Unnecessary Changes to The Return of the King that Created Major Plot Holes

[@oliveremmettknox7776]

Be grateful, Tolkien Lore, that Peter Jackson wisely did not have Aragorn fight Sauron at the Black Gate in the final cuts of The Return of the King movie.

[@patrickbliss9264]

Wasn't that in the book? I don't know as I haven't finished the books yet.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

No, it wasn’t, but PJ shot footage for such a scene and then instead did a CGI troll.

[@KevDaly]

I liked the Return of the King least of the movies. It suffered from the accumulation of plot changes in the earlier films and then added new ones. And there were many tonal missteps (including Aragorn's thuggish behaviour towards tThe Mouth of Sauron, an envoy in parley whatever we think of him). And the scene where Aragorn matches wills with Sauron is botched - it loses its context as Aragorn spooking Sauron into striking before he's ready, and instead Aragorn himself is spooked and appears to drop and break the Elfstone, whihc is idiocy), And they absolutely screwed The Paths of the Dead. And reduced Éomer to little more than a spear carrier, taking his best lines out of context and giving them to Théoden. Gandalf's command at the climactic apocalyptic moment "'Stand, Men of the West! Stand and wait! This is the hour of doom" is skipped, with the first phrase taken out of context and put in Aragorn's mouth as a pep talk. And of course we missed the haunting passing of Sauron (replaced by the fall of the Humpty Dumpty Eye). And let's not talk about what they did to Denethor.

[@danguillou713]

What I like least is the changes to Denethor. In the books he is a really cool and impressive guy, who crumbles under the weight of a job that is too much for him. It’s a tragic face-heel-turn. In the films he’s a petty and somewhat sadistic idiot from the start. So when he finally breaks and try to commit a murder-suicide with Faramir it completely lacks dramatic weight, because he was always a bad guy. PJ doesn’t even let him do the burning to death with a degree of dignity. I really think that PJ is sacrificing his entire character arc because he wants more dramatic conflict in a few moments along the way. This also turns Pippins decision to swear loyalty to Denethor into a sad joke: why would he feel moved to do that with the guy we see in the movie? It doesn’t make any sense.

[@stevenlowe3026]

Agreed - Denethor is a great and tragic figure - in my view he's up there with Oedipus and King Lear and Othello - each of them great figures destroyed by their own character flaws. Well, Oedipus basically out of ignorance and the ill-will of the gods, but Othello it's jealousy and with Lear I suppose you'd say it was pride. Denethor also suffers from pride (unlike anybody before him he believes himself capable of battling Sauron through the Palantir - then despair - he loses his wife and son, and faces what appears to be inevitable defeat (deceived by Sauron's lies through the Palantir) and is overthrown by despair. Jackson made him into a cardboard cut-out villain.

[@harveyhhamish8624]

Yes.... he was neither crass nor stupid....felt the movie fell a bit short there.

[@Nebula_Ultra]

my wife doesnt understan lotr. she thinks its just a book series. lol. i try to explain that its something you study and learn about. its not just a story to be read.

[@somethingfromnothing8428]

My wife kind of thinks the same. She doesnt understand how i can watch the movies or books repeatedly and never get bored. Im listening to the audio books for probably the 5th or 6th time and still noticing things in the story i missed on previous listenings/readings. Its not a story you can completely understand from one watching or reading because theres so many subtle things that are easy to miss

[@Celtic1020]

I believe the implication is that elvish wine is magnitudes stronger so Legolas doesn’t get drunk from standard beer/mead/wine. At least in the movies.

[@ProtomanButCallMeBlues]

The Wooland elves don't make their own wine. They get their wine from Men who basically specialize in making wine for Elves. The barrels you see flowing down the river wasn't an accident. That's how they return the barrels.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Actually the wine is from Dorwinion. We don’t really know much about that but it’s not the same as Laketown.

[@wolverinefangowings]

I've been binging this channel since discovering it a few days ago. Great stuff. What are your thoughts on the Bashki film? Do you plan to do a video on it?

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Yes, but I haven’t seen it in ages and need to get a copy to watch it again. I do remember that it was a lot more faithful in at least some ways, and ways I consider important.

[@joejoelesh1197]

@07:29 And everyone knows that Gimli would drink a beardless elf under the table any day

[@98ILoveTheBeatles98]

Is it possible Eowyn was just filled with adrenaline while she was fighting?

[@arikgershon]

Another problem with the lighting of the beacons is how some of the beacons are really high up in the mountains. It looks nice with the New Zealand countryside, but it just doesn't make sense. Some of those beacons appear to be above the lower cloud level, which means the people living there would have to constantly live with extreme cold and oxygen deficiency. They likely don't have modern cold weather gear either. You'd also have to have professional mountain climbers going up and down on a regular basis for food and water, all of which would get frozen quickly. The whole thing seems extremely infeasible. In the book, on the other hand, the beacons are described as being located on foothills rather than on the mountains themselves.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

You're acting like only modern people could do this. That's simply not true.

[@erickpoorbaugh6728]

Why would you have the beacons on the peaks instead of the foothills anyway? Aside from the logistical issues, the fire wouldn't burn as well with less oxygen and it would be further away and thus harder to see, plus there would be a risk of low clouds hiding the peaks---and thus the beacons---from the land below.

[@r0bw00d]

My interpretation of what happened with Faramir and the battle at Osgiliath has to do with an exchange that took place in _The Two Towers._ You'll remember that someone went to Faramir and told him that if he let the One Ring go instead of delivering it to his father, then his life would be forfeit, to which her replied, "Then it is forfeit." Then, with Denathor in _The Return of the King,_ we see it play out by him sending his son to his death.

[@DirtySouthJR]

ON POINT. I had forgotten that most obvious connection. Makes things even more concise.

[@SkywalkerSamadhi]

There's something else in the movies that has always bothered the flubbers out of me. We have a couple scenes where Gandalf and Aragorn are talking about Frodo. The first is in TTT right after Gandalf has come back and they are heading to Edoras. Him and Aragorn are standing in the dark gazing into the West, and Gandalf tells Aragorn not to doubt his decision let Frodo go because this is something that he must do alone. Aragorn tells Gandalf that Frodo isn't alone.. that Sam went with him. And Gandalf is obviously very happy about that, but it's also pretty obvious that he did not know about it at all. Second thing is after the Battle of Helms Deep when Aragorn and Gandalf are talking again and Aragorn says something like everyday Frodo gets closer to Mordor, and Gandalf is all like 'do we really know that?' Aragorn asks The Wizard what his heart told him and Gandalf says, 'yes. Yes he's still alive.' But again he didn't know. Then we come to ROTK after the attack of Minas Tirith and Gandalf suddenly says that "Frodo has passed beyond my sight." WTF are you talking about dude? He's been saying since he came back as Gandalf the White that he couldn't see where Frodo was. He didn't even know Sam went with him until Aragorn told him. I HATE that line. Pisses me off everytime I see it.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

I see this criticism a lot. Nothing about the language used in that sentence explicitly means that he's saying it's only just now that Frodo has passed beyond his sight. That's just the way he voices it for everyone in the room so they stop looking to him for information on Frodo.

[@SkywalkerSamadhi]

@@Richard_Nickerson yeah that would make sense. It's only a small detail that irks me a bit when I see it.. and it's in a movie that I think did a remarkable job making a film out of a story a lot of people thought was unfilmable.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

@@SkywalkerSamadhi Well, if you look at it my way then it will no longer be irksome. He's not stating it as a sudden and new thing, he's reiterating something he's been saying for a while in a way to state finality.

[@darkthorpocomicknight7891]

@@SkywalkerSamadhi One word: BIBLE In the books the Biblical symbolism is easier to catch. Jackson basically got rid of it so its all feels contrived. But again in the Bible the parallels are obvious so many things happen because God wills it In the films it feels like just dumb luck.

[@SkywalkerSamadhi]

@@darkthorpocomicknight7891 what is this Bible your talking about? Is that a new IP or something? I’ve never heard of that one? Is it something new? Yet another fantasy aimed at teenagers? Cause personally I’m getting a little tired of those.

[@Janon48]

For some reason I always took it as Legolas taking the piss and basically hustling them and a combination of Elves having a different metabolism than Dwarves and Humans

[@SovereignStatesman]

Okay, you're missing the CENTRAL PLOT-POINT: At the Council of Elrond, Gandalf says that they will pretend to use the Ring, because that's what Sauron would do-- rather than destroy it. And when Aragorn looked into the Palantir in Rohan, after Pippin did, Sauron believed that Pippin was the Ring-bearer captured by Saruman, and that Aragorn had captured the Palantir and the Ring from Saruman. Meanwhile there were not just 10,000 orcs in Mordor; but 250,000 MEN, who would not only make it impossible for Frodo to get to Mt. Doom, but also would completely wipe out Gondor and everyone else who stood against them. So by marching up to the Black Gate, Sauron thought Gandalf or Aragorn had the Ring, and were over-confident in its power; and so he threw every last man, orc and troll at them in order to take the Ring BACK. In the movie, they couldn't even USE the Ring, so Sauron completely FORGETS about the Ring; the last mention is Merry telling Pippin that Sauron thinks he has the Ring, because he looked into the Palantir (which isn't explained), and will be looking for Pippin, so Gandalf takes him to Minas Tirith to be safe from Sauron's spies. And this completely destroys the original plot, because the moral was that they COULD use the Ring; but would be corrupted by it.... as shown when Frodo becomes corrupted by he Ring after he uses it on Gollum.

[@phoule76]

perhaps since Legolas isn't technically a Wood Elf, since Thranduil isn't, so he isn't susceptible to alcohol poisoning (but yes, that should've been explained better in the movie, even if it was just a throwaway comic relief scene).

[@DarkIFaith]

1. Saruman clearly means to be at least a powerful ally of Sauron and a Lord in his new world. With his defeat, he would become just another slave. Also with Saruman ordering his Uruk hai to bring the Ring to HIM you can infer he’s not completely loyal to Sauron. At this point Saruman is completely defeated and humiliated and Gandalf the paragon of Mercy wants to give Saruman a chance at redemption by helping them. 2. Sure it’s obvious Sauron was going to strike at Gondor but since Sarumans defeat at helms deep, maybe he would go after Rohan and also he doesn’t know which part of Gondor and Saruman mentions how Sauron has seen something they failed to and even now presses his advantage so Gandalf learns Sauron has a secret master plan which we later learned is the corruption and madness of Denethor that leaves Minas Tirith vulnerable as it wouldn’t hAve been before. It wasn’t an obvious target until we find out Denethor is not preparing the defenses. 4. Gandalf probably knows from the prophecy that Arwen and then Legolas refers to about Aragorn and the path of the dead but not until learning Saurons plan to ambush Minas Tirith did the pieces come into place. He knew Sauron had mercenaries from the coast but not where they would strike until Pippin saw it. 5. Osgilith is a suicide attack in the movie. It’s not a plot hole so much as character assassination of Denethor. Same for not lighting the beacons. I get the impression Merry is shocked by the Palantir too even though he’s further away he still sees it. 6. Frodo is being corrupted by the Ring and so is Sam and Frodo sees this. Ultimately Frodo sends Sam home to protect him. The lembas bread thing was just an excuse. Gollum is already corrupted by the Ring but Frodo needs him to lead the way into Mordor and of course wants to redeem him. 7. Sam finds the lembas bread that Gollum dropped and brings it back to Frodo so they had the rest of that to last them into Mordor. 8. It took time for the Nazguls spell to take full effect? 9. As Gandalf says Frodo’s quest never had any hope, just a fools hope. Remember Gandalf in the movie never wanted Frodo to have to take the Ring. Also I think Sarumans words to Gandalf at the beginning really strike the despair into him.

[@darkthorpocomicknight7891]

Gandalf assumes Frodo is MEANT to be the ringbearer - Jackson eliminated plot elements to raise tension but makes Gandalf either 1. An idiot taking stupid pills 2. Or insanely a risk-taking pro-war fighter Either way he's a weirdo PS gandalf being so war-centric undercuts Jackson's OWN anti-war message btw

[@DirtySouthJR]

1. Galdalf isn't "clueless" about Sauron attacking Gondor. He is seeking any info he can get. He knows Gondor is under threat but he wants confirmation. What else? Being in the enemies camp would provide much more actionable Intel. Sauron could he planning something else after all. He wants exact info. When, where, how, anything and everything. Also, he is clearly giving his brethren a chance to repent and atone for his betrayal. 2. People don't like how Denethor was changed for the movie but it makes for a strong character and some of the most emotionally charged scenes of the trilogy. It's good for the MOVIE. The steward has gone totally mad. "Abandon your posts! Flee, flee for your lives!" That's great stuff man. 3. I always HATED the invicible ghost army! Seemed like a blatant cheat code by our heroes. It's good to learn that in the books the ghost army couldn't actually interact with/harm living things. All they did was frighten the dudes with the ships away which Aragorn commandeered. That is so much better than having them be a magical army more powerful than anything the Dark Lord could ever hope to command. Basically an army of Nazgul.

[@wetmink]

The wine the Elves drank in The Hobbit was particularly potent and could make even the strongest drinkers sleepy.

[@BlankEmporium]

Now I have the image of Legolas chugging moonshine with his elven bros every weekend.

[@danicecreager951]

Why didn't the lembas bread burn Gollum at touch. And when Sam came back, why didn't he ask where Gollum had gone??? This is my biggest complaint, next to Frodo sending Sam away. (I have just discovered your site---thank you so much !!!)

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Why would the lembas burn him?

[@danicecreager951]

@@TolkienLorePodcast The elvish rope burned him, and he spit out the lembas the first time it was offered to him.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

It didn’t literally burn him though, and one is food while the other is a rope. I wouldn’t expect the same kind of effect.

[@danicecreager951]

@@TolkienLorePodcast Thank you for your replies :-)

[@rmsgrey]

In the book, the lembas bread tasted of dust and ashes to Gollum, though Frodo opines that it would nourish him if he could eat it.

[@matthewgelles4687]

Really enjoy your videos and your channel. Your comments about the Elves drinking wine in the the Hobbit caused a thought to cross my mind. Were there "rank and file" or "blue collar" Elves? Mostly, we only see the top tier of the social order of Elves, such as it is. Elrond, Galadriel, Legolas (an Elf prince). The vast majority of Elves had to be the ones actually doing all the work. Does Tolkien ever mention a social order or class system within Elvish society?

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Not to my knowledge, but you get the idea that even the lowest class of elves is in a way better state than lower class men lol.

[@matthewgelles4687]

@@TolkienLorePodcast LOL. Thanks and I agree...being an Elf seems like a pretty sweet life.

[@anarionelendili8961]

@@TolkienLorePodcast Tolkien does at least heavily imply that the Elves have enough magic that they can basically not worry about the growing/gathering of food, which there will be plenty. And thus they have most of their lives for their 'hobbies', whatever they may be. So you have craftsman elves because they like making things, rather than them having to make things to earn their food, like humans do. While there are certainly elves of different status, even the lowliest elves would be more akin to 'trust fund kids' as far as having to worry about their daily bread, and hence can use their time singing and dancing and frolicking if they so choose.

[@rmsgrey]

The main distinction among elves in the legendarium is between those who made it to Valinor then came back, those who set out to go, but then settled down with Melian instead, and those who never planned to go, but ended up drifting westward anyway.

[@darkthorpocomicknight7891]

@@anarionelendili8961 I believe the "rings" essentially maintain them (the elves) so when the rings go they must fade that is the books. In the films it more murky PS the elf rings ARE THE MOST powerful hence why Elrond ages so gracefully, Gal is so insanely powerful, etc. Only the ONE RING is more powerful canonically

[@DeanKubasek]

For the drinking game part. I'd like to think the woodland elves in the hobbit are drinking a substantially higher alcohol content type of elf wine, rather than the regular beer they were drinking in the game but that's just my take on it.

[@davidhunter1282]

It seems that you forgot about the Falls of Rauros. No ship can sail very much farther North than Gondor because of the Falls. So the Black Ships attacking Lorien, or the Woodmen of the North, or the Woodland Elves is right out. So that leaves . . . Gondor. It wouldn't take Gandalf very long to figure that out.

[@Bryan198026]

I definitely agree that Frodo sending Sam away was complete and total bullshit. As for Gollum stealing the Lembas and then trying to make it look as though Sam had done it, that might actually not have been out of character for him to do, so, even though it wasn’t actually in the books, that part, I have less of an objection to because it’s something that I could have imagined him doing. What I did have a problem with was Frodo, believing that Sam had stolen it, because again, that would’ve been out of character for Frodo.

[@geoffreyharmon5065]

My biggest issue with the whole film series wasn't mentioned. In the council after the seige of Minas Tirith they mention the 10,000 orcs and basically act as if Sauron is defeated, or at least heavily wounded, and unfortunately Frodo has been sent to die so therefore lets try to help Frodo out by sacrificing almost our entire army at the black gate. In the book this is not so, Gondor got lucky and Sauron sent a relatively small force to take Minas Tirith. They discuss this in the council and how Sauron will surely send a much larger force soon. In the book their only hope to defeating Sauron is to destroy the ring, Frodo is their only hope. That is why Gondor is willing to March to their deaths at the black gate, because they hope through some miracle it will distract Sauron and give Frodo a chance.

[@mayalackman7581]

Um I don't see your interpretation of the film at all lol

[@darkthorpocomicknight7891]

Your summary of the book is impressive and from my own reading very accurate - in the books its a risky distraction in the films (and I admit I am not a fan) the scale of forces IS IMPLIED visually In the books Sauron does seem to communicate - him having a body is vague - but Jackson did not make it more specific I guess to keep the mystery of Sauron. But Sauron does issue commands doesn't he? I remember the Nazgul WERE GIVEN SPECIFIC instructions at various points in the sotry.

[@namechange94]

maybe the dwarfs got drunk on beer, and the elves got drunk on an entire keg of moonshine.

[@mariyontil]

In all fairness, the book does say, "It must be potent wine to make a wood-elf drowsy; but this wine, it would seem, was the heady vintage of the great gardens of Dorwinion, not meant for his soldiers or his servants, but for the king's feasts only, and for smaller bowls not for the butler's great flagons." Legolas was *slightly* affected there. Any plans on doing The Hobbit? It might be interesting to sort out which of the unnecessary additions actually caused plot holes within themselves.

[@johndeeter4030]

YESS My Precious..YOU Shall NOT be Silenced... The Spell of MUTE has been broken...lol

[@TheDarthbinky]

A little devil's advocate on the point about Gandalf knowing where Sauron was going to attack- yes, Gondor is a *huge* thorn in Sauron's side and a likely target for his wrath... but there actually are other valid targets. Erebor and Dale are both thriving at the time after the events of The Hobbit, and as you are no doubt aware, the appendices to the books mention that Sauron did in fact send some forces to attack there and the initial battle went so badly that the people of Dale wound up taking shelter in Erebor. Sauron also (unsuccessfully) attacked Galadriel and Celeborn's realm in Lothlorien, and Thranduil's realm in Mirkwood, all in an attempt to attack his most hated enemy, Elrond and Rivendell. So yes, Gandalf clearly knew that there was an attack coming to Gondor, but he didn't know where the *primary* attack was going to happen.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Yeah, but the movie never even references Dale and Erebor, only mentions Mirkwood as where Legolas is from, and if Lothlorien were under threat it seems really strange that Galadriel would send a bunch of warriors to Helm’s Deep. Plus Boromir makes it clear in the Council of Elrond (and Denethor in Faramir’s Two Towers flashback) that Gondor is taking the brunt of Sauron’s attack. Literally everything in the context of the movie has been pointing to Gondor from the start.

[@TheDarthbinky]

True, the movies never mention those things but now with the hindsight of the Hobbit trilogy, we know that Erebor and Dale and Mirkwood exist as possible counters to Sauron. We do also know that Rivendell is a major threat to Sauron- in Fellowship, Elrond mentions that the Eye is "fixed on Rivendell". Since the movies play pretty fast and loose with time and travel distances, an attack there or even at Rohan is also possible. But I do agree, all evidence presented in the movies does indicate that Gondor's going to get the hammer. Like I said, I'm just doing some devil's advocacy here. :-)

[@anarionelendili8961]

@@TolkienLorePodcast Agreed, there is absolutely no reason why Sauron would attack anywhere else than Gondor. Also, the Corsair fleet can't sail up the Falls of Rauros for sure, so they are not going to be attacking all the way upriver, either. Technically they could sail to the mouth of Isen and attack Rohan from the west (I think there is a reference to that in the tale of the years) or try sail up the Entwash to attack Rohan in the east, but sailors on dry, flat plains of Rohan vs. Rohirrim cavalry? Good luck, mates! Not to mention that Saruman was supposed to destroy Rohan as a threat anyway.

[@SkywalkerSamadhi]

Yet another thing Peter Jackson did that makes no sense AT ALL and drives me crazy.. When the Rohhirim charge Saurons army on the Pelanor Fields they try and pull the same trick they did at Helms Deep by having the sun come up behind Theoden and his army.. they swell the music up and show us the super pissed faces of the Men and the scared to death faces of the Orcs.. but it's really stupid because Rohan is West of Gondor. The Rohhirim were coming in from the West, the Sun rises in the East. It should be in front of them, not behind. I like Peter Jacksons LOTR movies a lot!! Overall they were an amazing interpretation that was way better than I personally thought we would ever get. But a few of these little things drive me nuts. The stuff they changed for seemingly no reason.. no good reason anyway..

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

That’s not a rising sun so much as a sun revealed by the clouds though.

[@chrisrubin6445]

yeah, Rohan is west of Gondor, but wouldnt they have to go around the mountains to reach Minas Tirith? in that case it would make sense for the last few miles of their journey to be heading west, after travelling so far east and south to get around the mountains already?

[@lionlord8784]

To the drinking contest between Legolas and Gimli in the RotK. The Elfs in the Hobbit 2 get drunk from wine, somewhat speciel wine. Wine is for the Elfs, but Beer is for the dwars. Maybe Elf´s like Legolas hasn´t never-ever drink Beer, maybe just wine. To the Pippins pick up the palantir. I thought that everyone sees that the whole process with Pippin+palantir happend in just a few seconds. To Denethors totaly unlogical actions: Denethor´s mind is portrayed in the movies like corupted more and more by the evil forces. You ask HOW?Good question. I ask now, it is true or isn´t it true that Denethor had earlier access to some palantir like seeing-stone? .) Coruption of Denethor through some seeing-stone that are controled too by some evil. I heard about this possibility earlier. To Eowyn's illogical suddenly fall of her strength on the movie: Maybe she was able to do what she did after destroying the Witch King because of Adrenalin? :D Maybe thats the reason in the movie.

[@klutttmuttsprutt6087]

Running out of thumbs here! ☺

[@canonwright8397]

I really missed Elladan and Elrohir in the Return of the King and really wished they would have found time to put them in.

[@aleisterbroley900]

They screwed up the whole Paths of the Dead/ Army of the Dead thing so badly that I want to cry every time I watch it.

[@SpiritofFeanor]

@@aleisterbroley900 Exactly, there was basically no reason that couldn't have been done better biggest let down

[@Daggerfall40]

Agreed. No Halbarad and the Grey Company, no Prince Imrahil. Its hard for me to enjoy the RotK film after knowing how much better The War of the Ring was in the book.

[@erickpoorbaugh6728]

But they had time for a pointless subplot of Frodo idiotically trusting Gollum over Sam. There’s a reason why people who’ve only seen the movies often dislike Frodo.

[@Jacob-qz9fo]

Maybe legolas is different because he's royalty? In Starcraft terminology, he's a hero unit.

[@AttyDouro22]

I like the channel!

[@Richard_Nickerson]

9:45 What, you've never heard of shock or panic?

[@edwardlecore141]

There comes a time in your life when you have to decide, are you a CANdalf or a CAN'Tdalf?

[@somethingfromnothing8428]

I dont understand the whole thing of gandalf not knowing wheres going to be attacked. Minas tirith is clearly next because its right next to mordor. They would have to march their armies right past minas tirith to get to anywhere else other than erebor.

[@thomasmills339]

I believe Peter Jackson ruined LOTR. Forever.. I don't think there's a chance it can ever be done again for the screen. Maybe in 40 years as a TV series but I doubt it.. what is astonishing to me is that people actually think these movies are at all good. They are bloodless children's movies. They are Harry Potter.. horrible CGI is the biggest problem. He should have waited until the tech caught up...two of the most insulting things are 1- Aragorn " dwarf -tossing Gimli at Helm's Deep 2- Legolas surfing down a stairway on a shield while shooting arrows and that whole war elephant scene.. it is infuriating.

[@loonowolf2160]

Bruh bruh BRUH. Wtf u mean ruined Lotr forever? U can't even write correctly! Do u under BOOJD can't be recreated page by page into the movie 100%? No. An u say THAT while there the garbage from amazon, if I next to u I would say think twice and understand he did his best to make the movies, that could end up 6 h long with many thinks that have f* to do with main story at all.

[@loonowolf2160]

Ah ok CGI is bad... BRUH u are like 14 that enjoy only marvel stuff, and bad cgi of lotr abd top bruh bruh U honestly said a lot of BS, CGI is GREAT why tf he should wait 3 years? Plus if each movie took 3 year to cone out it would have been brutal, u honestly said the worst review I ever seen

[@trailmixgang]

Does he like "The Lord of the Rings," movies?

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

He who?

[@Richard_Nickerson]

21:30 Truly disingenuous. She doesn't get up, run around, and fight more. She crawls around and is saved by Aragorn. She's clearly weak and in pain when she talks to Théoden, and we have no idea how long it's been between then and when Éomer finds her. And even 5 minutes could be long enough to an injured and exhausted person, who's also affected by the black breath as you point out, to pass out.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

The black breath isn’t a thing in the movie though, nor is she obviously “weak” in the movie, just wounded. In fact she never appears in any danger of passing out or anything else.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

@@TolkienLorePodcast 1. It's not explicitly stated to be a thing, but the Nazgûl ARE explicitly shown to have a physical and psychological effect on people, even from a great distance. It doesn't take much to realize that being face-to-face with one and stabbing it in the face would have an effect on someone. 2. Hard disagree that she's not shown to be weakened, but even if you really refuse to concede that point, then stop being so foolish as to imply that serious injuries like a shattered arm wouldn't affect someone. We don't need to be explicitly told how much damage her arm took, we witnessed the unrealistically large and heavy flail make direct impact so intensely that it shattered her shield and knocked her down. Talk about someone shutting their brain off...

[@Richard_Nickerson]

@@TolkienLorePodcast Also, you still have to admit that she objectively did NOT get back on her feet and run around looking for a sword to keep fighting. She's clearly crawling, clearly injured, clearly having a hard time. You really cannot say she was fine by any means. My initial statement stands: truly disingenuous. You're misrepresenting the scene.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

There’s no reason to think that just because they cause fear (not the same as the black breath anyway) means that being up close would be worse. Heck we’ve already seen the hobbits get just as close with no long term effects, and Merry doesn’t even get the reaction in the movie that he does in the book for stabbing the Witch King in the back of the knee, so no, that logic doesn’t work. As for Eowyn being weak, she’s pulling herself around with her good arm after the other gets broken, preparing to fight the ugly orc captain. That’s hardly the actions of someone succumbing to the black breath before our eyes.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

@@TolkienLorePodcast Using the Hobbits is a bad example because the whole point is that they're hardier than anyone else in these situations, and it obviously DID have a much more direct and serious impact on Merry anyway... terrible defense. I agree that Merry shouldn't be fine enough to participate in the Black Gate, but watch those scenes again: Merry is clearly injured when he stabs him, and he's clearly in pain and barely conscious when Pippin finds him. You're either not as familiar with the movies as you think, or you're just really disingenuous. You're too set on your point and refuse to concede anything. Even the things you've clearly conceded by completely dropping them or never responding to them are merely completely dropped rather than addressed. It's ok to be wrong. What's not ok is doubling down on it so much. Edit: And just like you seem to forget that shock or panic exists when criticizing Merry watching Pippin and the Palantír, you're ignoring the reality of her situation. She's literally in a life or death situation, her adrenaline would be pushing her to keep herself alive. Once she's safe and has settled into place next to Théoden, it's perfectly reasonable AND REALISTIC for her to only then finally succumb to her wounds and the situation. Again, completely disingenuous of you. At the very least, completely lacking total awareness of the situation and definitely not applying real world logic. I know it's a fantasy story, but it's a realistic one.

[@bendream544]

I'm a bit late to your channel but I'd just like to say that as far as comparisons between the novel and the movie, apart from some okay cinematography and effects, Peter Jackson and his wife and co-writer did a brilliant job of destroying what I think is one of the best(if not THE best) works of fiction that can be read. I actually tried watching the Fellowship at the cinema 3 times and had to get up and leave 3 times, the first time I didn't even get past the introduction! Just like the Rings of Power tv series I don't understand how, given that the best story of all time is already there for you, why do they always screw the thing up. Even if they had decided to make 4 movies to keep it as true to the novel as possible then that is the approach they should have taken instead of chopping and changing things to the point of an unrecognisable mess that becomes barely watchable. Anyway Namarië for now. I forgot to say the less said about the Hobbit movies the better, they even managed to stick my least favourite Dr.Who in them. Grrrrrrr.

[@Arcessitor]

You realize the Hobbit movies were made after LotR, right? And that Jackson never planned on doing them? Yeah, your criticism of the drinking game is dumb. Also, plenty of other explanations. Might just be Legolas has insane tolerance.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

You realize the same information is in the written Hobbit which came almost 80 years prior, right?

[@loonowolf2160]

​@TolkienLorePodcast and do u realise and know that the guy that was working on the hobbit trilogy left half way of the project, and they called PJ to do it, bc everyone job was at risk, million of money already invested on the project. So yeah what u would in such scenario uh? Knowing there a lot at stake and risk too, and everyone is at risk to lose their jobs. And unlike with the first masterpiece of trilogy that he did with a lot of time, years too, he didn't had that amount time with this trilogy

[@kuribo04]

plotholes don't really matter Film is amazing

[@sheoofisles1573]

those movie haters...