An Age of Sauron: Explained | What might the Dark Lord’s victory look like?

[@Raeinok]

Witch King: What do we do now? Sauron: What do you mean? Now we can finally play the game.

[@2senz]

Underrated comment

[@glennross85]

Wtf is that from, I know I know it but Im blanking... Edit: south park warcraft, I membered

[@Lord_morningstar193]

i think this is a refference to something but shouldnt the witchking be dead at this point

[@2senz]

@@Lord_morningstar193 South Park episode- Make Love Not Warcraft

[@martzp5535]

​@@glennross85with a subtle shout out to the memba berries. Nice

[@RazSofer-xh3qs]

Remember, Melkor technically won in the First Age until the free folk was desperate enough to pray to the Valar for help so it will be a repeat in the Third Age for Sauron. It would just make the Valar feel that the mortals are not capable of doing things by themselves.

[@s03ran]

Only it wouldn't really be mortals doing things by themselves, but Sauron as a Maiar doing ruining everyone's day

[@captainmaim]

I think it'd be the age of dwarfs. It'd be Sauron attempting to reshape the dwarves one tribe at a time and succeeding only in killing large numbers of them and uniting them under a single Durin. Humans and elves resisting Sauron would see Dwarves emerging from a sapper's tunnel and go, "Oh thank the Maiar, they're here!"

[@Michael-bn1oi]

​@@captainmaim age of the dwarves? Nonsense. They are already barely holding on. Their age is loooong passed.

[@captainmaim]

@@Michael-bn1oi Nonsense, Dwarves multiply under the earth in huge numbers when/where nobody's looking. I imagine a vast empire of Dwarven nations in the East that've just never been relevant to the World of Men. Far to the East, where there never were any elves, orcs, or goblins; Humans endlessly fought one another over nothing and Dwarves made love to their mountains.

[@juho9703]

The attention to detail you provide for this hypothetical scenario is simply phenomenal! I've seen this discussed before but never quite as thoroughly and with such expertise. Thanks for yet another great Friday, Dave!

[@that1otherJake]

If Sauron won and Saruman escaped him in Isengard that could be the making of a very interesting redemption arc for him. Maybe he allies himself with Sauron's enemies out of necessity at first but comes to realize his mistakes and finds a better version of himself in the ensuing struggle. ...which you brought up at the end. Lol.

[@adrian_veidt]

If Sauron wins: Tulkas: *Sigh* Fine, I'll do it myself 🤜🙃🤛

[@esecarolus]

😂 👏🏼

[@disturbed157]

Overkill. Eonwe would be enough

[@KeytarArgonian]

Hell, Glorfindel could probably do the job let’s be honest.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

@@KeytarArgonian No he couldn't, one may even get the impression that he was almost useless during the War of the Ring, just waiting and biding time...

[@cryptococcusneoformans2389]

@@KeytarArgonianwith buff from maiar yeah possible to fight sauron with ring and 9 nazgul. but Tulkas go full WWE against Sauron look more interesting.

[@_spacegoat_]

The fact that you took the bleakest of scenarios and still put the emphasis on the power of hope and new beginnings I think says a lot about you as a person, RD. Much love, friend!

[@onyxalyx6065]

I was about to go to bed... Eh, time to cuddle up in my Sauron hoodie, with my Sauron action figure, and watch Sauron content! My eyes totally won't look like his after getting no sleep before a 12 hour shift. It's fine. I bring this upon myself. Its fine! Thanks, Rainbow Dave! Much love! 🖤

[@dictatoribenevolo8394]

you forgot to wear rings on all your fingers ^^

[@onyxalyx6065]

@@dictatoribenevolo8394 Oh frick- Eru have mercy!

[@imperium135]

@@dictatoribenevolo8394 2 rings on each finger if he wants to rule them all

[@Scar-Predator]

​@@dictatoribenevolo8394 nono, they just need One Ring, with a fiery inscription written in some form of Elvish with the language being that of Mordor, sitting upon the base of the right pointer finger. Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul…

[@jeffrobagman2834]

​@@imperium135just the One if he wants to rule them all. Two on each finger (and thumb!) if he wants to wear them all!

[@jackpayne587]

So good. One of the most imaginative and oddly inspirational Tolkien “what if” videos that I’ve seen.

[@Enerdhil]

It's the first what-if video I have ever enjoyed watching. Most of them suck because they leave you with a hopeless dumpster fire.

[@frankphillips7436]

Worst “what if video?” Amazon Rings of Power!

[@Enerdhil]

@@frankphillips7436 True. The what if question is : What would happen if a super woke billionaire got the rights to Appendix B of The Return of the King?🙄

[@frankphillips7436]

@@Enerdhil That is the real ring of power isn’t it? The power to remake a world in your own fashion! Money, Ring, Wizard power? What is the real difference? We are all Hobbits in the larger Middle Earth. We can choose to stand by and watch our world dismantled and destroyed or we can take the journey to destroy the Ring of Power!

[@Enerdhil]

@@frankphillips7436 Good point.

[@TrueBronzo]

Dave, you make me feel good inside my dude. I honestly don't know how else to put it. You're the human version of the LOTR sound track.

[@JosephCarven]

Sauron: wins Crying Eru Ilúvatar: Hahaha, I'm just trolling! This is also my plan!

[@ItsButterBean1020]

Eru is that guy who depicts you as the soyjack and himself as the chad

[@haleyschreiter9746]

I really appreciate the respectful, thorough approach you take to these speculative videos...and to all your other videos too 😊

[@melissabloom536]

Hello. I only recently discovered your channel and I am now watching each episode from the order of your first one, but I wanted to jump over here just to say how absolutely wonderful you and your storytelling are! I’m a huge Tolkien fan, and I have enjoyed many related channels, but you sir, are truly something special. I’m not sure if you’re aware, but the way you relate these tales, is actually super helpful for people like me who have difficulty remembering names and the language of Tolkien. The smoothness of your storytelling, with funny and interesting anecdotes, and the way you relate back and forth in the timeline to familiar events without missing a beat, just makes you an absolute joy to listen to. THANK YOU!

[@justiniani.4501]

I've had an interesting thought regarding this topic. Given the inevitability of Illúvatar's designs, I wonder if there was a chance for Sauron to eventually find himself regretting his actions. Once he achieved everything he wanted to achieve, and once the world was reshaped in his image, I can see Sauron simply growing bored. When you have everything and aren't challenged by anyone, it can be hard to find motivation to do much of anything. The Dark Lord may grow tired of constantly torturing his slaves, and if one escaped his clutches, he may feel no need to hunt them down. Perhaps here's where Illúvatar's design would come in. Like Saruman may have repented for his evil action, Sauron may begin to hear the whispers of Eru, and he may even begin to question his desire for order and domination. Eventually, it could be Sauron himself who deliberately dismantles his tyrannical empire. Of course, it is rather unlikely, but it would make for an interesting story.

[@nathynorthy6916]

I had the same thought. If evil is purely destructive - and that's what orcs and other evil monsters tend to bring about (destruction) - then once everything is destroyed and everyone either dead or enslaved, Sauron might be left thinking: "What now?? Look at the mess I've created!" The lover of order in him and the fact that he's had his final vengeance against his foes might leave him feeling empty and regretful at simply spreading darkness over everything. What kind of a world would that be for a lover of order? I suppose Tolkien's point is that the desire for order at a psychopathic level only has evil consequences. But there's a contradiction inherent in loving order and using destruction to achieve it. Maybe Sauron would never relinquish his ambition to be master of everything, but he could repent to a certain extent and change tack to being a more benevolent ruler. And it would be that contradiction that turned out to be his eventual undoing.

[@JustFlemishMe]

Actually, I always imagine Sauron as a rare villain who would be happy after getting everything he wants. Politics and economics are his bread and butter. I find it more likely Sauron would repent upon remembering what he set out to do with his power in the first place. He wanted to bring order and prosperity to Middle-Earth. And he would, basically reversing his negative character development from his rise to power and growing more benevolent. Had a sort of fanfic idea tying into this, based on Cinema Therapy's 'Villain Therapy'. Essentially, a therapist has to try and help Sauron, likely using these noble ideas to his advantage.

[@egoborder3203]

fantastic speculation! I think most fans will have imagined what Sauron's victory would look like, especially in that delicious chapter where the Mouth of Sauron confronts the alliance's leaders and he goes into Sauron's terms

[@TheJmlew11]

This was a beautiful video! You are the first Toilken KZbinr I’ve seen to acknowledge in a hypothetical that in Middle Earth Illuvitar is the one who is holding creation, and would lead any tragedy and eventually transform it into greater beauty. Wonderful job!!

[@Enerdhil]

That is why I like this what-if video and have hated all others.

[@geenflauwidee]

There is nothing I love more than taking my morning tea with a new video from you! Thank you!

[@bv_7766]

The new Jackson movie(s) should be about the Easterlings attacking Dale and the Lonely Mountain during the war of the ring especially since the lonely mountain was featured in the last trilogy, instead of a stupid story about looking for Gollum that no one really cares about.

[@alanmike6883]

Agreed And we have a great fan film that did a good job at that

[@SimYn_]

​@@alanmike6883 From 2009? I've gotta see that one

[@dembro27]

Modern Hollywood depicting evil Mongol hordes? Yeah…… not a chance. However, it would be cool to see the Blue Wizards seeding resistance to cults of Sauron in the East.

[@morgothfromangband6082]

It should be about Morgoth starting an invasion of east Middleearth and an army of Khazad-Dum tries to stop him until the War of Wrath begins.

[@2senz]

There’s actually a lot in this stupid story that will basically make it a companion movie(s) with the LOTR trilogy if it is done well

[@TheGoodesBrothers]

Fascinating video topic, can't wait to watch later! Cheers, Dave, keep doing what you're best at 👊

[@j0b01231]

Excellent video as ever Dave! For your next what if, you should do a ‘What if Sauron repented after the War of Wrath?’ Would it have been a genuine repentance? What would Middle-Earth look like with Sauron imprisoned in Valinor? Would Numenor still fall under such a shadow without his influence? Do the rings of power get forged ?

[@Adamadam-zc6pe]

What a treat for this Friday morning!

[@csehszlovakze]

here's a fun idea: Saruman kicks his innovations into high gear and literally nukes Sauron. 😂😂😂

[@CJ-NYR]

Your opening chapter talking about Tolkien’s foundation of Eru at the beginning of time really recalls back his deep catholic roots. It’s a mirror of Thomas aquinas’ writings on the problem of evil in his summa theologica

[@vexxedami7817]

A Tolkien “what if” actually worth watching

[@Enerdhil]

I can't stand what-if videos either, but I too will watch any video 🌈Dave makes.

[@vyzion980]

They are all fanfiction hopes and desires, nothin true

[@Enerdhil]

@@vyzion980 Most of them end up being nightmares.

[@vyzion980]

@@Enerdhil yup. Make a show with the content you were provided with, and it’ll be just fine but noooo

[@wavesailor19]

Thanks!

[@tolkienuntangled]

Very much appreciated!

[@JAB6322]

If Sauron won... The sorrow of losing their loved ones would be unimaginable to comprehend. Sam's family... Losing Sam Merry & Pippin's family, Faramir & Eowyn... losing Merry and Pippin Thranduil... losing Legolas, his son from his late wife whom he loved dearly. Glóin... losing his beloved wee lad Gimli Arwen... who will never walk down the aisle to see Aragorn again. And even worse... Bilbo realizing that the burden he bestowed on Frodo was too much for him to bear and failed Middle Earth 🥺😢

[@oliversmith9200]

Woe falls hard on the enemies of Mordor.

[@rickstalentedtongue910]

Vae Victis!

[@KarenSDR]

One thing that occurs to me is that Gandalf wouid not have left Middle Earth, since his mission was not complete. So he wouid still be part of the story somehow. Maybe if, as you say, Saruman was redeemed, he and Gandalf would work together.

[@VladfishTheMagnificent]

What if Sauron repented? Unlike Morgoth, Sauron did want to make the world "better," in his own warped way. He wasn't intrinsically evil. Maybe there would still be hope for him? I've often wondered about Sauron's fate after his final defeat. He became a puff of wind, seething with rage but utterly impotent. Presumably, he then hovered over the world, watching countless Ages pass as civilizations rose and fell. Being the perfectionist he is, I assume he'd dwell endlessly on his rise and fall, turning it over this way and that, wondering what went wrong. Slowly, he'd begin to recall his true, Divine, origins...along with an ever-growing awareness of how Morgoth had warped him. Remembering the Light more and more, and becoming more and more aware of how far he'd strayed from it, anger would give way to despair and deep regret. Eventually, he'd do the one thing he swore never to do: plead to the Valar for forgiveness. The Valar would then have a long debate about his fate. Some would want to condemn him eternally; others would perhaps be more merciful. Maybe the tie-breaking vote would fall to Eru Iluvatar himself...who would decide to reincarnate Sauron--AS A HUMAN. Given the contempt Sauron once felt for men, this would be poetic indeed. (This could mean Sauron walks among us as we speak!) Sauron would then have to live a righteous life, harming none, serving others as much as possible, atoning for his past actions. He'd have to be reincarnated again and again, living human lifetime after human lifetime, until he finally "got it right." Then, and only then, he'd be welcomed back to the pantheon of Divine beings. Not sure how likely this would be, but it is an interesting possibility. I do see Sauron eventually finding his way back. Morgoth, on the other hand, is beyond hope.

[@stephenblevins3829]

This will make it far more interesting story than the rings of power.

[@klaaspekala6804]

Or maybe, he might even repent after winning. Maybe after witnessing for millennia that he cannot ever bring perfect order to an imperfect world, he would start to see the cracks in his vision, leading him to reflection on the evil he did and he would redeem himself by sacrificing himself and the one ring to rid the world of the darkness inherent within his very existence, thus finding peace at last.

[@StefanWeber-n6e]

Well, that might come even if he won. Imagine how empty his victory must feel sometimes. He might take prisoners like Galadriel, to win her acceptance, that he IS the best solution. And thus, gradually, becoming better.

[@hypermaeonyx4969]

My god... SAURON IS JESUS CONFIRMED!

[@TheDarkLordOfMordor07]

Darkness is good. Morgorth is cool. There are no good neither bad races, all of them can feel love and hate. If none of you see this, then you are all beyond any hope.

[@Owlr4ider]

Was just about to say that this scenario isn't at all hypothetical as it did happen in the second age, but than you finally mentioned it... You covered a lot of different things in this video, some that I agree with, some that I disagree with. However one thing was sorely missing: a Valar intervention. In previous ages whenever the big bad(be it Melkor or Sauron) reached the point of near complete dominance the Valar interfered. If Sauron wins again than that means the Istari have failed their mission, which in turn would force the Valar to intervene more directly again, even despite their wishes. This is especially the case since as you said in the video Sauron's ultimate victory is human supremacy at the expense of the Elves(in the most radical way possible, which I won't elaborate on because KZbin...), and the Elves being the Valar's pet creatures of sorts, will force a Valar intervention. As powerful as Sauron can ever get, he's still a Maia, a single Maia at that. Even a single Valar is stronger than him, let alone an entire host of Valar. Yes, it's as boring as your 'it simply can't happen' line, but it's still true. Lets put that aside for a moment, I do agree with you that a Sauron victory looks like the actual fourth age(from the lord of the rings that is) which is simply put, the age of men. Whether the Elves leave by their own accord(as per the books) or forcibly(as mentioned in the previous paragraph) the end result is still the same. The only difference is that instead of having multiple kingdoms of men with a single one: The United Kingdom of Gondor and Anor, at the center of it all, there will be one kingdom of men led by Sauron from his fortress in Mordor. 1 kingdom removes all those inefficiencies that Sauron hates so much and of course fortifies his position as the ruler of all men, and thus middle earth during the age of men. At the end of the day, my main disagreement with you is about how this age of Sauron is actually going to look like, as in my view it will actually be incredibly similar to the actual fourth age led by Aragon and Arwen, just with Sauron in place of Aragon and of course with Sauron's will instead of free will. Moreover I think that under such a Sauron complete victory Orcs would have served their purpose and will probably cease to exist. Likewise wars at large will cease as wars are inefficient and chaotic, so once Sauron secured his victory he absolutely will clamp down on any wannabe upstart trying to create his own slice of heaven within Sauron's domain. Again, just as with the case of Aragon, same result just by very different means. 'Evil cannot create, only destroy' is a cornerstone of Tolkien's writing, but in this scenario Sauron doesn't actually need to create anything new, just maintain what already exists. Being lawful evil(borrowing from DND) that's precisely his personality, unlike Melkor who was a chaotic evil. Oh yeah and slaves will outlive their usefulness too as slavery is ultimately much less productive than free(or as free as you can be without actual free will) people, as history has proven time and time again. So yeah, the exact same result as Tolkien wrote, just with a different figurehead and of course the lack of free will, which in turn was another cornerstone of Tolkien's writing and the reason why Sauron is still evil. But in terms of actual differences? Not nearly as many as most people, yourself included, expect.

[@gagaplex]

I really enjoyed this. And you're right: Eru's plan will win in the end. But what are a few additional thousand years of Sauron's tyranny to Eru's infinity? This could have happened.

[@Haggen_shredzz]

This channel is the one I prefere across all youtube channels. hard to find these channels with so much true hearted work

[@tolkienuntangled]

Thanks!

[@Gtownislander]

Another awesome video!! My favorite Tolkien KZbin channel, hands down no competition.

[@TheMinskyTerrorist]

I don't like it when people treat the LOTR story as a managed playground for God and the Valar. It's a big cop out that removes all the tension from the story. "Oh God wouldn't let that happen." "The Valar wouldn't let that happen, they'd just do another war of wrath." Frodo and Sam and everyone else couldn't really lose, Gollum couldn't really redeem himself. Why even bother reading the story? It doesn't make you smarter or wiser to think that way and there's nothing to suggest that that's the case. If anything when they discuss sending the ring west during the council of Elrond, it's the opposite. It's their burden to deal with. If they fail, they actually fail. There are stakes. You have to read the text as written, not treat it as fanfiction for the Silmarillion which wasn't even published or finished yet.

[@Enerdhil]

I totally agree with you.😁👍

[@zibix4562]

God/Eluv might have willed it to happen, but it still has to happen. Free will is also a theme in all this. Sauron must fall, but there is no time table to when he must fall. That is also the point.

[@Cristov123]

Tolkiens emphasis on the power of small choices continues to fascinate me. It holds so true, even in reality, and we see the results of tiny choices rippling through time across nations and oceans and cultures and civilizations. I love it.

[@imallrightme7336]

Brilliant. Dave you have left a catalogue of videos that will live as long as the Internet.

[@chrischapman2879]

Bill the pony would have kicked him bit his finger off and eaten it before this happened 😂 another great episode.

[@tolkienuntangled]

Yeah, Bill is epic! Thanks very much for your generosity!

[@neverjabr8588]

@@tolkienuntangledok then , don’t wanna worry bout ya, ….patiently waiting…🧐😎

[@victorianguyen6620]

Thank you Dave for this excellent what if video. After a very stressful day, I am able to eat dinner and just listen. This viedo is reminisce for me of your earlier videos, which attracted me to your channel. So comforting in our ever changing world. I listen to your videos every night to bring me back to my center. Thank you for this. ❤much love mellon, and good night.

[@tidcooney6273]

You perceive that even the victory of Evil will result in the nurturing, blossoming and flourishing of life and hope, and that is why you have a beautiful heart, Rainbow Dave x thank you for sharing it with us

[@futuresonex]

If Sauron were to regain the One Ring it would likely take nothing less than a second War of Wrath to defeat him. (Hopefully WITHOUT sinking half of Middle Earth into the ocean this time around!) The Children of Illuvitar would be unlikely to be able to conquer him on their own. With the One Ring back in his possession Sauron would be all but invulnerable. It would take the direct intervention of Eru Illuvitar and/or the Valar to take him out for good, and, honestly, he should be their problem to solve. His destruction should be their responsibility to deal with. Like Melkor before him, Sauron is one of them, and the Children of Illuvitar were never meant to have to fight the Ainur for their survival and freedom! Perhaps Elrond, as the son of Earendil the Mariner, could journey to Valinor to plead with the Valar to intervene on behalf of Illuvitar's second born children as the race of Elves can escape to Valinor but the race of men cannot. With enough time the race of men might be able to grow powerful enough to overthrow Sauron, but I would hope that the Valar would exercise their power and responsibility over Arda to deal with him without the Second Born Children of Illuvitar having to suffer through yet another long age of darkness before finally having a chance to live, and grow, and develop without being forced to constantly battle a dark ainur hell bent on their subjugation as they did in the First, Second, and Third Ages of Middle Earth!

[@Enerdhil]

Yes. That is the obvious answer to Dave's question. I am pretty sure that the Valar (specifically Aulë, Tulkas, and Oromë) won't need to destroy Middle Earth to arrest Sauron. He ain't Morgoth.

[@MCAPrince]

@@Enerdhil Elendil & Gil-Galad managed pretty well

[@samwisegamgee8318]

The more I learn about Tolkien’s universe the more I dislike the valar for all being idiots. “Yooooo we finally got the guy that corrupted and tortured elves, destroyed all our hard work for the last 6,000 years, and constantly sought to overthrow us and issue a new dark era of evil. Should we kill him?” “No just throw him in prison for a relatively small chunk of his life and then release him on good behavior. It’s not like he’d ever do any of that again”

[@weekendatbidens8652]

Can’t wait for more content!! Personally, I would like another breakdown of the differences between the Lord of the Rings movies and the books. You did one on the Fellowship and it was AMAZING! I would LOVE one on the Two Towers and Return of the King 🙏🙏🙏

[@DShaw873]

I appreciate how thoroughly you research your topics. Well worth the extra half hour

[@JAB6322]

Glad you're back again Rainbow Dave! You're videos are a total relief from the insanity that is Rings of Power Season 2 🥺

[@Crafty_Spirit]

I have a crazy idea... what if Sauron repented at some point after his victory? 😂 Wonderful video. Dave you really have a skill for storytelling 👍🏼

[@almondmilk5315]

If Sauron won, Sauron would've industrialized all of Middle Earth and technological advances would've skyrocketted.

[@samwisegamgee8318]

Sauron would have raised the qualify of life index and brought the Dunlending and Highlandic Gondorian lower middle class peasants above the poverty line. In 3,000 years Gondor was unable to do that. That’s why Sauron lost, the Deep Realm wouldn’t let him implement policies that would erode their authority. Sauron would have drained the dead marshes and get rid of the corruption.

[@almondmilk5315]

@samwisegamgee8318 I agree. The fact that everyone else in Middle Earth is stuck in the Middle Ages is sad. He was the only one improving technology. The orcs didn't hate him like they did Morgoth and served him willingly.

[@samwisegamgee8318]

@@almondmilk5315 Saruman was also rollin with the crazy production. A Henry Ford in the making. Too bad Tolkein hated industry and thus set the tone for all high fantasy works to be forever stuck in the middle ages. GRRM took a page from that book and made GoT basically the same deal. Endless middle ages despite Bravos, Valyria, etc all having super advanced and developed economies. Nobody ever made gunpower

[@vc1396]

Perfect timing. Just about go for my nightly run

[@Cheattoe]

My lord Sauron now what do we do? Sauron laying back in his throne stretches his fingers: now we form a real tax policy

[@RisikaFreeborn]

This is amazing. I also like the thought that it wouldn't just be a hero or a wizard that would stop him, it would be all of them. A hero, a wizard and a slave from inside that helped throw down the dark lord! Thanks Rainbow Dave, love your videos!

[@Zaneth0]

Great video! I could see Sauron's total dominion of Middle-Earth eventually giving him the hubris to seek some way to march on Valinor and challenge that Valar directly. Perhaps, to aid him, he might try to free Morgoth from his exile in an ill-fated attempt to dominate his former master. No matter the form it might take, Sauron's arrogance has always, and will always, be his undoing.

[@llewenthen6305]

Much 👏 applause! 👏 👏 So well done! The ending was superb! 😁

[@27jayway-yc9nl]

Thank you for this vod, please keep being awesome stay groovy!

[@muenchhausenmusic]

I'm halfway through the video. Imo your best work so far together with our series about how to adapt The Rings of Power for TV. I totally get why you don't want to do What ifs, but I think you go far deeper than most here on the KZbins. You bring quality work and that is what matters, at least to me. Great job, I wouldn't mind more of these. But you do what you think is best ofc! 🙂

[@tolkienuntangled]

Thank you very much!

[@PleaseNThankYou]

WoW ! Nice job, Rainbow Dave. Not only the quality of thoughtful research but the presentation was very excellent. Please&ThankYou

[@rod9usa]

Are you going to continue telling the tales from the first age? I just finished the children’s of Turin and I can’t wait to hear the rest. Marvelous work!!!!!

[@tinemarie15]

An intriguing look at what might have been. Thanks for another grear video!

[@Eli-akad]

I don’t care for what-ifs for similar reasons stated at the beginning, but this is an interesting enough topic to rectify this

[@johnsykes9623]

Once again, wonderfull and thanks for all your efforts. Like you say Sauron is a creator and made most of the rings. Supposing he started a new age of even greater rings and in so doing he made the greatest ONE ring, but rather than it being a thing of darkness, it is the mirror, and as dark and evil the first one ring, the new one is light and wonder and beauty and the pure song of Iluvitar before Morgoth's disharmony

[@guy_badly]

Dave, what do we gotta do to get you to do a full reading of LOTR? Feel like your love for the material and understanding of Tolkiens languages are unmatched and would make for a most emersive experience

[@Eli-akad]

If there is nothing legal stopping him, I also subscribe to this idea

[@muserluke]

Really thoroughly enjoyable video. Thanks for all your hard work in creating and sharing it with us all, you did an excellent job!

[@stunitech]

Great video. Excellent insights and plenty of interesting angles.

[@SunburnAndDragon]

Very very good! it was not an easy exercice but you nailed it. Special mention to Saruman's redemption, that is an awesome hypothesis. For my part, I think of another possibility for Sauron to end up defeating himself : after obliterating his past opponents, after destroying totally all resistance, and submitting everything and everyone into worship, Sauron is a God King. He has remade the world according to what he loves : order (HIS kind of order). Everything around him befits his sense of beauty. Except one thing. His frigging appearance, which is bound to be hideous since the Fall of Numenor. It might seem superficial, but after eons of absolute power, what is there left to worry about except superficial things? How can Sauron suffer that he has absolute power over everything except his appearance? It's humiliating. And that's another breach through which he may end up defeating himself because his appearance has been ruined by Illuvatar himself. Because he cannot undo Illluvatar's power, but will try anyway, he would be doomed. Another thing : What about the Valar? Do they leave Middle Earth to its fate ? I find that hard to believe 🤔Surely they react? Yes, their war against Morgoth ended up wiping Beleriand off the map, but Morgoth was an Ainu like them. Sauron, powerful though he has become thanks to the one Ring, is but a Maiar. The Valar have tried to take down Sauron without getting directly involved but in this version, this stategy has failed. Don't they have a plan B? Surely they are powerful enough to take down Sauron or at least weaken him without destroying the world, and then go back to helping from afar? At least, don't they save the remaining Elves, who's Age in Middle Earth was over anyway, and welcome them in the Undying Lands? Also, could Sauron stand the thought that Valinor remains out of his power? Can't he succomb to the very temptation he once used on Numenor's King, and want to conquer the Undying Lands because Middle Earth is no longer enough? So many possibilities... Thank you for making TLOTR even more wonderful with your videos, Rainbow Dave ! 🌈

[@JohnKIGN]

There is a what if scenario I have been thinking about for a while about the 2nd and 3rd Age, what if a Sirmarlil still existed in Middle Earth, would it be more powerful than the One ring or not and would it be sought after by Sauron. It could be a cool video idea

[@lyndazema94]

Perfect video to watch in the morning, whilst on vacation ❤️❤️👏👏👏👏👏

[@rubycube1506]

Mellon nin wake up Tolkien Untangled posted!!! ❤🎉 /correction of the phrase Mellon nin.

[@FinrodFelagundTheFair]

Not to be that guy, but just so you know, My friend is Mellon Nin. I faer nín linna nan glass, Mellon Nin ( I thank you from the bottom of my heart, my friend) for the opportunity to teach a little Sindarin.

[@rubycube1506]

@@FinrodFelagundTheFair not to be that girl but I just typed it the way I heard it in the video and how the subtitles wrote it out.

[@FinrodFelagundTheFair]

@@rubycube1506 I meant no offense and apologize deeply if taken as so. I only meant to teach some Sindarin and not to offend knowing that the captions don't always convey the proper spelling.

[@LindaOehler-gh6gx]

Always look forward to your videos, please be more active. You do a great job, thanks!

[@methodsocratic]

I think you did a fine job with this video. Similar to yourself, “what if” content generally doesn’t interest me, but, I say, well done on this offering.

[@WhoIsCalli]

Beautiful video. And love your closing statements. Nice one Dave 🌈

[@uncletomalex]

Great video !!!! Could you speculate also what might have been if Sauron had been victorious a long time ago, during the Battle of the Last Alliance or even during his War against the Elves in Eriador ? His world would have been similar, but his enemies different...

[@roberthaynes488]

Thank you for yet another wonderful video!

[@northernpaladin66]

What an excellent hypothesis. Well done 😀

[@chrishavard3221]

Another fascinating installment but wondering what the end game would be if Sauron's domination of middle earth was complete....could it not be that Sauron's ultimate aim would be to look to the West towards Valinor & seek ways to overcome the Valar & release his master, Melkor, from exile? Afterall, Tolkien does refer to the prophesied Dagor Dagorath where ultimately Melkor is finally destroyed & where possibly Sauron would ultimately fail too, in the Last Battle?

[@SuburbanFox]

I'm a simple man. I see a new Tolkien Untangled video, I click. :D

[@stevecustodio2919]

I love this channel so much. Thank you for the time and care you put into your videos.

[@Sandbarfight]

Amazing work brother. I thank you for your wonderful content 🙏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👾👾

[@boyholland]

please continue your series comparing the movies and the books, its very good imo and i'd love to hear more

[@davidandrews2972]

I agree that the Elves of Lothlorien are in trouble under these circumstances - they've nowhere to run, with Moria at their backs and Dol Guldur in front of them. However, Erebor has at least a chance in the short term, if they can get help from Dorwinion - we don't know much about the dwellers there but as they're on good terms with elves and Dale-men they might help. Moving on, I can't see the Havens holding out for long - I'm sure that Sauron would look to march up the coasts and destroy them, both to prevent his hated enemies from escaping him, and to cut off the possibility of a ship sailing to Valinor to ask for help. However, before that happens it's possible that men and maybe even dwarves and hobbits might evacuate not to Aman but to one of the other continents. Arda is large, and there might be old havens of the Numenoreans out there that could be reached, either the Dark Land of the South, the Lands of the Sun, or the empty lands made when the world was made round. Maybe that's where a new resistance could spring up, given centuries to grow.

[@jmcoelho7]

Excellent, your story telling compliments the professor. Cheers

[@KeytarArgonian]

‘Alright, but I’ll tie one hand behind my back to make it fair’ *Puts down mug of wine and stands up* ~ Glorfindel

[@robinmiller871]

Only the Valor could defeat Sauron, if he has the one ring!

[@concept5631]

What if a bunch of Maiar gang up on him? ​@@robinmiller871

[@CodyCubillaDrums]

You should continue your book vs movie series!! I really got a lot out of it and I loved it!

[@WhiteMambaMania]

Like so many other people, thank you for all your hard work, detailed analyses, and incredible ability to share so much information in a helpful way. I understand so much more and appreciate so much more of Tolkien's work thanks to you! Have a wonderful day and much love to everyone and everyone's everyone ❤

[@justintheking1]

Another great day with a great surprise of a new video!!

[@esecarolus]

A bit fan fic here: I think if Sam killed Gollum, we’d have had the ultimate contest of wills between Sauron and Gandalf via Gwaihir on the slopes of Mount Doom. I don’t really know what happens to Frodo in that scenario but, I’d guess that he would’ve been stopped either by Gandalf or Sam or both. Unfortunately at the end, if Gollum’s gone I don’t see any other way but for Sam to jump into the Cracks of Doom with the Ring to save the quest. And yes, I totally agree with you: Sauron could just not win. Excellent speculation Master Rainbow!

[@michaelogrady232]

Good one, Dave! Consider the theology Tolkien is drawing upon. It is not that the choices people make are somehow foreordained, but they are eternally known and woven into the music of Iluvatar. Even the dissonance of Melkor was already known and incorporated into the song before the first note was sung. The downfall of Sauron was inevitable. It was only a matter of when. Very astute of you to pick up on that.

[@kroneexe]

Can’t have free will and have it eternally known at the same time

[@SeptimoBasico-nu8uh]

​@@kroneexeWhy not? I mean, at first glance I can't see how one opposes the other. Like, he knows or can know what people will do beforehand, that's fine, it doesn't really subtract from the fact that ultimately they are the ones that make the choice with their own free will.

[@LordTelperion]

I imagine the Elves would do a mass double-quick evacuation to Mithlond to take the Straight Road before Saruon got there and destroyed the trailhead. As a march in force up the coast to take out the Grey Havens was one of Sauron's prime goals it would be a very chaotic race of who'd get there first.

[@thebaconcruesader]

Sauron be like "Ayo, just do what I say" Everyone else: Wtf bro

[@Kaleiddmode]

Looking forward to watching your videos of the second age 😊

[@LOSTKILLERDRAENEI]

I strongly think that Gandalf the White had the power to topple Sauron directly, even WITH The One Ring. He said as much when he first met up again with the Fellowship in Fangorn, that the only thing as dangerous as him was being brought to the seat of The Dark Lord. That strongly implies that Gandalf the White, if the mission had gone worse because of the free will inscribed on the Children of Eru, he was given the authority to act in emergencies as 'An Angel'. It may have killed Gandalf the White to destroy the physical body of Sauron with The One, but he could absolutely have contested with him if Frodo had claimed the ring and Gollum was too cowardly to try to seize it.

[@russderner2596]

Maybe not himself, but with help from someone like Elrond, Galadrial, even a redeemed Saruman. Gandalf is probably more powerful than Gil Galad and Elendil, they beat Sauron with the ring.

[@KipIngram]

Oh my gosh, you really got going there at the end... That music... You could sell this to Hallmark. 🙂

[@drunkfarmer5106]

I can't see Sauron's victory being anything other than short lived as the Valar or their assistants would eventually come sailing back to Middle-Earth to hand the Dark Lord his ass like they did to Melkor...

[@jimm.g3329]

Thanks for making this video. I wanted to watch a video just like this one, about what would Sauron do with his win in the long run, have Illuvatar and the valar not intervene. I also think that eventually he would lose everything by the hands of the second children. Because, if otherwise, what then? Would he rule Middle Earth until the very end of days? Very good video.

[@keyboarddancers7751]

Fantastically absorbing story-telling!

[@passepathe8943]

OK Dave, here’s one for you: if Sauron is no longer able to take physical form and is only an unlidded eye, how is he supposed to put on the ring and regain his power? Once his servants bring it to him, how does get past that particular catch 22? Put that in your hobbit pipe and smoke it…😉 And thanks for all your brilliant work btw👌

[@Reactive_Author1]

Maybe the ring brings back his physical form and wears again?

[@SeptimoBasico-nu8uh]

The whole eye thing is actually just a movie invention. In the books he actually has a physical form by the time of the War of the Ring, since we know from Gollum's own mouth that he was personally tortured by Sauron while being held captive in Mordor. Also, fun fact: Apparently, even after being able to create a new body for himself, he is still missing the finger that Isildur cut off when looting his corpse for the ring.

[@mottwoman6775]

Omg! I am so excited I caught this early!!!❤

[@rjb639]

I have to say, I really enjoy your videos a lot, and I have gone through everything I was interested in. Unlike many people here, I have read all the books, more than once, and for me it isn't about learning new things (which I do in occasion) but to see the Legendarium brought to life, with images, art work and your explanations are great. But, there is always a but, it seems to me the stories are incomplete, there are some videos from a long time ago that never ended. I have searched the whole channel and I can't find anything beyond the Nirnaeth Anoedriah. For sure, there is the fall and Nargothrond and the story of the children of Hurin, but what about the battle of the wrath and the defeat of Morgoth, and the destruction of Beleriand? Same can be said about the comparisons between the LOTR books and movies, it doesn't end and I don't expect it to because it's been a long time. Now, I do understand that making this videos takes a lot of effort and dedication, but there have been newer videos about other topics, e.g. rings of power, what ifs etc. It's not a criticism of the content, which is great and pretty accurate, but I feel it is incomplete. For me, it's just disappointing because I know how it ends but I know a lot of people rely on the channel to learn about the Legendarium, and it simply ends with the children of Hurin. there are references to Earendil and Elwing but that's it. I feel that those who didn't read the Silmairrlion will not understand the first age.

[@Executator123]

Regarding Isengard and Saruman: Gandalf mentions that Sauron knows Saruman tried to outmaneuver him so Saruman has to expect Sauron‘s wrath if he stays in Isengart. He himself is too proud to leave Isengart if there is an alternative so he might end up teaming up with the Ents against Mordor. It is likely he tries to regain power and he is one of the great beings of ME but in the end no match for the ringbearing Sauron. Fleeing would do him no good, his best strategy is to defend Isengsrt against the invaders. I don’t think he could hold it forever, in the end Sauron could come himself which is doom personified but he could hold out long, especially with Ent support.

[@VaderPopsVicodin10]

Cool, man.. always love your uploads! 😄👍🏻

[@StefanWeber-n6e]

Sauron: Okay, now i get me a summer palace in Hobbington, smoke these Hobbit stuff and drink hobbit beer all day.

[@christosvoskresye]

35:10 In LOTR we are specifically told that SOMEONE SAID, "If all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall." We are not told that this opinion is infallible.

[@alexp.7182]

I think that if Sauron had found the ring his domination all over Middle Earth would be much swifter.. I think it would take him a few decades instead of a thousand years..

[@andrewgoh8130]

Sauron had the One Ring throughout a great majority of the Second Age but still did not manage to achieve complete victory over all of Middle Earth. The One Ring's power isn't a magic bullet to achieve instant victory. Sauron would have an easier time in the Fourth Age since there aren't any Numenorean refugees to bolster the resistance of Middle Earth, but I still think he needs to put in the work

[@gordonfreimann]

if Sauron won, that would have been Eru’s decision and nothing could have ever changed that

[@marvhollingworth663]

Sauron sent his Mouth to negotiate the West's surrender in ROTK, maybe they'd try to convince the Ents to surrender at Isengard too. Imagine the frustration of Sauron & his Mouth having to wait ages for the Ents to respond to each sentence. 😆

[@concept5631]

Sauron is patient and schemes in terms of millennia. If he can't completely de-root the Ents from Isengard, he'd be perfectly fine talking to them.

[@therakshasan8547]

The Wizard's staff was the conduit for the former Miar had access . When their staff were broken they lost connection to their former powers . The witch king was gone. But the ring he wore remained . Sauron would just give it to another he would put to being a Ring Wraith. Very possibly Saruman .

[@forteanmobius3272]

What if the end of Sauron was Melkor? Sauron as a creator might come to realize that his former master Melkor is a destroyer, and that Melkor would undo all that Sauron has made. Could this be the beginning of a redemption arc for Sauron?

[@concept5631]

Maybe. Who knows.