Major 3rd Problem of All Guitars in the World

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Microtonal Bach Experiment ► goo.gl/DkZpG3
Major 3rd Problem of All Guitars ► goo.gl/RfQEBY
This video is a result of a year long research at the University of Bristol with Dr. Michael Ellison and funded by the Scientific and Technological Research Council of Turkey (TUBITAK).
Did you know that you can play natural major 3rds on the piano too? goo.gl/k5aVXG
I'd like to thank Geoffrey Smith who is the inventor of the Fluid Piano. Geoff helped me a lot with the English text.
Many thanks to Ali Kazım Akdağ for mastering.
www.microtonalguitar.org
#microtonalguitar #microtonalmusic #musictheory #guitar

[@seanmcaleavy2369]

Tolgahan, I have been playing guitar for almost 40 years. And in all that time I have always thought that something was slightly off. I am a hardcore tuning freak! I mean I am always pressuring bandmates to get in tune and as for myself, I tune between each and every song. Even going so far as to add the tronical tuning system to my main stage guitar and one other backup guitar. After all, if you're not in tune, then even when playing at your best level you aren't sounding your best. But even with all these extra measures I have taken, the slightly off sound is still present. I just stumbled upon your video by accident and what an eye opener it was for me. I want to say to you, thank you very much! I am now going to watch more of your videos and try and fix this lifelong dilemma I have endured. I am really excited right now! Thank you very much for showing some light at the end of the tunnel! Peace to you and your family

[@microtonalguitar]

Thank you very much Sean. Glad to hear this. I think you need an electric adjustable microtonal guitar. The only problem is you can't bend though.

[@denfinch8042]

Well said, Sean! This equal temperament is grim, even on a bass unless unmarked fretless. And the more strings, the worse it becomes!

[@dallasgross7293]

you care just slightly too much. tuning every song? might want to check your instrument for imperfections and then go to yourself for the same reasons

[@TheZynMan]

Some people have better ears than others. I think we'd all keep tuning if we kept hearing it be wrong. If you watch guys like BB or Albert King they would be reaching over adjusting tuning in between licks all the time; these were 'less is more' guys with notes, meaning the pitches were really out there in the spotlight and needed to be right on. When you see them adjusting their tunings by ear and feel 10 or 15 times in a song, you start to think that maybe in between every song isn't so crazy for someone with a really good ear.

[@adb012]

Of course, Tolga forgot to mention the why of the equal tempering and the downside of harmonic tuning. The problem is that it is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to tune all the notes as proper harmonics of each other. I won't go into the details of why, but suffice to say that it would require square root of 2 to be a rational number, which is not. Taking any note as base (let's take C as an example), if you take a harmonic third (that would be E), then another harmonic third (G sharp), then another harmonic third (C of the next octave), the new C will be completely out of tune with the first C. Another way to explain it, the B is a lousy 3rd of G, but it is an excellent 5th of E. Add a fret to improve the G's third and you spoil the E's 5th. So you can do great to tune in true harmonics for a chord or two, but you will be spoiling the rest. Equal tempering is a sort of middle ground where all the chords will have some notes slightly off but equally off. None will sound perfect, but a C major, F major, G sharp major, or any other major will sound exactly equal (just transposed). Any attempt to improve the tempering for some chords will worsen it for others. UNLESS... you put enough frets out there to make the perfect 3rd, 3rd minor, fourth, fifth, seventh and so on of EVERY note. Then you will not have 12 notes but 12*(whatever number of harmonics you want for each note), that is at least 48 notes if you want to be able to play every chord just in their major, minor and 7nth versions.

[@DARTH_FADER]

"a guitar player spends half their life tuning and the other half playing out of tune"

[@attilakovacs5803]

A piano player, then, spends his/her whole life playing out of tune.🎹😀 So, we have an advantage.🎸

[@sonoancoralbar]

🤣

[@televinv8062]

Great wisdom here, lol. 👍🙏

[@hakonosatowakugai7256]

Lol

[@JustHaroon56]

Lmao

[@JoshuaConnorMusic]

before people start praising this as a solution to centuries of inconsistencies, there's a reason we ditched just intonation in favour of equal temperament. With just intonation we try to keep each interval as simple a mathematical ratio as possible: an octave is 2:1, fifth is 3:2 etc. but with 12 notes in our tuning system, you simply cannot have these ratios apply to all intervals in all keys. what may sound rich and full in the key of C, will sound absolutely horrendous and out of tune in the key of F#. In equal temperament, we tune to 12 over the square root of 2, essentially making all 12 notes equal semitones apart, with the octave being exactly double the initial note (keeping that 2:1 ratio). So yeah our simple and pleasing ratios are gone, but now every interval in every key is consistent. In this case with these microtone frets, the key of A may sound great, but the second you start moving into other keys and start using more complex harmony you're going to run into a lot of problems. It's an interesting experiment for sure, and if you know for sure what keys and chords you're going to be using you can have some fun, just know that you're putting a lot of limitations on your instrument by doing this. edit: sorry, meant equal temperament not true temperament

[@azazulsoulmeister7959]

JimJamBanx Isn't true temperament where all the frets are bent?

[@thepoofication]

Exactly this. It's a problem but if you want to play in all tunings on a guitar the guitar as we know it now is the best approximation. That's why all music today is made with these instruments.

[@microtonalguitar]

I agree with you but what I am trying to suggest is depending on the pieces you play, we can correct some intervals and also with my movable fretted guitar design, I can play many pieces with natural intervals: kzbin.info/www/bejne/g4qukIN8bryHiKc

[@dat_chip]

It would certainly sound bad, but I'm quite sure Tolgahan is aware of these limitations. I guess there are different ways to go about this. A few ideas off the top of my head: * Use the modified guitar only when you know that you're gonna play a song in a key that really fits the way it was modified. Have a normal guitar ready in case you need to play something else. * If you're gonna spend a lot of money going to the studio to record an album, you might as well go through the hassle of changing the modifications to the guitar to fit every single song. I've also noticed how chords seem to be far less common in old kinds of arabic and african music. They stick to melodies. I have a feeling this might be because of just intonation.

[@JoshuaConnorMusic]

dat_chip Traditional middle eastern music didn't work with chords because the idea of functional harmony comes from western music, a lot of eastern music deals with much more complex tuning systems with many more notes per octave, making any sort of harmony outside of simple things like drones extremely complicated. Not to mention they didn't use just intonation, they had completely different tuning systems with different scales and microtones. So you're sort of right, and now it's not uncommon to appropriate traditional music from other cultures with more western harmony. As for the whole studio thing, I disagree. Studio time is extremely expensive, and most artists would not be able to afford either seperate instruments for every song, or have the time to modify all of their existing instruments. Not to mention even if they did, it would only work in songs that stick exclusively to one key, and even then harmony would have to be limited severely. If, for example, you're playing an instrument tuned for the key of C in just intonation, if you play a D and an A together, what should be a perfect fifth, you get a ratio that is far from the normal 3:2 for a perfect fifth, instead you get an incredibly dissonant interval known as the wolf fifth (KZbin it), meaning that if you're playing a song in C, even if you never play any weird harmony or modulate at all, if the piece has at any point a D and an A (which would occur naturally in the ii chord), you might as well sick with true temperament. harmony has evolved so much over the centuries, just intonation simply doesn't cut the mustard for most of today's music. it's really only useful for playing more traditional stuff like tolgahan is demonstrating.

[@RaulRamirezdrummer]

As a trained trumpet player I was taught to always flatten a major 3rd just a bit and even less so in the opposite direction for a dominant 5th when playing major chords and ultimately to always be able to adjust my pitch for the chord. The buzz of a finely tuned chord is just so pleasing.

[@microtonalguitar]

Wow, great to hear this. Check this one with a saxophone: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Zmfacpmhbqajjrs

[@iamamish]

Man this problem bugged me for so long when I was learning guitar. I’d sometimes tune to a chord like G, then find my E chord sounded awful. Had I understood tempering I wouldn’t have gone so crazy. Thanks for sharing and hopefully saving the next generation of guitar players from the tempering insanity.

[@microtonalguitar]

Glad to hear that! Have you tried the microtonal Bach experiment?

[@iamamish]

@@microtonalguitar Just did. It's harder for me to hear on my computer when somebody else is playing, but the first 2 sounded best to me. I'm most sensitive to the major 3rd intervals being slightly out of tune. All 4 of the tunings sounded 'good' to me; none were jarring. I love what you are doing, and the microtonal guitar you built!

[@microtonalguitar]

@@iamamish Thanks a lot! Last but not least you might like "History of Microtonal Guitars" video. Cheers.

[@srnunan4783]

Me too, i must have thrown out a thousand sets of strings in vain. I always put it down to sweat from my fingers adding small amount of grime to certain parts of the string resulting in uneven mass distribution along the string length... nobody told me that guitars by design are a tuning compromise and can never be in tune for any more than one chord at a time.......

[@jathondelsy]

Those chords with natural thirds sound gorgeous.

[@microtonalguitar]

I agree!

[@lagduck2209]

Sounds so clean its almost surreal, to unexpecting untrained ear

[@microtonalguitar]

@@lagduck2209 Try the Microtonal Bach experiment for a Bach piece with natural intervals.

[@willb3698]

When I switched from a fretted instrument to a fretless acoustic instrument (Double Bass) it was a real ear opener for me. that whole business just disappeared and it's quite amazing how sharp or flat (for want of a better phrase) we can push it. All instruments are a compromise at some point - but I don't miss that absolute tuning! That's what is so great about many orchestral pieces - no 3rd's ever the same!

[@microtonalguitar]

I agree! Try the Renaissance experiment: kzbin.info/www/bejne/epvcf5qwn7Otr68

[@nickxiao6126]

Gosh I had never heard a guitar chord so resonant

[@microtonalguitar]

Glad to hear that

[@bpabustan]

@@microtonalguitar and here's the catch, Happy Birthday sounds SO SWEET, those little frets make a world of difference! This is an eye opener. Like who would ever thought you can make that played to death song get your attention and make it sound a lot better by SIMPLY PLAYING IT IN PERFECT TUNE? WOW, man!

[@microtonalguitar]

@@bpabustan Nice to hear that Bryan!

[@pouncebaratheon4178]

Our logarithmic method is probably the best for performance instruments, since they sound good (albeit imperfect) in all keys. I do wish there was more support in DAWs for perfect harmonic intervals though; there's no reason why synths need to conform to equal temperament.

[@yikelu]

It's a good idea but not completely straightforward. You want to tune higher notes to the root note of the chord, sure. This in itself requires perhaps a separate MIDI input to specify the root. In addition, is the root scale just tempered or equal? Probably depends on the harmonic complexity (whether you change keys/borrow chords). Remember, the reason that equal tempering exists is that the harmonic series ratios don't cycle back around.

[@romeolz]

​@@yikeluthere exists software like scale breaker and alt-tuner which have adaptive tuning = they guess the reference note and tune the other notes relative to it using pitch bend Plus you can always just use more than 12 notes!

[@termiguin1]

Not sure why so many people feel as if they need to make a rebuttal. A talented musician made an informative video about natural harmonies to educate those who didn't know, such as myself. Great video anyway!

[@sitarnut]

Right on Santa-baby... it's called Ego, and grasping that too fully, well, then it's difficult to admit one doesn't know everything, and subsequently find it difficult to learn from someone else.....I think it's a great vid and we all studied Helmholtz in college in the 60's. It's all in his book and tons more. Check it out.

[@emersonsrandomvideos248]

Simple: They want to look genius facing a music maestro.

[@Jellylamps]

I feel that, at least for some of these people, it’s because the video didn’t offer any counter points. Some people might feel like this video is a declaration of a better system and they want to keep people informed of the good and bad of things

[@teriakamoto]

Same reason You go by the Moniker "Racist Santa" my My Nizzle. We stupid fuckers. Peace.

[@bendowson3124]

My big problem with this video is that it doesn't demonstrate the problem of equal temperament accurately. He claims that equal temperament causes the fourth fret on the E string to sound different from the first fret on the G string, but that is not the case. As long as you tune each string according to equal temperament, then all octave intervals on a guitar should be an exact 1:2 ratio, meaning that the first fret on the G string will be exactly one octave higher than the fourth fret on the E string. The problem he's describing only occurs if you try to tune the strings according to the just intonation intervals.

[@t1ntakulus]

Lute players often skew their frets (which are made of moveable nylon/gut) to suit the key of a piece. I used to do that a lot, less so as I got older. Guitar intonation can be troublesome, mostly though because of the varying string thicknesses (esp the g 3rd) and a saddle that hasn’t been intonated by a luthier. More so than by the harmonic inaccuracies of equal temperament.

[@wondercream]

Wow I really thought I was crazy my whole life haha. I always feel unconfortable playing those chords on the standard guitar. I can really hear the notes not matching up with the vibrations of each string in a chord. I begin to question if my hearing was a miss and always wanted to slightly retune my guitar to make it sound more in unison. You have saved my peace of my mind. Thank you very much!!! Now I will research more on this hahha. Thank you thank you!!!

[@microtonalguitar]

Glad to hear that! You're welcome.

[@leedress2187]

E major has always pissed me off. I need this!

[@sxnthwave]

I’ve been playing electric guitar long enough that I bend or press certain strings slightly more than others to achieve perfect pitch. It comes with muscle memory and knowing which chords are a bit off and which notes you really have to dig into or press lightly. I never have issues now. However with a classical style of playing I can see where this would be more beneficial

[@tylerc5311]

What strings and notes for which chords? If you could please tell me :)

[@sxnthwave]

Tyler C As I said it’s honestly just muscle memory. A few examples would be how if you get too sloppy and press down too hard on the bottom E on a G chord it goes sharp and makes the whole chord sound funny. It really just depends on your playing style. Mick Mars of Mötley Crüe sometimes even tuned his b string a bit flat to counter his aggressive playing style. It’s different for everyone

[@jamesgregoric5786]

Exactly. This video does a good job of explaining the problem, and Ryan here has done a great job of describing a practical solution that eliminates the need for the taped-on micro fret. I'm sure it takes a lot of time to learn which strings need to be pressed harder for a given chord, and a ton of practice/time to burn this knowledge into muscle memory, but if you're a stickler for perfect intonation it may well be worth it.

[@juant4993]

No offense but if you think where those micro frets are located there is no way to loosen the string to go flat when you are actively playing. Bending will make the note go sharp. Pressing more or less just adjusts volume and not tuning. He is talking about resonance here.

[@sxnthwave]

juan T There is a way to loosen the string.. my guitar has six of them on the headstock. If I’m gonna be playing thirds I generally flatten my b string a couple cents to make it ring out like it should

[@paulanderson79]

Even temperament is there for a reason. You'd have to re-fret the instrument for each of the 24 different key signatures otherwise.

[@microtonalguitar]

paulanderson79 Yes, you have a point: kzbin.info/www/bejne/epvcf5qwn7Otr68

[@cangjie12]

Why not?! :) But not 24 different key signatures; you only have to accommodate a few keys because many keys share the same notes (unless you're in a very chromatic piece, which is rare).

[@MrSeanomon]

Yeah, I was going to mention this. Of course, having a few guitars set to keys you frequently use, and having one normally fretted guitar for everything else could be reasonable. To be honest, I've become very sensitive to pitch recently, and understand the appeal of a product like this.

[@thepoofster2251]

There are 30 key signatures actually

[@rich1051414]

Couldn't you just use frets that aren't straight, curved to compensate, but then place the curved frets equal temperament?

[@laceibagroove]

It's very well explained on this book "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why You Should Care)" by Ross W. Duffin, and it's amazing how it's not only a problem in the guitar but even on a symphonic orchestra!

[@microtonalguitar]

I am reading the book for the second time at the moment :)

[@MrJdsenior]

By FAR the best video I've seen explaining the resonance part of 'cleanly" tuning chords. VERY nice! VERY well explained,, even a non musician could understand this easily and quickly.

[@microtonalguitar]

Glad to hear that!

[@hansdevriesvonmengden3639]

Really nice! Because I play the Turkish oud I was obsessed with managing to play in tune, which you have to do by listening carefully. For a long time I had the misconception that the guitar, which I used to play, showed that being in tune meant using exact spaces on the soundboard. After all, that is how the frets are visually ordered on the soundboard, aren't they. Then I heard that the guitar and the piano use compromise tunings. It was both a relief and an extra complication, a relief because the ambition to be exactly in tune apparently wasn't so widespread, a complication because, well, it is more confusing than I thought. Playing Turkish makams with 4 comma's per note doesn't make it easier :-).

[@GlennFrog]

Maybe this explains why I never liked the sound of open A or E major in standard tuning. I'd rather play the minor.

[@omarnare]

A quick way to experience this is to cut up an old E-string. You can make different sized "frets" and tape them to the guitar.

[@microtonalguitar]

Omar Naré Good idea!

[@kitemanmusic]

As long as the glue holds!

[@evanmurphy6640]

I made a video on this

[@ahmetbayr2486]

Yani ne diyeyim, resmen kulaklarım tatmin olmanın ötesinde doyuma ulaştı dinlerken. Bu olayın farkında olupta seni keşfedeli çok kısa bir zaman oldu, 26 yıldır gitar çalıyorum, inan bana senin microtonal gitarı dinlerken ki doyuma hayatımda hiç ulaşamadım.

[@microtonalguitar]

Sevgiler

[@hamnchee]

Now what we need is a guitar with robotic moving microfrets that pop up or down on the fly with the push of a button, depending on the key. Now you can have instant true temperament without having to switch guitars between songs (or during songs with key changes).

[@microtonalguitar]

Good idea. I've been working on this for 3 years but it is very difficult.

[@saichung6246]

@@microtonalguitar Any progress?

[@microtonalguitar]

@@saichung6246 Watch the video: Automatic Microtonal Guitar

[@valentindavion8312]

This is great but only works for particular keys (A major in this video), as soon as you change key you would need another guitar, modulations quickly become impossible, which is why the equal temperament was created

[@microtonalguitar]

You are right. On my adjustable microtonal guitar with movable frets, I can play natural tones when I change the key as well. Watch my microtonal Bach experiment.

[@funtky]

valentin god

[@joshuascholar3220]

Right, people who want to do both have to use synths with special changes. Wendy Carlos did it using I think 144 notes per octave >.>

[@xiocrafter]

Thank you teacher. This was so clear and well mapped out. I hope you put up more of your own music

[@microtonalguitar]

Nice to hear that.

[@JariSatta]

The difference is detectable.

[@XYXZProductions]

Jari Satta the difference is he doesn’t know how to tune his guitar :/

[@codyi5232]

You’re a genius and you’re helping make our instrument better .

[@microtonalguitar]

Thanks a lot!

[@masterleeNL]

Cok basarili ve anlasilabilir bir aciklama. I'm so happy you decided to make the tutorials in English. I play keys and almost never touch a guitar but your theory lessons are great to improve and expand my musical knowledge. Thank You!

[@microtonalguitar]

Sevgiler.

[@CalHamandi]

The amount of resonance it adds is amazing!!

[@microtonalguitar]

I absolutely agree!

[@laughingdaffodils5450]

HI. If you think this is a problem it's not one that affects only guitars. It also affects pianos, organs, woodwind and brass instruments. I'd say it's an oversimplification to call it a problem. The 'unnatural' 3rd is a different note but it's still a note, if it's the note you want to sound then it's not a problem, and most music written in the past couple of centuries uses that, not the harmonic 3rd. Only when you want the harmonic 3rd instead is it a problem, and it's a problem then regardless of instrument, for the most part. Of course there is no technical impediment to playing the harmonic 3rd on fretless instruments. On fretted instruments you are instructive. Another possibility with very different results is using an open tuning with one string voicing a third, however. On a woodwind or brass instrument? I imagine they would have to be physically reworked. On a piano, you can tune so you have the harmonic 3rd in some keys but this makes other keys sound awful. This is the reason the tempered 3rd was invented. You probably knew all this but just in case. Thanks for the video, I really enjoyed it.

[@microtonalguitar]

Thank you for your comment. When you tune a open string to the harmonic 3rd, you can't use the frets on that string, that's why I don't like it. I think the best solution is my movabe fretted guitar and I can play in different keys as well: kzbin.info/www/bejne/g4qukIN8bryHiKc

[@laughingdaffodils5450]

Well you *can* use the frets on that string actually, but of course you have to choose the notes to play like that very carefully - only to play harmonic thirds but you can fret for different keys. Or you can fret and bend up very slightly to correct if you must use it for a different note. But yeah, it's not an across the board solution just one trick that works for certain things. More relevant to slide players than to the music you play. You could also use a vibrato to flatten the thirds slightly too, but a classical guitar with a vibrato lol where would you find that? The results you get with the movable frets are very cool though. It seems very much like tuning a piano to a different temperament, only it can be done more quickly. I wonder if you ever try to play with woodwinds or brass though? I can't imagine a way they could harmonize that without actually having new holes drilled.

[@microtonalguitar]

No, I haven't played with woodwinds or brass instruments. As I know, they can adjust their tones with their mouth/tongue technique. Can't they?

[@laughingdaffodils5450]

I haven't played that sort of instrument since I was a kid so I'm no authority, I remember vaguely it was possible to 'bend' a little bit now that you mention it, so I googled it, and I guess you're right. Jazz players have to do it. Sounds like a heck of a lot of work on the players part though. Cheers!

[@zacharytaylor190]

You can tune a tipani in that way, and you can change the slide position slightly on trombone. I believe on valved instruments there are tuning slides for each individual valve, but I don't know if they could be set on a way to tune it to the harmonic 3rd. And as you said, with fretless instruments it's of no object. You would have to tamper with the structure and placement of the clarinet keys if you wanted to maintain a strong sound. I play trombone primarily and a little bit of electric and upright bass. Also some small amounts of percussion. I was also inevitably exposed to clarinet with my mom playing it. I don't have any experience with saxophone, flute or any valved instrument.

[@gerrabath]

This video has been a revelation. All these years I've been battling with a slight dischord on open E's, A's and D's. The only found remedy being to slightly detune the 1st and 2nd strings. All these years I thought it was a bridge height/trussrod/mental imbalance problem. Turns out it's non of the above. Well maybe just a little of the last one..... :-)

[@worldwyn]

Thank you for this very useful discussion! When I first started playing the guitar I always thought that there was something wrong with me and my ability to tune my guitar. Or that I just had a bad guitar. Or that my guitar was not set up correctly. It turns out that there a many factors at play. Tuning issues have been a perpetual problem, particularly for polyphonic instruments, that has been tackled in many different ways for centuries. The pitch of a string is determined by its tension and its length. Pythagoras identified the perfect fifth as a fundamental ratio of nature. It is created by taking a string and shortening its free length by a ratio of 2:3. He also identified the octave as the ratio of 1:2. The perfect fifth and the octive both sound very nice, but there is a big problem when you play multiple notes at the same time as on a guitar or piano. If one starts at a low-frequency note such as an A at 55Hz and creates notes separated by perfect fifths each note name in the western scale is produced eventually coming back to A. Doing this same process just with octaves of A notes one goes from 55Hz in multiples of 2 to 7040Hz. However, the frequencies generated with the ratio 3:2 for fifths eventually produce a note that should be an A, but is 7136Hz or 96Hz sharp! So you can either have perfect fifths or perfect octaves, but not both. Modern guitar fret positions are typically set to successively divide the scale length using a factor of 17.817 to produce theoretical equal intervals between half-steps and placing the 12th fret at a distance from the nut that is half the nominal scale length. A properly intonated guitar will have the octaves at twice the frequency of the open strings. But it turns out that the distance from the 12th fret to the bridge has to be just a little longer than from the nut to the 12th fret to produce the perfect octaves and each string behaves differently depending on their diameter and whether they have a wound layer or not. Once we get the bridge locations set to produce perfect octaves, we now come back to the issue of fifths that aren't a perfect ratio (and thirds for that matter) and the extra problem guitars have which I will come to shortly. One can tune a guitar to produce a really nice, rich open E chord, but then the open G or open D are off. Upper octave notes sound bad with open strings. All one can do is try to tune to minimize the dissonances and then use finger pressure, bending, vibrato, or modification of the string tension by pulling the string tighter or looser along its axis (this last technique is much more possible with nylon strings!). Guitars have an additional problem. When one is depressing the strings close to the nut one is not just changing the free length of the string, but also significantly changing the tension making first, second, and third fret notes noticeably sharp. Adding microtonal frets is a clear improvement that I hadn't thought of until seeing this video. Another solution that I have added to a Paul Reed Smith electric guitar and purchased as an option on a John Suhr electric guitar is a fairly simple and inexpensive modification invented by guitarist Buzz Feiten. It incorporates a "shelf" nut that moves the position where the string exits from the nut slightly closer to the first fret. One also sets the intonation and tunes the guitar to slightly different frequencies than normal. What results is a huge improvement in intonation all across and, up and down the fretboard. Modifications are available for acoustic and electric guitars. There are luthiers worldwide (including Turkey) that are experienced in the modification. www.buzzfeiten.com

[@microtonalguitar]

Thanks a lot for your comment, very instructive. On this video, I talked more about tuning: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hYbSoGR8gKimaKs

[@kitemanmusic]

Yes there is! (lol)

[@gamemastertristan3951]

This is absolutely wonderful! I feel that western music is clearly at a turning point and pioneers like you take it to the next levels.

[@microtonalguitar]

I hope so! Have you tried the Renaissance experiment: kzbin.info/www/bejne/epvcf5qwn7Otr68

[@joecaswell]

Very interesting video, and that first A major chord played after adding a single small fret sounds amazing, you can really hear the difference

[@microtonalguitar]

Glad that you like the A major!

[@therealzilch]

@@microtonalguitar who doesn't like a good A major chord?

[@trnobles]

If you can't get small frets, you can also use a small piece of one of the bass strings! Just cut off a little bit of one of your spare strings and tape it to the fretboard. The A string usually works best, depending on what gage string you're using

[@microtonalguitar]

Great idea! Thanks.

[@parkerhatcher224]

Smart!

[@95TurboSol]

Or a tooth pick, the wood might not last as long though.

[@Muzikman127]

I find flatwound strings work pretty well for improvised frets. Not tried polished nylon strings but i would imagine they work too. The lack of ridges just makes it a little more reliable , and also lets you "modern" vibrato styles, which personally I really like doing on nylon (as well as the classical side-to-side vibrato).

[@microtonalguitar]

Hi guys! Have you tried the Renaissance experiment: kzbin.info/www/bejne/epvcf5qwn7Otr68

[@stylis666]

Brilliant! I will take out some frets of an old broken guitar and start experimenting! This fixes so many problems I have with so many of my songs!

[@microtonalguitar]

Glad to hear that! Send me your videos with the just 3rd and 6ths.

[@jeffcotton2120]

The gauge differences of the strings can also be tuned with the keys to different locations on tuning instrument scale markers. Then tuned by ear. The standard way of tuning a guitar taught is off of natural frequency fervencies & at 440. I now tune my guitars to be 5 notes apart between all open strings. Then at 416 or 417 instead of 440, which lands at one note down from current standards used. Then i relearned finger pattern scales according to the chromatic main fervency blends, then the Greek Major & (Minor (pentatonic)) Scales, which have some of the main scale fervency blends ascending & descending in them. The main fervency scale is found by using the chromatic order scale of every ascending & descending tone or note in order. Then picking a root note ( r = root ), then adding notes to the root note, to r +4, +5, +7, +8, +9 & +12, then start again using the same pattern at every octave. So r +12 + 4 = r +16, +17, +19, then begins to shift because of string gauge sizes & natural wave flow to r +21, +22, +24, +26 but basically sticks to the first pattern with variations up & down. So r + 24 +4 = r + 28, +29, +31, +33, +34, +36, New octave, r +40, +41, +43, +45, +48. The kinds of metals used to create strings also have different quality level effects, this takes more Scientific research to study Vibrational Resonate Frequencies & sound wave formations using meter displays & cymatics...

[@microtonalguitar]

I am lost, very confusing :)

[@OrdinaryNimda]

Excellent eye opener! I mean... ear opener. Hm, this is also good for the brain, it explains a lot. Very enlightening! That is also why experienced classical guitarists use Extra High Tension strings. They are harder to play, but there is less chance of having the side effect of pressing the string too hard. (which is sometimes very noticeable and ugly on soft/normal tension strings in some songs...)

[@microtonalguitar]

Glad to hear that it is an ear opener :)

[@Philrc]

" use Extra High Tension strings" it wouldn't and they don't. Highly trained classical guitarists won't press strings too hard. That is eradicated in their training. Part of the technique

[@Zero_thehero]

“Cowboys are the only ones who stay in tune, anyway... “~Hendrix Lol

[@master_ot6004]

Nomlas Salmon The best guitarist ever

[@juliebrammer]

Thank you! I was having trouble with the tuners interpretation of a note, versus my ears😄

[@microtonalguitar]

Cheers :)

[@AlessioPardo]

Great video. It's such an hostile field to discuss but the way you put it, makes it so easy to understand! I personally solve (accomodate) the problem detuning the strings according to the tonality, making a compromise (I think everybody do that, instinctively) or moving the frets on the lute. I am now considering adding these 3 frets on my guitars as well!

[@microtonalguitar]

Yes, please do add! You won't regret it :) Have you watched the organic 7th: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppe0i3dsftCYiMk

[@gewgleformyphone]

Nice work! Those corrected chords sound heavenly. I like what you're doing here, very cool.

[@microtonalguitar]

Thanks a lot. Check the organic 7th: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppe0i3dsftCYiMk

[@runswithbears3517]

You're doing fantastic things for music, helping to make it even better.

[@microtonalguitar]

Thanks a lot!

[@RicksTastyLicks]

This is an excellent demonstration! I've been playing guitar for over 50 years - about 44 of them professionally, and have never heard a guitar sound so perfectly in tune on the first three frets. In Nashville, where I played sessions for 18 years, the common practice is to use capos to maintain the open sound of chords played on the first three frets. But it's never perfect, because of the nature of the twelve tone system. It's close, and there are a lot of alternate ways of tuning (James Taylor offers a rather radical one that works beautifully for him). Of all the capos I used to keep my tuning as perfect as possible, ( I have a box with almost every brand ever made) the one that works better than any other is a G7th Heritage Capo, a relatively recent invention of the last two years, which is by far, the finest capo money can buy. I don't know how the smaller frets would hold up to bends, however. I don't think they would work for anything but strumming or fingerpicking certain open chords, but it's a very cool idea, if only for that purpose . But to utilize them in a professional capacity, they would need to be on the second through the eighth frets, to accommodate people who use capos to perform and record with. Thank you for sharing this, Rick Gordon

[@microtonalguitar]

Thanks a lot! Have you watched the Organic 7th chord: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppe0i3dsftCYiMk

[@oldconspiracydude236]

this is the clearest and easiest to understand of all your videos on this subject - good job . Also would be nice to compare the mathematics of the equal vs. harmonic

[@microtonalguitar]

Thanks! Try the organic 7th: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppe0i3dsftCYiMk

[@johntdavies]

I like this, it's always frustrated me as I can hear the difference, the guitar can never effectively be tuned perfectly, especially if you use harmonics to tune it. I usually compensate by pulling or pushing the string slightly. Surely though your additional frets will only tune the guitar to a particular key, play something in another key and it's all out again. The 12th root of 2 (1.059463), which I remember off by heart sadly, is the best approximation an interval for any key. The harmonic on the 4th fret should be 5 times the frequency or 28 semi-tones but (2^(1/12)^28) or 2^(7/3) is 0.8% out so results in a beat frequency of 3.3Hz which you can clearly hear. Unless your music is written for one key alone you are going to have to either live with the guitar always being slightly out of tune for some notes or use your left fingers to pull or push the note into the right place. This is the same problem for any fixed instrument including a piano. Great work though :-)

[@microtonalguitar]

Thanks. I find more solutions on my adjustable microtonal guitar by having more frets for different keys: kzbin.info/www/bejne/g4qukIN8bryHiKc

[@pamagee2011]

The well-tempered guitar. Man does that A maj chord sound good.

[@danielsgrunge]

This is so interesting Your guitar sounds powerful btw, I like it

[@cacornett58]

Yes, I agree. Sometimes when using my acoustic and only playing cowboy chords on top of the neck, I start by tuning my G string a tad flat, to make the D chord sound in perfect tune, because when fretting the G string, it is sharp......and some people like to tune with harmonics and comparing fretted notes, which gets them in trouble. Sometines they sound right with distortion but when played clean, its out of tune.

[@microtonalguitar]

Have you tried the organic 7th: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppe0i3dsftCYiMk

[@rafaelpernil]

Great video! Very interesting!

[@microtonalguitar]

Thanks!

[@ayberkentermaitmentgames7004]

Tolgahan Çoğulu 884y0 9999999888

[@microtonalguitar]

Hi guys! Have you tried the Renaissance experiment: kzbin.info/www/bejne/epvcf5qwn7Otr68

[@dat_chip]

I once tried writing a song (electronic music) using only natural harmonic overtones - even including the ones that west europeans normally skip. The result is like this: www.robotplanet.dk/files/music/Music_Theory_Experiments/just_intonation01.mp3

[@microtonalguitar]

I love it! Thanks for sharing.

[@dfpguitar]

dat_chip great! I made it my ringtone

[@InADayInALife]

Wow That Is Fantastic!

[@dat_chip]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I guess I should do more experiments like this... :)

[@laughingdaffodils5450]

Hey I really like that any chance of seeing it written out?

[@Penisdoll]

You did really a really good job explaining everything. Thanks!

[@microtonalguitar]

You're welcome. Try this one: kzbin.info/www/bejne/epvcf5qwn7Otr68

[@miketayse]

Nice explanation with the taped on frets! I'm always retuning to switch keys to 'kinda rectify this. For years I've wanted to try one of those guitars with the correct placement.

[@microtonalguitar]

Glad it was helpful!

[@joecaner]

Nicely done. I have always felt that tuning a guitar in standard tuning was always a compromise at best, and I would experiment with different tunings that sounded more melodic together.

[@microtonalguitar]

Try the organic 7th: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppe0i3dsftCYiMk

[@AlexJ4d]

@@microtonalguitar the video is gone 😳 could you please reply with what this tuning is?

[@GB-rb1up]

So all this time I've been playing a not-so-perfect 3rd. :)

[@microtonalguitar]

I am afraid you are right.

[@miguelpow266]

lol

[@eueaviola2469]

Your explanation is very clear, excellent video!

[@microtonalguitar]

Thanks!

[@drozcan]

Gitar çalmayı bilmiyorum fakat böyle bişey duymamıştım daha önce çok hoşuma gitti.

[@GuitarStudent4Life]

You proved your thing man lol your chords sound perfectly tuned...

[@tolgasaglam20]

Tolga bey yıllar önce çalışmalarınızın ilk aşamasını görmüşüm ve hep merak ediyordum ne yaptı diye. Tabi ben sosyal medya kullanmadığım için.... Şimdi sizi bu şekilde başarmış olarak görmek harika... Biliyorum şimdilerde değeriniz anlaşılmasada müzik tarihine damga vuracak siniz

[@microtonalguitar]

Ne güzel bunu duymak

[@martincattell6820]

Very informative and I can hear the difference. I love how enthusiastic you are about getting people to try this that you will give out free small frets at your concerts.

[@microtonalguitar]

Thanks! Worth trying :)

[@tombulTOMBUL]

ilginç ve faydalı bir video. elinize sağlık.

[@microtonalguitar]

Türkçesi de var isterseniz: Majör 3lü problemi

[@nigelhaywood9753]

I love the work you're doing on this. Somehow, with the guitar, the imperfections of equal temperament are more irksome than on instruments like the piano. Also with this research you're offering a possible future safeguard for the lovely and very sophisticated tunings of the Turkish and Arabic traditions.

[@microtonalguitar]

Thanks!

[@wisnumade5239]

Yes... this is the problem on most guitars in the world, i believe in my ears rather than a tunner. Sometimes tunner lie to us when it said the strings are in tuned, i think i need to put some extra frets on my guitars. thank you man! U're answer the mistery! 😊

[@microtonalguitar]

Glad to hear this! Cheers.

[@RhodokTribesman]

It will only fix the notes in a certain key (A in this video) so using when playing other songs, your tune may end up being horrible. This is the reason 12-tone equal temperament is used

[@megelizabeth9492]

That’s the nice thing about movable frets.

[@GitarTurk]

How simple to understand the presentation. You always enlighten us :D Thank you abicim!

[@microtonalguitar]

Thank you Emrecim :)

[@erolgermannemmanuel5637]

Thanks Tologahan for having alerted me on the solution of the problem. Iyi Günler Bey effendi !

[@microtonalguitar]

You're welcome.

[@dmsanct]

Love your lessons. You provide great and clear insight on something that is bound to make a lot of your viewers playing a lot richer. keep it up! And don't mind people saying this is "just stupid" or whatever. Clearly gaining knowledge takes a toll on their lives which they cannot handle. Cheers!

[@microtonalguitar]

Thanks! Check this one: kzbin.info/www/bejne/epvcf5qwn7Otr68

[@tjl8884]

Sounds 100x better.. thanks for this video and info..

[@microtonalguitar]

Glad to hear that! Try the organic 7th: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppe0i3dsftCYiMk

[@thebunker1618]

I will be experimenting with this. Very good instructional video.

[@microtonalguitar]

Nice to hear that.

[@buckleup4568]

Great video! I'll give this a try. Thanks!

[@microtonalguitar]

Glad to hear this. Try the organic 7th: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppe0i3dsftCYiMk

[@SlickD217]

But can it djent???

[@seanthehaggis]

Don toth yes, but you need to play the turd string

[@jgrossma]

If you're djenting, the natural overtones from the distortion create perfect harmonic thirds all by themselves. Voila, you've solved the problem. Is there anything djent CAN'T do?

[@emotown1]

Sound musical?

[@copecetic4144]

damn, you stole my line!!!

[@pogchamp7983]

Animals as Leaders sound pretty musical to me.

[@xiocrafter]

This has answered a question that has plagued me for years. I've turned to tuning my guitar by open strings, without the use of octaves

[@microtonalguitar]

Glad to hear that.

[@Philrc]

It doesn't matter how you tune your guitar you can't tune it to a different temperament unless you can actually alter the Fret distances. That's the basic point

[@kennyraymusic]

Wow. That was very educational! I appreciate that you took the time to explain that so well and demonstrate the difference! 👏👏👏😊

[@microtonalguitar]

Thanks!

[@sweet.dreams]

WOW so thats why i never thought my guitar was in tune, thought i was just lousy at tuning, i was always retuning but seemed to never get it correct - now i play synths so going to apply this to my keyboards - THANKS

[@microtonalguitar]

Nice to hear that! Try the organic 7th: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppe0i3dsftCYiMk

[@joetroutt7425]

No wonder I can't tune my drums to the guitars

[@sourbrothers73]

Wat

[@dodjiegarcia2320]

12 tones equal temperament is more of a convenience thing. Many tried to solve this problem like using true temperament frets. But that also fixes the individual semitones. In order to have perfect intonation in all keys, ideally you need microtonal frets. And if you are more experimental, you can make your own octave system (say have 15 or 16 semitones in an octave).

[@seanolejar3055]

Interesting discussion. This gives me a good explanation for when I tune by ear against certain chords, my B string ends up flat when compare to a tuner. Though as the other comments already mention, it seems to really limit the adaptability to different keys.

[@microtonalguitar]

I agree! Yes, when you tune for a nice G major, the B is flatter!

[@BigCityPalooka]

A wonderful concise presentation. Thank you very much for going to the trouble, it’s much appreciated.

[@microtonalguitar]

Glad to hear that! Try this one: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gWqsiHyMqK6nmKM

[@ashscott6068]

I noticed this a while back. I found a Foo fighters tab book. One of those horribly innaccurate Hal Leonard ones, and noticed that all the open G chords had the thirds muted. I dunno if Dave Grohl actually plays them that way, cus those tab books were awful. But they sounded way better that way to me, so I started looking for the slightly duff notes in other chords, and realised this. Then I read an article about it in a guitar magazine. It makes sense and all, but...everything we think of as "good" now, began as a mistake or a cut corner. Guitar amps were never meant to distort or compress, pinch harmonics were caused by "bad" technique, and what we call "vintage" and drool over, is just the result of cheap parts going bad with age, or circuits that were poorly design ed to start with. Hell, the electric guitar was SUPPOSED to just be an electric guitar! A guitar, only louder! It was supposed to sound like an acoustic. Every great song you ever heard, was played using this "flawed" system, so the same trick has been played on your ears. "Bad" has just become, "The way".

[@Bungerism]

That is right on,Old rocker here.Music nowadays is just muzac.

[@ekshalibur]

omg ur everywhere :D

[@peterwu8471]

Really cool - this natural intonation error has always driven me nuts on fretted instruments - However, this limits your ability to in other keys, right?

[@hungfao]

Very instructive. Thanks, Tolgahan.

[@microtonalguitar]

You're welcome. Check this out: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppe0i3dsftCYiMk

[@EmpyreanLightASMR]

This is fascinating, thank you so much. Wish there were an easy way to adapt a piano for something like this. I suppose you'd have to do the tuning yourself.

[@microtonalguitar]

Geoffrey Smith's Fluid Piano is a great design. Check it out.

[@samuelthorn408]

I could listen to that A major all day.

[@selenophile410]

A m better 😌

[@j_lemy]

My ears are so used to hearing the imperfect open A that this "perfect" one sounds off lol.

[@microtonalguitar]

Once you get used to the lower one, you really search for it.

[@StephenFaulk]

Very nice explanation. Harmonic sympathetic resonance is important in classical music.

[@microtonalguitar]

Thanks.

[@dtsdigitalden5023]

Fascinating stuff, sir. As a violinist (fretless), I truly appreciate your breakdown and explanation.

[@microtonalguitar]

Glad to hear this! Check my violin-guitar recording from ancient times: kzbin.info/www/bejne/op2yqKWeit13oa8

[@SpiritDrive]

Great video!!! I teach my students about equal temperament and how that is in essence out of tune. I'm going to have them watch your video too!!

[@microtonalguitar]

Thanks! Glad to hear that.

[@microtonalguitar]

Hi guys! Have you tried the Renaissance experiment: kzbin.info/www/bejne/epvcf5qwn7Otr68

[@noahharris9192]

Let's just take a second to appreciate that we are arguing over equal and just temperament lol

[@sourbrothers73]

Who's arguing?

[@johnkerley4152]

That explains why a lot of times I seemed to have to compromise when tunimg a guitar by a tuner and then by ear as far as making all the chords sound right.

[@microtonalguitar]

exactly.

[@fingerhorn4]

In equal temperament, major thirds have to be slightly sharp, and perfect fifths very slightly flat. On a piano we get used to hearing this and the natural tendency of pianos to have rich overtones somewhat covers this up, though you can hear the "beats" very clearly. On a guitar, sharpened major thirds are much more obvious. You have two choices, for example playing an e shape major chord. You can slightly flatten off the open g string (often used for the major third in E shaped chords), then the stopped major third will sound less sharp, but now you will have to slightly bend the g string upwards to make fifths in tune. It affects the g string more than others because firstly the g string is the most prone to sharpness due to it being slacker and thicker (on classical guitars) and secondly because when used as a major third to a chord it nearly always gets exposed as very sharp. The other method is to install a compensating nut. In the end there is not much you can do. Guitars are never completely in tune so everything is a compromise.

[@wesmatron]

It's not a problem because Hendrix.

[@RupeeRhod]

And often also the inquiry.

But you're not hendrix so that is the problem.

[@wakeupmofoers691]

its not a problem because diatonic's

[@irishRocker1]

Haha there is a famous story from when Hendrix came on the scene. Eric Clapton was the guitar god at the time but Hendrix was new challenging him for that title. Clapton was sometimes frustrated by how good Hendrix was and insecure and at one point was watching Jimi perform, and at the end of the song, he arpeggiated the chord, to sneakily check his tuning. Clapton was like "he's out of tune! what's he gonna do now?! he's out of tune!" and BOOM, Hendrix just went on into the next song and not a f**k was given! haha. Great story. I think it was from a classic albums episode.

[@bokenovskyjones]

"Only cowboys stay in tune anyway" - Jimi Hendrix I've noticed when playing Hendrix style stuff with a lot of movement and simplified chords, there's a lot of leeway with being in tune. The leads you don't even have to be close, haha

[@egedanr7608]

Nice work, sir! Ingilizceden anladım Türk olduğunuzu.

[@petewiseman]

Interesting, and well done. But I'll stick to slightly bending notes (horizontally) - and I think your video will help me remember to aim at major thirds.

[@endima6204]

very clever, very useful, thank you!

[@milesIronwood93]

My whole life has been a lie

[@peterbayjespersen9410]

The Equal Temperament' system IS a distortion, but it allows different instruments to be played together, where the natural tones and harmonics would give that awful 'out of tune' sound when different instruments are played together. The 'Equal Temperament' system is a compromise, and like all compromises, has good things and not-so-good things.

[@microtonalguitar]

I totally agree. Have you tried the organic 7th: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppe0i3dsftCYiMk

[@cangjie12]

Equal temperament is not necessary for instruments to play together. You just need to re-adjust the frets for different keys. It takes time but it is possible, and in my opinion worth it. Perhaps you could have three or four guitars, each optimized for a certain range of keys. Re-adjusting frets is what viol (not violin) players did in earlier times, when they had moveable frets made of gut that were manually tied on to their instruments.

[@Gelato556]

Awesome video! By lowering your maj. thirds are you putting the guitar in meantone tuning without downtuning the fifths?

[@microtonalguitar]

Thanks! We can say you have just thirds with the equal tempered fifths.

[@5Bird5]

Great tutorial and something that I will try. How do you think the compensated nut compares to your method? Also, where can I get the mini frets in the UK?

[@microtonalguitar]

I think the compensated nut doesn't solve the natural thirds. You can order frets from John Schneider's www.fretlet.com Also check this one: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppe0i3dsftCYiMk

[@vascodegama5829]

Mind Blown!

[@microtonalguitar]

Thanks! Try this one: kzbin.info/www/bejne/epvcf5qwn7Otr68

[@RamessesIX]

If you have control over the set list, this approach is amazingly rich. As I listen to the simplest chords in natural harmonic, hidden melodies seem to want to float to the surface. It is a very deep undertaking, and I could understand why a Sufi group would want to explore this, extensively. Equal temperament is a convenience that allows a lot of different musicians and instruments to interact productively. But, this approach seems extremely fertile with natural musical forms that remain hidden to the conventional approach in place. This is full of extremely sophisticated possibilities, as it makes new pure patterns accessible. It isn't a solution, it is an amazingly dynamic option full of intricacies. It is actually not very intelligent to marginalize such an amazing option, just because it doesn't suit everyone's needs.

[@microtonalguitar]

Thanks for your comment! I agree with you. Try the organic 7th: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppe0i3dsftCYiMk

[@CharmedQuarkSystems]

It's more complex than that though. You'd have to also never have a key change, or limit your key changes to very specific ones that aren't likely to just happen to fit the song. That was the whole point (or one of the major points) of equal temperament, that you aren't limited to a single key, or very closely related keys in a single tune. Even fairly simple pop tunes often have a number of key changes in them. Everyone would have to do a very fast instrument change or something.

[@RamessesIX]

CharmedQuarkSystems I notice that some guitarists seem to make use of Sufi modalities, and though their prog band mates and they do not confine themselves to one key signature during a rock sonata, they seem to have brought compositional inspiration from the kinds of riffs and progressions that emerge from exploring these types of patterns. George Harrison used modified ancient forms without being confined by them, for example. But, this approach reminds me of some unusual tunes used by Hackett and Howe. It is a source of strange tunes, not a dead end.

[@CharmedQuarkSystems]

You can of course move between closely related keys without any issues. You could also purposefully avoid certain not combinations in some of the keys you modulate to potentially. But, on the whole, it wouldn't be very practical for the average cover band who has to play in any keys that the songs are in. These days some folks may use electronically tuned guitars to change the tuning on the fly. I noticed the guy from 12 Foot Ninja was doing this. I would never give up the analog guitar, but that's one way to do it live without instrument changes.

[@microtonalguitar]

On my adjustable microtonal guitar, i can modulate between keys in just intonation: kzbin.info/www/bejne/g4qukIN8bryHiKc

[@earfulaudio5199]

Thank you for referring me to this informationTolgahan. Very interesting. The difference with the added frets is huge. Thank you for posting.

[@microtonalguitar]

Glad to hear that. Try the organic 7th: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppe0i3dsftCYiMk

[@Sergio_Math]

What an eye opener Tolgahan! Thank you!

[@microtonalguitar]

Thanks Sergio! kzbin.info/www/bejne/eXXVZ6Wbm7ianZI