“To Change the Church” With Ross Douthat

Recorded February 27, 2018
What do Catholics think of Pope Francis’s changes to the Catholic Church? Ross Douthat explores that question in his new book, To Change the Church: Pope Francis and the Future of Catholicism. Douthat joins Peter Robinson on Uncommon Knowledge to discuss his new book, his thoughts and critiques of Pope Francis, and the changing conception of divorce under Pope Francis’s ambiguous teachings.
Douthat and Robinson spend a large portion of the episode discussing the Catholic teachings surrounding marriage, divorce, and communion. They examine the history of Catholicism and divorce, going back so far as to understand the lessons of the New Testament on divorce and how those lessons were radically conservative for the time. They talk about how problematic the terms “conservative” and “liberal” are when used in the context of the Church as the political leanings do not necessarily correlate with moral leanings of religion. They go on to discuss the future of the Catholic Church under Pope Francis and how the Bishops can handle all of the changes.
About the Guest
Ross Douthat is an author and New York Times Op-Ed columnist. He received his bachelor’s degree from Harvard University in 2002. He is the author of several books including, Privilege, Grand New Party, Bad Religion, and most recently, To Change the Church.
For the full transcript go to
www.hoover.org/research/chang...
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[@wellofbeersheba]

Peter Robinson is about the best interviewer on the planet.

[@ignoratioelenchi75]

If you pose a wrong question you get a wrong answer. If you try to solve a wrong problem you end up with a disastrous solution. The problem is not how to technically divorce or annul marriages or make divorced life easier, but how to bring people closer to God and give them faith that can enlighten their life and change it so that they can live their married or unmarried life much better, wiser, and uniquely Christian, being reconciled with God and people. The main issue is the issue of passing a living faith to the next generations in normal families. Since the family is under spiritual attack and is wounded or destroyed, it cannot be just fixed by canonical regulations. The family requires a continual spiritual support and healing, especially when in crisis. And this is where a true pastoral activity should be applied to.

[@luzclara3855]

Excellent comment!

[@timfronimos459]

Converts and reverts are the life blood of Christ's Church.

[@rockpaperscissors82]

Ross is perhaps the most articulate -- careful, precise, measured, clear -- conservative and Catholic voice today. It's impossible to fake such clarity, the wellspring of his effortless enunciation. By contrast, Fr. James Martin and the merry band of Francis acolytes are childish by comparison.

[@Fieldwalker264]

True instruction was in his mouth and nothing false was found on his lips. He walked with me in peace and uprightness, and turned many from sin. “For the lips of a priest ought to preserve knowledge, because he is the messenger of the Lord Almighty and people seek instruction from his mouth. But you have turned from the way and by your teaching have caused many to stumble; you have violated the covenant with Levi,” says the Lord Almighty. Malachi 2:6-8

[@diperf]

Peter Robinson. Informed and intelligent questions submitted in a patient and polite fashion. "Popular" media should take note.

[@acarouselofantics]

I am thoroughly enjoying this interview. Then again, I always enjoy Uncommon Knowledge and Peter Robinson interviewing people.

[@manaiaalalamua4765]

Beautiful Interview! Thank you for posting. Loved it!

[@johangreyling6119]

These two are not the Christians that the Catholic Church deserves, but they are the Christians that the Catholic Church needs right now... (Hard to believe that one month after this interview the Pope comes out and says: “there is no hell” - maybe next he will say: “there is no God”)

[@JRobbySh]

Well, he did let an atheist be his mouthpiece.

[@acarouselofantics]

Judy S. Really?

[@mosesking2923]

I don't like Pope Francis very much at all but those words came from a 93 year old atheist who didn't even take notes in a discussion (which by the way wasn't even an official interview). I give him some slack for this but I WILL hold him accountable for allowing communion to divorced and remarried people and Protestant Lutherans. That can't be tolerated.

[@barbarahvilivitzky430]

Just terrific thanks for putting this up.

[@gerrym91]

Mr. Douthat is describing a portion of the Church that Jesus predicted (namely weeds) that wants to turn Jesus' words of truth to ideas akin to Unitarian-Universalist principals that are nice, but not real for guidance on the narrow Way. (I'm not a convert but a cradle Catholic.)

[@JRobbySh]

About Trent: No, it did not settle the matter. For almost two decades, “dialogue” aiming at consensus was tried in preparation for a council to settle the matter. But when finally the council met, the Protestant faction did not attend, which was guaranteed by the Emperor’s failure to subdue the German princes. Trent thus represented the view of the Catholic reformers. It was Catholic reform we find in the documents of the Council. Liberal Catholicism looks back on the two decades after 1517 as a lost opportunity for a new synthesis. Douthat is spot on when he uses the term “Hegelian.” Liberal Catholic are hegelians. But German idealism always ends up accepting the likes of Hitler or Sralin.

[@FutureZek]

I finally figured out what the "Uncommon Knowledge" series reminds me of: "Firing Line" with WFB. Peter is as genial as was Buckley. He also presses home his points, as did Buckley. And Peter seems more approachable than Bill. Good job with this episode and the series!

[@brianm.9451]

Even as a Protestant, this is a wonderful interview.

[@llewodcm20]

Brian M. Same. These long form interviews with Peter are such an amazing resource

[@mashedpatoots]

This was a really fabulous interview. That final passage that Douthat read from the book was especially great. Thanks for posting!

[@tipofmytongue1024]

Wonderful interview. I'm a recent revert to the Catholic Church

[@doddeddo]

Can I ask what made you revert? thanks

[@gregorywille846]

A welcome thoughtful discussion providing context for a non catholic trying to make sense of what is going on in the church.

[@LaFedelaIglesia]

It's interesting to see how on one hand you have a rapid "liberal" movement advancing within the Church, and on the other hand you have thousands of conservative Protestants returning to the Church. It seems like something orchestrated by God is taking place before our eyes. (I'm a convert too).

[@JeffreySBurns]

I am just reading the book. Two things: first, I think that progressive Roman Catholics do think the Church needs to be responsive to the culture. However, ProgCaths also think the Church needs to leaven and change that culture. What progressives in the RCC mean by that is somewhat different than what conservatives would mean. But it is something they believe to be part of their mission. Second: I heard no mention of the fact that the Eastern Orthodox have accomodated divorce for millennia, relying upon a parallel passage to the Scripture text which Douthat cited, in which "except for grounds of adultery" qualifies the "do not put away your wife" passage. The Pauline and Petrine epistles also create exceptions. The fact that one of the "two lungs" of the Church has long permitted divorce suggests there is a basis upon which the "more pastoral" approach can build.

[@wes6156]

I really enjoyed Douthat's last book, Bad Religion. Looking forward to this one as well.

[@georgegeller1902]

Will the last true Catholic please turn off the lights when you leave?

[@dleifroom]

If the lights are out for you why are you here listening.

[@vootee1]

Great interviewer and interviewee ! Many thanks.

[@firstlast1357]

Jesus was stricter then the Pharisees, that’s news. He also did not eat pork, and celebrated Passover, year after year, after year until the last moment. That shows what a devout Jew he was.

[@CaryHawkins]

If he's the closest we have, God help us.

[@stevensonrf]

This is an excellent expose!

[@mosesking2923]

We NEED Cardinal Burke as Pope. Basically a traditional catholic who will stand up for traditional Catholic values. I'm tired of the modernism and liberalism and relativism. We need to let go of these disastrous Vatican II reforms and go back to traditionalism.

[@MairinT]

We are embracing tradition again around the world.....quietly. Traditional seminaries and ordinations are healthy. People are pleading for Latin Mass etc. nearer than 3+ hours drive away. Tomorrow my youngest grand daughter will be confirmed in our FSSP Personal Parish (thanks to our dear Cardinal Pell). I commute on a toll road 1 hour each way on Sun. morn. N.O. few times during week days locally. (Quietly keep little bits in Traditional manner !)

[@aughalough1]

Moses, That final passage that Ross read out from the book is intriguing!

[@dleifroom]

Excellent interview and well summed up.

[@HusseinDoha]

Peter Robinson rocks!!

[@akbarrauf2741]

ross douthat is a classy conservative

[@0r14n583lt]

The Catholic Church teaches a lot of "very difficult things to believe," if you don't know the history of the church. The one major challenge that the Catholic Church faces is the full and truthful dissemination of its history to the faithful and potential converts.

[@mosesking2923]

Everyone knows the imperfect history of the Church which is to be expected since all men are sinners. Nobody will deny that waiting to have sex til marriage and loving your enemy are difficult decisions. But it comes down to principles. The church has survived 2000 years and will survive another 2000.

[@aughalough1]

tim spangler, talk to me when your perfect!

[@aaron1983]

Is the crux of the church the need to keep the human species viable by protecting among all else the multiplication of the species? Or is it love of God and to follow His path, how do we judge, how can we judge? What is the core of believing in Christ? Such a complex issue, indeed a narrow path! Jesus promised something about St Peter and we all remember it.

[@chelseamadison4137]

Malachi 2:16 "For the LORD God of Israel says That He hates divorce, For it covers one's garment with violence," Says the LORD of hosts.

[@tessysingh1327]

Our problem is that we had two great theologian professor popes in JPII and BXVI and now a bumbling pastor pope who really doesn't have the authority to change Church teaching on the indissolubility of marriage but is giving a dispensation in some cases for individuals who might not have given full consent of intellect and will to adultery even if they are in an adulterous marriage to receive Holy Communion.

[@tomthx5804]

Pope Franics is incredibly stupid. He just proved it again, putting out a document where he INVENTS his own VERY WEIRD meanings for Gnosticism and Pelagianism. He is kind of nuts. I predict he will simply go crazy in a few years. They will find some sort of alien being has been gnawing away at his brain.

[@dioscoros]

Tom thx I hope that Pope Francis is a saint in his interior life. The fact of the matter is that he's not very well put together to be a leader, he's more like that teacher in high school who had an awesome personality, and made you think about things in a different way so that you'd understand him. We just need another theological Pope who can understand the regal power that the papacy brings.

[@NovitaSari-pi5mb]

@@dioscoros I am so agree with your statement "We just need anothet theological pope who can understand the REGAL POWER that the papacy brings". Precisely! I pray Pope Francis will resign soon! For God sake, it is papacy, not social justice organisation.

[@PretiumLibertatisEstVigilantia]

I will believe if you can prove it.

[@tomthx5804]

Here is what is going to happen. Opposition against Pope Francis will solidify this year. People have been waiting for him to back off his nutty ideas, and he appears unable to do so. The next synod on the Yutes will be a miserable failure, because the bishops know they are being invited there to be steamrolled and used, not consulted. They may rise and make things difficutl for Pope Francis therre. At any rate, some sort of means will be established to make it clear that Pope Francis faces solid, public opposition. There will be lots of letters by Bishops to their archdiocese saying "I tried to go along with Pope Francis, but I find that he is trying to undo Pope Saint John Paul II, and I cannot go along with that. People will understand that tack. Bishops are going to have to ignore the fake media pretense of Francis where he appears to be universally loved, because that is all fake. Bishops will informally gather and figure out some sort of resistance. They will increasingly allow or encourage oppositional meetings and speakers to appear in their churches as speakers. Pope Francis is probably the worst Pope in hundreds of years, and it is time he was opposed.

[@johnjon1823]

Essentially the problem is about objective versus subjective mortal sin and how to apply these concepts in the church today, during and after a pontificate. It is true that the teachings remain unchanged but it is also true the pope seeks to amend the practice of the teachings. The major problem is one of scandal which affects many of the faithful and their consequent reactions to the changes. Ironically most Catholics won't care only those who have made the effort to conform to the teachings and study the faith will be potentially scandalized. A council should be called immediately to establish clarity and direction, in my estimation. Additionally canon law needs to be brought up to date so as to guard against abuse of the papal office, and to address the removal of popes. Francis wants to change things, so I say let him have the full fruit of his actions. I propose new considerations for the annulment of Holy Orders and papal elections and guidelines for removal of errant popes. It is high time for these changes. As a lay person I am tired of the constant urinating on the sacrament of marriage by high and mighty clerics and it is about time to let them have a taste of their own medicine. If Francis wants a new paradigm then let it begin with his office and his "authority" - let there be a council to deal with this.

[@JRobbySh]

Councils do not settle such issues. It is instructive that the first general synod (council) happened at tribe insistence of a politician. That the secession of councils ending in Chalcedon did not settle the essential question: what does it mean to say that Jesus is the Son of God. In the year 600, Christendom was divided into sects: Arian, Monophysites, Orthodox, Nestorian and many splinter groups. This helped open the way for Islam, who themselves may have started out as a Christian heresy.

[@fight4truthnowontwitter209]

Jesus strict rhetoric was about how man can't live to those standards. It's part of the Salvation message. That's why he came to die. So those standards will not condemn you. The Catholic Church has a long history of misunderstanding Salvation & Sanctification.

[@jongricafort4]

Thanks Ross for the liberal beef you pointed out at the end of the interview that its a funny thing to realize that the hard moral teaching is just a trickters in some sort of ways. But of course the Justice of God wont allow it.The better view in Mary's Wisdom is God hard moral law was handed over to the Church to produce saints and martyrs that would would atone for the sins of the wayward so that they can be save in purgatory but the Justice of God will reward them in Heaven for embracing the hard teaching while we who live an easy life is save also by the Merciful design of God. in the end all of us will enter Heaven because of the Mercy of God.and like C.S Lewis said the door of hell is locked in the inside.So the souls that would end up in hell are the souls who deliberately reject the Mercy of God. We are living in the Time of Mercy now, and all the hard doctrines are slowly falling out in the direction of revealing the True Nature of a Merciful God. St.Faustina reveals who God is when Jesus said "I AM Love and Mercy itself". Pope Francis is pointing and awakening us perhaps not to solidly embrace the hard doctrine of orthodoxy but to open ourselves to the Truth of who God is really is.Our God is a Loving and Merciful Father who can set aside all his directives and guidelines for 2000 years and simply embrace us with our imperfections, saying my son time is up Im about to close this world that you live in but dont worry all the Saints in the Eucharistic Era for 1000 years will be doing all the sacrifices and prayers to empty purgatory anr that includes the unworthy you so that all of the precious souls will share the glory and happiness Im willing to give all of you in My Kingdom for all eternity.My Jesus mercy.

[@mosesking2923]

Everybody makes mistakes and sins. The Church and Christ is full of mercy. But ultimately, if someone is in a state of adultery they must acknowledge that they are in a state of sin. Not only that, but they must also attempt not to sin again (the act of contrition). This is impossible for the divorced and remarried. Thus they must not be allowed to receive communion. That is the only option.

[@aughalough1]

Air Em Out, don't be so naive!

[@carolusparvus]

Facing real threats like ecological disaster, nuclear war or mankind's obsolescence through technology, do you really want to spend your time on contemplating second marriages or gay marriage? I'd call that eschewing the real problems.

[@JamesPetrycia-zj7yq]

There is no Pope named Francis!

[@shosugino6716]

Why is priest abuse of kids OK because those priest made a mistake, why is marriage absolute?

[@JRobbySh]

The great majority of the abuses came not because a priest made mistake but out of homosexual lust.

[@luzclara3855]

NOBODY has EVER said that priest abuse of kids is o.k. NOBODY. EVER.

[@itsnotatoober]

This guys Episcopalian? Douthat

[@garymcaleer6112]

Bible illiterates always deny the true history. The Waldenses are the oldest institution in the West and were the true apostolic church established by Peter and Paul. Theodore Beza, whose edition of the "Received Text" became the predominant influence for the KJV, said the Waldensian church began in 120 A.D. Centuries later when Constantine united violence with the non-violent message of Christ and His Apostles, the Spirit of the LORD left the Roman church and has never returned. Their "good works" cannot hide the stench of their sins against the 2nd and 4th Commandments: the only two of the sacred laws pointing directly to Christ as Saviour, and Creator. The books of Daniel and Revelation conclusively declare the church of Rome is at war with "the word of God," as evidenced in their own writings from the dawn of her ascendency, from Victor I to Francis: "The Church is above the Bible."-The Catholic Record, Sept.1, 1923. As long as sin is evangelized, Christ warns: "But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Faith and sin are not partners in salvation.

[@notlimey]

There is a conservative model for schism : the Society of St. Pius X

[@robertwilliams4682]

Schism tends to be more destructive than beneficial whenever and wherever it occurs

[@aughalough1]

Bob, I agree.......!

[@ewallacestudent1]

Te real pope has to lay low, Jesuits will pay their game until it is safe. We all know how to live godly practice that.

[@josephmartos9526]

Mr. Douthat represents a small but well educated conservative segment of Roman Catholicism in the industrialized world. Their comprehension of Catholic history and doctrine is akin to what I was taught in the pre-Vatican II church about unchangeable truths, the clarity of doctrine, papal succession an other non-historical beliefs. He is an articulate author and a provocative speaker, but he has imbibed so much that is academically questionable that I am reminded of the axiom of formal logic, A falso sequitur quodlibet, which translates roughly into the computer programming maxim, GIGO.

[@smokybirch6626]

Could you explain what you mean by "non-historical" beliefs? How are the three ideas you mentioned (unchangeable truths, doctrinal clarity, and papal succession) non-historical or academically questionable?

[@dioscoros]

SmokyBirch He obviously doesn't know what he's talking about. Papal succession can be traced back to St. Irenaeus, among the Church Fathers. Apostolic succession can be traced to St. Ignatius of Antioch. And the fact that doctrine is unchangeable should be really obvious if you believe the Church is infallible.

[@billbogamer4389]

Generally agree with him. But he doesn't ev n bring up the mail that puts Francis in the coffin. Homosexuality. FI is promoting it.

[@michaels1416]

the question of marriage is stupid. If one gets married legally, one cannot get married again unless the first marriage is dissolved via divorce. If one does get married again after being married legally the first time, the second marriage does not exist. It is ILLEGAL to get married again while still married........ When one understands legal marriage, it is simply obvious. To ask a question shows the stupidity of the interviewer..

[@jacksonhall5725]

Any good interviewer aims not only at their own understanding but also the audience. The audience of this video contains Catholics but also Protestants and potentially non-Christians as well. The goal is to make everything clear. His clarifications are not unreasonable.

[@november8289]

The Catholic Church is not a true biblical church.

[@JRobbySh]

The problem is that it is, but the Jesuits are a sect unto themselves.

[@tipofmytongue1024]

Neither is Sola Scriptura

[@mosesking2923]

Protestants are a satanic cult that have fallen away from the One True Church. You should renounce your false church and return.

[@tomthx5804]

You are a heretic. You made up your own personal church based on heretical ideas. You are not a church in any sense of the word, you are a rebel against Jesus Christ

[@aughalough1]

Novem Ber, If not a true biblical church........well which one is, when it was founded, it's history and who started it?