Gil-galad and the Question of Canon?

[@tolkienuntangled]

CORRECTION - At 06:22, I say there's no version of events where Gil-galad is descended from Fëanor. That's not true. In the second draft of The Fall of Númenor (c. 1937, so pre-Lord of the Rings), we're told that Gil-galad is "descended from Fëanor". No specific parentage is given, but, Gil-galad was somehow of Fëanor's House in his earliest appearance. By both the final intent principle and the pinnacle principle, this would not meet any definition of "canon". But it is interesting. At different points in his life, Tolkien considered Gil-galad a descendant of all three Houses of the Noldor. Thanks to @Tar-Elenion Maranwe for immediately pointing this out.

[@AlexisLopez-pb8ms]

I really like how you tell these stories with such passion when quoting Tolkien’s words then sprinkling in “he was such a dick” classic

[@Enerdhil]

I guess someone could read the erased pencil marks.🙄

[@hanyolo4131]

Miriel also had silver hair if I'm not mistaken.

[@razatronidiotics9430]

Sir you tell everything with passion and even let people know when you make mistakes, Tolkien would approve I'm sure

[@JamesMC04]

This uncertainty about the various possible parentages of Gil-galad is exactly what happens in mythology. So even in its uncertainties, Tolkien’s mythology behaves like........mythology. It really is as if the mythology were the work, not of an individual, but of a people.

[@christopherhicks8656]

Fingolfin challenged Melkor alone, and fell. Fingon challenged Gothmog alone, and fell because Gothmog wasn't alone. Gil-galad challenged Sauron WITH Isildur, and though they both fell, they succeeded together where each of the others fell alone. And in the case of Fingon, Gil-galad's choice to NOT go alone, is the "mirror inversion" of the Fingon tragedy. To my mind, this is an epic example of Tolkien's incredible use of just these kinds of "echoes" to add layers of depth and poignancy to his incredible tale. Thanks for the video, and for the channel.

[@itsme-gv6yh]

Wasn't isildur was his father

[@JamieHitt]

I will go to Heaven with 750 questions. 50 for God. And 700 for Tolkien.

[@razatronidiotics9430]

Agreed

[@boydsinclair4166]

Got to do the two doors riddle trick… you ask God what Tolkien would tell you 🧐

[@GeronimoPlaz]

God, is heaven just a place where I can eat hot dogs and cheeseburgers all day and not get fat? I'd be OK with that being the only difference

[@cringekiller348]

Then you would realise that He doesn't exist.

[@liamlundergan2751]

@@cringekiller348 hey everyone look at me I'm a cooler and smarter than you cause I'm an atheist. Even other atheists find that shit cringe dude.

[@marcschieer3435]

Dark hair, because I like him being Fingon's son more. Him fighting Sauron at the end of the second age, reflecting his grandfather Fingolfin fighting Morgoth in the first age is simply more epic.

[@MarleyFett]

Fingolfin was a pimp.

[@danielbucher472]

agreed

[@Chociewitka]

silver according of "Nature of Middle Earth" - inherited from his Sindarin mother

[@amansanchez7862]

Hear me out, what if: Gil Galad is Fingon's son sent to safety (because of a vision of his role in 2nd age) with Cirdan. At the end of the first age, Cirdan, in his wisdom decides (to avoid the fixation of evil with Fingolfin's dynasty and Sauron's spies) to have him publicly known as a son of Orodreth. All eased because of: his Sindarin silver hair. Cirdan is doing everything fulfilling an oath to keep him safe.

[@tess5861]

I dig this version. And considering Orodreth hadn't proven himself to be much of a threat like Fingolfin or Fingon, no son of Orodreth would ever be feared or marveled by Sauron. Poor Orodreth. Family members send you their kids because the local gang leaders know you're weaksauce and you just ain't about that life 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@epicsakura101]

I really like this take on it : )

[@EtherealWisp]

This is such a cool theory!!

[@samuelbattershell3413]

I can see this working

[@johndododoe1411]

​@@tess5861local gang? How about Global Crime Syndicate?

[@viktorbauer5054]

"Gil-galad was an Elven-king. Of him the harpers sadly sing: the last whose realm was fair and free between the Mountains and the Sea. His sword was long, his lance was keen, his shining helm afar was seen; the countless stars of heaven's field were mirrored in his silver shield. But long ago he rode away, and where he dwelleth none can say; for into darkness fell his star in Mordor where the shadows are."

[@HumanStyleBeing]

You guys cracked the code. We've been saying his name all wrong. This is what tolkein would've wanted...

[@mytandasouder4485]

Don't remind me 😭

[@pipsqueex]

so very beautiful. this makes my heart ache. as do all of tolkien's prose.

[@wab4425]

I’m crying for The High King of Gil-Galad😢😢😢😢

[@neilf6782]

Dave, listening to you explore Tolkien takes it all away from the regular IP experience (star wars, GOT, star trek etc etc) and directs it towards true myth (Greek, Roman, Nordic etc etc) whilst still retaining that unique historical flavour of Tolkien. I can't give you higher praise than that. Also respect for not treading the predictable path of dissecting the falsehoods in Amazon's how do i say it politely slightly unique take on the 2nd age and just focusing on Tolkien instead.

[@tolkienuntangled]

Thanks!

[@crazydavidsmith]

It is such a deep joy and pleasure to be able to share the listening and watching experience with you Neil. Thank you for taking the time to express your appreciation, allowing my thoughts to echo through your comment. I'll think of you fondly when I watch each of these videos in the future.

[@mytandasouder4485]

@@crazydavidsmith Niel lore? 😧

[@KatelynMrsBamaIngle]

I love the themes of Tolkiens historical values and virtues!

[@stephenchalmers71]

This video is a perfect example of why this is the only Tolkien fan channel I watch on KZbin. Pretty much every other channel, as well as pretty much every Tolkien reference website, states categorically that Gil-Galad was the son of Orodreth and that he was the son of Angrod, despite the fact that this is not in agreement with any published work. It's definitely important to note the various versions of Gil-Galad's ancestry, but the version in the published works should be presented as the default, as it is here, with other versions simply being mentioned as alternate versions that were not incorporated due to being undeveloped and in conflict with other works that clearly portray Orodreth as the brother of Finrod rather than his nephew and the father of Gil-Galad. Otherwise, The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and The Children of Hurin are all seriously discredited. Well done for not getting this backwards as everyone else seems to do these days. The History of Middle-earth series provides valuable insight into Tolkien's creative process, but viewing its contents, most of which were nothing more than notes and other undeveloped scribblings, as taking precedence over much more highly developed versions of the stories that were ultimately published, is just plain crazy. I think it reflects a tendency that some people have to demonstrate how well versed they are with the most obscure Tolkien content. I read The Peoples of Middle-earth when it was published and thought it was interesting, but at no point would I ever dream of trying to retrofit everything that Christopher Tolkien mentioned in it into works that had already been published for 20 years at that point. If Christopher had thought it was that important, he could have published a corrected second edition of The Silmarillion, but he clearly didn't. He even stuck with Orodreth as the brother of Finrod in The Children of Hurin, which was published a full decade after The Peoples of Middle-earth.

[@GuitarTunings33]

Tolkien didn't say that Gil-Galad didn't have purple highlights in his hair and a nose ring so I'm fairly confident when I extrapolate his appearance that he could look like that

[@wangwang2211]

I always imagine Gil-galad shout "FOR THE HORDE" every time he enter battle.

[@terrystewart1973]

There is of course a way in which both origin stories for Gil-Galad could be true. If Fingon had a Sindarin wife (maybe a close relation of Cirdan for example) and daughter, unrecorded by Tolkien, and if that daughter was the unnamed wife of Orodreth (brought up as Sindarin after Fingon's death) then Gil-galad would be both descended from Fingon (his grandson rather than son), and descended from the golden house of Finarfin, uniting both houses of the Noldor. That would then explain why the high kingship went to Turgon, Gil-Galad's uncle in this case. Maybe I've missed something,

[@BronzetheGolden]

This should be canon now

[@12classics39]

But then Orodreth and his wife would be first cousins once removed. Elves don’t usually marry such close kin. I think it’s more likely that Gil-Galad was biologically someone else’s child, who Fingon fostered/adopted for safety, then the transfer was made to Orodreth when Sauron began targeting Fingolfin’s line.

[@11thriddler17]

Those last words, near 3 minutes or so near the end about what his work is and what his world is and what it all represents and the thought on cannon and why anyone would watch this till the end, absolutely beautifully said!!

[@AlejandroBetancourtweb]

Dude! Your unrivalled knowledge of Tolkien's mythology makes me, with each video, love his lifeworks more and more. Truly, it is a privilege to watch and listen to your analysis, in-depth knowledge of Tolkien's life and your views of how this mythology world could be explored. You've earned your way to my TOP 3 Favorite KZbinrs and I truly appreciate every nugget of knowledge you share with us. MASSIVE THANK YOU, Stay groovy Rainbow Dave!

[@hanna333]

What are the other two KZbinrs?

[@AlejandroBetancourtweb]

@@hanna333 hi! Well I love astronomy and science fiction so John Michael Godier's Channel is one, the other, since I also love music is the channel by Rick Beato. And since I also love history, Paul Cooper 's channel Fall of Civilizations is without a doubt, out of contest.

[@hanna333]

@@AlejandroBetancourtweb Do you know Adam Neely? Or Astrum (Alex McColgan's channel)? If not I recommend them for high quality music and astronomy content. I know Rick's channel and I will definitely check out John's. I discovered Dave not so long ago and he immediately became one of my favorites as well 😁

[@fran5594]

Was not expecting a real history lesson, that was so cool! Imagining the fall of gondolin being written in a trench in France gives it a different feel.

[@AlexisLopez-pb8ms]

I sure hope this channel gets a lot more traffic and subscribers. After rings of power we need more content that respects and is passionate for Tolkien lore.

[@mytandasouder4485]

I hadn't read anything much since highschool. So for about five years. Saw the fellowship of the ring for $3 in my local Dollar general. Didn't really plan on reading it. I had never watched the movies. Despite knowing almost nothing about "Lord of the rings" and knowing legitimately nothing at all about J.R.R. Tolkien I decided to take a peak into the book. Other than being a musician I had never been so emersed in anything the way I was while reading the fellowship of the ring. Took me a bit to get into the book. By the end I was asking for the other two books for Christmas. Fell in love immediately with the Silmarillion. I still have so many books to add to my Tolkien collection to. Tolkien truly created a world the likes I had never known before and wish I could find somewhere else.

[@johnoddo8210]

Man that last 15 minutes of the video really needs to be it’s own video! I feel like if more people knew the story of how Tolkien came up with all his stories the more would appreciate the lore.

[@paulemge9156]

If I need to pick canon, it would be LOTR,the Silmarillion, the Hobbit and the rest of the published material, in that order. Also i would love to be able to go back in time and give Tolkien a modern word processor so he could save and edit his work quicker and more efficiently 😊

[@dansmart3182]

If we choose the lens of Canon vs non canon then the Silmarillion seems to stick out here... It is a work that wasn't published by the author, and as far as we can tell was never meant to be published by the author.... its hard to call that canon. It is good, and worthy... but we can't call it canon.

[@danubiosalas4231]

I would say Hobbit, LOTR, Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales. All within the “supervision” of the Letters, IMHO the highest level of expression of JRRTolkien wish

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

Well yes and no, it was intended to be published. we know this because Tolkien tried to get it published while he was alive, however its also known he was in the process of reworkingband expanding it and thus its not in a form he was happy with. It should thus be considered in universe myth and history, ie thus not 100% reliable but the events happened more or less.

[@meganfoster8838]

Actually, I wouldn't give him a word processor, because he saved early paper drafts but it's super-easy to delete old electronic versions. As I always say, electronic formats change but hard copy is forever.

[@dawahaddict]

Couldn’t he still be son of Fingon with silver hair? If there’s reason to think his mother could have been of the Sindar, couldn’t she have passed on the silver hair of the family of Thingol to him?

[@yaseminbayramoglu7967]

My heart was filled with love listening to your admiration of Tolkien, I feel so lucky that I was born much later than him and beheld the genius of such a human.

[@godlessrod6910]

I came to realize that what i like and respect from all the Tolkien channels that I follow is the sense that each of them is talking about their take on the lore, to us the less enlightened, as if J.R.R. was there... As if he was sitting in his chair, watching you tell us about a fragment of this story we all cherish. I can almost feel the narrator looking up to the heavens, better still, looking west and asking: did I get it right? Do I deserve to speak about it? some sort of reverence that only comes from deep love and respect. Few things give me this mixture of chills and peace... Keep it up!

[@rogersmith3657]

That is a beautiful observation on the impact of all Dave's videos and I can second it entirely!

[@shehassee]

My main influence of how to pronounce Gilgalad’s name is hearing Tolkien himself reading the poem mentioned. Back in 1972 or so I came upon a cassette tape in my high school library on which Tolkien read many of his poems and sang a couple songs he had made the tunes for. I have never heard of that tape again, sadly. On that tape Tolkien pronounced Gilgalad with the emphasis on the first syllable.

[@stevenlowe3026]

You can here Tolkien reciting the poem here - kzbin.info/www/bejne/pGmVZmWirc2crJY - to my ear, he places equal emphasis on the first two syllables.

[@mumbo-jumbo7917]

AMAZING VIDEO DAVE! IM TRYING TO SAY IT AS LOUDLY AS I CAN! The respect you show for Tolkien warms the heart! You know how to truly honor him. Thank you again, Dave!

[@tolkienuntangled]

Thanks!

[@torontocitizen6802]

Thank you so much for this channel!! I love your content!

[@BrianStorm742]

Okay I already had high hopes for this video but it just completely knocked it out of the ballpark in ways I could never have anticipated. Well done, Rainbow Dave! I cannot put into words how stoked I am for the Children of Húrin. I have massive ADHD so trying to read the Silmarillion myself is just not an option for me. These videos are fantastic. I've heard The Children of Húrin is arguably the best First Age tale, so I am really excited.

[@crazydavidsmith]

I am awestruck by the depth of this video and these comments. I'm impressed, inspired, and fulfilled to see so many people participating in this fun and passionate discussion. I'm subscribed to so many channels, but these videos and you all going so hard in the paint are so awesome; it all moves my heart to be so lucky to listen to your thoughts. Thank you, all of you.

[@Rootcauz]

This is probably the best breakdown of canon of the legendarium I have ever heard. Every video you post is immediately consumed by myself and my family. Thanks so much Tolkien Untangled. ❤❤

[@danfirth7831]

I'm creating my own head Canon now as I love the idea of Gil-Galad with silver hair. I'm gonna go with him being a son of Orodreth. Finarfin's wife is Earwen of the Teleri (who I believe do have silver hair). This silver hair exists as a recessive gene passed down Finarfin's lineage. Orodreth I think married one of the Sindar, who also have silver hair. Silver hair Gil-Galad is a result of his recessive silver gene from Earwen meeting the silver hair gene of his mother. This makes him the son of Orodreth, as Tolkien intended, and plausibly explains the silver hair. I agree being a son of Fingon works better with the published material, but my dude Gil-Galad is now a silver haired son of Orodreth in my head Canon. Great video, really enjoyed this one, thank you so much for the work you do. It's really appreciated.

[@jonathanbeeson9471]

I love your passion for Tolkien!! It makes me feel good to know there are other people out there who are REALLY obsessed with Tolkien’s incredible body of work ( and Christopher too to be fair, since without him he wouldn’t even have most of it - I shudder to think) and who never tire of rereading and listening again and again.......and again

[@Tar-Elenion]

Gil-galad first appears as a Fëanorian (of unknown descent) in the Fall of Numenor (II) (HoME 5). This is dated to not later than 1937: "And he took counsel with the Elves that remained in Middle-earth (and these abode then mostly in Beleriand); and he made a league with Gil-galad the Elf-king who was descended from Fëanor." In the original (I) versions of Many Meetings/Council of Elrond (At Rivendell, HoME VI), dated to December 1938, Elrond states that Gil-galad is a descendant of Fëanor (which ties in with the original FNII): "And he made an alliance with the Elf-king of those lands, whose name is Gilgalad (Starlight), a descendant of Fëanor the renowned. I remember well their council - for it reminded me of the great days of the ancient war, so many fair princes and captains were there, yet not so many or so fair as once had been.'"

[@tolkienuntangled]

Well there you go, thanks for sharing this. I guess Gil-galad was at one point descended from all three sons of Fëanor. Fascinating!

[@Tar-Elenion]

​@@tolkienuntangled I did an essay a couple of decades ago on the variant parentages of Gil-galad. It has *not* been updated to include information from Nature of Middle-earth (the colour of Gil-galad's hair is from a 1959, not '69, note): This is intended to be a 'primary world' history of the parentage of Orodreth and Gil-galad and related matters. It seems that Orodreth is the son of Finarfin (who was earlier named Finrod), third son (and fifth child) of Finwe, up through 1958. He appears as such in the 'Annals of Aman' (HoME 10), the 'Later Quenta Silmarillion (I)' (HoME 10 and 11), and the 'Grey Annals' (HoME 11). These were initially written in ca. 1950-1952. Corrections and emendations were made to these manuscripts and amanuensis typescripts, including these changes, were made in 1958. Finarfin in these typescripts is still called Finrod and his son Finrod Felagund is named Inglor. Later JRRT begins to emend these typescripts with changes including the names of Finrod and Inglor to Finarfin and Finrod and indications of the removal of Orodreth from among Finarfin's children. Finarfin is named Arafinwe in the earlier versions of 'Finwe and Miriel' which are dated to 1958 or earlier. The first unaltered appearence of the name: Finarfin (or Finarphin) is in the later versions of 'Finwe and Miriel' and the 'Later Quenta Silmarillion (II)' dated to 1959 (or later); while Finrod (for previously Inglor) is in the 'Athrabeth' also dated to 1959 (or later). In the 'Elessar' essay (UT) Galadriel refers to herself as the last of Finrod's children, and names Angrod, Aegnor and Felagund as the others but fails to mention Orodreth, who CT notes was removed and placed a generation down. Gil-galad first appears as a Feanorian (of unknown descent) in the Fall of Numenor (II) (HoME 5). This is dated to not later than 1937. In the original (I) versions of Many Meetings/Council of Elrond (At Rivendell, HoME VI), dated to December 1938, Elrond states that Gil-galad is a descendant of Feanor (which ties in with the original FNII). On an 'isolated' sheet associated with (III) version Gil-galad is said to be son of 'Fin...' where the writing is illegible (CT notes that the fourth letter is _possibly_ an 'r' but the name is definitely not Finrod), this is struck out and 'Inglor?' is written in, this possibly dates to 1939 or early 1940 (HoME VII). Though marked with a query this agrees with the (III) version which has Gil-galad as son of Felagund seemingly through its association with the new ending to the Fall of Numenor II which was revised at the time of the writing of the third version of the Council of Elrond. In an early alteration to the Quenta Silmarillion text of HoME V, Felagund is mentioned as having a wife (Meril) and their son is Gil-galad. In the T3 version of the Tale of Years (of the Second Age) Gil-galad is the son of Felagund and this is also the case with 'Of the Rings of Power'. 'RoP' was extant (in versions) by 1948 (L. 115), while the 'T3' version is no later than August of '50 and was likely written in 1949 (PoME). At this point it seems that we have Orodreth as the son of Finarfin (or rather Finrod) through 1958. Gil-galad is a Feanorian from ca. 1937 through ca. 1939. Gil-galad is the son of Finrod (or rather Inglor) Felagund from ca. 1940 until ca. 1949. In the Grey Annals it is said that Felagund had no wife and this is consistant with Annals of Aman and the Later Quenta Silmarillion. That Felagund had no wife is maintained up until Dec. 1959. In a 'pencilled note' on the amanuensis typescript of the Grey Annals Fingon is noted as the father of Gil-galad. In a note (likely dated to Dec. 1959) to the genealogies (Finrod) Felagund is again given a son, Artanaro Rhodothir, otherwise known as Orodreth father of Finduilas. Later JRRT noted that Finrod had no child and had left his wife in Aman. At this point Orodreth is now made the son of Angrod (and renamed Artaresto) (PoME). Now referring back to the 'Elessar' essay which must date from the time before 'Inglor' became 'Finrod' as Finrod (ie Finarfin) is Galadriel's father but after or about the time Orodreth is made her nephew. That would tend to date the Elessar essay to late 1959 or 1960 (which may indicate that the 'Athrabeth' should be dated into 1960 as it seems that name Finrod was not given to Inglor until after Orodreth had been removed as his brother). In 'Aldarion and Erendis' Gil-galad is named 'Finellach Gil-galad of the House of Finarfin'. In UT CT dates this work to 1965, though in PoME he says this might be dated to 1960. JRRT notes this work as 'nearly complete' in September of 1965 (L. 276). It seems that this must be later than the 'Elessar' story (as Finarfin is used for Finrod). But it is not impossible that Finarfin maintained the name Finrod for a time as well before it was decided that Felagund should receive it. Gil-galad is also called Finellach the 'Description of the Island of Numenor'. It is not noted what parentage Gil-galad had as 'Finellach', though CT notes this preceded by some time the making of Gil-galad into the son of Orodreth, which happened in August of 1965 when 'scribbled at great speed' a note, suggesting that Gil-galad (here named Rodnor/Artanaro) should be the son Orodreth (Artaresto), son of Angrod, was written. In the Elessar essay Celebrimbor is noted as a jewel smith of Gondolin, though in a note JRRT wrote against that essay he says it would be better to make Celebrimbor a descendant of Feanor (PoME). This happened with the Second Edition of RotK (1966). JRRT noted in one of his copies of this edition that Celebrimbor had grown to love Finrod and his (unnamed) wife while dwelling as a refugee in Nargothrond. In the 1968 Shibboleth of Feanor, Orodreth is noted as 'Artaher' the son of Angarato (Angrod) and Eldalote. Gil-galad (Ereinion) is referred to with the Finarfinians and in a footnote is said to be the son of Artaher. Orodreth is son of Finarfin until (it seems) 1959. Towards the end of 1959 he is made the son of Finrod Felagund. But this is then emended to the son of Angrod, since Finrod had no wife. However in an undated note on a 1966 copy of RotK Finrod is said to have a wife (in Nargothrond). In the Shibboleth there is no mention of his having a wife. Through the 1950's Gil-galad was no longer Finrod's son as Finrod had no wife, and he was noted as the son of Fingon on the 1958 typescript. Gil-galad returns to being a Finarfinian in the '60's (possibly as late as 1965 or as early as 1960). But who was his father considered to be in the Aldarion and Erendis essay, before he was made the son of Orodreth? We only have him being of the 'House of Finarfin'. When was the note made on the Second Edition of RotK that suggests Finrod did have a wife in exile? What was Gil-galad's lineage when he was descended from Feanor?

[@tolkienuntangled]

​@@Tar-Elenion Thanks for this. I've added a correction in the pinned comment.

[@MrDiomedes1977]

@@tolkienuntangled Royalty went to Fingolfins House because Feanor and his sons deeds, so he couldnt be High King and a descendant of Feanor. Only the Fingon son origin works.

[@kevinsullivan3448]

I have the Peoms and Songs of Middle Earth, read by JRR himself, and he pronounced Gil-Galad like you do. That settled it for me.

[@kellydavidson3379]

Although I adore both Finarfin and Finrod, I believe Gil-galad is the son of Fingon. I have read the Silmarillion too many times (and the History of Middle Earth volumes exactly 0 times) to think otherwise. Did I miss this in your discussion, but didn't Eärwen (Finarfin's Teleri wife) have silver hair, which is why Galadriel has both silver and gold hair? I'm certainly not an expert on elven genetics, but isn't it possible that Gil-galad received the genes of his foremother Eärwen, regarding his hair color, but not Finarfin's? That would be consistent with Gil-galad as Orodreth's son, which seems consistent with Tolkien's later writings. To me this seems likely to be the author's intent ... even if the last High King of the Noldor will always have dark hair in my imaginings. And, more importantly, without the confusion and controversy regarding this family tree and the overarching question of canon, you would not have made this excellent video! How tragic would that be?

[@SirielleArt]

Yes, I have the same feeling - the silver hair are after Eärwen, so strengthen Orodreth as being the father. Still GG is dark haired in my mind, it will take some time to adjust. And if not that note on silver hair, he could be dark haired no matter who was the father simply after his Sindarin mother. But she could also be the source of silver hair if Fingon was his father ;)

[@lukeblundell5610]

We have SO much to thank Christopher for... Tolkien worked for his whole life on this but it NEEDED that care after life to compile the world.

[@katharinaachleithner1001]

Great video, but I don't see why the silver hair would make Gil-Galad some special, third option? It seems more plausible to me to just interpret "silver Gild-Galad" as either Fingon or Orodreth marrying a Sindar (or other) elf with silver hair and Gil-Galad simply inheriting his silver hair from his mother, or possibly even a grandparent. There is no reason to assume hair color should only be inherited from the father, especially when there are canon examples of elves who inherited their hair colors from their mother's side of the family.

[@quixotiq]

Exactly. Also tolkien's writing feels so real partly because of the differences. Reality is never as tidy as the human brain would make it

[@vc1396]

I like the idea of Gil-Galad having silver hair yet somehow still being a descendant of Fingolfin's line

[@stevenklimecky4918]

Best analyses of Tolkien on KZbin. This is an important and valuable one!

[@philipmarsh2172]

Sam’s recitation of “The Fall of Gil-Galad” was the first LOTR poem that got me interested in the deeper legendarium. It was still many years before I developed the capacity to complete the Silmarillion though.

[@caladen182]

In regards to Tolkien updating his Legenarium (more scientific from the beginning, the Hobbit scaled for an older audience, etc.) I heard someone say that in this too, there are some things even a master can only create once. Totally blew my mind. The Master world builder put forth his power, and gave us a stunning creation. Of course the metaphor breaks down, but I was captivated by the comparison between Tolkien and his characters. He was so in touch with reality.

[@christianstibich7454]

Great video, as always Dave! I love when you surprise me with videos that come in days other than Friday!

[@aguata6]

I absolutely love all of your videos-I have not the words to express how much!! A million thanks!!

[@GreatGreebo]

It’s 4am here and you just made the start of my day *so much better* with this video! Thank you Rainbow Dave🤘

[@hennakaren]

I’ll add my thanks to the chorus here, Dave. What an enjoyable exploration! I’ve always pictured Gil-galad with both ebony and silver hair. I didn’t ask myself why, but I think it’s because of his name. My imagination made his aspect like a field of stars in the deep night sky of the mountains. Thanks again for such a thorough look at the concept of “cannon”. I had not broken it down in such a way before, but I do intuitively lean into answering such questions in the context of the rest of the works. For example, Balrogs don’t have wings in my mind because as cool as that would look, they consistently fall to their deaths. One of the things I love about this work is that there are still so many mysteries to be explored. You are a wonderful companion on that road. Cheers!

[@astridchladek1927]

Oh what a joy! I will only be able to watch it fully today in the evening as I am back at work after 9 weeks of knee-injury and the days seem so full … but the knowledge that this video is waiting for me after a full day of work, kids and family is sweet and wonderful! Like beginning to read Tolkien and knowing there are so many wonderfully written pages waiting for you…😊 thank you very much as always Rainbow Dave 🌈💖

[@tolkienuntangled]

Hope you enjoy it!

[@enitar8290]

I am fascinated how deep you dig and how well you know Tolkien's heritage. True respect. Gil Galad for me was always one of the most mysterious characters of The Silmarillion and I value your research a lot.

[@lizziesmusicmaking]

When writing fanfics, I usually use Gil-galad son of Orodreth, but raised by Cirdan. The backstory I came up with was this: Gil-galad is born in Tol Sirion during or a year or two prior to the Dagor Bragollach. During the Dagor Bragollach, Orodreth's wife and kids are evacuated to Nargothrond but Orodreth stays to fight, coming to Nargothrond when defeated by Sauron. Orodreth was severely impacted by the mental battle with Sauron and has PTSD and is not terribly functional. Then Beren arrives, Finrod goes off on the quest, and Curufin and Celegorm start throwing their weight around, and Celegorm makes eyes at Finduilas. Orodreth decides the kids aren't safe and sends them to Cirdan because the journey is safer than the one to Fingon while Sauron holds Tol Sirion. Then Finrod dies, and Celegorm and Curufin are cast out of Nargothrond. Orodreth asks Cirdan for his kids back. "I have a really bad feeling about this" says Cirdan insisting he has forseen they will both die if they return to Nargothrond. Finduilas misses Gwindor and is a legal adult (if only barely) and doesn't believe Cirdan and insists on going home. Cirdan talks Orodreth's messengers into leaving Gil-galad with him - he was very insistant because he can see that Gil-galad has a major role to play and that Nargothrond will destroy all hope for that brighter future. Gil-galad is unhappy about this, but he's a child and no one listens. The Havens prove unsafe after the Nirnaith and Cirdan and Gil-galad flee to Balar, which happens to be the backup plan for if Nargothrond falls that Cirdan and Finrod made a long time ago. Orodreth grumbles, but since Gil-galad's already on Balar... so Orodreth is annoyed at Cirdan but without Turin there to sway him he lets Cirdan have his way. Such refugees from Nargothrond as survive travel to Balar, where they attach themselves to Gil-galad. He's still not quite of age yet, but Turgon is incommunicado and completely useless as a leader if you aren't in Gondolin. So he starts taking on a leadership role with Cirdan's help. And then the Gondolin refugees settle in Sirion, bringing word that Turgon is dead, and Gil-galad is now High King. Fortunately he is legally old enough now (barely) even if not enough for everyone to take him seriously. I cobbled it together out of reading every piece of Tolkien's legendarium I could find, plus reading lots of other people's fanfics, and then stringing together everything in a way that made sense to me. I can't claim originality in having a House-Finarfin Gil-galad who was raised by Cirdan, for example. I may also have given him dark hair, on the grounds that dark seems to be the most common color for elves and we don't know his mother's hair color and I'm not even completely sure Orodreth had blond hair. It is likely he did, but we know nothing about Orodreth's mother Eldalote beyond the name.

[@HappyMetalGeek]

Absolutely love your deep lore discussions. This one is absolutely brilliant. Gil-Galad is bad ass and love the symmetry of of the dark haired version.

[@HectorDiez]

Amazon Made a huge mistake not hiring you for Rings of Power. This is by far the best Tolkin channel. Also, I like Gil-Galad with dark hair more ♡♡

[@Agreus93]

Thank you for educating me in one of the things I love the most I truly appreciate your work, a big hug my friend Oh, and answering your question...I would prefer him as dark hair and with everything that comes with it. Cheers!

[@stage3300]

Fantastic and insightful video as always. Thank you for putting the time into creating all of your videos. They are greatly appreciated.

[@girliealmighty]

Frankly I don’t have a strong Gil Galad position but I like that we’re back to lore videos! This is the kind of thing I love- sifting through the wild and wonderful world of Tolkien! ❤❤❤

[@thepewplace1370]

Hopefully that terrible thing that has distracted us of late drives a lot more people to want to explore this wonderful world.

[@magiv4205]

This might be one of my favorite videos of yours. I feel like I say this every time, but goddammit, I mean it! You honor the great Professor, and I know he would be so, so proud of you. Your deep dive into Tolkien's relationship with his story and literary canon actually moved me to tears. Ereinion, Scion of Kings becoming King Starlight, the chosen elven hero from unknown origin who was touched by Varda is a close contender. For the record, I am definitely adopting silver haired Gil-Galad as my new headcanon, because consider this: If his hair is silver due to him being the god's chosen, and even the characters in the story don't definitively know where to put him (or at least the in-universe chronicler), this means all three origin stories can - with a little handwaving - sort of coexist in-universe. If his appearance doesn't immediately give away his parentage, he represents all elves in their own right, through all their struggles and differences, ultimately united in their epic fight against darkness - a great parallel to Elrond, himself a product of the joining of the Eldar and all three houses of Men. The final piece of this trinity of "coming together" falls into place 3018 years later - when the Fellowship of the Ring sets out on their quest. That means we get one converging of the narrative threads for every age. I find that thought absoutely beautiful. Gil-Galad, the last High King of the Eldar in Middle-earth, can be the culmination of the line of Fingolfin's epic struggle against a fallen god, he can redeem and unite Finarfin's line, he can bring all three Elven kindreds together via his Sindar mother. And how does he die? Well... _he burns to death._ Mirroring the end of Feanor, the mightiest elf to ever live. Fëanor, who pretty much started the story. And, of course: What else to name this ultimate, silver haired, fate-touched elven hero than after the very thing the first Elves saw when they awoke in Cuiviénen. The thing that even now, after so many ages, they love the most in all the world: Gil-Galad - _Starlight._

[@JonSalsberg]

I think this might be your finest, perhaps most important video yet. You use the fascinating, yet some would say academic, case of Gil-galad's parentage as a lens into the bigger issue of what exactly the Legendarium is, how it should be approached and interpreted, and what it meant to Tolkien himself. I have always contended that Tolkien saw his world as a place in which to escape intellectually to muse over philology, mythology, theology, and metaphysics. Almost like a vast ocean, beneath the surface of which lay another reality, unknowable to us surface-dwellers. The fact that it was mostly unpublished gave him the luxury of time and time again holding his breath and going for a brief dive to explore some more of it. But only little glimpses at a time. Over a lifetime, he saw bits, then saw more, then reinterpreted what he had seen on earlier dives in the light of newer discoveries. If he would have lived a thousand years, this exploration would still be incomplete. That was his joy. Publishing chunks like the Silmarillion gives the illusion of solidity and finality to packets of this world. But I don’t think he intended it so. And the line you quoted at the end from Christopher pretty much confirms this. It is not and can never be truly canon until the last drop of that vast sea has been explored. And that will, thankfully, never happen.

[@brianfrenkel7873]

A wonderful and needed video! I fully agree with all your insights! The idea of canon is so debatable given his prolific work, and it is part of how marvelous it is! Thank you very much!

[@PistonDrivenGun]

The detail and execution of your works slow enough for a normal to follow but also adds great thematics. Taking one aspect of tolkiens works and going into this much detail really makes you appreciate this man and his attention to details.

[@UtubeMyAccountName]

I have no comments on this particular video, as I have not watched it yet, I decided to start from the first and work forward after watching your Harfoot video. I have watched the first 12 or so already. Just wanted to say that apart from your obviously exhaustive knowledge of Tolkien's lore (with which I am not so familiar "yet"), you are yourself a remarkable storyteller in your own right. You bring this lore to life.

[@tolkienuntangled]

Thanks!

[@carlcramer9269]

Galadriel wished to rule a kingdom of her own - when she lived in Valinor, before the exile, before she saw what happened to high kings in Middle Earth. Galadrien's story is all about learning modesty - she may have had quite a bit of progress there by the end of the first age. The mothers are important here. Finarfin's golden hair comes from his mother. So depending on his mother, a Gil Galad can have any hair color from his mother's side, regardless of who his father was.. My personal answer to the question of hair color, I would say silver. Fingon could have a sindar wife, so Gil Galad son of Fingon could still have silver hair. Why do I say this? Well, the name means Star of Radiance or Starlight - what color is starlight? Silver. Gil Galad is a very different name than Finwê, Fingolfin, or Fingon - he is not continuing the name tradition of his family. The Sindar lived for thousands of year in a Middle-Earth illuminated only by starlight - a Sindar mother could very well have named her son and potential future high king Starlight. I write this during the video; its nice to see that my arguments preempted. :) On the revised The Hobbit: A match can be a slow-burning rag, usually of cloth and tar. So potentially Bilbo could have had a match of that kind to light his pipe. In fact, I think a piece of wood lit in a fire and used to light a pipe could be called a match - but I am not a native English-speaker.

[@saelind73]

OMG! I was listening to "The Fall of Gil-Galad" song from BBC LOTR Radio Drama just this morning, while having a coffee, and now I find 1hr video from TU. The day is looking very good indeed. Thank you so much. My preferred version of Gil-galad is with dark hair, because I like the idea of him being the son of Fingon (and I have black hair too. 😄). Although, that choice brings the question of the High King title passing to Turgon, after Fingon's death. But I pretend that isn't an issue, in this case. 😉

[@ThunderhawkVeronicaLazerwolf]

This is comprehensive! Thanks for sharing his actual human stuff!!! Beyond expectations, as always!

[@vogelfound]

As always, well researched and presented. My thanks to you.

[@carlpeters8690]

Wow, did not expect the bit about "canon" at the end. Excellent as always! Earlier bits reminded me of: "No work of art is ever finished, simply abandoned." (various attributions)

[@elMentity]

I hit LIKE 👍 but the there is truly no one button one can push to express appreciation for these thoughts you've shared. Thank you!

[@nefariousorator]

I've always been a bit lukewarm on Tolkien. Yeah, I enjoy it, but I just was never able to really get into it. Then I found your channel, and now I am gobbling it up! Thanks for doing these!

[@GreatGreebo]

I had always thought of Gil-galad as having *dark hair* & being of Fingolfin’s line (but I love the silver haired Gil-galad image). It’s 11:40 pm and I needed some cheering up so I’m rewatching your Gil-galad video tonight. I laugh out loud EVERY SINGLE TIME I hear you call Feanör a dick in a video 🤣. Thank you Rainbow Dave.

[@ute.fritzkowski]

I see Tolkien's stories as what they were supposed to be - mythology. Like the gods and myths of real life, they are maybe based on some historical events, but they are renderings of those events in mythological form to convey moral lessons and experience to later generations. So Arda was maybe always round, and things happened differently, but we can still see the way the people reflected events in their stories. Our mythologies have still to say a lot, even if we know the actual events didn't happen this way. The war of Troy may have happened, but what we remember are the stories of gods and heroes that very well did not but describe the human reaction to those events.

[@TheHScorpio]

Your ending summation that an individual reader defines their relationship/canon is simply marvelous! Thank you!

[@huubie1]

Dave, you are easily the best Tolkien lore channel out there! I've been mesmerized by your videos for almost a year now and I sincerely hope that your channel will explode like mad soon... Know that there is none more deserving of that! Thank you for your great work and onward to 100k subs!

[@tolkienuntangled]

Thanks so much!

[@What.in.a.name.of.Tolkien]

This is THE best channel on you tube about Tolkien on KZbin GUYS! every time when i start work on something and want to know more detail of lore and analyses i go on Tolkien Untangled! Epic work as always!💯

[@forestgreenhobbit]

What a great insight into the concept of cannon. Thank you.

[@MellowMutts270]

Gil-Galad is such an awesome and sort of tragic character. I like to imagine him with silver or golden hair but I agree the dark is the best version. Great video Rainbow Dave!

[@andrewhoneycutt7427]

Your concluding statements always bring things full circle and into focus even after going down the rabbit hole. It is a rare talent to be able to pull so many strings together into a coherent narrative while at the same time presenting an opinion which is incredibly well thought out. We’re all enriched by it.

[@Angrenost02]

Thank you for your insight on Tolkien's lore and the question of canon, I've learned much.

[@holdyourfire74]

Wow. I know this is over a year old now, but this was such a joy to explore. I tended to always believe in "Gil-Galad the Dark" as you put it as being definitive. I still do, but the second half of this video discussing the Legendarium of Tolkien really put it all in a different perspective. It's so fascinating to think that Tolkien originally wanted The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings to be separated from the larger mythology, but that it was so impactful to him that it kept invading his own writing. Wonderful video!

[@eldergranpower]

That last part about Tolkien’s life was so amazing that I want a 2 hour video just about that

[@JP-uf9sh]

Gil-Galads ballade really captured me. He seemed like the captain america of the elves.

[@KipIngram]

This was a bold, daring, and wonderful video - great work, sir!

[@JamesMC04]

That was gripping. Thank you.

[@kyleflanagan963]

I have watched this video a couple times per month since you've made it. It is so well made, so excellent, and so emotive in just the right ways. It might be my new favorite video on KZbin.

[@tolkienuntangled]

Thank you very much! I'm really glad you enjoy it.

[@belleretiredaccount]

Has it really only been 8 days since this dropped because I've listened to it 5 times already. Excellent as always!

[@Liam-Welch]

I think that the version you call Gil-Galad the dark could have had silver hair due to his mother so he could have silver hair and still fit story wise.

[@anneselby2293]

I am just loving your lore videos. Your enthusiasm is wonderful. ❤

[@happysmith6666]

I love all your videos, but your point at the end of this one is so *true* and so wonderful that I’m just…in awe. I was raised on Tolkien and your work makes my heart so happy. It’s thoughtful, and deep. Thank you. 🫶🏻😍

[@MicahSJ]

Your passion for this is so wonderful to listen to! Thank you for enriching my experience of Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion, and all of Tolkien's works!

[@MarleyFett]

Still trying to wrap my head around this. Thank you so much for the food for thought🙏❤️

[@Morgilson]

just a fantastic video, well done man, well done

[@TheCounterCulture2023]

Mate I can't tell you how much I enjoyed that please keep them coming.

[@NelBrandybuck]

The evolution and contradiction inherent in the Legedarium only enhances it in my mind, since Tolkien wished to create a mythology for England and he often writes as if these are historical documents that he's translating. Mythological stories exist in many versions that contradict, and historians often have to read and evaluate tiny scraps of sources to try to figure out what happened and can rarely be certain with ancient history.

[@angelcarretero6092]

I like your videos a lot. The quality of their content is outstanding. It's a labour of love what you're doing and no mistake. I have enjoyed this one, in particular. Especially, the final part. I too love Tolkien's work and I admire the way you display your love for what he created. Keep up the good work!

[@DMF121]

I never had the pleasure of having these Wonderful Works of Art by Tolkien read to me as a child. Nor have I had the Patience Myself to do it. This Channel has Given Me a lot of Wonderful Times with these Awesome Characters! Thanks for All your hard work!😊

[@jessewilliams9195]

This was so good. Thank you Rainbow Dave, these are always so thoughtful

[@tomk537]

This video exemplifies what makes Tolkien Untangled THE indispensable Tolkien channel - the seamless intermingling of lore, context and editorial perspective. And of course - obviously - he is the silver haired Son of Fingon.

[@tolkienuntangled]

Thanks! Much appreciated 👍

[@MrJohobo]

The last section of the video where you discussed Professor Tolkien's legendarium as a whole was just beautiful. Your dedication to powerful storytelling and to bring emotions from your audience is awe-inspiring. I can't wait to read your book when it comes out!

[@tolkienuntangled]

Thank you very much! I appreciate that.

[@josephrowe1740]

Missed a few videos (due to the algorithm I guess 😕) but I cane back to the channel and what a wonderful video to come back to. Exceedingly interesting topic pumped full of all the Golly Gee Info that makes you my favorite Tolkien focused content creator.

[@rorymcclure6092]

Thank you for making this! That was so cool.

[@tombaynes8524]

Celebrimbor to Gil: Galad; "I'm not going to make my family genocide yours!!!!" Rainbow Dave; "That had a much more layered relationship"

[@davidleslie965]

Totally enjoyed this, especially the wind up where you put "The Canon" in perspective. Thanks

[@victoriahopeparry]

This is my favourite channel! Thank you for your amazing work!

[@jdatkin8601]

Rainbow Dave, by now I am sure you know that me and countless others love and appreciate your work. In this video, I think you have surpassed yourself. To me, you are a friend in a distant land, that of the Internet, who I happily sit and listen to while cooking, drawing or making cider. Part of what draws me to your work is the conversational style you have mastered. You respect your audience, you share little jokes and common experiences with you and you make us feel wanted here and appreciated. This video was an absolute joy to listen to and made an hour of kitchen work fly by. As always, I thank you for your work and your friendship. Wishing you all the best, JD

[@tolkienuntangled]

Thank you very much! I'm really glad you enjoyed it.

[@Cblumberg89]

I wish Amazon had hired you and kept Tom Shippey. We'd have gotten something true to Tolkien and fantastically epic.

[@quart-knee-lee]

I genuinely teared up at the end. I love your videos. Keep it up!

[@PokemonRangerD]

Not to call Professor Tolkien "typical" by any means, but here we see the typical tendency of artists to never be satisfied with their creations. The desire to change something because something new occurred to them, or they had a new and "better" idea that they like more than what they produced from the start. Each are free to choose their own reality here, but personally I choose Gil-galad the Dark as my canon. Thank you, Rainbow Dave, for another wonderfully enjoyable and in depth video.

[@haleyschreiter9746]

What an excellent video, as always! My personal take is that if a new reader finishes the Hobbit, LotR, the Silm, & Unf Tales, they should then be considered versed in Tolkien "canon." All the other writings are excellent sources of discussion and discovery as desired, but I wouldn't consider them to be required reading. So Gil-galad will always be the dark-haired son of Fingon in my head & my heart. I found him to be an absolutely fascinating figure in LotR; then in the Silm, I fell in love with Fingolfin & Fingon. So when I unexpectedly came to the fateful sentence that bound all three of them together in the world's most epic father/son/grandson trio...I legit jumped up and did a happy dance! I have a whole list of reasons why I believe GG as Fingon's son is more fitting (both in the greater narrative and for his individual character), and you touched on several of them here😊

[@samueljones5421]

Dave, you hit another one out of the park! Great video, very informative, thank you so much.