The Most Unsettling Argument For No Freewill, God or Purpose In Life... | Robert Sapolsky

[@CosmosWorld]

I especially like this interview, because it wasn't just asking him about why he thinks there's no free will and so on, but the interviewer has already accepted his tesis and tried to think about it's consequences in real life.

[@7JeTeL7]

would definitelly appreciate some entry explanation, but nontheless hopped the train and was rewarded, especially at 40:37 where saposki talks about saving our "hard-to keep" awarness of our machinness (and associated misconception of entitlement/belitteling) for really censequential moments

[@JimStanfield-zo2pz]

Right you like blind obedient sheep that eat up one Jew theory after the next.

[@anneother6224]

It's like you accepted that Covid was a real pandemic.

[@nickyt-grey]

I so love and appreciate Robert Sapolsky. In a world that can be obsessed with mastery, self control, manifestation, control, personal power, accomplishment and choice, hard work etc., he's a humbling breath of fresh air.

[@anneother6224]

He's a deeply sinister cult leader. Do you think the alpha baboons really happened across infected meat? Or that you could rely on his account of subsequent events?

[@anneother6224]

Differential diagnosis. He's a would be guru determined to bend the world to his will.

[@FluttersShy-ln2ln]

​@@anneother6224What makes you say that?

[@anneother6224]

@@FluttersShy-ln2ln Humour isn't always mechanical!

[@KyleBc95]

​@anneother6224 what are you talking about? You did not comment on the context of anything said.

[@cinsolidarity]

I've watched maybe 15 of these recent Sapolsky interviews on free will, and he is amazingly more articulate and profound in this one than any of the others I've seen. Mind blowingly good stuff here

[@stephaniecok3484]

He is brilliant but I think his statements that seem on its face to follow destiny, then when you dig a bit or even hear his first explanation you realize it’s exactly the opposite of destiny in terms of those Destin to be great and those Destin to be evil in current concepts held by religion. Funny enough I am in a very difficult moment of my life and I find his lectures comforting at the same time I see I am entitled and should not be where I am in life, but then he says it’s not my fault … I feel taking responsibility has put me in a very difficult self examination but also I feel I know I can or might change because I have the tools, the ability have access technogy that if I can figure my own ability to change. I’m extremely lucky that people feel bad for me and give me so much because I once worked hard and I have a face and body I try to be astheyivallu pleasing and was born into a body ppl often admired my so called beauty.. so now.. I’m in depression and people are giving me the benefit of the doubt and money and things I feel guilty to accept especially when I see refugees and immigrants not even be given a chance to speak. I’m riddled with guilt and then I start thinking how I did things terrible and I find myself diving deeper into my inability to function and contribute like I once did and I’m so deeply involved in my own failures and that I’m not worth anything, then people give me things saying I’m worthy of things and help.. but why am I more “worthy” or deserving of help than an immigrant on the side of the road begging for help. I feel like I’m in a cycle of self pity self blame. I try to volunteer as I did before .. but I also fall so deeply sick I’m not to be counted on, so I need to help myself they say before others but I’m not helping anyone…

[@stephaniecok3484]

Average person in us legal terms is reasonable person. We rate against reasonableness but there is no actual reasonable person to compare to , it’s a concept

[@stephaniecok3484]

I feel as though Salposky is much less black and white than this interviewer who obviously is searching to be a better person .. heaven

[@anneother6224]

In what way is it "good"?

[@FluttersShy-ln2ln]

​@@anneother6224It's thoughtful, critical and fosters an inquisitive mindset

[@SaffronHammer]

Now an atheist, I am relieved to let go of the idea of free will. Compassion for myself and others has only increased now that I am no longer a Believer. I am far happier and more at peace than as a Christian who believed my purpose was to obey and serve our “creator.” Life is far more meaningful to me now. ❤

[@jgarciajr82]

Same here. Next step of growth will be believing again but in a better way. God is not in a book and determinism is a choice 😂

[@SaffronHammer]

haha! You do you; I trust you know yourself and know where your heart leads. All the best @@jgarciajr82

[@fukpoeslaw3613]

​​@@jgarciajr82How do you see your ideal 'spiritual' future?

[@SteveSteve7590-di2dn]

Interesting. How does the change of believe show in daily life ?

[@SaffronHammer]

My daily life is healthier in all areas. Happier and more at peace. As noted in my comment above.

[@sawyerbass4661]

I very very strongly appreciate that Sapolsky recognizes depression for an inability to see the world through a delusional hopeful positivity. Obviously, depressed people do sometimes get emotionally invested into believing false things like that literally nothing can improve. But the core idea that the world is a disappointing place with a lot of inevitable bad that might not be worth it, is painfully true.

[@suzanne6441]

I've always been more realistic depressed. Give me illusion any day.

[@TheWarsuron]

That may be true for him for many people who have depression there is no hope or positivity and they may not be under a false belief . this once again proves that people can be fooled as long as an ''expert'' says it is so.

[@Rio-zh2wb]

true

[@dieselphiend]

But "bad" is just the catalyst for "good". Duality is integral to multiplicity.

[@Zleec]

I like this, who said this?@@dieselphiend

[@fruko1980]

I find Sapolsky's arguments on the non-existence of free will compelling, especially with the support of the referenced studies. Dealing personally with conditions like ADHD, Autism, depression, and anxiety has made me acutely aware of the challenges our bodies and brains can endure. My own journey has led me to recognize the significant impact medications can have. Surprisingly, I had accepted my condition well before delving into Sapolsky's ideas. I embraced self-acceptance and ceased self-blame because, as Sapolsky contends, I realized that life experiences-from my time in the womb to my upbringing, shaped by parents, culture, and attachment style-unfolded beyond my control. His perspective illuminated the intricate web of factors influencing our lives, reinforcing my understanding that much of our experiences lie beyond our conscious influence. Moreover, the more one adopts the understanding that free will does not exist, the less judgmental one becomes. This realization fosters empathy and compassion as we recognize the complex interplay of external forces shaping individuals' choices and actions.

[@elminero49]

My brother would say, "Excuses, excuses excuses. That's all I ever hear from you. You don't even try to be successful". I haven't spoken with my brother in 8 years. ....and that's fine with me.

[@NeuroPulse]

He's using his free will to argue that free will does not exist.

[@SteveSteve7590-di2dn]

@@NeuroPulseyou still don’t get it …It was not HIS „free will“ but the neural network in his materialistic brain that couldn’t help to respond in exactly this way. The respond would already be different if he ate a raw egg instead of a boiled one in the morning.

[@axs-xq7cq]

Get off the goddamn psych drugs, it's better to do coke than that shit. Then go and take up MMA or something.

[@8JaneSmith8]

Following your logic, all prisoners must be released, as their crimes were the consequences of a serious of the unfortunate circumstances))

[@rachelmac186]

I've thought this way from a very young age but then got sucked into the misconceptions of "normal" society which resulted in years of depression and anxiety. I love listening to him and am grateful I found him.

[@foljs5858]

"but then got sucked into the misconceptions of "normal" society" - if there's no free will, you didn't "suck up" to anything. All your feelings and actions were predetermined anyway by cause and even chains before you were even born.

[@MountainMeg67]

Me too! Glad to be free of those misconceptions now.

[@chrisdavenport4054]

I love Robert Sapolsky. He is why I say that I have a You Tube doctorate on Behavioral Human Biology. (Then I laugh. I watched his Stanford classes on You Tube while doing my trim one year.) I highly encourage anyone interested in this information to go through his lecture series. His enthusiasm and ability to articulate information in a way that is easily assimilated is refreshing and engrossing. Listening to him has helped me understand myself, others and has given me the ability to better understand the chaos we call human civilization.

[@9000ck]

Sapolsky's theory is a humanist one. I've always liked him since seeing his lectures on neuroscience and complexity.

[@playlistofsongs]

It's beyond a theory. There is no evidence, of any kind, that a distinct causal agent (distinct 'self') exists. Free will concepts are just ridiculous things that a majority of humans believe in, and a majority of humans are pretty ignorant/delusional.

[@dieselphiend]

Humanitarianism is a paradox- that's where anti-humanitarianism comes from. We can not promote the human without simultaneously promoting the anti-human. Do we not have enough evidence of this?

[@bradfordlangston836]

​@@dieselphiendI'm interested to hear an example. Not saying you're wrong I'm just not quite sure what you mean.

[@dieselphiend]

@@bradfordlangston836 Hitler, Pol Pot, The Drug War. The road to hell is paved in good intentions. Reality is paradoxical. Good is only as real as we allow evil to be. No other concept in human history has maimed, killed, imprisoned, and enslaved more people than the so-called 'greater good'. Black and white thinking renders us all prisoners in Plato's Cave of subjective duality. Reality has become an mere abstraction, and people are its constructs.

[@dieselphiend]

@@bradfordlangston836 Hitler, Pol Pot, The Drug War.

[@dmshouse1]

Love Robert Sapolsky and this podcaster for asking the right questions-my first time hearing him, Tom. We ARE biology. When I was counseling and coaching people to help them live their lives, I educated them on their biology first and how to use this knowledge to their advantage. I have been in jobs where after being introduced with a snippet of my life in silly exaltation , upon getting to the mike, even though my ego was celebrating behind the curtain, my mind and knowledge would always state that I’ve done nothing different or special than anyone else. I’d also state that the best thing I’ve ever done is bring a wonderful person into this world and would hope he would bring me grandkids. The audience shuffled and were either amused or uncomfortable. This was before I read or even heard about Sapolsky- it’s something I just knew. How can you not? My upbringing where competitiveness was not a value with my parents, but having a healthy self esteem will help me more than learning or wanting to outdo others, would serve me and society better in life. Then, my education in anthropology and later psychology/counseling, taught me the truth that we haven’t evolved for this modern world we’ve now invented and hence, we are a wee bit screwed up. So, per Sapolsky, I am one of the lucky ones. I’m just trying to prove that the tenants of realizing one does not have free will, as I did deep down, can still live a meaningful life. I am done with careers and am no longer in psychic pain because I didn’t play the competitive, materialistic game in my youth. Now, I have my beautiful grandkids and I spend my time volunteering and still helping people navigate a world we don’t have the biology to deal with. And no, I’ve not believed in a god. I’m not into ‘the Universe’ is running things, although I explored that. I do believe in energy and how that can create circumstances that does indeed buffet us around- but since we have no free will, we have to know that and maybe acceptance of the circumstances is better? what we can do is learn how we can manage our reactions- just as Sapolsky says when he’s talking about recognizing he wanted to see someone fry for a crime, but had to pull back. We can pull back and not get wound up about things we have zero control over. Thats a far better ideal to ascribe to vs using your biological gifts to seek entitlement or to hurt others based on perceived tribal hurts.

[@darrinheaton2614]

@dmshouse1 Great comment! Thanks.

[@daddycool228]

Are you exercising free will by "loving him"?

[@objectivetruth2286]

I’ve always wondered about the meaning of life, really as far as I can remember. I’ve always asked a lot of questions. Friends have told me that the meaning of life is to be content in the moment or to keep searching for the meaning of life. It’s definitely frustrating for people like me. I have such a strong sense and recognition that everything, humans included, are just doing the same things over and over, and cycles repeating. It’s as though we are in a cell with a comfortable chair and a fidget toy. and a carrot and a glass of water hang from the ceiling forever out of reach.

[@ltwig476]

Or we are just like all the other mammals in most respects. The squirrel doesn't stop hunting nuts throughout his region when he has plenty enough nuts. He keeps hunting nuts until he is satisfied there are no more nuts. Large feline species will steal another animal's freshly caught meat. In the same, humans can simply create greater profits for themselves by setting less fair wages for others. The only difference is that human's unique ability to reason allows them to justify that their theft is not a moral issue. Which leaves the fact the humans will only regulate themselves to a greater degree than the cat if pressured by social regulation. About the carrot. The difference again is the modern human can reason that it is no longer a real carrot, instead a fantasy football team, a porn star, a new pair of shoes statice. The modern human has learned that he no longer needs reality much of his time of existence. If society doesn't regulate him, he can make up whatever fantasy needs (carrots) that satisfies as a real need.

[@TheBrutuzrawk]

The universe is cold & dark. You are a light which shines brighter than the Sun. The depths of space cannot extinguish you. Even death can be conquered.

[@SaffronHammer]

Having been a born-in believing Christian, I can honestly say coming to the same realization has been both liberating and hopeful. It reminds me of the buddhist principle of letting go of control--or the attempt to control--because life and its events, are beyond our control. There is far more peace that I now experience, accepting the reality of an arbitrary, neutral world, and at the same time focusing on all the good there is, and to love my fellow human as best I can each day as it unfolds.

[@REZZA2020]

Our value is in who we are. We do not 'have a life'. We are life. Societal expectations are nonsense

[@kimlarso]

A persons life is not to be seen but experienced🦋

[@bonnieklapel1825]

I don’t remember when or where I heard this however it’s about a village or tribe of people somewhere that had an extremely minimal crime rate because whenever someone did do something wrong such as steal something from another villager or hit someone, it was usually someone fairly young but not so young they didn’t know that they’d broken a common rule or custom when they committed the offense. Instead of punishing the person they would make them stand in a spot and everyone from the village would form a circle around them and then one by one each person would say how much they cared and loved the offender and tell them all the good things they knew about them, how helpful or kind or caring they were and recount all the good things they could remember the person had done. They felt that it’d someone had committed an offense it was because they had forgotten how much everyone cared for and loved them so they would correct that by recounting all they could and showing the person how much they loved them. The result was that the offender would usually be so embarrassed and would be in tears and would apologize to the person(s) they had committed the offense against and beg for forgiveness and the offender who would forgive them and hug them and that person never committed any more offenses. The result was that the village very rarely had any offenses committed among them and never for anything more serious than that. It might have been a story that Dr. Wayne Dyer shared during one of his presentations. Regardless it was a true story and had a lot of impact on me. It showed me that most crimes are committed by people who feel they are usually feeling insecure, unwanted, unloved, excluding perhaps those who haven’t a normal conscience or the ability to feel compassion or empathy such as a socio or psychopath. When you look at the economic outlook and the living situations and the relationship issues among children who grow up in areas of poverty and gangs and suffer abuse and violence it’s no wonder they have high crime rates. We would have a much more peaceful world if we were all kinder and compassionate with each other and instead of beating children for doing something wrong we expressed more love and forgiveness and communicate openly among family members in a healthy non abusive manner it could change the whole future for those children.

[@zitaelise]

You're describing a Ho o pono pono ritual.

[@EntertheGam3]

This comment is incredible and made my day! Thanks a million!!

[@147Matsapha]

Sounds like North Korea would make you happy.

[@richtomlinson7090]

Nice! I've found that people forgive for more than one reason, and one is to not be owned by the idea or experience, and another reason is to make the offending individual feel something, whether it's shame or love or understanding. It's easier to move forward with these practices. Understanding the concept of determinism and lack of true Freewill, brings people to a greater appreciation for good deeds and paying it forward.

[@naomidoner9803]

​​@@richtomlinson7090 I've never been able to forgive without some empathy/understanding for the offender .... But I have lied to myself trying to forgive for other reasons....

[@theoneunder]

I lay in bed all day everyday. Been doing for about five years. Ain't been happier. I wish i'd done it years ago. Glad i was born somewhere that allowed me the chance of bedlife. It's grand.

[@bobby8630]

Where are you born?

[@averagejane09]

This made me laugh.

[@theoneunder]

I'm still here! 😅 @@averagejane09

[@Randomguy-ld7rr]

Don’t you get bored?

[@theoneunder]

No not really. I have mobility problems so going out can be a chore. A laptop is enough for me to be able to do a load of things from bed. FL Studio and audiobooks/podcasts etc. It's not for everyone i guess but as you age things change. @@Randomguy-ld7rr

[@questionMark4443]

Every one is on their own journey and mind your business and let people be where they are.judge not lest you be judged fits the situation. You want to improve yourself blow up the TV and go outside you’re going to be just fine.

[@MH-53E]

It really irks me to see an atheist chunk a turd quote the Bible.

[@AXharoth]

nice you got nothing out of this podcast gj

[@pdcdesign9632]

Are you too lazy to listen to this podcast? it's ok it's not your fault.

[@jusme8060]

Well....the podcast does suck to be fair. Also, it's clear there are a bunch of bubble boys in here.

[@dvdmon]

I've never listened to Sapolsky, but just reading the description, it seems to sync very well with the non-dual philosophies that I've been looking at over the last year or two, and increasingly think hold a lot of weight. Can't wait to watch this!

[@Synkronized7]

Hey! Its good to see you here, i have been following your comments and contributions on Waking Up app Subreddit and wanted to say here that i appreciate your perspectives!

[@dvdmon]

@@Synkronized7 wow, I think that's the first time someone has recognized me in a KZbin comment from another platform, lol! Thanks for your kind words!

[@kaptynssirensong2357]

I’m going to look up the Subreddit now…

[@kaptynssirensong2357]

Neat! I joined as I have never heard of this

[@CozmoBeregofsky]

Nice! Non-duality within subjective awareness is truth. Free will being a subjective illusion is also correct. Once you fully understand these concepts, there’s no turning back. Good luck on your journey 🙂

[@LoreMIpsum-vs6dx]

Robert Sapolsky is a legend!!!!!!! Totally amazing human being.

[@Lyfesdance]

No he’s a PROGRAMMED MACHINE according to his own words who doesn’t deserve compliments….

[@swazzia12]

He’s not a human being , unless your calling him a monster 🤔

[@anneother6224]

@@LoreMIpsum-vs6dx He's a commie.

[@Kevin-hb7yq]

Robert Sapolsky is one of the most important thinkers of our time. Great interview!

[@debhurd8898]

I totally agree. I love listening to him. He's brilliant and seems like a genuinely good person.

[@antidote7]

Years ago Iuckily I arrived at the conclusion that none of us are better than the other, that any good ways in which we behave is a gift. The fact I can get up a create music, something I love to do, is a huge gift I am thankful for. And there is also some inherited stuff I'm not so happy about lol......

[@gzy4407]

Robert Sapolsky is always a joy to listen to. He explains his thoughts so clearly.

[@MetaphysicalAxiom]

I learned neuro-behaviorism from Robert Sapolsky's lectures on the Stanford KZbin channel. Bestowing education is a form of wealth that transfers from one generation to another & that is the only true wealth.

[@drzaanko4255]

I also realised this at around same age as him, so nice listening to this. It drove me insane for years and no one understood me... I did find peace with it in recent years but I hope more people come to realise it... I must get the book. :)

[@noahbrown4388]

I love Dr Sapolsky! Thanks for the interview

[@ariggle77]

He blew my mind at 135:05. I've always known that religion fills some need for people, but it never occured to me that a person might get a dopamine hit everytime they think about eternal salvation and paradise. I ❤ Robert Sapolsky.

[@jungwirsch]

Not sure, does he mention the fact that a majority of participants in a study involving controlled exposure to psylocybin (the active ingredient in magic mushrooms) called their trip the most important religious experience in their lives? Religion is chemistry.

[@danfernandes2121]

Simple analogy in my opinion. The dopamine response comes from whatever investment you are focused on. Religion is one of them.

[@etherashe5164]

I've been wrestling with the idea of free will versus destiny, nature/nurture, the long-term effect of childhood trauma + head trauma on behavior, etc. for many years now. This interview has been extremely helpful, and has clarified a lot of things I was profoundly confused about for a long time. Thanks for posting it.

[@MirageandReality]

As an unpopular opinion I don’t think his argument completely make sense. Firstly: Let’s say my frontal cortex was damaged, then potentially all that is happening is that I am simply losing my consciousness’s ability to interface with my environment - meaning I could no longer filter and edit what’s in my brain. He use the example of the pole going through the brain of that man and then after the man became very aggressive but it’s possible that he always was aggressive underneath but was able to control it before. Just because my joy stick is broken doesn’t mean I don’t have potential free will. It just means it can no longer express itself. Secondly: Let’s say I could become conscious of a specific cultural and ancestral trend influencing my behaviour in that moment- That I could make some aspect of that unconscious, conscious. But then in that moment I can now choose to act differently. It’s the awareness that allows some free will to take hold. To me it seems like we mostly don’t have free will but that doesn’t preclude the possibility that one could get hold of free will sometimes with awareness. The final argument is about physics and not behavioural psychology… and the fact that there are quantum theories about consciousness that suggest you can go beyond quantum mathematical particle computations which means there could be another layer to who we are. After all 95% of the universe is made up of matter we don’t understand (dark energy and matter)

[@MirageandReality]

I also don’t think that just because this idea of no free will is a ‘stress reliever’ is a good reason to get board with the idea. You can still figure out a way to be aware of what’s going on without bashing yourself and being stressed about it. No one is saying anyone has to do anything. But I think it’s pretty limiting to think of oneself as having no capacity to reach different levels of awareness if they want. The problem is people make it about being superior or inferior. And that’s BS. It just is, there’s no superior.

[@IronPoorBlood]

@@MirageandReality How do you know what you are aware of, how do you distinguish what is real from what is an illusion? We take for granted how lots of waves of energy of every frequency imaginable, all bounding off of this and that and colliding into each other, end up entering our brain and our brain makes some kind of meaning of it all, a great deal goes into "making meaning", and we have very very little, almost no control, over those processes. If by "free will", we mean, an "I", as in self differentiated from others, that certainly is true. But if we mean true autonomy over anything by acts of will, no. Consider, if we could agree on what consciousness is, then we end up having to acknowledge that such consciousness exists in some kind of ecosystem. We are not free to determine that ecosystem, how we perceive it, what we think the meaning of it is, or why we like one thing over another in it. For some fun, have a look at the rather short KZbin "Richard P. Feynman Talks About Waves", great stuff. Even in saying "reach different levels of awareness"... the very act of "being aware", there is no free will over that. This keeps me from ultimate despair... life. I won't argue with someone who has to light a match to see the sun about if there is a sun or not. That is how I feel about the origins of life - there is a "mind" at work, blatantly obvious, one that seems to like to tinker, and it is wonderful, fascinating. Determine things about that mind? Ugh. I hate those discussions, the ones about which God. Older now, I get to avoid them.

[@MirageandReality]

@@IronPoorBlood Hi there thanks for your input. I was hoping someone would challenge me on the idea!. I think that science is such a great helper for this process of inching towards more awareness, in order to know what is illusion I really like Donald Hoffman's Book 'The case against reality'. I think just learning about the brain and how it is not capable of seeing reality can be in itself the process of being aware, and perhaps gaining a spark of what is beyond. The more we learn about possible ancestral conditioning, the more we can slowly free ourselves from it. It also means that we identify less with all the genetic programming so we can be more honest with ourselves, and not try to protect our identity all the time, which leads to more lying to oneself. To address your next point about not being able to control the ecosystem. There has been a case where someone's brain was damaged in the way that she no longer had proprioception of herself as a separate identity, which tells me that perhaps its just chemistry that makes us feel separate. It could be that we are both separate and that our true identity is a living field of consciousness, in which case we have the free will of that living connected field? To say 'we are not free to determine the field' , well what is 'we'? maybe 'we' is the field on some implicate level. I watched the Feynman video. I was also often thinking about all the waves that are happening around us all the time that we are not aware of. Im not sure I understand your meaning, but I think that its not necessary to be aware of everything that is happening all the time, in order to be aware of one's own conditioning and choose to go beyond it?

[@vesem6892]

How exactly would you define free will? I feel like most arguments on this topic essentially boil down to a difference in how we conceptualise the idea.

[@MirageandReality]

@@vesem6892 yes I agree with you. They often seem to miss out on definitions in these discussions. I would describe it personally as the ability to choose a course of action with a greater degree of independence from prior events or states than before. I would even say that free will is a spectrum rather than being black or white and that in the higher freer end of the spectrum we don’t yet have any scientific evidence to declare what is happening for sure.

[@t1pilou]

I absolutely love Robert Sapolsky, his lectures and books have been life changing. Loved this exchange. Fascinating stuff !

[@cdney8285]

I think its important you DEFINE FREE WILL. Because I'm several minutes in and it sounds to me like you're saying we don't have control over a lot of things (which is true, we really don't), but I fail to see how, in light of that fact, we lack the ability to make choices that take our lives in one direction or another, which to me is free will.

[@dvdmon]

The way I see free will is this. Take a decision like what you say, that there's are two choices, one that would lead to a better life and one that would lead to a worse life. You could say we have a choice, but in fact do we? Aren't our genes and life circumstances compelling us in one direction or another? We don't choose our genes, our parents, our life circumstances - not until we are an adult at least, but at that point all the conditioning has been created. That doesn't mean we can't "overcome" some of these things, but it's not a choice in the same way, because some of this conditioning or genetic predisposition makes it nearly impossible to make the choice we are not conditioned to make. We can change the equations by going through additional circumstances in life (say a spiritual awakening or a health crisis or some other drastic change that shakes things up enough), but going through those circumstances is generally not something we choose consciously to happen.

[@latentsea]

“You can choose not to decide you still have made a choice”. Some drummer dude

[@DecentGradient]

You don't make ANY decisions. Your brain makes decisions based on its current state which has been defined by your genes, biology and environment over seconds, days, years, and eons. You just take conscious ownership of the decision after your brain has already made it, which is itself predetermined. That's the argument Sapolsky is making and he goes into much more detail in his book. It's a good read. I highly recommend it.

[@user00404]

What's crazy is that you conflate a will with a free will lol. Read the guy's book, you dont have to agree, but you arent entitled to what amounts to calling him an idiot.

[@kittuojha]

He's not saying that we don't have control over a lot of things. He is saying that we have control over absolutely nothing.

[@tbone9224]

Society seems to me that this thinking of directional free will is enlightenment and superior evolution. I see degradation and society declining which is clearly beyond my control at a macro level. That is exactly why I have turned to God in a stronger faith than I ever had before. It is so evident to me that our free will has once again made a certain mess in this world. Hopefully, we have not refined our world to the point of Revelations.

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

You don't have to worry about revelations. There are no magical forces in the universe.

[@shay712]

Best free will dialogue I've seen with Sapolsky. Other interviews have focused on his argument against free will but don't take the next step and really dig into what happens to our psychology once we are convinced of his argument. Well done!

[@Artbyevelyn]

When we realized that the mind should be the first thing we invest time in studying everything will make sense why things are they way they are. It’s deeper than you think we are not just living to survive but living to create

[@janledyard4403]

This is a primary example of two people that "don't know what they don't know". There is no humility without our Heavenly father. If there is no God, who gets the credit for being humble. We are a spirit, we have a soul, and we live in a body. God's love has given us a free will. This is how we have true expression whether for good or evil. Praise God!

[@greorbowlfinder7078]

God hardens hearts. There is no free will. There is no evidence of free will in the Bible either. That is a man made creation used to blame people while feeling superior for making better choices you didn't actually make.

[@ThorFILMs000]

What is a soul?

[@flutemcglute]

1600 witch trialists

[@mrwesley8926]

A "god" didn't give anyone free will. Show me in your religion where that is stated. Show me proof of a soul or a spirit, if one exists you should be able to prove it.

[@rachelanne268]

Agree, there is a God! He's the best thing that has ever happened to me!

[@ThuyTran-ci2et]

This is one of your best shows Tom. Thanks for putting it together for the benefit of us all.

[@TippapornHeatgad]

One thing that amazes me about Robert Sapolsky is the sheer absurdity people are capable of believing in. Amazing as well is the degree to which he, and those subscribing to his ideas, are capable of denying the existence of what is utterly obvious - that we have free will and control in our lives. Simply stunning!!

[@ihc909]

Totally agree, mind boggling that people buy into this horseradish. Wokesm on steroids.

[@jungwirsch]

Since you must have listened to what he has to say before making such a statement - after all, doing otherwise would mark it as sheer prejudice - I would love to learn where you disagree with him. Have you ever experienced the effect of alcohol? The fact that adding this chemical substance to your brain's chemistry can alter the decisions you make strongly indicates that all your decisions are the product of chemistry. Alternatively, consider that the composition of microbes in your gut has significant effects on your mental health. Are you sure that counts as control?

[@brad1368]

Illusions are extremely powerful.

[@johnnybee69]

You can prove that by choosing to believe what Sopolsky is saying.

[@toriokras1582]

This theory does offer a charitable view of shortcomings. But it also takes away a self improvement option from a self reflecting person. As when a person can observe their own shortcomings and have a sense of a realistic option to improve themselve at their own will. Giving that up is a very big price that this theory is asking for.

[@BlackthorneSoundandCinema]

Spot on comment! You get why this is not a great idea to spread around haha!

[@eladpeleg745]

But then how do we make sense of the two? People really need to know their efforts will yield them good results and honestly, well I can only speak for myself but... I want to know that my efforts will make me a better person than someone else. I want to feel like I'm better than a homeless drug addict who does nothing. If my efforts don't yield that I might as well join him... Yet this desire is incompatible with the reality of us being mere determined machines. One must ask what our value system ought to be under these data.

[@chaptereight2639]

Not at all. His theory allows for change and for self improvement and self reflection. It's just that you being the kind of person who is capable of that self reflection or the kind of work and commitment and self discipline necessary to change a specific thing isn't by chance--you being that kind of person is because of a whole bunch of factors you didn't control. He's not saying therefore do nothing. He's saying recognize the ways in which you having that kind of brain is due to things you didn't control.

[@toriokras1582]

@@chaptereight2639 I like this view much better than the way he is putting it. I hear what you are saying as: you haven't earned your free will, it evolved as a brain function over millennia and it depends not so much on your character but on the state of the brain tissue in the neocortex, use what you've got, appreciate free will as a brain feature don't take as your own merit, be aware that this feature may not work in everyone or may not work all the time. Free will as a brain feature exists (that's simply a biological fact) but this feature itself is obviously not responding to the free will. Instead of denying the existence of a neocortex function we are then clarifying that while the neocortex has the ability to monitor and intervene into automatic responses of the deeper parts of the brain (free will), there is nothing that can intervene into the quality of the neocortex functioning and in that sense it is predetermined by the quality of it's biologically tissues.

[@khanalankit]

​@@chaptereight2639Thanks! This is great answer

[@questionMark4443]

Our intuition is God in us speaking to us to guide our journey through life ever evolving to be free of fear and find a new joy and happiness. Getting rid of old programming and beliefs no longer serves us in our quest for in lightened human experience.

[@Justineyedia]

Fear is a necessary emotion. Fear and desire drive us. Quietly yearning for what you don't have while fearing losing what you do. It's perpetual. A pendulum in the mind.

[@mrwesley8926]

Intuition is a million years of evolution of the brain where if the subconscious doesn't recognize the danger fast enough you become dinner for some other animal. No supernatural explanations needed.

[@heatherwall9571]

Correct. I’ve hd many a divine experience with god 🙏💙

[@daddycool228]

@@Justineyedia Awareness is key. That helps to transcend

[@SteveSteve7590-di2dn]

Finally someone who can truly grasp Roberts take on free will.

[@ReubenMeador]

I don’t know what I don’t know 🤷🏽‍♂️ So let me make something up based on what I see instead of what I cannot see. We are all capable of being changed, great…. there is still hope for you.

[@BuckarooBonzai]

Anything I have is more appreciated due to this new thinking that we have no free will. It also means we need to be as kind to each other as possible.

[@fernando_magalhaes]

Fantastic Sapolsky. Thank you for this interview 🙏

[@BaiMengLing]

Robert Sapolsky is a genius.

[@Randomguy-ld7rr]

Jew🧠

[@Justineyedia]

Jung himself was an extremely sensitive individual. Not many people discuss a serious mental crisis that manifested physically, taking him to the brink of death while he was still a kid. Physicians could not cure him , and finally he had to do it himself by purging a blasphemous thought. Extremely sensitive people internalise even trivial affronts by less sensitive ones and react very negatively, often withdrawing into a shell. I do not know where Jung discussed one’s sensitivity being one’s form of violence. However, someone who knows about Jung’s line of thinking and his own personality can extrapolate it. A sensitive person sees meanings in gestures which were never intended by the person it is attributed to, something that he would never have inflicted on another. This causes severe hurt and negative reactions, often passive ones. For an observer, there is no justification for the reaction. This, to my understanding, is what Jung refers to, as hyper-sensitivity evoking aggression- passive aggression in this case. “Small and hidden is the door that leads inward, and the entrance is barred by countless prejudices, mistaken assumptions, and fears. Always one wishes to hear of grand political and economic schemes, the very things that have landed every nation in a morass. Therefore it sounds grotesque when anyone speaks of hidden doors, dreams, and a world within. What has this vapid idealism got to do with gigantic economic programmes, with the so-called problems of reality? But I speak not to nations, only to the individual few, for whom it goes without saying that cultural values do not drop down like manna from heaven, but are created by the hands of individuals. If things go wrong in the world, this is because something is wrong with the individual, because something is wrong with me. Therefore, if I am sensible, I shall put myself right first. For this I need-because outside authority no longer means anything to me-a knowledge of the innermost foundations of my being, in order that I may base myself firmly on the eternal facts of the human psyche.”

[@notsoquiet6598]

Excellent comment.

[@plantasia4904]

Do you mind sharing the article or book you’re referring to please?

[@Justineyedia]

@plantasia4904 ‘The reflective nature of the introvert causes him always to think and consider before acting. This naturally makes him slow to act. His shyness and distrust of things induce hesitation, and so he always has difficulty in adapting to the external world.’ ‘The introvert does possess an extraverted attitude, but it is unconscious, because his conscious gaze is always turned to the subject.’ - Two Essays on Analytical Psychology ‘An introverted consciousness can be well aware of external conditions, but is not motivated by them. The extreme introvert responds primarily to internal impressions.’ ‘In a large gathering he feels lonely and lost. The more crowded it is, the greater becomes his resistance. He is not in the least “with it” and has no love of enthusiastic get-togethers. He is not a good mixer. What he does, he does in his own way, barricading himself against influences from outside.’ ‘Under normal conditions he is pessimistic and worried, because the world and human beings are not in the least good but crush him.’ ‘His own world is a safe harbour, a carefully tended and walled-in garden, closed to the public and hidden from prying eyes. His own company is the best.’ ‘His retreat into himself is not a final renunciation of the world, but a search for quietude, where alone it is possible for him to make his contribution to the life of the community.’ - Psychological Typology

[@diekritischestimme]

CG. Jung was an esoterical nutcase. Sorry. He was communicating with ghosts and I wonder how anyone could take him seriously.

[@Justineyedia]

@@diekritischestimme that was called a projection. I hope it made you feel better.

[@lydond99]

I love listening to Sapolsky. The more I listen though, and I appreciate his perspective, the more it settles my questions in a creator. I do believe in a creator and that we go on after death. Beyond that I know what I don't know,

[@sebastianciuca7463]

I haven’t read his book, but I highly resonate with the idea that we are all worth the same, no matter the profession. I have been thinking about how life is deterministic for years. An idea that was probably inoculated from the impact theory anyway. However, he seems to have some frustration himself related to the fact that life is deterministic, as it relates to society. He says that we have little control over our lives and that we shouldn’t judge people, but then he goes ahead and judges society “the idiocy of socioeconomic status”.

[@SteveSteve7590-di2dn]

Yh but the fact that he can’t live up to his own standard doesn’t minimize the message. He once said about himself that 99% of the time he’s a total hypocrite.

[@sebastianciuca7463]

I didn’t say his hypocrisy minimizes or negates his ideas, where did you get that?

[@jasonlynch2248]

Is the idea of socioeconomic status a person? Just because we 'shouldn't judge people' doesn't mean we should not judge what we believe to be right and wrong and take action to improve society based on those judgements. That is the 'north star' Tom is referring to, or the 'common good' aspects of Utilitarianism.

[@theereverend2957]

This pre determined universe has determined me to believe in free will. Moving on

[@stopper90004]

So the evolved meat-sack called theereverend has decided it's easier just to jump back into the Matrix and enjoy the illusory steak?

[@josealexandermorales1539]

If you say that your decisions come out of nowhere or are practically random, and you are a believer in God, that is quite contradictory. Your decisions are not governed by nothingness or just a few variables; that doesn't make much sense. Even God or nothingness couldn't escape determinism because if God is eternal and encompasses all information, His freedom would be equal to ours, merely an illusion, and He would be somehow determined to be God. And if nothingness existed, based on our understanding of existence, it too should be determined to be. However, I don't believe such a thing is possible; nothingness is relative in expressions, but it is truly an illusion in determinism. The way you has decide to act is determinism beacuse there's some reasons you can't deny and makes you think that way

[@dandavis8300]

This is a pretty good choice, given all the absurd inferences Sapolsky makes from the "no free will" hypothesis, failing to consider that "blame, reward, judgement" are important environmental factors which may well influence individuals and groups toward better outcomes. But it might be useful for you to entertain the "not much free will" hypothesis, the acceptance of which might impel you to improve your personal environment so as to improve your behavior and future environment. Example: Many people are overweight, because they tend to binge things like peanut butter or potato chips, which they're always resolving to eat in moderation. If you accept as fact that if you have it you will eat it immoderately, you can make the decision at the store to not buy it. Free will need not be involved in that decision, just clearer understanding of the situation.

[@robertlambert4514]

Pick a city. Any city. Where you free to pick one that did not "pop" into your mind at that point and time? Knowledge is power in many ways so don't dismiss something entirely because it upsets you.

[@bairdmurphy4438]

Love this comment well done m8

[@Imstarshine]

I think a possible problem with people being open to the theory of there being no freewill is the ego. Im not talking about taking this theory as an absolute but instead something to consider. For, the theory is a least a condition, because some believe it as an absolute. Therefore it becomes a reality of belief in some that we encounter. So, if instead one was to say that all peoples situation of there being no free will is unique to each individual, and this situation contains a unique set of conditions (in the internal+external environment), and that within this situation and conditions exists the possibility of choice, *possibility*. Then one is in a better place.

[@KonshiousOne]

Free Will is Real. Because a WILL is something you write. People change their WILL multiple times in life, but you aren't the one who executes the WILL. It happens after death. In the same idea a will is your idea about the meaning and reason for life, but will doesn't mean doing what you want in life. You are free to think about life however you want to think about it...but the happenings was decided before you were birth. Your parents sex was a biological and chemical reaction and you are the result. And every action has a reaction and you have been living out cause and effect. And if you didn't initiate the first cause then you can't dictate or control the effect. But we are free to perceive these reactions however we want...its your story, then its history.

[@Beyondhumanlimits1]

“you are free to perceive these reactions” It’s like saying: “I have no will in what I’m going to wear tomorrow but when the day comes I will watch myself do it regardless.” It’s a clumsy way of comforting yourself into having at least a tiny little bit of power over what you gonna wear tomorrow. You can’t have the cake and eat it too. The observer has no free will thus nothing to perceive, only premeditated action.

[@KonshiousOne]

@@Beyondhumanlimits1 the observer is always giving a perspective to life based on limited understanding so we postulate about what's happening, we are doing it right now.

[@krazykirl1129]

I say this all the time! When people think they've accomplished things, you haven't, it's in your DNA and your opportunities available to you that you are able to embrace in circumstances. I'm so glad that someone has observed this too.

[@jungwirsch]

Those more insightful than their social contacts are often categorized as out of their mind. Your nick, and your post, seems to indicate this happened to you.

[@heatherwall9571]

The love of the divine changed me and caused me to change direction. Before that, I knew not of love whatsoever. 50yrs under the veil. The divine is amazing 🙏💙

[@noahbrown4388]

What does the “divine” mean to you?

[@elainesuth6771]

So excited to learn something new but I’m only 10 minutes in & had 2 adverts already! 😫😫😫 I don’t know if I’ll make it to the end because of the disruptions 😞

[@elainesuth6771]

So glad I stuck with it. Very very interesting! Only 10 or 11 adverts by the end lol

[@stopper90004]

My best investment ever was to pay for premium KZbin. It's ad-free AND includes free access to google music (better than spotify) killing 2 birds with one stone.

[@Artbyevelyn]

Everything is just someone’s opinion be careful on what you download in your mind into believing. I choose faith over fear

[@andyc211247]

Your guest is arguably one of the most learned and erudite people on the planet, and you start the podcast with a seemingly endless self-indulgent monologue about yourself.

[@EmilyKnowlton-i4e]

He asks questions to understand the speaker better, but I see your point.

[@kevinflynn3145]

Every time somebody compliments me on my good hair I tell them the same genetic chance, I can't take any credit. But it still feels good,,when you get a compliment. Especially when you feel it's your only good feature. Most people, like myself, like compliments. I totally agree with all these concepts and have never educated. My values and ideals are. 45 years at a barber chair has been my best classroom.. from an early age, I as well had these Independent thought. This is why I've become an intellectualized radical

[@willywalter6366]

Thank you soo much both of you! The was an exceptional lesson and perfect examplification of what we are as one human species are facing and showing by doing how to grow out of it and overcome it! I loved the whole interview and both of you ❤

[@celerystalk1521]

Probably the best interview with Sapolsky I've seen. Great job!

[@lisamuir8850]

Life doesn't trap you, those who manipulate do.

[@sanca5982]

They media can do that very well if people don't recognize it.

[@bellakrinkle9381]

Yes, but we allow it to happen because we don't know better. It is possible to prevent it. Find your Agency, not an easy task, but certainly doable. Of course public schools could teach these skills, beginning in early education - yet, there in no interest.

[@jimblackmon9699]

@@bellakrinkle9381

[@christopherchilton-smith6482]

It has been so frustrating to watch Sapolsky talk to people. I am an ignorant high school drop out that struggles with homelessness and I'm not struggling with this man! 1:50:00 NO, again I'm a real stupid and even I can see there would be no incarceration system to abuse. A quarantine system means these people get to have all the good food, all the entertainment they want, access to just about every fun experience available, anyone they aren't a danger to will be able to live with and around them. A quarantine system can't be abused by its patients, it can be escaped from but if punishment is off the table there's not much to run from. Why is this so hard for people to wrap their heads around?

[@danisharrouf4660]

confusing the impact of environmental and biological affects on human decision doesnt mean that there is no free will , its a partial point but not the whole thing, several examples in real life have proved otherwise over and over again.

[@kevinmoore734]

Yes. Some sloppy reasoning here.

[@robertsinke9211]

Read his books?

[@kathleenwharton2139]

Jesus gave us Commandments in the Sermon on the Mount..Avoid Pride..Lust..Greed..Anger and Worry and you will Live a Peaceful Healthy Life. Let Go of the past..it is past..nothing you can do to change it now. Live ToDay..one day at a time. Trust God for Tomorrow. The Father Knows what you need before you even ask and He Will Give it to You. Trust Him! 😊❤

[@alexanderasner1689]

At one point, Robert mentions that atheists with a solid foundation act just as ethically as deeply religious individuals in a time where sociological control mechanisms fail. The people who act immoral in such a time usually do not have a solid belief system. I would be super interested to learn which study, or source Robert is referring to.

[@lizfrancis6202]

You can see this now by analyzing the people who are supporting the genocide of Gaza.

[@stevo5000]

Robert Sapolsky is amazing to listen to

[@Okology]

Beautiful discussion. Thanks Tom and your guest.

[@andreikubar7522]

Damn, even though I am well aware of the Breivik story, but told like that in that context, almost made me break in tears. This is such powerful stuff. The amount of compassion, that ditching free will can generate (towards others and yourself) is enormous. We really need it. And I don’t think we will have less brilliant neurosurgeons in the result. People will still keep doing the hard stuff because a) it’s what they do b) it feels amazing to be able to do it.

[@stephenadams6455]

I’m not sure why the phrase no god, no free will, and no purpose is being presented as a fact when it is clearly an option that is unproven

[@lpslancelot05]

Same goes for god, plenty of churches and Christians seem to push those ideas as well. Hypocrisy?

[@dimitrioskalfakis]

they probably refer to the deity of ancient israelite tribal mythology (yahweh) revered by jews, christians and muslims which is as real as sauron of middle earth.

[@One-esa]

100%

[@flutemcglute]

As much as meritocracy doesn't make sense, I wish Prof. Sapolsky is nominated for and wins a Nobel Peace prize in my lifetime

[@jonathandrake8640]

It made sense enough to build the entire civilization that everything rests upon, thus allowing the blithe dismissals of meritocracy by "the vision of the ordained"

[@VideoGrabBag]

Great discussion thats mostly all contradictory and primarily delusional.

[@packardsonic]

Finally someone had the conversation with Robert that was needed. I believe telling people they don't have free will isn't useful way to foster more prosocial behavior and causes more harm than good. Instead, raising awareness about fundamental human needs (Max-Neef) and human beings as a super organism all interdependent.

[@islaperez1151]

It's 2024, I'm here to remind you again that it's not too late to take your investment journey seriously. I struggled for years before I started my crypto journey this time last year. All efforts before that moment felt hopeless and useless. I am here to tell you, it is not. Crypto changed my life.

[@MateoKevin-go9vn]

No doubt!

[@Samuel97667]

How were you able to make that much? Seems like I'm not lucky enough.

[@Samuel97667]

I'm very much aware of the great benefits of working with a pro but I haven't found one for myself.

[@Samuel97667]

Definitely grabbing this opportunity. Thanks. so much, just found her webpage

[@gergmohsen9472]

A lot of people still make massive profit from the crypto market, all you really need is a relevant information and some< professional advice. It's totally inappropriate for investors to hang on while suffering from dip during significant

[@peznino1]

Thanks for a wonderful conversation. You are both genius communicators. Tom you are an inspiration. Please continue on your mission.

[@rossfleurt447]

Mr. Robert's Logical point of views, are magnificent.Thank you for inviting him onto the show.👍

[@1Onionpeeler]

I hope I catch both these guys online, sometimes. For me, this discussion was like going to church in that I can always use the reinforcement and I had never framed my worldview in terms of free will, before. These guys are both self-actualizing. To see it makes me feel good (and I enjoy feeling good).

[@YouWillDoAsYouAreTold]

we can all sometimes feel like we are better than others when we are better than others at something. i believe that it's okay as long as we are able to recognize it for what it is, a fantasy. having immoral or unethical fantasies from time to time is a normal thing that is both acceptable and unavoidable. as long as we doesn't actually start to believe these thoughts, playing around with them in our heads doesn't necessarily have to be problematic.

[@SeC-q9m]

Right, and who doesnt believe them? Nice idea though

[@YouWillDoAsYouAreTold]

@@SeC-q9m the few of us that actually understand these things. but yes, motst people will most likely believe them, unfortunately. all we can do is to keep educating the world about these things, and slowly more and more will understand

[@micheleploeser7720]

If you believe in God you have no free will or Any well at all free or not that belief runs your life and all your injuries or self-inflicted

[@danielzlatic3943]

It seems to me that asking questions along the lines of, “what should I do with this information that there is no free will” misses the point. If there is no free will then there is no “should”. A person can’t “use” this information because that would presuppose the existence of free will.

[@dvdmon]

I think you may have a narrow view of what "there's no free will" means. It doesn't mean you just give up and do nothing, it just means that whatever you do, it wasn't ultimately your choice to do it. In other words, you can still try to be a good person, help others, build things, etc., etc., but then taking that and believing you are a great person simply because you made those "decisions" and the person who ended up living in their parents basement and never did anything with their lives is a useless person, is not quite right. They made their decisions based on their own genetics, upbringing, life experiences, etc., as did you. They (nor you) were at the beginning of life given a list of which parents to have, which genes to have, which childhood to have, etc. All of these things play pivital roles into your choices. It doesn't mean you can't TRY to make the "best" choices for yourself, it just means you can't take the credit (or blame) for making a fantastic (or terrible) choice. I know many people don't like that, they have a moralistic view of things, and this kind of philosophy to them sounds like we are letting people "off the hook." But it also doesn't mean we can't protect society from people who make decisions to harm others. We can still do this, but we also don't have to punish them by making their lives hell just as retribution for something that they didn't ultimately choose.

[@lpslancelot05]

@dvdmon I agree. A lot of people struggle with the free will debate. I’ve noticed, you have to frame it correctly and define you terms. Free will says something about the ego, humans tend to reject most things that attack the ego. Interesting isn’t it.

[@mirovinac3968]

@@dvdmon LOL "It doesn't mean you can't TRY to make the "best" choices for yourself, it just means you can't take the credit (or blame) for making a fantastic (or terrible) choice." in one sentence you ruined all what you wrote. Decide - is there a free will or not? Wait, you are writing, than that's writing some machine instead of you, or you as a person?

[@dvdmon]

@@mirovinac3968 lol, yes, it's very hard to talk about this because human language and how we tend to structure out thoughts is using this terminology of "choice" "doing", etc.

[@beewest5704]

​@@mirovinac3968Unless we have a agreed definition of what free will is we run into these problems.

[@julesmeyeri2056]

He's my favourite clever guy and makes sense on every level 😊

[@matthewbrandon267]

God is real ❤

[@stefus97]

no he s not :)

[@RyuFan1999]

He defo is :) But it's alright, you'll only end up realising after you die because of your massive ego. @@stefus97

[@MH-53E]

@@stefus97 He's not real to you, as you are not real to Him. Problem is, it makes no difference to Him what you believe.

[@AlphaMacho]

@@stefus97Ok then I guess there’s no evil in the world and good in the world ..

[@nicolas_-_-_]

Hello! Amen! I had rejected the Lord and I came back to Him. I like those "Give me an answer" videos on KZbin. It's obvious there is a Creator. And what about all those people who miraculously healed. Doctors cannot explain it. But those are facts. They miraculously healed. I don't need miracles to believe in God, but if there was no God, those miracles would have never happened. A universe, a world without God would be impossible. It's a nonsense. He created all these things. No matter what we say, there will always be some people who don't believe. But the fact that they don't believe does not change the truth. The truth is still the truth, no matter if you believe in it or not.

[@warrenhurley5787]

Thanks Tom for inserting the timestamps. Hope this is a new feature for all new vids.

[@stephenfosker6066]

This will be difficult to understand unless you think about it through the lens of evolutionary biology/ psychology...we've spent a lot more time evolving into who we are than being who we are😉

[@T_Man-mm9sz]

I really like Robert Sapolsky and appreciate the way he is able to articulate the notion that we are not really masters of our universe. Having said that... I feel that he sort of skips tracks when he suddenly starts talking about the idea of what is just or unjust. There is no "just" or "unjust" in a cause and effect world, there is only what is and there could have never been anything else. If it happens, it just happens. There is nothing objectively wrong or right about violence or objectively wrong or right about cooperation, they are simply different outcomes. The concept of objective right and wrong is another mental construct for survival and perceived well-being.

[@ccc0424]

I will be saving this one for repeat!

[@mindtobodyfit]

Me too! I’m only 5 mins in, and know il be binging this one! ✨

[@m.dgaius6430]

The great seal of liberation is no longer being ashamed of oneself

[@steveshirley2250]

I think the very fact that convincing someone that they do not have free will likely change their behavior is evidence of free will. It can go the other way too. All absolving yourself of free-will does is dissolve guilt, a very important, and painful emotion.

[@froyo9674]

Exactly and the lack of the belief in god is still a belief in and of itself…surely made up by a human 😂

[@stopper90004]

​@@froyo9674 only if your a-priori is that god exists (a presumption for which you would require some sort of objective evidence)

[@mrrecluse7002]

Excellent! Back in the early 1900's there was a philosopher named George Gurdjieff, who also believed "free will" was a fiction, and that people are just "machines." His work is fascinating, and revolutionary, and has completely disintegrated many of my assumptions, for the past 50 years.

[@JB.zero.zero.1]

His views are fantastic. I have thought for my entire adult life that the disparity in wages between sectors is outrageous. I have known people on high wages who love their jobs, they find their jobs fulfilling / enriching and receive high levels of remuneration and class distinction. Whereas, the average worker in retail, a cleaner etc. - often feel their life is empty, they feel low status and they struggle. None of this is fair whatsoever and it makes no sense when we look at the science.

[@stopper90004]

We're just one branch of a long, long line of dog-eat-dog organic soup . All organisms unconsciously compete for scarce resources (look at which trees survive to spawn more seeds by growing higher than other trees in response to the sunlight above the forest canopy). Competition (and the resultant control of resources/rewards) among mammals is the inevitable outcome of this long, evolutionary algorithm... Inequality is inevitable. What matters for happiness is how you react to the circumstances/jand you are dealt that shape every moment and outcome in your life: you can either be resentful and victim-like, or you can be grateful for all the things that you do have (indoor toilet; air conditioning; cheap antibiotics; sunshine...). Study the Stoic philosophy and you will find contentment.

[@JB.zero.zero.1]

@@stopper90004 I understand stoicism - I used to read the writings many years ago & Buddhism etc. To simplify - just accept circumstances as they are, work with "what is" rather than stress about "what isn't" ... It's ultimately "a cope" though, but a practically useful one. I am Antinatalist - which overrides all other ideologies. Better never to have been.

[@carolalison]

I have friends I have known since I was 11 and it is now 68 years later. I loved them and then I hated them and then I kinda of accepted that’s life .. they have good and great qualities and then show such incredibly stupid narrow minded selves for a different period in their lives.. And as we move into late seventies ..the good and bad almost are back to back . I have no doubt that at some point one luncheon will show the best and worse coming and going within minutes and hopefully we will all move a notch above both the good and the bad but I fear death will come at that moment or be close behind and we will never know ourselves together with another person above this polarity and who knows what will happen.

[@chrisdemopoulos41]

The belief that free will is an illusion is as faith-based as a belief in god. The jury is still out

[@diekritischestimme]

Exactly. I see zero evidence in this video to answer this old question. Nothing new and nothing scientific.

[@dvdmon]

@@diekritischestimme I don't think this was the point of the talk, this is something both of them agree on so wasn't their focus to somehow break down the arguments pro or con. I would like to understand what the arguments against free will being illusory are, because the the ones I've seen in favor are quite convincing.

[@offensivearch]

@@dvdmon The common notion of free will is inconsistent. However, the notion of subjective will in a more general sense is not so easily dismissed. The problem with free will to me is that it falls apart when you start to define it, it only works as a vague notion. The vaguenes of it has to do with the vagueness of defining self (in particular the aspect of self that is agentive). This is the core of why the common free will notion is a nonsense idea. Free will relies on a "black box" in the loop of decision making where we can say free will is occuring. As soon as the black box becomes white (ie, fully understood), it's no longer "free will" but a decision algorithm. Free will can only exist if there is a decision making step in the loop that is impossible to understand (predict) that is intelligent. As a biologist, Sapolsky believes it is all fully understood (or in principle, understandeable), which is why he says there is no free will. My best guess right now is that there is a sort of will (as in an Agency), but it is not individualized. That is, there is a will that animates subjective experience and is uniquely filtered by our individuality (eg biological conditions). This does not give us a real moral responsability or ownership/guilt of our actions/results though, in that sense it would be identical to no free will. Going into the support for this "one will" idea would take a lot of time, but it starts with the understanding of what self is.

[@mercyme8014]

Thanks..that helps.

[@AlphaMacho]

Free will comes in if you want to follow god or not. He can change the way you see things yet you rebuke him and don’t want to live for him. That’s free will

[@someguy4157]

taking responsibility for your life sucks, but it's supposed to. it's not about toxic positivity, it's about being honest with yourself, as well as kind. it's really sad that so many struggle so much to find meaning, but giving up one's agency isn't the right answer.

[@DubbzRHandle]

“Taking responsibility for your life sucks, but it’s supposed to.” Hahaha. Look at me. Life sucks but I face the hard facts and do what needs to be done! That story is so old dude. I used to beat myself over the head with that crap too. Then I became mentally ill and my life fell apart. For years I blamed myself for it and thought of myself as the biggest turd in the universe. Relinquishing the illusion that somehow I could have prevented that or did a better job managing it has been an enormous gift to me. But anecdotes aside, this is what the science points to, in my opinion. This doesn’t mean we don’t pay our bills or punch random people in the face. Actions still have consequences, and we have operating systems which (hopefully) allow us to make reasonable decisions in certain situations.

[@gvlacic21]

First thing i thought when hearing Doc Sap argue away free will is that he's on his own quest to find God.

[@lila_ck]

Great conversation. Sapolsky's ideas are so important right now, and i am grateful that he sees that they can be taken in a way that is misguided, but is willing to work with those challenges to get them circulated. "My" thoughts are, the way language is used, from the get-go, sets up the fundamental root belief in free will. I am this, I am that, i do this, i deserve this, etc., has created and continues to create and strengthen and entrench a framework of individual agency and ownership where it doesn't exist. If this is truly seen, it is possible to continue using language the same way for practical purposes, but in a completely new light.

[@centurionstrengthandfitnes3694]

Chapters and an actual top tier guest?! Impact Theory back to form? By far the best in a while, Tom. As I'm sure Daniel Schmachtenberger would tell you, while defaulting to the development of organized military forces may not be baked into us, it only takes one group/tribe/nation to do it to kick off a reaction that requires all other groups/tribes/nations to do the same or be outcompeted into either subjugation or destruction. Every avenue of advantage that is utilized by one needs to be utilized or counteracted by all others in order to secure/deny asymmetrical advantage.

[@DanSvoboda-hg5mm]

Tom, the way you described your process by which your diiffiucties were overcome, is precisely how i became sober in alcoholics anonymous. in 1988. being an atheist with no free will in AA can be difficult to navigate (sometimes quite difficult), but "I" try be present for others who would otherwise leave. the thing that i have heard in the rooms that i hate the most is, "if God chases 'em away, whiskey'll bring 'em back"

[@mann8098]

I don' know if freewill exists or not. It's a moot conversation. But I do know that choice exists. I can say that the conversation was edifying or I can say that this guy just wasted my time or I can say I disagree with him but still made good points and not only that , I can write any of the 3 points honestly or I can still write them and not believe them. We have a choice to go with our nature or against it. I can go against a deterministic choice just to prove the existence of freewill 😂 But then people will say even this is your nature so it's not freewill. You are a biological robot. Then I say that we are getting into semantics and not very productive philosophizing. WHAT MATTERS IS THAT YOU DO HAVE A CHOICE TO LIVE THE LIFE THAT YOU DESIRE AND WITH THE APPLICATION OF THE RIGHT PRINCIPLES AND VIRTUES YOU CAN HAVE A SUCCESSFUL MEANINGFUL AND BLISSFUL LIFE. Everything written in caps is more valuable wisdom than the 3 hour podcast.

[@crow4130]

You're the man !! Live your intelligence , the way you speak and the simulation theory ! ❤

[@Pratiquement-Durable]

I don't know anybody that believes in total free will. Everybody knows that we are influenced and conditioned by environment and education and the country we have been born in. I know very well that I have no merit of being born in Switzerland rather than in Somalia. But that does not imply that all reflected rational decisions are 100% determined by others. That would be the end of democracy and our judicial system. Our judges invest a lot of effort to try to distinguish between external influences and responsibility of judged individuals. If that effort is useless because everything is fully determined, then let's abolish the justice system and open more psychiatric hospitals, just as the Soviet Union did. That would be the logical conclusion and be philosophically identical to "soviet scientific materialism" and the materialistic Chinese surveillance state. Philosophies have consequences.

[@SaguftaNasrinShifa]

I loved the end part of this podcast, the Scandinavian way of treating crimes.

[@spiderqueen601]

DUDE his definition of depression... IS DEPRESSING. And accurate. Good god. And as someone who was chronically depressed for YEARS and then got out of it - yes, 100%. MENTAL HEALTH IS A DELUSION. Depression is the truth. Choose delusion.

[@fionav1921]

How did you get out of it?

[@GameFreakParadox]

This scientific idea is more in line with Eastern religions such as Buddhism, and less so with Western religions like Christianity so I would imagine if you’re a westerner you’re less likely to adopt this line of thinking. The thing I think many no-free will believers fail to explain is why it feels like we make choices. The “knowing” or “feeling” of making a choice itself is a sensory experience in the same way when you see something scary and feel fear. That’s why it’s an illusion of free will, it’s not in your control. The last bit to this is then who is experiencing these sensations. The non-dualistic Eastern religious view would be that it’s the universe experiencing itself, and that true realization of it is effectively reaching nirvana or enlightenment. This is a leap of faith essentially akin to believing in God in the Christian sense, however, the scientific evidence supports non-free will, and I see it as a nice marriage between spirituality and science which seems to be lacking in other religious perspectives.

[@waynesanders1406]

You both exercised free will by deciding to do this podcast vs. not. Tom exercised free will by building Quest, and again when he exited. Everyone exercises free will 24/7. I just sifted through several videos in my feed and selected several including this one. Now I'm exercising free will to watch something else more useful.

[@pavanlulla]

But you are executing your programming? 😂

[@minakoa7178]

You don’t understand the argument against free will. You’re talking about choices. Choice still exists in a deterministic universe.

[@winniethuo9736]

He is arguing that including human actions, are determined by prior causes. He believes that our choices are ultimately the result of a chain of cause and effect making free will an illusion. This must mean then that the question itself is of great significance to our understanding of our human nature.

[@mirovinac3968]

@@winniethuo9736 If everything is decided previously then certainly there is some intellegence which created all of that. But then what is that intelligent creator? Certainly a God. But not God of good, mercy and love. Just pure mathematic. But then we wouldn't be emotional and spiritual. We wouldn't exist at all. No need for us to exist. Only reason for existence of humanity then would be someone's playground. But again, we all (if we are not sick) feel and seek for love and higher purpose. So, there is something bigger and better than us and all demi-gods or demons who maybe rule this world. And THAT is LOVE. And when you really love something or somebody, you give FREE WILL. So there is a GOd and there is a freewill within determined chaotic state.

[@offensivearch]

​@@winniethuo9736 The way I see it, free will depends on a component of the decision process that is intelligent (for example, not merely random), yet a black box (impenetrable to symbolic understanding/representation). Sapolsky believes the entire human decison process is, at least in principle, a white box. This makes sense from his biology background. I don't think this has been proven conclusively yet, but I'll grant it is likely extrapolating from the rate of neuroscience progression. Another, somewhat related point, is mental freedom. How would science prove our thoughts are either random or fully determined? I think it can show influence on thinking, but not the ability to fully control thinking. Obviously, the objective means to measure mere thought are also limited. We can measure neural activity, not thoughts themselves. I think this question is important. Even though free will is characterized by "free decisions" and not "free thought", at least some decisions are preceeded by "deliberate" thought. More significantly, what Saopolsky hasn't convincingly shown is that there isn't an impenetrable intelligence in the entire system of environment and intelligent agents. So we may not have individual free wills, but there may yet be a single or indivisible "free will" that does choose, which determines the path of progression and becoming. This outcome could be proven false if progression were shown to be fully random or fully deterministic. Right now it seems like neither of these is the case. The current theory of physics is not fully deterministic (even in macrosopic physics) and obviously not fully random.

[@Paragon_Reason]

I love the topics, guests and discussion>debate format. I would like to see the host talk less about his opinions with the featured guest, possibly have a summary of His thoughts at the end but this is positive criticism. Cool stuff 😎