Unnecessary Changes to The Two Towers that Created Plot Holes

This is my second video on plot changes introduced by Peter Jackson that resulted in contradictions, plot holes, and other major problems.
For my first video on The Fellowship of the Ring, go here: • Unnecessary Changes to...
For my takedown of CinemaSins' Everything Wrong with The Two Towers, see here: • Debunking CinemaSins "...
And the final video on The Return of the King is here: www.youtube.co...
And here's my video on the history of Rohan: • Middle Earth History: ...
Intro and outro music from "The King of the Golden Hall," Lord of the Rings Trilogy Soundtrack, copyright New Line Productions and Reprise Records

[@dupplinmuir113]

I think a lot of these changes were done to fit in with familiar Hollywood tropes: Aragorn: "I don't want to be king...oh, well if you insist, I will!" Treebeard: "We won't help with Saruman...oh, yes we will!" Faramir: "I'm taking the ring to my father...wait, no I'm not!" Aragorn can't be shown as being keen to gain the throne since it's a convention that anyone who seeks power must be a villain. The other two are not-particularly-successful attempts to create tension.

[@liam_2803]

Dupplin Muir they do that a hell of a lot in Hollywood. It's rather annoying especially the unnecessary plot changes.

[@nickcolbert9615]

Damn straight man. That’s really the whole answer to most of the changes. I always think to myself : this movie cost so much money and could have improved tenfold with a different script. Wouldn’t have cost a dime. Actually probably would have saved money since there wouldn’t have been as many action sequences. Maybe a couple casting changes too. I know people love Elijah Wood but he was just too young and wide-eyed to be Frodo. Mostly a fault of the time change where Gandalf was seemingly gone months instead of 17 years researching the ring, but Elijah wood was way too young to play Frodo, IMO. He’s supposed to be about 20 years older than Sam but in the movie he’s 20 years younger than Sam 😤

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

In fairness to Elijah’s youth, Frodo inherits the ring at 33 and then begins to show signs of “good preservation.” Since 33 is the Hobbit coming-of-age point I imagine it’s roughly equivalent to human 20.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

@@nickcolbert9615 Elijah Wood is only 10 years younger than Sean Astin, and it really doesn't look like it's that much of a difference, let alone your hyperbolic 20. Edit: Also, the ring is explicitly stated on multiple occasions to maintain youth anyway.

[@liam_2803]

Of course it makes sense to go to helms deep close to Isengard! Remember that the closer you are to danger, the further you are from harm😂

[@marveltard]

Just like the tree hiding scene back with the hobbits

[@SpiritofFeanor]

I suppose you are very small

[@trailmixgang]

Weirdly, what you say makes sense. Helms Deep seems like the most unlikely place they would be. So a good choice.

[@somethingfromnothing8428]

Definetely agree with frodo pulling the ring out infront of a wraith. It completely takes away the entire plot of sauron thinking saruman has the ring which leads to him thinking aragorn has captured the ring from saruman which is what leads to the battle of minas tirith and gives frodo his chance to get into mordor in the first place

[@Galvatronover]

No it doesn’t because it’s replaced with him thinking pippin has the ring

[@somethingfromnothing8428]

@@Galvatronover but (in the movies) a wraith sees the ring in osgiliath. Which means theres no way they would then think the ring is in isengard a short time later

[@frepi]

For me, this is the worst scene in Jackson's trilogy and prooves that the script team was mediocre.

[@MS-ho9wq]

I don't think Elrond was horrible at all in the movie. Calling him a scumbag and sickening is way, way over the top. He was a father desperate to see his daughter live. You can feel his love and at the same time desperation and pain. Of course you realize that he should let her make her own choice, but it's understandable that he can't bring himself to. I found it heart-wrenching, to be honest. And it was impressive when he eventually came around, as evidenced by the conversation with Aragorn when presenting the reforged Narsil. Yes yes, it's different from the books, but I don't think Jackson turned him into a petulant child by any means.

[@Schwazoom]

An explanation why Pippin didn't speak up earlier: The Entmoot was in a language they did not understand, and they were excluded from it. They had no idea of what was being said, and by the time they did Treebeard was being stubborn because the decision was made.

[@stevenlowe3026]

But that's not the outcome Tolkien wrote. He had them deciding at Entmoot to go out and attack Isengard. He was very aware of the damage the orcs had done to the trees - what the hobbits did was act as a catalyst the Ents to do something really knew they needed to do - they usually didn't like to do anything 'hasty", but decided that now they really needed to take action.

[@erickpoorbaugh6728]

Another problem with the change to Theoden’s manipulation by Grima is that it makes the decision to release Grima stupid. In the books, where Grima was just gaslighting Theoden into believing he was an invalid, it wasn’t clear whether Grima was a traitor or just a sycophant, which is why they let him go where he pleased as a test of loyalty. In the movie, he was obviously a traitor, so there was no reason not to at least keep him captive. This is made even worse by the fact that in the movie, he reached Isengard almost immediately and provided Saruman with critical information, whereas in the book, he didn’t get there until after the Ents had basically turned Orthanc into house arrest.

[@Schwazoom]

I think that the thing with Elrond - I can see him being a bit of a dick to his daughter, if only because he lost his brother in the exact same way. If there was *SOMETHING* that was meant to make his actions perfectly understandable, it would be if we got to know about his brother. Don't have him mention it, even, just have Arwen go: "I understand, father. You already lost a loved one like that, didn't you? It pains my heart to add to your grief, but it is a choice I must make for myself." Maybe with a little vague exposition. Maybe enough to understand how she can give up her immortality to begin with - that it's something Elrond's family can do.

[@HeleneFlame11]

Great point about the military strategies, that was totally messed up in the movie, they've put all the civilians into the Helms Deep to create more drama, but it is totally unreasonable.

[@willek1335]

I concur. I'd add that there're exceptions. Here are three. • The Sacred Band of Thebes consisted of lovers, which supposedly made them fight fiercely. They were one of the best warriors of their time. • The second reason to bring women and children was due to logistical support. Logistics in war sounds unglamorous, but it's quintessential and criminally underrated work in history. This siege defense was often the work of women or less able. • Lastly. Other times, camp followers would become mobile towns. Following an army like a huge shadow. This argument makes little sense in this case, as they're not on a major campaign and a castle have limited resources. A long drawn siege, e.g. the Battle of Alesia, the old, sick, women and children were thrown out of the city gates to the besieging enemy for food reasons. They all died, along with most of the 80 000 soldiers defending the town. In summary: I agree, although there are possible reasons for bringing women and children. Commitment to fight and invaluable logistical support.

[@rmsgrey]

The example of Theoden taking his civilian population directly toward the enemy forces is my pet example of bad changes in the movies, so I was glad to see it here. In fact, this and the ending of Star Trek (2009) (giving Kirk permanent command of the Enterprise) are my pet examples of a common problem I see in adaptations and reboots of popular properties which you might call "it happened in the original" - where the original had something memorable happen that made sense there, but now the new version has changed a bunch of details so that it no longer makes sense in the new context. But it's okay, they'll do it anyway, and casual fans of the original will be happy because you put that bit in and just not bother thinking about whether or not it makes any sort of sense. All that said, Theoden not being able to whistle up his troops immediately makes sense - mobilisation takes time, so all Theoden would have been able to muster immediately was his household guard, and any standing forces (Eomer's and Theodred's men - the former having been sent away, and the latter broken in battle). For the rest, they need time to gather crofters and herders and round up horses and pass out spears and armour even if they don't need to spend any time drilling the Riders together after assembling them. When it comes to Frodo being taken to Osgiliath, the other obvious question about that scene is why no-one other than Faramir thinks to actually use a bow against the Nazgul politely presenting itself for target practice?

[@nickcolbert9615]

Frodo was so damn wimpy in the movies! It pisses me off. That scene of him basically offering the ring to the Nazgul made me wince, even when I saw it in the theaters in dec 2002 I was like “Jesus Christ already”. I guess I can’t fault Elijah Wood. I actually enjoyed his performance in the early sections in Hobbiton. But God did they murder his character in the script. 😔

[@Bryan198026]

Tell me about it! I know Frodo isn’t supposed to be this mighty warrior, but neither was he a complete wuss. But after watching Elijah Wood‘s performance, even as much as I do like the trilogy, I have this vision of Frodo and Sam sitting in the dining room at Bag-End having lunch or something, with a seam that would go something like this. Sam: Mr. Frodo, could you hand me the tea pot? Frodo: I can’t do it Sam. It’s too heavy.

[@jhibbitt2896]

there's a big difference between knowing about something and witnessing something. sometimes the psychological effect of actually seeing the trees cut down made reality hit home and made treebeard vengeful and also put aside the fears he had of going to war. this was a character error rather than a plot hole

[@erickpoorbaugh6728]

That was my interpretation as well. That said, there’s still the plothole of Treebeard being able to unilaterally reverse what the entmoot carefully decided and all of the other ents simply going along with it. Not to mention that all of the films’ added instances of “I’m not going to do the right thing at first because we need more tension” were pretty stupid anyway.

[@bradh3484]

To your first point. I think the same, that the movie took it to far with the age difference for Theoden but I don’t think it would have raised too many eyebrows as long as it was fairly gradual. It is not unheard of for a middle aged person to age very quickly due to disease... Especially before modern medicine. In fact I have seen it personally... someone i knew that was late fifties aged about 20-25 years over the course of about 1.5 years.

[@trailmixgang]

Smart comment.

[@wesleythomas7125]

"Someone had their brain turned off." Well, they thought Pippin had the Ring, and therefore Frodo and Sam were the decoys. "Ohhh Mr. Ringwraith! Lookie what IIIII have!" Too obvious. He outsmarted himself.

[@HeleneFlame11]

I think the first 4 minutes is the first time that I disagree with you. First of all in the movie we see Theoden's final condition, not how fast he got to that state, progression could have been slow and people though sorrowful accepted it as some form of mental condition (Alzheimer type...) together with Grima who seems to be quite devoted to the king. This is an honor based society so it will not be acceptable to go against, much less overthrow a king if he is still capable of any rational reasoning at all, and we see that Grima purposefully allows Theoden to give semi-argumented orders in the presence of his people, so that they would not dare to uprise even if they did not approve of the order. These people are tough and would rather suffer then go against their king, out of sheer respect for the royal line, and we can see it in the three most honorable ones and the most entitled to the throne: Theodred, Eomer and Eowin - both in the books and the movie. If they refuse to lead the "revolution" who will?

[@aleisterbroley900]

This. I think this guy gets caught up in initial impressions of the movies and doesn't revise his understanding on closer inspections, as I did for a while. But then, I've had ~20 years of rewatching and pondering on them lol.

[@HeleneFlame11]

@@aleisterbroley900Hi, just wanted to clarify. I am not criticizing the channel. I actually like it a lot, and have been going through all the videos because I appreciate the detailed analysis of different topics. I was simply expressing my point of view, which happened to be different. Feel free to do the same :).

[@Richard_Nickerson]

@@aleisterbroley900 100% He's obstinate to the point of being intentionally obtuse in order not to concede a point.

[@johnalucard7860]

The elves didn't go to fight in helms deep.just legolas.

[@rmsgrey]

And the army of elves that turn up to help mop up the next day (instead of Erkenbrand)

[@willek1335]

Hi My main area of interest has been medieval military history for a couple of decades. The baseline of most Hollywood renditions are not aware of the basic contemporary literature: De Re Militari, the most common book from the middle ages, excluding the Bible. I don't have anywhere near your knowledge of Tolkien. There's however one point I'd like to add to this particular discussion. From that point of view, the most common error I see from Tolkien connoisseurs is to conflate how medieval politics functioned vs modern nation state politics. As a medieval king, you had no 6000 spears available at the tip of a hat. Instead, it's best to think of it as temporary alliances, joined together by a charismatic leader. All these lords were independent rulers in all but name. All the politics thus functioned like criminal gangs in modern cities. By that I mean, no one group or sub group had a monopoly of violence. Kings ruled with nobles, not as the solitary sun kings of the early modern period. Their warrior class were busy tending to their every-day needs, and didn't see what happened elsewhere as their problem. It took the Norwegian king 2-3 months to gather 10 000 men to invade Sweden in the first half of the 13th century. A king had his domain, sometimes quite small compared to the 4-5 other major houses. I don't find much fault with Theoden taking up seat in the Hornburg to buy time. A castle is a fantastic force-multiplier. That said, having read the Lord of the Rings, I prefer Tolkien's version of the history. They're a cavalry nation after all, and as such thrive in the open field. A castle is an act of desperation. So yeah, King Theoden's choice to seek refuge in a citadel for his personal army and wait until Rohan eventually could relieve him was perfectly adequate. One, if not the most common military tactics, adviced by De Re Militari. A sound commander of Isengard would in response dig in with a sufficient force and open parlay. Demand terms of conditions. The rest of the white hand forces would normally splinter of into clusters and raid/besiege the rest of Rohan. Cheers

[@rmsgrey]

The biggest problem with going to Helms Deep isn't that going to a defensible position doesn't make sense, but that it's not the only defensible position in Rohan, and of all of them, it's the one that requires them to travel 150 miles directly toward the place the enemy recently won a battle (the Fords of Isen) before turning aside at the last minute and going maybe 50 more miles. Particularly considering that the first thing they do after surviving the assault is come all the way back to a defensible position within 50 miles of Edoras, where they started. There's also serious questions about the military competency of Saruman's commanders that they only discover and react to Theoden's civilians being on the move just in time to beseige them at Helm's Deep (after around a week's travel time). Also, that they didn't manage to get their army moving on the way to Edoras until it was too late to encounter Theoden bringing his civilians the other way. In the book, Theoden sends Eowyn and the civilian population to the nearby defensive position (which does deprive Eowyn of chances to moon over Aragorn in person compared to the movie) and takes his household guard to reinforce the Fords of Isen (which, unlike in the movie, hadn't yet fallen at that point) only to be met by the news that they were too late, and the Fords had been taken and Theodred slain and make a desperate retreat to what was then the closest defensible position at Helm's Deep, with the enemy army on their heels the whole way.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

You can kind of forgive that in the movie since the audience doesn’t necessarily know the geography, but yeah for those in the know it makes zero sense.

[@HeatherAllen]

I've always felt that a lot of Peter Jackson's plot problems were due to a complete lack of any grasp of geography.

[@marveltard]

Pippin is buying time till he figures somthing out? All I can imagine.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

That’s as good an explanation as any, but that’s not really the impression I get from the scene.

[@trailmixgang]

Here's my explanation for Pippin's choice. It was a deduction. He guessed that close to Isengard Saruman had probably cut down some tree's ( Also, Gandalf or someone could have told him this information). Treebeard didn't necessarily know since he was on semi-good terms with Saruman. He also might not have realized the sheer devastation the wizard was causing. It's important to remember too that Ents are slow so may not catch on as quickly as humans would about changes to their world. They could even have been in their dormant stage while the forests were being burned. As for why Pippin didn't mention it at the Council. He thought maybe the Ents would choose to fight on their own accord. When they didn't the plan hatched in his brain while he was riding Treebeard. Did he know for sure it would work? No. But he figured anything was worth a try. Honestly, I didn't think this was really that hard to figure out.

[@Shinigami00Azael]

1. Aragorn stuff: Making the arc for this already perfect bustard in the novel is not a bad thing. 2. Erlond stuff: Yes, I agree that giving your dauther good advise grounded in reality, because you love her is the most creepy and awefull thing that a father can do xd

[@danguillou713]

The Ent Moot changes are really dumb. I see what PJ is trying to accomplish: he’s giving Merry and Pippin agency, because in the book they’re mostly along for the ride. But time and distance just cease to work. Treabeard carries the hobbits past Isengard and now he suddenly see all the logging going on and becomes enraged. (And like you said, how did he not know this already? How did the hobbits?) And then he blows his horn and the ents attack. Wtf? Can ents teleport? And what was the point of the moot if the ents just charge into battle when Treabeard gets pissed? My head canon for the movies is that the moot did decide to attack Isengard and that Treabeard is just joshing with the hobbits. As for the battle of Helms Deep, that is my least favorite PJ sequence. My reading of the books is that against an overwhelming numerical opposition, going into a fortification is one of the few viable options. You lose the ability to defend your symbolic capital and your crops, but if you’re lucky and your enemy is either dumb or in a big hurry, they will attempt a massed assault against your prepared defenses. And the calamity for those assaults are such that the attacker will lose ten or twenty men for each defender. Too bad that Sarumans mobilization was so effective, his numbers so vast that he could afford that. Suddenly you realize that you’re in a death trap and what you actually should have done was to disperse and engage in hit-and-run guerilla tactics. Lets note that that would let you save even less civilians and infrastructure, and that any victory by attrition would take a really long time. The way it works out in the book is much better in the end, because the defenses do hold, and the attacking force is destroyed, so maybe it wasn’t such a mistake after all. But in the PJ version, going on defense is just inherently dumb and self defeating. Aragorn and Gandalf think that what Theoden should really do is shout ”LEEROY!!!” and charge. Walls and armor is just decorative and an aggressive foe will just cleave right through. The Uruk-Hai in the movie have pikes: how are they going to offend a castle wall? But in the movie they kinda start running towards the wall, and the next cut they are fighting on top of it. And even dumber is the twohundred elf archers from Lothlorien. If I was a defender in a medieval castle and all I had was the Kings guard, and a bunch of over- or underage militia, I’d be worried. But if I was suddenly reinforced by two hundred legolases, I’d break out the beer, because in that moment the battle would have been won. With fresh recruits it might make sense to make them wait before releasing their arrows, but with veteran elf archers that’s just insulting. What Aragorn would have said, should have said, would be more like ”Brothers, in your own time. Oh, and Legolas said their armor is weak around the throat and lower face, so make them eat your arrows.” The whole elf reinforcement is dumb and story breaking. I think I saw a video about how it was originally a way to bring Arwen into the story earlier. I think they even started shooting scenes with her doing action princess fighting on the battlements. But that idea was canned. Maybe because they realized that it would generate snowballing story differences down the road. Maybe because while Liv Tyler really enjoyed learning elvish and doing romantic scenes in Middle Earth conlang (and kicked ass doing those scenes!) she hated the action choreography and maybe … wasn’t delivering very good stuff there. Generally, I think that large scale battles are PJs weakest area, and the battle of Helms Deep really brings down the middle third of the whole film. The ents are at least constantly entertaining.

[@liam_2803]

Wouldn't the storming of osgilliath be useless anyway as the army of orcs led by gothmog has to travel from minas morgul and then Frodo would be gone? I'm not sure 😂

[@andrewwilliams2353]

Jackson just likes grossness not realism or subtlety. When I first saw what they'd done to Theoden, I just thought he reminded me of "Father Jack" in the TV comedy show "Father Ted". To people who've never seen this show I can heartily recommend it. Father Jack is a retired Catholic priest who is a debauched, deranged alcoholic of vile appearance who is a resident of a remote Irish manse under the "care" of the incumbent Father Ted and his young dopey curate Father Dougal. Needless to say I couldn't take Theoden seriously as a characte at all after that. Bernard Hill was hopelessly miscast too in my opinion. He can play a union shop steward but not a king.

[@ffxiarcadius]

the "Drums in the Deep" was really the Balrog walking around Prove me wrong

[@Richard_Nickerson]

Ruining Théoden as a character isn't a plot hole. Yes, it's a bad and even nonsensical change, but it's merely character assassination, not a plot hole.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

The point is that the change in his character makes him do nonsense things.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

@@TolkienLorePodcast But that's not a plot hole, and it's not even actually a problem with the film because the characters literally acknowledge how unreasonable and nonsensical he's being. It's dumb and an unnecessary change, but it's not the problem you're making it out to be.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

It’s a plot hole because the movie simultaneously makes us think his problems are all do you Saruman possessing him, but after that is solved he’s still a total idiot. It’s not a strict contradiction, admittedly, but it’s inconsistent to act like he needed to be possessed but also make him into the kind of person who could easily have been manipulated without such heavy-handed interference.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

@@TolkienLorePodcast due* to You're still not describing a plot hole. You're using that term incorrectly. And, again, the characters in the movie immediately acknowledge how dumb it is on screen. The movie is actively acknowledging that it's dumb, the movie agrees with you. That inherently prevents it from being a plot hole... it's not a hole because the movie does acknowledge it.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

The fact that the movie acknowledges it doesn’t mean it’s not a plot hole. There’s still no good explanation.

[@miykaelyisrael4423]

it could be that tree beard didn't know about the raping of the forest because he was so heartbroken over the ent wives that he simply blocked everything else out... he had gotten to the point that ignored reality and crawled within... his character gives me the impression of such a sad countenance... seeing the destruction with his own eyes was the impact that he needed to draw him out of himself... it is easier to ignore that which you are told than that which you see PERSONALLY!

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

How do you reconcile that with the idea that the Ents are meeting to decide what to do about Saruman?

[@miykaelyisrael4423]

@@TolkienLorePodcast they discuss as a way to disregard it as insignificant in order to calm any rising fears as ridiculous... the lost entwives is too much so any other pain must be downplayed and dismissed... they would have done so again... were it not for pippin.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Nah, that doesn’t make sense to me. If they really just wanted to shut it all out they would ACTUALLY ignore Saruman, not spend hours talking about. Remember, Treebeard says Ents never say anything unless it is *worth* taking a long time to say. Why would Saruman be worth spending so much time on if they didn’t actually want to deal with him to begin with?

[@miykaelyisrael4423]

@@TolkienLorePodcast fair points... but it would be worth convincing themselves that everything is ok... it would be worthwhile to sing themselves lullabies after waking from a nightmare.

[@OskarCzechowicz-OmniMusician]

You're Cody's Lab, but about LOTR instead of chemistry

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

So I’ve heard lol

[@OskarCzechowicz-OmniMusician]

@@TolkienLorePodcast you really look like brothers and even speak in similar manner. A funny coincidence.

[@remyheart27]

Chicken nugget

[@Richard_Nickerson]

Grima's "thugs" are just like kingsguard or whatever Rohan's equivalent are. Just regular Rohirrim guys who work in Meduseld. They're not traitors, Grima is working with the king's authority, they're just regular guys doing their job. (Edited because I initially used talk-to-text)

[@Richard_Nickerson]

Note that this doesn't get a single response, never mind a 14 comment back-and-forth of being intentionally obtuse to try to keep an opinion.

[@JafuetTheSame]

Also decrepit Theoden literally contradicts the overal approach of the movies to be "realistic" because it is the most fairytale/legend-like & reality-bending device they resorted to in the movies. Frankly, I would love this kind of approach (and decrepit Theoden is actually my most favorite part of the movies). It is fantasy after all, so why all the striving for realism? But I guess that was the intent of the books? (Never read them)

[@anarionelendili8961]

Yeah, the changes in Theoden, Elrond and Faramir were very, very annoying. Theoden in particular is headbangingly stupid. Makes you want to reach into the movie and strangle him. As for Osgilliath, it is even worse in a sense since it means that the hobbits have to cross Anduin pretty much right under the noses of the Nazgul and all the orcs gathered on the eastern bank. Like you said, there was absolutely no need to do any of these. Elrond is the most excusable one of these, since at least you can see a disapproving parent trying to pull something like this, and we have the example of Thingol. Indeed, given that Arwen is kinda like 'Luthien Reborn' and Aragorn is filling the Beren slot, might even make sense why Elrond is channeling his maternal great-great-grandfather. As for Pippin and Treebeard, it does not make much sense that the Ents would not know about this. Then again, the movies have made a point of Saruman just starting to 'clone' uruk-hair and tearing up Isengard to start the forges and the like. It has all been happening like over the winter, since Gandalf's visit to Isengard. So maybe it is excusable that the Ents, slow as they are, are just getting the inklings that maybe there is something wrong. Pippin's motivation, as far as I could understand it, was to try and get Treebeard to see Isengard for himself. While Pippin didn't know exactly what was there, he could have easily have overheard the Isengard Uruk-Hai talking about great forges and large armies of Isengard. Or for that matter, heard Gandalf talking about it since Gandalf saw what was starting to happen in Isengard while he was a prisoner. So it was an educated guess that whatever was going on in Isengard, whether industrial exploitation of the forest or the place teeming with hated orcs, it would be enough to make Treebeard angry. Granted, there is no reason why Pippin shouldn't have told Treebeard this before. Again, the book does it much better!

[@liam_2803]

Pippin knew about the clearing from the scene where they are on treebeard above the canopy and he sees the uruk hai army marching out of Isengard and obviously then sees the burnt trees. Treebeard can't see this as he is below the canopy but I agree he surely should have known if the trees speak to each other😂

[@erickpoorbaugh6728]

I always thought that Treebeard did know about the clear-cutting, but simply hearing about something won’t spur you to action like seeing it firsthand.

[@danharris8805]

Really enjoy all of your videos mate! Great stuff! :-)

[@schwarzerritter5724]

There is a huge difference between knowing something and seeing something. Treebeard know what Saruman was doing, but every time he thought he should do something, he changed his mind. Pippin relied on Treebeard's rage when seeing the destruction with his own eyes.

[@magesentron]

Big reason the Orcs can't storm Osgiliath in the middle of the day...Orcs can't travel through sunlight. That's why Saurman was making Uruk Hai. Mordor Orcs need Mount Doom to erupt and cloud the plains in shadow before they can march.

[@johndeeter4030]

Didn't Pippin see the smoke over Isengard and Treebeard says there is always smoke oner it..Maybe he figured that with all the smoke they were cutting down the forest..Plus in the novel with Rohan there was the red arrow part that never made it into the movie..

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

I can see why they cut the Red Arrow since it’s a bit duplicative and the movie was already enormously long. As for the smoke, that stills begs the question of why Treebeard didn’t figure that out. He moves slowly but he’s not an idiot lol.

[@phoule76]

Might Grima's "thugs" have been "half-orcs" who looked basically human? I'd like to hear more about half-breeds like that, although I doubt there's much info to be found. Didn't some join "Sharkey-Saruman" and Grima during the Scouring of the Shire? I think I may have even heard about "half trolls" once. Did those "couplings" occur naturally, or were they "brewed up" by Sauron?

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

I don’t think Tolkien ever really explains those references, probably because we’d rather not know the answer....

[@ashleybies1694]

“The second Last Alliance of Men and Elves” (Elvish company arriving to reinforce~rescue the Helms Deep garrison) is also both an internal inconsistency and a cardinal sin in terms of vitiating the essence of plot and characters ~ along with the Cowardly Ents and Faramir betraying Frodo

[@Samceksamicek]

Thank you so much! This is very helpful for my research.

[@MountainFisher]

My son read the books and The Two Towers pissed him off as it did me. I have only watched the movie once, l understand that they have time constraints, but to add a bunch of nonsense that wasn't in the books was bogus.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

It’s my least favorite of the trilogy in large part for that reason.

[@aleisterbroley900]

6:00 big difference in apparent border skirmishes and all-out war. If Theoden thought there was even a remote chance that things could be solved through diplomacy, he'd take it. Also, even in the books the influence of the Shadow over Theoden lingers to a degree, as he doesn't fully come back to himself until just before he orders the charge at the Pelennor Fields. 15:10 you don't have kids, do you? Elrond was humanized here to me. He's desperate to save his daughter's life. He's honestly unsure if she's even going to have a husband at this point, quite possibly dying for nothing by forsaking her immortality for a guy who's probably going to get himself killed in the next few days. And by asking if he also has her love, he's likely honestly asking, "Do you love this human so much that you'd kill your own father for him?" since there's a chance Elrond would himself waste away from grief at losing Arwen forever, without even any hope of reunion in the afterlife. 20:00 I've always taken it to be that, regardless of Treebeard's knowledge (and I don't recall any indication that he just automatically knows what's happening everywhere in the forest, in fact he mentions walking around and talking to trees and creatures to gather and share information iirc), actually SEEING the destruction brought it home to him, sort of slapped him in the face and got past that Entish reluctance to act. As far as Pippin goes, I assumed that he wasn't sure, but having spoken to Gandalf he knew that the area around Isengard was being destroyed in a big way, and decided to gamble that just MAYBE TB would encounter something that would sway him (sway, tree, haha).

[@bradh3484]

10:00 Faramir’s 2nd in command is named Madril. For some reason he is the 3rd person in the credits after Aldor (the old man that fired the first arrow at helms deep) and Samwise Gamgee.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

I don't think the IMDb list reflects the actual credits.

[@windmilltothestars6783]

I think it's because the cast is listed in alphabetical order by the actors' last names, so "Astin" (Sean) is pretty near the top, and Id guess the actors for those two dudes also have 'A' names.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

Your take on Elrond is creepier than anything he said. He's her father, she's his only daughter. In the movies, we never learn about his sons, so she's his only child in general. He lost his wife, he lost his brother to the literal exact same choice Arwen is making. In his eyes, the only way she survives is going to Valinor. She's literally slowly dying in front of him, and he doesn't see a happy ending for anyone. This is all explicitly clear. How is it cringey for him to do or say what he does?

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

I’m not sure I can explain why it’s cringe for someone to guilt trip their child out of a romance if it isn’t obvious.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

@@TolkienLorePodcast You're being objectively disingenuous about the situation, you're specifically trying to frame it your way and leaving out information we're being explicitly given. Elrond sees his only child (as far as the movies are concerned) dying right in front of him. Staying for a relationship his power of foresight has told him won't go well is LITERALLY killing her right in front of him. Going to Valinor, or so he thinks, will literally save her life. 1. A parent talking their child out of a romantic relationship depending on the circumstances isn't inherently cringey. Period. It could actually be good advice. 2. A father telling his only child to abandon a hopeless relationship in order to maintain her literal health (and immortality, which would be super important to him given the history we know of him) isn't cringey either. 3. More to the point, again, you're intentionally misrepresenting the situation as it is.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Arwen isn’t dying when he pulls the guilt trip. It’s her mortality that makes him change his mind actually. As for the other points: 1) he’s not giving advice-he’s trying to guilt her by acting like she must not love him if she stays; 2) it’s not a hopeless relationship though, and if we’re considering his history we also have to consider it was Luthien, his ancestor, who pulled the same move and thus saved Middle-earth, not to mention he would know the value of the Gift of Men; 3) you’re the one who can’t pick a lane. Either we need to stick to the movie (and be accurate about the timeline) or we get to count everything in the lore, but you can’t seem to make up your mind on that.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

@@TolkienLorePodcast She's literally weakening in front of him, and he says she's cold and that the light of the Eldar is leaving her, dude... Edit: See? Literally incapable of conceding a single thing. Get sufficiently proven wrong? Just drop the thread 🙄

[@celtofcanaanesurix2245]

I think the best way to explain the Pippin thing is that Gandolf had told the other hobbits what had happened to him with being captured by Saruman and Pippin had just then remembered, because Gandalf had witnessed the Orcs cutting down trees

[@Richard_Nickerson]

The orcs are storming Osgiliath literally as that scene plays out, they're just being defeated by the Men. They need to wait for Mt. Doom to cover the sun in order to make a full assault. The rest of the army is literally *days* away in Minas Morgul, a full-on assault of Osgiliath is not the immediate or easy solution you're making it out to be.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

I note a complete lack of response to this comment as well. Really picky and choosy as to what you respond to, even from the same person. Could it be that this comment did a good enough job at stating its point and you're just incapable of saying "you're right, I was wrong?"

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Maybe it would help if I actually knew what your comment was a response to. This video is old so I don’t even know what all I said any more. I’m also under no obligation to respond to every comment. I have a life apart from the channel after all.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

@@TolkienLorePodcast Yet you've dedicated an incredible amount of time to repeatedly saying "nuh uh, you're wrong" on that other thread. That's basically all that conversation has boiled down to, over and over. You said why don't the Orcs and Sauron just storm Osgiliath after the whole Frodo almost giving up the ring thing. You said it would be easy and logical, if not verbatim, for them to just completely swamp Osgiliath RIGHT THEN because they knew the ringbearer was there. That's what this is in response to. And I believe someone else who tried to counter that point somewhere in the comments also pointed out that Sauron thought Pippin or Saruman had the ring, and so they could also think that Frodo and Sam were decoys. Yes, the Nazgûl should be able to sense the ring, but at the same time Sauron should be nearly certain that Saruman has betrayed him and claimed the ring.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

First, Frodo is OBVIOUSLY not a decoy at that point. Second, the main army may not be there yet but if the Ring is right there it’s an obvious move to throw everything (including the Nazgul who are clearly there) at them to get it. Instead they basically do nothing. That’s the plot hole.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

@@TolkienLorePodcast 1. "OBVIOUSLY"? Going to justify that, or just leave it as is? Without putting the ring on, the Nazgûl wasn't able to confirm that he had the one ring. 2. There was only one Nazgûl, and it's clear that his Fell Beast just noped out of there after getting shot. 3. What kind of communication are you imagining going on on this medieval battlefield? This is like Gendry and the lightspeed messenger crow in Game of Thrones! *One* Nazgûl suspects, but *can't confirm,* that the halfling with the one ring is in Osgiliath. We've seen no indication of an immediate connection like telepathy between Sauron and the Nazgûl, not even the Witch-king. The Nazgûl doesn't appear to be able to inform the Orcs... we don't know where he went when he retreated, but at best he fell back to safety and informed commanders in the rear... perhaps he flew all the way back to Mordor. So, at best, it takes a few minutes for him to tell someone about it, then those individuals have to communicate the change in priorities on an active battlefield, one on which their side was currently not necessarily winning. By the time the Nazgûl informed anyone, Frodo & gang would already have been on their way and out of Osgiliath. So, the point being that the main part of the army being literally at least a full day, if not longer, away makes what you're saying is the obvious and easy thing to do not all that logical at all. Maybe the encounter with Frodo is exactly what spurs them on to take over Osgiliath in RotK... maybe it's supposed to be interpreted as what triggers Minas Morgul to unleash. I think you had an initial reaction and are trying to stick to it and refuse to change it or think deeper. Edit: And you are, again, misusing that term. You just call anything you deem a mistake or poorly done a plot hole, but that's not what the term means.

[@martyrobbins5241]

Do you have a combover?

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

You know it’s polite to ask personal questions like that. 😂. But no, I don’t, I’m just thinning on top. Lost the genetic lottery lol.

[@martyrobbins5241]

Tolkien Lore damn bad luck.