Weird weapons shield darts

Weird Weapons continues and this time with something very weird indeed - 5 throwing darts built into a shield and based on pictures from a 1433 manuscript by Mariano Taccola.
As ever Matt Easton from Schola Gladiatoria has come to share his thoughts; so we talk about them, think about them and then of course use them!
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[@tods_workshop]

This may well be the cause of an apology video. I looked at the picture and saw the shading as the shield curving up at the edges so the darts were on the inside and I dismissed the lack of a grip simply down to the fact he could not resolve the details and just moved on. I would still argue that the drawing looks like the shield curves with the darts inside, but that picture is badly shaded; others may disagree. However I concur that most likely the darts were on the outside, which of course makes more sense. Tod, don't jump to conclusions! I considered Matts plumbata thought and in fact did another video on a similar subject a couple of days later (not yet released as of 8 Jan 21) and yes I am am fairly sure these were Mariano Taccola trying to reinvent/present or whatever his readings on plumbata, probably from Vegetius. But more of that line of thought is to come....

[@jorehir]

I'm not 100% convinced that Mariano was trying to reconstruct the plumbata. Even to Italians who can't speak Latin, the name "plumbata" should suggest a connection with "piombo" (=lead) and "piombata" (=leaded, with a weight), therefore to something heavy or which has a sort of ballast. Those darts don't appear to be of that kind. On this topic, i wonder how Mariano's darts compare in terms of mass with actual plumbatas. In theory, given the same mass, they should outperform plumbatas thanks to a more efficient launching system. What's going on?

[@javiderp3800]

It's 2022 Tod!

[@marcz2903]

If they are on the outside of the shield, then I suspect they wouldn't have had barbed heads on them, because the head may get caught up on the straps if you pull the up out of the loop. If you have to reach around the shield to pull the fletchings down through the loops, you expose yourself more. If they had bodkin heads, you could just grab them by the fletchings and pull them up over the top of the shield without having to expose yourself. Also, the drawing seems to show something more like bodkin heads than barbed broad heads. Just my thoughts on the matter.

[@cheyannei5983]

@@marcz2903 You expose yourself plenty to throw them, which doesn't matter as the distances don't make sense; by the time you're truly vulnerable to bow fire, you can throw darts back at them or close enough. That is to say, the bow troops are more likely to stay away from you, which is protection in itself. Tod, something I'd like to see is an attempt at actually retrieving them from the shield and throwing them while running. I think that'd decisively prove how useful--or not--these are and why we don't see it depicted anywhere else, besides the obvious armor race of the period.

[@marcz2903]

@@cheyannei5983 you don't necessarily have to expose yourself when you throw the dart. You could still hold your shield in front of you and throw the dart over it

[@scholagladiatoria]

Words alone cannot explain how fun plumbata are to throw!

[@euansmith3699]

I think that your enthusiasm for the weapon came across well in the video. 👍

[@marcusfridh8489]

you looked like a kid in a candy store there. ;)

[@tods_workshop]

So very true Matt

[@robc-a6810]

I wonder if the manuscript is depicting the darts attached to the face of the shield and not the back? There doesn't appear to be straps depicted on the image. If the darts were attatched to the front you would still be able to both use and carry the shield which as you both pointed out would impeded by them being on the back. Fascinating video, thanks guys!

[@Kheldul]

Reminds me to grab the old rusty lawn darts my father has in his basement…

[@Anonymous-ev5kj]

I think think the idea that this was a medieval interpretation the Romban Plumbata makes a lot of sense, what is a really tantalising thought to me is the idea that they took the Roman idea (such as them being stored in a shield) as their starting point and then made it work in the context of a medieval battlefield - hence the massive increase in shaft length, and hence the thumb loop. I think we sometimes view post-dark ages historical periods without remembering that they too had access to the classical 'back catalogues' too - almost of our written knowledge of antiquity ultimately comes from texts that have been preserved by successive eras. Wonderful video as always and the collabs with Matt Easton are always awesome.

[@davidegaleotti94]

I think that's exactly the point. Roman republican legionaries carried two pila javelins in their left hand behind the shield and later imperial armies were accustomed to simplified version of the pilum, cheaper to make, with a barbed-like head, called verutum if I recall correctly. I don't know if the veruta javelins had fletches, but they were pretty much contemporary to the plumbata according to Vegetius, so it seems logical the concepts sticked together in sources and in collective military memory.

[@2sudonim]

Actually, most Roman sources were lost during the middle ages. They had to be rediscovered from Muslim sources who had actually preserved them.

[@Anonymous-ev5kj]

@@davidegaleotti94 Great Point, it could be a conflation of Plumbae and Verutae or a simple case of convergent evolution. However, if the text does indeed reference Plumbata then that's a pretty big hint. The key thing is we can never really know, I do believe though that the medieval period were certainly aware of Roman achievements and so it would be strange if they didn't attempt to reproduce and test those Roman inventions that they had access to.

[@iseriver3982]

@@2sudonim not true. There's references to antiquity in the dark ages, and the renaissance was preceded by a mini renaissance in the 13th century. Obviously the Muslims lived in a lot of the places important for antiquity, but it's a myth that it was Muslims rediscovered roman writings for an ignorant christendom.

[@GerackSerack]

@@2sudonim The west had preserved a good amount of Roman sources; most of what has been preserved comes from the Carolingian renaissance. Many ancient sources, specially greek ones, were recovered from the Muslims, and translated mainly in Spain in the 1200s. The last main moment of recovery of ancient texts is the fall of Constantinople, with Byzantine academics fleeing to the West. By the time the manuscript shown in the video was written, the transmission of ancient texts from the Muslim world to the Latin world had concluded a long while ago.

[@jm9371]

Fascinating to watch! Those Plumbata are badass... you would not want to charge straight on against a maelstrom of those being thrown at you.

[@chrisroberts6121]

The friendship between Tod and Matt will go down in history.

[@666toysoldier]

Study of wild chimps shows that they throw underhand, a much more natural motion than overhand. As for using shield darts, I can see a flanking attack on unarmored slingers, with the shield providing protection from slingstones.

[@Dovah47]

I honestly think they should go on the front of the shield, it would make it easy to take them even in formation. Also there is no straps on the manuscript, suggesting it is indeed the front, but it could also be a lack of detail from the guy that drew it.

[@MonkeyJedi99]

Matt's joy with the plumbata is so infectious!

[@Cahirable]

Thinking on how medieval art tends to exaggerate the barbs on arrowheads in the 15th century, is it possible that the barbs were originally less exaggerated? Also, you suggest that some javelins in museums might be darts, so I wonder how many have a swallowtail style and how many have a blade or bodkin head. If some have swallowtails, those might be good ones for museums that start examining for evidence of fletching. Fantastic video as always!

[@snafu2350]

A close (ie microscopic) examination under polarised &/or UV light may reveal some interesting things WRT museums' stocks of early 'javelin' butt ends, but other than lack of budget I find it difficult to believe that this hasn't already been tried many times, even if unsystematically.. I'm not knowledgeable enough WRT forensic archaeological methods to suggest anything better, sadly :(

[@fw2k]

I wonder if the reason the plumbata was not massively stocked as a defensive tool, is that they are so easy to throw and people may worry they just got thrown back at the defenders. And throwing down(with good effect) may perhaps not be as easy?

[@scott9628]

I wish I was in England throwing shield darts with you guy's!

[@shaidrim]

WoW! Nice throwing darts session! About the shield darts, my personal opinion, judging by the illustration setup, is that a straight head like bodkin or needle bodkin instead of a broad one, will make the “take the dart out of the shield” part easier and smoother, speeding up the throwing peace. My two cents

[@aaronhackney9652]

I would love to see the plumbata be tested agianst gambeson or heavy natural clothing. The most common armor for the poorer mass troops

[@calvingreene90]

The shield doesn't look too bad if you assume that you throw the darts before you start pounding on each other with sword and mace.

[@galmannmedbart]

Don't you see what you have done? In 600 years, historical weapons experts are going to think that we were using shields with darts on them. :)

[@metalmikenz]

Great video again. Thanks team! I am really curious why the Plumbata were dropped as you say Tod. They just seem so effective and easy to use. I imagine a significant proportion of Matts excitement had to come from just how far they flew and how effective they appeared. Even in an age of plate armour, you'd think there would have been lightly armed people/horses enough, that these things would have been an absolute menace. What advantage does the larger war dart have over the far more convenient and numerous Plumbata I wonder?

[@theamericancristero7390]

I think weapons like these past very close range are primarily dangerous in volley. If I had my daily carry sidearm and was at 50 meters suddenly defending myself against a dart thrower, I'd probably not even shoot back, I'd be more inclined to dodge, close in, hold at gun point, and call the police. If I was suddenly accosted by Todd with a 960lbs crossbow or Will Sherman with a war bow, I'd probably be run through by the projectile before even drawing at 50yds. No disrespect intended with the hypothetical, just meant as a way of contextualizing the weapons in modernity.

[@medea27]

Intriguing.... the lack of grip or handles on the manuscript drawing makes me think it's a standard shield with the usual forearm straps on the back, but retrofitted with loops for throwing darts _on the front,_ like a temporary quiver of sorts... you & your fellow soldiers could use the throwing darts in your initial assault/charge then you have a shield ready to go. 🛡 Alternatively, maybe the shield was attached to a cart or siege machine to perform the same task of carrying quickly deployed darts into battle & then act as a shield once 'empty' ?? 🤔 It would look pretty intimidating watching battle formations set up with large arrow-covered shields too... they'd be visible from quite a distance.

[@rileyernst9086]

🤔 It seems to me javelins were always popular on the Italian peninsula.

[@michaelholloway8]

Yay for Holloways!

[@MrExeetor]

why did u put it on the inside of the shield? doesnt it make more sense to have it on the outside so u can actually use the shield?

[@anybodykill6666]

In my opinion the scale is a bit to large. Also I believe the loops on the top affixing these to the shield are far to large. In my opinion the fetchings would be the main way of keeping them affixed via gravity and the pocket is not a pocket. instead it seems to be a protrusion. Possibly a simple piece of leather affixed to the shield in which the tips could be pressed into helping keep them in place. This would aid in speed of removal from the shield and deployment into the battle. These types of implements would fit better as an in-between plumbata and javelin. The issue with javelins is the size. We tend to forget the army as an army. Men have to transport these things. As stated a man in armor carrying his main weapon and shield carrying javelins... oof. Military men often say "ounces equal pounds and pounds equal pain." There has to be a reasonable explanation for using these over plumbata. May that be range, accuracy, weight, application, cost, etc. Its seems logical that these were anti calvary weapons for light infantry or skirmishers. Where as plumbata seem to be more useful vs light infantry. Holding up a shield during a 4 hour battle is savagely difficult. Imagine doing so with two or three plumbata stuck in your shield... Excellent video as always. Keep up the good work.

[@konstantinkuhne2396]

Tod, with the "Weird Weapons" you have come up with an absolutely genius formate. It is both entertaining and educative, really really amazing to watch and have the two of discuss your assessment of weird weapons!

[@tods_workshop]

Thanks and we are having fun with it

[@myowndata]

@@tods_workshop And the fun is very visible :) I realy enjoy watching you two having fun, thx

[@mikelawson3683]

Right!

[@Brutus2196]

@@tods_workshop please do fire arrows and compare etc

[@marcogenovesi8570]

Tod is single-handedly resurrecting the lawn dart industry, with deadly lawn darts, longer-ranged deadly lawn darts, and weapon-grade javelins

[@tods_workshop]

There is so much fun to be had in this product area

[@SethKotta]

Lawn javelins, I think you mean.

[@SamuelTyree1]

How do you revive a game that is too dangerous to play? If you're Tod, you make it more dangerous.

[@danmorgan3685]

I love telling younger people about Jarts (a name brand for lawn darts in the US).

[@chopsddy3]

@@danmorgan3685 I still miss my Jarts. They were confiscated ,by concerned parents ,about sixty years ago. To be fair, they were sticking in ten year old heads all over the country. Kids loved them. We went back to throwing un husked walnuts at our “enemies”. I still have a mark. Lucky it wasn’t from Jart!

[@Gcrowan]

Obviously skeleton warriors love the big dart things, because they're inherently resistant to projectile weapons (arrows and darts just pass through between the bones without doing any damage) so enemies can't throw these back at them and friendly fire doesn't do any damage either. Especially considering that skeleton troops would have been most often deployed to terrorize mostly unarmed and unarmoured peasants.

[@SethKotta]

The best way to deal with skeletons is to turn their ribcage into a xylophone.

[@TheKlink]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/pGnHY6VtnJJ8kLs

[@infernaldaedra]

can't argue with this logic Skeleton rangers are OP.

[@renookami4651]

Their whole ribcage can be used to store up the darts, that gives them quite the advantage to harass unarmoured peasents. The dreadful looks, like if they fell victim to that many darts before rising up from the dead, is only an added bonus.

[@Dack.howaboutyou]

Hehe, the real danger of an animated skeleton using ranged weapons is that they have extremely steady aim (hands), in theory making them super deadly accurate. ;)

[@j.f.fisher5318]

Also, experience with air defense against ground attack aircraft suggests that giving soldiers a way to feel like they are hitting back is good for morale. So if the front lines can feel like they are able to hit back against harassers, or if the guys in the back can throw some darts over the melee into the back lines of the enemy, it's good for your army even if it might not do a lot of damage because of good armor or overshooting their lines, or whatever.

[@twoskies3226]

@@anysimmers8702 I wasn't familiar with the story, thank you.

[@cheyannei5983]

@@twoskies3226 The classical proof of this is the IL-2. Almost useless at ground attack, incredibly resource intensive, and Stalin threatened a factory manager with purging for low output. Simple: only the SS units were crazy enough to advance under the incredible rocket strafing runs that the IL-2's would operate on infantry, and when they ran out of those they had a surplus of machineguns to unleash on them. Completely ineffective, though, a small flight of them could stall out an advance of hundreds of soldiers for a whole day. 'As important as air and bread', indeed!

[@lukycharms9970]

That’s a good point. Whenever I watch recaps of ancient or medieval battles the way massively numerically inferior armies can win a battle primarily by scaring and routing the enemy is incredible and happened pretty often. I feel like a lot of casual and even professional historians neglect the human and subjective aspects of a battle in favor of only the objective aspects

[@couchpotatoe91]

That is such an interesting take! Whenever I come across classic ranged warfare I'm reminded about Caesar writing something similar in his de bello gallico. There he mentions how you can easily lower the enemies' morale and urge them to charge recklessly by peppering them with missiles. He even acknowledged that the damage they did was neglegible, but mentions the psychological effect it has when you can't see where the arrows are going to hit next and are victim to them instead of an "honest" melee fight.

[@BY-bj6ic]

@@couchpotatoe91 sounds akin constant artillary bombardment. Lindybeige did a video about that.

[@nosir5596]

Matt's immediate delight at throwing the plumbata was very wholesome.

[@Subutai_Khan]

Hi Tod. I think you and Matt should check out the Jagerstock at some point. It’s a double ended spear that balances in the middle and according to the source we have it was good against multiple opponents. besides having two points it’s an otherwise ordinary spear and mostly shaft but the balance and utility of having two sides seems to lead itself well to quickly bringing a point to bear if people try to surround you. Sparring footage of that might be fun!

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

George Silver's "short staff" was likely very similar. The one apparent illustration of it shows a point on each end, & Silver instructed stabbing with the butt if at close range. He wrote that a person with a short staff has the odds against two opponents with sword & dagger or the like.

[@davidegaleotti94]

I am the only one thinking "Darth Maul" ante litteram at this point?

[@horsebattery]

That's very interesting and I'd never heard of it before. It looks like it was less a two-ended spear and more like a staff with two butt-spikes like those on hoplite's spears

[@Subutai_Khan]

@@davidegaleotti94 Haha I see why that popped in your head. Its not quite the same thing of course since most of the weapon is handle rather than blade making it more practical and unlikely for you to strike yourself with it but you do absolutely swing the thing like a staff sometimes as you sometimes do with other kinds of spear.

[@davidegaleotti94]

@@Subutai_Khan also the source does not depict any lasers I suppose :( meh

[@CarlosRodriguez-dd4sb]

I love that people have always asked 'what if?' just like Tod and his peers do today. Seeing that old manuscript/doodle is a window into history.

[@patdavis6383]

Tod - "I'm just going to take my thong off now." I need to go into therapy.

[@SquidsEye]

I was giggling like a schoolboy around 11:34. Knowing exactly how much finger to put into the ring is very important.

[@olmostgudinaf8100]

You guys have dirty minds. I did not notice that until after you pointed it out 😀

[@lee-lemon]

Tod, I'd like to tell you about some modern spear throwing mechanics. You have different degrees of stiffness of spears, something that you might want to think about. Stiff spears will generally be more unforgiving when thrown, because there is less virbration in the spear, so less area for the wind to catch on to and influence the spears flight trajectory. Softer stiffness of a spear will result in a more forgiving throw, because the spear vibrates more and gives the wind more area to push up on and correct the flight trajectory. I'd love to see you play around with the type of wood and its stiffness, and see if a less stiff "spear" of yours will fly better, more accurate or further.

[@googiegress]

I'm also wondering about the typical atlatl depiction connecting the chucker-arm to the butt of the javelin. Whereas the adjustable thong connects to somewhere in the middle.

[@jupitercyclops6521]

Interesting. They pretty much proved exactly what your talking about during the javelin throw in "Revenge of the nerds"

[@tods_workshop]

Thanks AK

[@jake4194]

Sounds kind of like arrow spine.

[@Dennis12869]

What about putting the darts on the outside of the shield? Then you can still wear the shield.

[@JustSomeVideos0]

Absolutely! That's what I was thinking. Would actually be easier to get out with arm in the shield and the shafts might potentially even provide a degree of protection against bladed weapon strikes if unused.

[@snafu2350]

A reasonable idea, but given the length of those shield darts I suspect having them on the outside may make 'drawing' them from their loop + holster arrangement a bit more awkward; I can also imagine they'd make combat vs an opponent quite a bit trickier too (the ideal shield/armour design tends to be smooth so as not to catch & trap incoming impacts, but deflect them away).. but you'd have to have an expert in this sort of combat to argue/demonstrate why it's not such a good idea: I am in no way such a person! :)

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

That makes more sense to me. I don't see any indication in the original picture that they're on the inside of the shield.

[@Boilerz1]

Also the manuscript doesnt show any way to carry the shield on the side with the darts, indicating that it is showing the outside of the shield

[@crozraven]

But that would risk the darts being damaged by attacks towards the shield. I think having a hip quiver or even back quiver make mucg more sense. You bring 2-3 darts with your hand that carry the shield for combat ready.

[@TerminusTartaros]

Damn if you watch this episode out of context: "Lube adjustment" "Tweaking where they are on the shaft" "maybe the length of this" "how deep you put your finger into the ring" "Your natural reaction is to put your finger right in" "Because it needs to come out more easily."

[@Draugadan]

"Let's remove the thong."

[@dallenlofgreen5331]

Tod: *Has Plumbata Matt: *Turns into kid on Christmas morning

[@crxh2dvtec]

It's so cool to see you make something from a picture, and then try it out. Then see you playfully competing with one another to perfect it. Whether or not it was used in warfare, I bet it was a fabulous tool for sport!

[@tods_workshop]

It was interesting and any interaction with Matt always is, but I feel they were not ever used, just conceived

[@BoarhideGaming]

Tod's Workshop One question I had regarding the drawing from the manuscript: To me, the absence of any kind of handle on the shield is quite glaring, to the point of making me suspect we are looking at the outside of a shield. Why WOULD you have those large darts interfere with your grip on your primary means of self defense, your shield? Then again, I do think you are right in saying that this is medieval speculation. I feel like a contraption this noteworthy would be, well...noteworthy. Yet we see no other depictions of it anywhere. Of course, absence of proof is not proof of absence, but still

[@hrodvitnir6725]

This without a doubt the best colaboration series on all of youtube! You and Matt have great chemistry on camera.

[@tods_workshop]

Thanks and we enjoy it

[@mrkiky]

The cool thing about weird weapons with Tod is that he just makes real functional versions of them and can actually test them. Most other creators don't have access to this ability.

[@tods_workshop]

Like I said at the start of this series - Matt can use them, I can make them and that has to be interesting

[@totherarf]

This has more to do with my personal history rater than actual historical study ...... Nearly 50 years ago we kids would make "Throwing Arrows" out of broken brush staves (so about 1" or 25mm) and 2 -3 ft long. We would throw them by having a piece of string with a knot at one end and a loop at the other. The arrow was held near the point with the string round a finger and running tightly down the length of the shaft to near the fletchings, in a half hitch with the knot stopping it coming undone. The best throws were like an overhand cricket bowling action. The string accelerated the arrow to great effect and I cannot remember a single time the string did not release cleanly. Now this would be difficult to verify in today's H&S era, but ........ They came in with a hell of a scary whistle! If this method were to have been used historically it would have meant loading each arrow would have been as easy as knocking a traditional arrow. It would also have acted as a method of frightening those aimed at, at the very least giving them something else to think of rather than concentrating on killing the enemy.

[@danlee807]

We did the same in the early 60s only we used garden cane, but otherwise we threw with string as you describe.

[@PieterBreda]

The Catalan company who were hired by the Byzantines also used really short throwing spears. The Almogavars were very light infantry that used them with devastating effect. They lived in the 13th and 14th century.

[@Brubigo]

At 1:43, when i look at the drawing i wonder if the darts aren't instead placed on the front of the shield. Because, if you look at the picture, the support rings would catch the arrowhead if you were to draw them upwards. So i figure if the darts were in the front, the user can draw the darts by using his otherhand, and that would be done by going around the shield and hooking the perfect throwing grip whilst the dart is still on the shield, then the user would use a two slide motion to remove the dart, firstly he would slide the dart up enough to clear the bottom pocket, and then he would slide down all the way until the fletching clears the support rings. This scenario allows the user to draw the darts and throw them without having to drop the shield or using two hands to adjust the thong grip. This is a very interesting set up, you have the darts until opponent closes in, and them switch to sword, all this without having to drop the shield, scary.

[@muninrob]

Or put the darts on a center-grip shield instead of a strapped shield.

[@Brubigo]

@@muninrob but that would still force the user to drop the shield in order to access the further half of darts

[@muninrob]

​@@Brubigo Use exactly the technique you described, but with the darts mounted on the back, with the shield being held by a boss grip instead of strapping your forearm in the way. (with the advantages of being able to see what you are doing instead of reaching around blindly, and your throwing arm staying on the protected side of your shield.) Picture the shield as being in line with the striking surface of your left fist, not in line with your forearm.

[@Brubigo]

@@muninrob so if the shield is on the left hand, you would take your right hand and go beneath your left arm to reach the darts on that side? Could work

[@muninrob]

@@Brubigo more under left wrist, but pretty much. On the left you're having to grip further down the shaft to draw and adjust grip to throw, so throw those first.

[@Scout887]

peltasts in antiquity wrapped the leather loop around the shaft 2-3 times that gives the javelin a rotation (like modern bullets) and therefore more stable flight, try it.

[@Scout887]

its called ankyle i think.

[@GarrettDore]

You don't need to rotate it if it has fetching

[@Scout887]

​@@GarrettDore it might fly further and more stable that way. (Less air resistance)

[@M.M.83-U]

At the time they do not use fletching.

[@tods_workshop]

Thanks Scout and I will try that out in a vid. I know it as an amentum, but this doesn't work with fletchings; you specifically don't want it to spin.

[@DH-xw6jp]

Results of the test: Keep your thong well adjusted and use just the tip.

[@stevegotts1407]

It's great the Tod keeps reminding us all to make sure your thong is in the right position.

[@neilcampbell9383]

Could it be for use from horseback ? An alternative to horse archery. Throwing down over the shields into the faces of rear ranks? A pre-gunpowder kind of caracole manoeuvre maybe? Those plumbata are terrifying. Imagine defending a wall breach with thousands of those in the Napoleonic wars in Spain.

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

Lots of historical cavalry used javelins of various sorts. Some may have used something very similar to these shield darts. One account from Froissart has impressive penetration from cavalry javelins, so that type may have been rather heavier.

[@tods_workshop]

Benjamin and also thrown in the direction of movement would pretty much double the effective velocity at impact

[@mwg3025]

Query whether the darts were stored on the outside/front? Perhaps it's the picture's resolution but couldn't see the hand straps.

[@Brubigo]

I just wrote a comment about this, i figure its on the front, i explained better at the comment

[@CIA-M]

The leather loop has essentially the same effect as an atlatl, totally different culture and time period though.

[@rexluna5430]

Well yes but no, the atlatl was well known to the medieval Europeans and had been since the Ice Age at least. I would actually hazard to guess that the reason the atlatl disappeared from the battlefield at the time it did is because the idea of replacing the external tool which could be lost or broken mid battle, with individual rawhide or leather loops which were attached to each individual projectile had evolved. Just a thought though.

[@CIA-M]

@@rexluna5430 oh that's awesome. And indeed a plausible theory why some would prefer a leather loop. Do you know of any sources of medieval atlatl?

[@_theoriginalb4handles_Genflag]

That was my first thought as well, a bit surprised they didn't mention it.

[@carlericvonkleistiii2188]

I think it was Tod who showed how a string not fixed to the shaft, but lodged on a slit on the shaft, was used in Ireland(?) to cast the long fletched javelins shown here.

[@cheyannei5983]

@@rexluna5430 Have you ever used one? Despite appearances, it's not a standard item, and throwers would customize them with weights in different places, different lengths, etc. It's virtually impossible to make a munitions grade, standard atlatl and darts, and still have an effective fighting force... not to mention the training required. Dealing with militias here, you know?

[@muninrob]

Alternative title: "Todd & Matt study the work of their medieval counterparts"

[@dylanmilne6683]

Have you heard of medieval fire hoops? Hoops made of wicker dipped in pitch, set alight and thrown at enemies from castle walls. I believe they were mentioned in detail in a royal armouries yearbook and were from central Europe in the late medieval era. They were certainly used in the siege of Malta in the 1500s, which is all that I can really find easily online. There is sadly so little about these weapons out there. Yes they sound pretty dangerous but I'd love to see a recreation of one or even a video about them without physical demonstrations.

[@tods_workshop]

I will be looking at incendiaries in due course

[@dylanmilne6683]

@@tods_workshop Awesome! In my mind there is no better person to do the subject justice!

[@jlasud]

They were recorded to be used in the siege of Eger castle in Hungary. Hungarians were throwing these from the castle walls down unto the ottoman siegers.

[@acidflare8345]

Hi Tod I think you may have made a small mistake, from the diagram they seem to be on the outside not the inside of the shield. The lack of strapping for the arm (or space)0and the fact having the arrow shafts so close to the users face would in use be undesirable at best. Also look at where the arrow heads would have to go past his forearm that is a recipe for disaster. Also got one of your knives for Christmas and it is exceptional!

[@lorefort]

This makes a lot of sense.

[@mrkiky]

Well you would pull them out of the pouch at the bottom and them slide them downward anyway since you couldn't slide them up through the loop, because of the broadhead. So the blades would never go near the forearm. But there's still no way to actually hold the shield, and you'd think you either use the shield to protect yourself from projectiles, finish throwing your darts before you engage in melee range, or simply not care about the darts getting damaged. So I definitely like the darts on the outside idea.

[@acidflare8345]

@@mrkiky yep inside just makes zero sense. My guess is Tod copied a diagram from someone who was not the greatest artist and put the curve on the shield wrong.

[@tods_workshop]

Acid Flare - you nailed it! I read the (bad) shading wrong and assumed he did not bother showing the grip, but there is another drawing where the darts are on the outside and that does make much more sense

[@lorefort]

@@tods_workshop One would imagine protecting yourself with the shield whilst advancing the battlefield throwing these darts and picking them up as you go!

[@pauln7422]

Good stuff, from the drawing, could it be that the darts were fixed to the outside of the shield, as no hand loops were visible in the drawing that I could see. That would have worked as long as all were discharged before engaging the enemy at close quarters and thus presenting them with some ammunition that they could grab.

[@MyMy-tv7fd]

skeletons in medieval art mean death, that simple, skulls are reminders of mortality

[@thekingjdd]

Good day Tod Keep up the great content

[@IntelVoid]

It looks likr the manuscript says: Dextrorum plumbatorum adversus sagittarios. Either 'The right-hand plumbata, opposite the archers' or 'Plumbata, suitable against archers'

[@HankCarver]

Shield darts otherwise known as sharts.

[@SH-rs6ow]

Reminds me of the Atlatl

[@5chr4pn3ll]

It really does seem strange. It is basically a quiver-shield. So is that actually bringing anything to the table? If you could draw them and throw while you were wearing it, then I can see it kinda working. But that does not seem to be the case. The interpretation of older Roman writings seems the more likely case.

[@MaxSafeheaD]

Interesting thing tht will be the cause of all sorts of speculation but what I found interesting, and this is just what I heard so I should caveat this, but after the end of the ice age, and most megafauna becoming extinct, bows and arrows, more suited to woodland hunting and smaller game took over. It wasn't really until the conquistadores met South Americans, that the devistating potential of the atlatl was rediscovered and it apparently, terrified them. This isall highly speculative but is seems to me that the potential on an open field opposing a large target was forgotten in the old world. I find it quite confusing as to why, perhaps someone could fill in the gaps for me?

[@niccolofattori4393]

Do you have a link of the picture, or an accessible source? One of the words is clearly "plumbate", but i would very much like to see the rest of the text and the rest of the manuscript to get some context

[@jimdigriz2923]

Watching you throw those darts took me back to the 80's, me and my mates used to make 'Dutch arrows' and spend hours lobbing then up and down the fields.

[@olmostgudinaf8100]

"Lawn darts"?

[@jimdigriz2923]

​@@olmostgudinaf8100 These kzbin.info/www/bejne/imO2knqDmdeqqas

[@Juiceboxdan72]

That finger loop is a clever idea that I haven't seen before. In principle it reminds me a bit of the atlatl (increased leverage etc.). Sort of an adjustable atlatl, I guess.

[@nordicgaming8296]

The addition of the finger loop reminds me of the atlatl used by indigenous Americans for hunting. Difference being the thong is replaced by a formed launching stick and the spear is much longer.

[@Joe___R]

I believe in general if you are throwing something at distance it will never be effective against armor & that is why those throwing darts are always seen with broadheads on them. The one exception to this is the roman pilum which can be effective against mail armor.

[@HalSchirmer]

I'm VERY curious to compare the "hang time" for those high throws TO the time it takes to sprint across the field. It occurs to me that this would be a VERY effective way for a line of soldiers to charge AND give themselves "covering fire". Throwing volleys of plumbata as you approach, THEN toss the last one in a high-arc and charge. The poor guys on the receiving end are stuck EITHER looking up to avoid the incoming volley of plumbata, OR looking at the line of foot soldiers charging them. So, I'd be VERY impressed if you could put an equal weight "ban bag" had on one of those, and see whether you CAN throw in a high arc, then sprint ahead so that it comes down JUST in front of you. The leaves your opponent with a dilemma of either look UP and dodge the plumbata or look AHEAD and dodge your sword or speak.

[@AdlerMow]

Put a bodkin point on that. It would penetrate mail and get stuck, being a death sentence because you can't fight like that.

[@liosvartd.mendoza6840]

The way those darts are throwed, with the leather loop, reminds me of the Atlatl. Mechanically they seem to work in a similar way, with the length of the leather strip helping increase leverage

[@SevenStarsandSevenStones]

Is there any way you could collaborate with one of the horse-riding youtubers? I wonder if these would be an effective tool for javelin or dart-armed horsemen like Spanish jinetes.

[@penguasakucing8136]

Jason Kingsley of Modern History TV?

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

Froissart's account of such cavalry javelins claims impressive armor penetration. If at all accurate, I suspect they were rather heavier.

[@SevenStarsandSevenStones]

@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 Fair point. I wonder how well the velocity of the horse would counteract the awkwardness of throwing from the saddle.

[@nothim7321]

I've watched twice now, beginning to end, I am curious as to how much for the long darts, short darts and plumbata, how to get the heads and weights and everything else. These look like such fun. Maybe even useful for hog hunting where legal.

[@nudl3Zz]

"Why did we stop using plumbata? they were so fun" 😀

[@williameddlewis4625]

that opening convo was the most interesting thing iv seen edit: plumbata when?

[@bowmaster619letschug6]

Though i haven't done a lot of research on this subject the concept is similar to what one heard called "The Swiss Arrow". Basically an arrow shaped projectile with a cord of some sort wrapped around it in a loosely twisted fashion that gives both extra leverage and a spin on the "arrow" to increase accuracy and power. The longer ones remind me of very thick atlatl darts just with the atlatl or thrower replaced with the piece of leather.

[@CanadianCuttingEdge]

They don't seem to have much energy when they hit the ground. Would they be useful against naked attackers - most certainly. Plumbate seem to make a lot more sense. Of course, I am talking from a couch in 2021... so what do I know, eh?

[@jubilantjackrabbit1182]

The I instantly think of lawn darts when I see the plumbata.

[@stormiewutzke4190]

Very cool and it looks like tons of fun. I know what my new back yard game is now. I'm loving this series. Keep it up

[@Alexander_Sannikov]

Is it possible that plumbata were not used that much because after throwing there's a good chance of having your own plubmata thrown back at you?

[@biltonoxcho1471]

BTW we see the idea of having javelins on the shield in Africa, I don't remember the region at the moment but there are photos of Africa shields with a pocket for javelins the difference would be that on them the shield is center gripped and the javelins line with the grip so you hold them to place

[@tods_workshop]

Thanks and if you find that let us know

[@86red-ch]

It wasn’t a bit dangerous to “give” some weapons to your enemies? This kind of big arrow seams strong enough to be thrown back

[@chengkuoklee5734]

Easier to say than done. You need space & coordination to throw effectively. I don't think you can easily throw back in the middle of formation with meaningful impact.

[@Blackobluna]

10:48 look at that grouping tho, RIP that one guy in particular

[@ihcfn]

I can't help but feel that the speed test should be done with the shield as removing the darts, setting your finger in the thong with a shield on your offhand and then throwing the dart would be slower.

[@Honeybadger_525]

I can definitely see how Taccola's manuscript was most likely inspired by Roman plumbata. However, one difference I noticed is that all recreations I've seen of Roman plumbata were stored on the backside of center grip shields whereas Tod's recreation has an arm strap configuration. Seems like you could just hold the darts in your shield hand and not bother with the extra straps. Of course, depending on the size of dart you may not be able to carry as many.

[@tods_workshop]

Yes the system as shown would be awkward as hell, but I was looking at the darts more and just recycled a shield I had here

[@GuusvanVelthoven]

All these darts need are a weak point so they can only be thrown once.

[@extrastuff9463]

Regardless of whether that interpretation of the manuscript might've been a bit off and the shield as designed wasn't a thing, I found this video very interesting to watch. In particular how much of a difference that simple loop of leather on the darts made and the observation that you can change the trajectory by shifting its position a bit.

[@ArkhBaegor]

The one disadvantage I can think of with plumbata is that they seem really easy to throw back at whoever threw them

[@tl8211]

Yeah, you would need to have some coordination and large enough units to throw a whole lot of them, so that any attempt at throwing back will be irrelevant compared to the damage they delivered.

[@willyjimmy8881]

So a leather thong can make it longer? Good to know. 🤔

[@benhayfield6182]

Loving this series. Would love to see lantern shield with built in arm armour, though I appreciate that's a much bigger undertaking. I always thought Jamie Leinster should have had something like that made after he lost his hand, they even mention (,books I think ) that the golden hand can grip a shield but it's not great, and I'd really like someone knowledgeable to look at a similar systems utility for a handles person. Keep up the good work guys

[@mrkiky]

The lantern shield has to be some rich person's one off commission. So many things about it don't make sense. Like why bother incorporating a gauntlet when you can just have a slightly bigger shield, that offers better protection and is easier to make. And just the fact that it's a lantern shield indicates it must have some super niche use. Maybe some nobleman was afraid of roaming through his castle alone when he couldn't sleep, so he commissioned an item to make him feel safer.

[@lestrike2707]

I guess those arrows weren’t used anymore because the enemy could throw them back at you xD

[@SeadartVSG]

I think that is probably correct.

[@hamshackleton]

I was waiting for you to throw the BIG ones!

[@harrykouwen1426]

Really great to watch this content, and a massive compliment to you all making, testing and discussing how on earth old ideas and weapons were used. I wonder if these darts or spears could have been thrown using a throwing stick or atlatl type method, even on the leather loop. It gives far greater range and higher speed. A well trained person can be astonishing accurate with it.

[@Afro408]

So much scope for improvement there. 👏👏👍😁 A Womera, like Austrailian Aborigines used, would give you much more range and power.

[@ObservantPiratePlus]

Likely phased out from active use in warfare because Rule# of Throwing Weapons is: "Never throw something at someone that they can easily throw back." Q.E.D.

[@wolf310ii]

Well, one disadvantage of throwing lots and lots plumbatas at the enemy is, you give the enemy lots and lots of plumbatas to throw them back at you. A few days ago i heard about the hypothesis that the heads of the war arrows where "glued" with wax onto the tip of the arrows, instead of pitch tar, so the arrow head would come off after hitting something and the enemy couldnt use them. In theory it sounds plausible, but is it in praxis?

[@tods_workshop]

I heard that years ago about arrows and no idea if it is true, I suspect not as it would make transport tricky. As to throwing them back I think were meant to be deployed in the few seconds prior to two lines engaging so very little time to throw them back- too busy trying not to get hit

[@wolf310ii]

@@tods_workshop Maybe someone should test the wax hypothesis. Like someone who has a workshop, has experience with medieval stuff and has a YT channel. Im sure that would be a interessting experiment

[@stav1369]

I love the Tod and Mat collabs. They are 2 of my favourite "medieval" youtube historians/vlogers. There are other good ones but these 2 stand out for me.

[@tods_workshop]

Thank you - very kind

[@tpop3723]

Lawn darts before they were Lawn darts 🎯!

[@LOFIGSD]

Used these in Ireland and Scotland for sure, my Grandfather taught my Father and he was taught by his Grandfather in the 19th Century. Tod, the cord is used to throw, by having a thick knot, looped around once and laid flat, with a loop on the other end for your finger and thrown similar to an atlatl, but with more of a flick, once shown it is easy you dont need to do what you are doing with the leather, you can even throw longbow arrows like this.

[@BlueberryBricks]

Reminds me a lot of an atlatl type system.

[@rileyernst9086]

Tod shows off the war darts, then immediately ups the game by breaking out the Anti-Material darts. 😆

[@gidkath]

The skeleton is "Ankou" (look up the Wikipedia article for a heck of a lot more information on the entity). It's the manifestation of Death before the Grim Reaper became popular. Ankou was all about personalized death, a single dart, or some other weapon, that would strike you down wherever you might be, singled out from everyone else around you. In modern military jargon, "your number was up." The Grim Reaper that came later with the rise of the Black Death was a depersonalized death, people being mowed down like sheaves of grain by the plague sweeping the land.

[@philozoraptor6808]

Any chance for the javelin speed / KE? If the KE is high enough, bodkin / pilum like head could possible penetrate armor of charging knight (since he would add lot of KE himself).

[@ScottStoryillustrator]

Off subject, slightly, but the embraciatura as drawn by Achilles Marazzo would be good weapon for your weird medieval weapons segments. It is sort of like a long heater shield with a dagger or spike on the bottom.

[@neverforged]

Could they be on the outside of the shield in that picture? Would make sense for access before closing to melee...

[@drj.r.cooper2493]

This period isn't within my core area of expertise, but 2 points might be relevant. 1-The leather attachment makes the dart function more like an atlatl than anything else. 2-As a lifelong hunter (in the southern Appalachian mountains), combining atlatl-like darts, flesh tearing arrowheads & a shield makes sense. Various Native American tribes (and Native Peoples from other continents) used shields on hunting expeditions. If I was hunting wolves, wild dogs, bear, wild boar, mountain lions or other aggressive/dangerous prey in the 1400s... I would definitely carry a shield.