How Tolkien Recycled Frodo's Story Arc for Theoden

[@blakewinter1657]

While everyone notices how the movies changed Faramir for the worse, they also changed Theoden for the worse, and almost as badly. And Gandalf. While I like the movies as movies, there are a lot of changes that were really not necessary and that really changed the characters and their story arcs.

[@nancyhayes9958]

They nerfed a lot of the good characters to get more dramatic tension or to keep the divergent stories in sync with each other, but the one that actually annoys me the most is Denethor. I don’t like him in the book, but at least I can respect him. He isn’t a murderous lunatic from the first, and he does a much better job of protecting his people. He doesn’t sink into madness until the very end. At the very least, I wish the movie had touched on the fact he held out against Sauron longer than Saruman did when he used the palantir. Sauron never managed to corrupt Denethor and had to “settle” for driving him crazy.

[@shrillchicken57varietychan66]

Hey man, I just wanted to say that I appreciate this channel and the work you’ve done so much. I cannot think of any other creator that I can listen to talk for twenty minutes with no visuals at all. What you manage to do in comparison to the bigger Tolkien channels with your Tolkien knowledge and amazing insight is genuinely amazing, and you always have great insight in your videos. I know you’ve been doing this for years and I hope you don’t stop anytime soon!

[@gandalfolorin-kl3pj]

Melon Geek: Only you would come up with a topic that at first glance appears to be boring. Yet in your description of the myriad facets of the parallels between Frodo and Theoden you take me back again to Middle Earth. I see again my namesake giving his wise advice to Frodo and to Theoden. I see them both on their journeys, each reaching his destination in similar manner. I am there weeping when Theoden dies, and I am there at the Havens weeping when Frodo departs. Now I need a hug, my dear melon. Keep up the great work you do. Namarie.

[@Enerdhil]

You are right about Joshua doing such a great job of describing everything. It makes it easy for us to visualize the scenes and it is also why he doesn't need fan art to make his videos better.😁👍

[@beregond.]

Thanks for this one! It was something I had not thought of, but now that you have shown it, it cannot be unseen, as you said.

[@randomvideos786]

Petition for Tolkien Lore to Review/Rant about Rings of Power season 2. Tolkien Lore, I know you said you wouldn't watch season 2 but, my brother and I watched it because it was a so bad it's entertaining type of thing. We had some good laughs and we were thinking the whole time we so wish you would do some videos about it. I know it's a long shot, but would you at least consider it?

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Nope. Sorry to disappoint but I refuse to dignify it with my attention, or benefit Amazon with improved statistics.

[@randomvideos786]

​@@TolkienLorePodcastThat is disappointing, but I respect your decision. Thank you for taking the time to answer, and keep up the great content.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

I don't think this would lead anywhere positive or be worth the effort. There is already at least one LotR channel that dipped significantly in quality because the guy behind it shifted his output from lore content to lackluster and spiteful reviews of the show - with a tone as if this show was deliberately created to insult people. What a pretentious notion of said reviewer. I can understand to an extent why you would watch such videos, but making reviews for something you despise in the first place is a waste of energy and time for channels like Tolkien Lore. Not to mention all the channels that popped up riding on the wave of negativity - people who tell you in their limited ways how bad this show is, only to cynically attempt to make a financial gain from it. Hatewatching is a bizarre and inconsequential action if you ask me, but don't worry, you'll find plenty of it on youtube.

[@Enerdhil]

​@@Crafty_Spirit Actually I am one of the many hate-watchers of TRoP. 😅 In your first paragraph, are you referring to Yoystan's MotW channel? Just wondering.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

@@Enerdhil Hate-watching is fine (I hope though it doesn't sour your mood too much). I just have a critical view of content creators who instead of working on a more interesting video just post the x-th video with the same critique. Some seemingly can't cope with their frustration and are magnetised by something they despise. And much worse, some no-names try to promote their channels by hating on something that everyone and their grandmas already criticise. Sometimes there is a difference between what you say in a conversation between friends as compared to what you would write in an article. Harsh spoken words can help everyone cope with frustration and then let it be. Harsh written or recorded words are more of a double-edged sword, because their negativity seems to persist longer. Hence I find it somewhat foolish to focus too much on ranting. "Too much" is obviously a subjective measure. The channel I alluded to is Council of the Rings, formerly Macbeth of Gondor. On the opposite side of the spectrum, you'd have Rainbow Dave from Tolkien Untangled how spent like 20 seconds sharing his view on the show ("horrible writing, 1 out of 10") and subsequently posted around 10 hours of material how the Second Age could have been adapted alternatively. I personally prefer Chris' (TPG) approach who posts >15 minutes of review per episode. Critical and snarky, but not fuming or wailing.

[@nancyhayes9958]

The other parallel in the hero cycle is that Gandalf acts as the wiseman/mentor for both. The hero cycle I like to use is one my myth and archetype teacher taught us in college. (Professor Decker, Ricks College, 1978 - 1979): the hero is in a stable place (good or bad) and something happens to knock them out of their stasis and up-end their world. They reach the point when they have to make an either-or decision. One choice will lead to their destruction. The other choice will lead to their salvation. Usually, the “safest” choice is the one that will destroy them. Example: Frodo is living his life in the Shire, pretty much satisfied with that life. Gandalf shows up and tells him Bilbo’s ring isn’t just a nifty invisibility ring but the master ring Sauron needs to rule the world. Frodo has to decide what to do with the ring: try to hide it, hand it off to someone else, or take it to Rivendell. Frodo makes the decision to take it to Rivendell. It’s the more dangerous choice, but it gets the ring to people who, hopefully, know what to do with it. His “reward” is meeting Bilbo. In Frodo’s case, the hero cycle is doubled. He’s safe in Rivendell. He’s getting to visit with his favorite person. People who know much more than he does are going to take care of everything. That bit of blissful ignorance lasts until the Council of Elrond. The decision-question is who is going to take the Ring to Mordor. The “bad” decision, and the one Frodo actually wants, is “anybody but me.” The answer that will save the world is for Frodo to become the ring-bearer. Frodo succeeds in getting the ring to Mt. Doom at the cost of every bit of his physical, spiritual, and mental strength, where the ring can be destroyed. In this case, the “salvation” is the world’s, not the hero’s. Frodo’s salvation comes when he’s invited to go to the Blessed Realm where he can finally be healed. This version of the hero cycle isn’t as complex as Joseph Campbell’s, and doesn’t automatically tie into the Christ-as-Hero archetype, but it is fun to play with.

[@FatphobeforLife]

I thought of another parallel and connection as well: Theoden spares Grima (even after he proves he is a traitor and commits an act of pretty serious lese majeste) ; Frodo spares Saruman-. Both mercies don't matter in the end, both evildoers get their comeuppance. But both Theoden and Frodo display a true quality of mercy, AND the recipients of that mercy are both still punished by, presumably, God (Eru). I'm thinking this ties into the Prof's strong Christian belief not just in mercy, but also in all beings, or at least the better among us, needing to have the humility of leaving some judgements to God. The connection in the above is obviously that Saruman and Grima are not just evildoers, but a pair who work together. And then there is the parallel of Grima and Gollum. Frodo and Theoden have similar conversations with these two, and give them just about the exact same choice to prove fidelity and trustworthiness, but in neither case do they get to just run around freely, either in Rohan or Emyn Muil. Dang it's just like you say, once you see it, you can't unsee it! Great and thoughtful work as always!

[@Enerdhil]

This is a great point.💕😁👍

[@iainmc9859]

Joseph Campbell 'The Hero with a Thousand Faces'. Although its not a long book it feels like an English Literature students dissertation stretched out in to book length. Finding any decent 2000 word summary online will save you several afternoons reading ... and re-reading as it meanders so badly.

[@fireimperishable]

Re "The Hero's Journey", Joesph Campbell usually gets credit for the idea. I highly recommend Bill Moyer's interview with Campbell. (See PBS). Also, there is a Wikipedia article on the topic The Hero's Journey.

[@hglundahl]

I did enjoy it, I actually hadn't noticed, it went under my radar.

[@nicholausmcmullen3423]

Hey I enjoy your channel, I was wondering if you if you could do a review of season two of rings of power. Compared and contrast between the show and the book. I really enjoyed that during the first season. What’s lore and what they made up lol. Appreciate you!!

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Nope. I decided at the end of season 1 that I just wasn’t going to even watch it.

[@ragnvald420]

Tolkien had what we call, in our age, BDE😂 he put down the hammer

[@TheMangoDeluxe]

Ah but did you know that fatty bolger and the mouth of Sauron are also on the same arc

[@Somerandomfilmmakerguy]

😂😂😂😂

[@FatphobeforLife]

I was hoping you could clear something up for me that has always puzzled me. As you say, I always assumed that Gandalf was telling Theoden about Frodo taking the One Ring to Mordor to be destroyed in that secret conversation. But what then was Gandalf referring (and this the reader is privy to) when he said to Theoden right after that conversation: "Not indeed that prize which Saruman desires above all else, but at the least two members of my Company, sharers of a secret hope, of which even to you, lord, I cannot yet speak openly. Dare you think of what they might now be suffering, or what Saruman might now have learned to our destruction?'" It sure sounds like he is referring to the Ring and the quest to destroy it here, as what else could he be talking about when he says "not indeed that prize which Saruman desires most"? But if he was referring to the Ring here, then what the heck did he tell Theoden earlier that gave him any hope? This has always confused me.

[@pwmiles56]

Surely the "secret hope" is simply that Frodo will destroy the Ring. True, Gandalf makes the hope a bit less secret by mentioning it twice in open company. He is signalling that the King has a good reason to go to war. It's feudal times, the Rohirrim love their King and will follow him, as long as they believe he is sure in his purpose.

[@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ]

I assume that since here Gandalf speaks openly (there are Eomer and Eowyn at least, and maybe some other people), he speaks in hints. Also we do not know how much does Gandalf reveal to Theoden previously.

[@FatphobeforLife]

@@pwmiles56 But if THAT is the secret hope that he CAN'T tell Theoden (that they have the Ring and have set in motion a plan to destroy it), then WHAT was it he told Theoden out of everyone's earshot including our own that gave Theoden hope?

[@pwmiles56]

@@FatphobeforLife Gandalf told Theoden all about the Ring, but for his ears only. It's top secret because Sauron mustn't get wind of the plan, but Theoden as ruler must be in on the secret.

[@FatphobeforLife]

@@pwmiles56 Right--but the "secret hope" is something he says he can't even tell Theoden. What is that then? Because earlier Gandalf says: "'Verily,' said Gandalf, now in a loud voice, keen and clear, 'that way lies our hope, where sits our greatest fear. Doom hangs still on a thread. Yet hope there is still, if we can but stand unconquered for a little while.' Which I think we both agree HAS to be about Frodo and the Ring. So, again, what is the secret hope he can't e3ven reveal to Theoden?

[@Enerdhil]

Joshua, you said that Frodo "would go to Valinor or Tol Eressëa." Can Frodo set foot on the continent of Aman? I have always thought that neither of the Hobbits could because of the ban. The same one that buried Ar-Pharazon and his Men underground when they set foot on Aman.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Probably Tol Eressea, but I didn’t have a clear enough memory to completely rule out Valinor.

[@Enerdhil]

​@@TolkienLorePodcast I had just assumed even the Sindar and Teleri Elves in Middle Earth would settle in Tol Eressëa and maybe Alqualondë and perhaps would not be permitted to enter into Valinor. Do you have any insight into where they all go or can go?

[@Enerdhil]

​@@TolkienLorePodcast Also, Frodo needs healing that only Irmo and Estë can give him, but if he can't go to Lórien, can they go to him and give him the healing? I worry about such silly things.😅

[@Enerdhil]

So, the shard from the Morgul Blade is parallel to the words of Grima? Elrond healing Frodo, while Gandalf helps Théoden to heal?

[@anarionelendili8961]

(I misremembered and was wrong!) Very much a nitpick, but I don't recall Frodo going back to Rivendell. He meets Bilbo when they are leaving. But I admit that I didn't check the epilogue so there could have been a line or two.

[@beregond.]

No need to go to the epilogue. The return to Rivendell is in the last few pages of the chapter "Many Partings". This is, among other things, when Bilbo hands his book on to Frodo to complete.

[@anarionelendili8961]

@@beregond. Thanks! I had forgotten that they swung by Rivendell before returning to the Shire and my mind was squarely on post-Scouring. Now that you reminded me, it was the time Bilbo asked to see the One Ring again.

[@nochsta]

So if Frodo and Theoden are parallels, and Sam and Merry are parallels as their companions/assistants, does that make Sméagol and Eowyn parallels too? Frodo attempts to destroy the ring, and fails, but Sméagol “takes over” and does it for him (albeit unintentionally). Theoden challenges the Witch-King, but fails to defeat him, so Eowyn takes over to do it for him.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Theoden doesn’t really challenge the Witch King though. He gets attacked by the Witch King out of the sky.

[@Cewrin]

13:23 Only an aesthetic touch? Don't tell me you're a 'spiritual boulder' believer...

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

I assume you’re referring to the comment made on the Exploring the Lord of the Rings series by Corey Olsen? What I mean is that the horses and boulders don’t change the effect of the flood, just how it looks.