To Be or Not To Be: The Self as Illusion

[@leeds48]

My question for Thompson and Metzinger is - why are all the dreams/hallucinations about the afterlife - why not a substantial number about all kinds of sundry topics? Would you expect virtually of all those even on death row to dream they were in the afterlife the night before their lives ended? No, you would expect all kinds of dreams.

[@desertself]

Great to see these men together.

[@robotaholic]

I'm with Metzinger

[@cybervigilante]

+John Morris Actually, "you" aren't ;')

[@robotaholic]

Jim Mooney lol

[@GregTheOverlander]

I'm with the old guy

[@leeds48]

The two who are skeptical of NDEs are missing one big question - why do all of these flatliners dream of the afterlife, life reviews, relatives in heaven, kind of things - why don't they dream/hallucinate they're playing ping pong in Beijing, surfing in Miami, getting it on with a hot chick in Reno, mowing their backyard, etc. Always the afterlife? Many people go into flatline with no warning of immanent death. Even for those with awareness of life/death situation, why always the afterlife?

[@MrDorbel]

Wow, three great minds and excellent questions and questioning. Thank you so much for posting.

[@iger55]

a great talk, so much informative and enhancing

[@runelord37]

That is a compelling question sir. If they could do an objective study we might find more randomness, however I think your question is on to something fundamental. Whether or not those experiences are representative of a particular theological belief is another matter entirely. It would seem to be fairly common sense that if we have a consciousness that can transition, there would be a confusion and an adjustment of perception in which our minds may take time to adjust to the new reality.

[@4pharaoh]

I see two of them not only “pushing an agenda” but struggling to disprove prove the conclusions Van Lommel arrived at through the study of true evidence and proper scientific investigation.

[@johnmiller7453]

That's what debate is all about. I think they all do "proper" investigations in their fields.

[@edzardpiltz6348]

Would have been a much more interesting discussion, if not all participants had been from the materialist camp.

[@johnmiller7453]

Metzinger and I both agree with Schopenhauer about the state we find ourselves in. Van Lommel is a great doctor IMO and I take his conclusions seriously. Very good discussion. I'd love to hear many more discussions like this. As to where humanity is heading I see very dark days ahead unlike Van Lommel.

[@runelord37]

Van Lommel gets its completely. The other guys don't have a clue.

[@iloverumi]

excellent. thank you!

[@runelord37]

Complex hallucinations? LMFAO

[@lozvieux]

because they have spent their entire life being told that's what will happen?

[@always-stay-positive5187]

Psuedo-philosphers. If you say your brain creates the feeling of you, then the brain creates the appearance of everything: stones, food, love, etc. Without the brain, you cannot perceive anything. It is a matter of language, but whatever language you use about the existence of the self should be used about the existence about everything, including stones, food and love.

[@danielwoodwardcomposer2040]

*WHOSE ILLUSION?*

[@luckyyuri]

+Daniel Woodward it was answered quite clearly. or you just want to emphasise the wondrous quality of the idea?

[@6b616e]

+Daniel Woodward Maybe there is only one consciousness in the whole universe. So we all are its illusions. But maybe there is just no observer. So the illusion is not someones, it just is. That it looks like it was someone's, is part of the illusion.

[@luckyyuri]

Fuk Yu you've made a salad from panpsychism, boltzsmann brain, zen buddhism, "no world" interpretation of quantum mechanics. but many say we shall never go beyond speculation

[@tjdreves]

+Daniel Woodward It's an illusion, not because there's no subject, but because it's not what we think it is.

[@danielwoodwardcomposer2040]

But then maybe that's an illusion?

[@TheSensey100]

57:03 :)))

[@runelord37]

Quantum theory contradicts these opinions completely. Materialists are limited by empirical data. Philosophy is the only true bridge between religion and science. The middle path is and always has been the only true answer.

[@charlie-blued]

You know everyone who I see make this claim has never had any formal education in quantum physics, neither have I, but it makes me suspicious of this claim that quantum physics has proven that idealism is true and materialism is false. Also everyone is limited by empirical data.

[@runelord37]

not a satisfactory explanation.