem in detail . ' Murray seems to just meekly accepted the German documentation, instead of questioning it. For one thing, while he correctly points out that the USAAF had a high accident rate too WHEN TRAINING (back in the continental US) these were not losses of planes and personnel that had been attached to combat units (and most of these involved trainer aircraft, not combat aircraft), while the German supposed "accident rate" happened in combat units. The loss rate from accidents/mechanical failure/mishaps in the USAAF in combat units was about 10 %. I cannot imagine why the German figure would be 4-4.5 times higher; given the weather over England, the fact the USAAF is flying bombers in formation (ergo, a mistake by a bomber pilot can cause the loss of not only one bomber, but multiple ones) and finally, a USAAF bomber or fighter that develops a mechanical issue over occupied Europe or Germany has a LONG trip back to base, while a German pilot in the OVER GERMANY simply finds the closest air strip on which to land. The fact that no one in the Luftwaffe high command is asking in any questions is probably because (wink wink nod nod) they know the books were being cooked. My whole point is that it's impossible to reconcile the realities of air combat over Europe, the tactics the Germans chose to use, and everything else that happened in the air with German loss records. Nothing makes any sense if you accept German paperwork as true, especially the low damage rates among German fighters attacking bomber formations. Heck, the paperwork is at odds with the recollections of German pilots who fought in those battles! The most parsimonious answer is that the paperwork is being fudged. Put 80 % of the German non-combat losses into the combat loss bucket, and you still have Germans losing planes in accidents and mishaps and by mechanical failure at the same rate as the USAAF, but then the air battle results fit both the testimony and the tactics used far better. Like I said, in Korea the USAF fudged F-86 and B-29 losses the same way (going through the data, it was amusing to see B-29s being hit by AA and MIG-15 attacks but being written off as ''non-combat' losses'). It all comes down to physical reality vs written records. In 1054, there was a supernova. It was recorded by Chinese and Arab astronomers, and it's where you currently find the Crab Nebula. At its brightest, it was visible during daylight. Yet to date no certain European records of this exist. So, because no one in Europe apparently wrote it down, did it not happen because the paperwork doesn't show that it did? Or does physical reality not trump paperwork? The problem with historians (and I have a history degree and taken historiography classes) is that they are trained to think of paper sources as evidence, and as evidence that trumps other evidence (say, eyewitness accounts). But that's not always a valid rule, as paper scribblings can be just as manipulated and falsified as any other testimony. In fact, the whole case against Alfred Dreyfus (the Dreyfus Affair) was based entirely on forged documents.

[@ramonzzzz]

@@stewartmillen7708 "My whole point is that it's impossible to reconcile the realities of air combat over Europe..." I disagree. In fact, I'll post some data which should make things much clearer for you. These are the claims and loss figures from a few 8th AF HB raids into Germany: Oct 8, 1943: 30 bombers MIA / gunners claim 167 destroyed / 22 probably destroyed / 85 damaged German fighters US fighters claim 12 destroyed / 2 probably destroyed / 4 damaged / Total US claims 179-24-87 German losses: 33 aircraft / 24 KIA / 14 WIA Oct 9, 1943: 28 bombers MIA / gunners claim 122-29-61 / no fighter escort German losses: 15 / 6 KIA / 15 WIA Oct 10, 1943: 30 bombers MIA / gunners claim 183-21-36 / fighters claim 19-0-0 / Total US claims 202-21-36 German losses: 34 / 20 KIA / 13 WIA Oct 14, 1943: 60 bombers MIA / gunners claim 186-27-89 / fighters claim 13-1-5 / Total US claims 199-28-94 German losses: 51 / 29 KIA / 20 WIA Jan 11, 1944: 60 bombers MIA / gunners claim 228-60-98 / fighters claim 31-12-16 / Total US claims 259-72-114 German losses: 58 / 38 KIA / 28 WIA This was the last time that 8th AF bomber gunners claimed at least 100 destroyed in a single day. Sept 11, 1944: 39 bombers MIA / gunners claim 17-25-4 / fighters claim 115-7-23 / Total US claims 132-32-27 German losses: 111 / 56 KIA / 23 WIA Nov 2, 1944: 40 bombers MIA / gunners claim 36-35-27 / fighters claim 102-6-25 / Total US claims 138-41-52 German losses: 133 / 71 KIA / 31 WIA Nov 27, 1944: On this date, the 8th AF sent a huge number of P-51s, many of them flying in the formation typically used by heavy bombers. The Germans were fooled, and sent up their interceptors, which suffered badly, losing 80 aircraft, 37 KIA and 19 WIA. The US fighters claimed 98-4-11. In addition, 17 German fighters were recorded as damaged, which makes a total of 97 German aircraft struck by American gunfire, less a few, of course, that may have been lost to other causes. There are at least two significant conclusions one should be able to come to after reading this. What are they? You mentioned that the number of German aircraft damaged is surprisingly low. This is probably due to the fact that slightly damaged aircraft (a few bullet holes that struck nothing vital) would not be reported to higher headquarters. I've asked three times for an answer to this question: What could the Germans possibly gain by falsifying their records? Without a plausible answer, I don't see how you can claim that your position in this debate has any validity, although I do appreciate the effort you've put into it (the debate).

[@secularsunshine9036]

*Join the Enlightenment, support Secular Humanism.* thanks

[@chadrowe8452]

Rubbish

[@jaydeister9305]

AC⚡DC - Hells Bells (Remastered), HQ kzbin.info/www/bejne/oF7Nc3qAYpqLnrM

[@scottmorgan4557]

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[@thethirdman225]

There are much better sources than _'Masters of the Air'._ Read _'Target Berlin: Mission 250, 6 March, 1944',_ by Jeffrey Ethell and Dr Alfred Price. Also read Martin Middlebrook's _'The Schweinfurth-Regensburg Mission'._ Both are vastly better than _'Masters of the Air'._