McMap vs Defendu

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[@BobChoat]

The Marines Martial Arts Program is much different versus what I learned and taught when I was in the Marines (68-76). One of my instructors was a hand-to-hand combat instructor from WWII

[@paultaylor107]

USMC or RMC?

[@BobChoat]

@@paultaylor107 USMC

[@jeanschmit862]

Very well said! Being a combatives instructor in Luxembourg for more than a decade and very influenced by Lee Morrison, I can only agree completely with your arguments. Keep up the good work!

[@jackmcconnell7283]

Thank you for this very true and insightful video. I completely agree that modern military hand to hand combatives in the US Marine Corps has truly gone in the wrong direction. I have witnessed this first hand and know of the dangers in the methods and techniques the MCMAP system teaches. As a United States Navy Corpsman attached with the Marine Corps. It was standard that I learned the MCMAP system and know from experience that if one does not already have any combat experience or come from a martial arts background, how dangerous these methods are. I witnessed many Marines in the field and on the streets truly gets hurt, on some occasions ended up being fatal for the Marine. It true is a dangerous system to employ even in minor situations let alone actual battlefield combat. And to note that although individuals are taught the basics of MCMAP in their initial basic training. To Contine the progression through the belt levels in the MCMAP program is voluntary and done after all of your initial training but is not required unless you are training to advance into your NCO ranks or above. It's a crash course in basic training, but not truly enforced after. This is very detrimental and possible fatal for the young marines. MCMAP focuses on a few key points, bur it doesn't keep you safe. Defendu, urban combatives,etc... will truly work in the streets and in war. MCMAP is truly lacking. In fact our beloved Bartitsu is more compatible for actual modern combat and self defense then the Modern MCMAP program, although The physical training involved for the MCMAP program and black belt testing is actual good. Thank you again for this very good video. I look forward to seeing more on these topics comparing other military combatives to the old ways of military combatives of yester year.

[@willb7799]

Gung Ho Chuan Association were consultants re MCMAP. They only kept some of what Bob Kasper, John Watson et al introduced. USMC was looking to create a “system” ie belts, advancement etc. The Defendu curse…

[@lsporter88]

Wow. Great analysis. I would have to agree. And yes, that is shocking. Great commentary.

[@johnnemo6509]

One of my training partners was a former paratrooper (British), His take on their unarmed combat training "Very little beyond Milling. Para training makes you very tough, very strong, and very aggressive, you're wearing big army boots and you basically run straight over the guy". Just for comparison.

[@nickmccarthy8783]

Great vid Tommy. I think Defendu cannot actually be bettered. It is as simple as it is brutal. Mind you, I could be biassed as I teach Defendu! Not sure I agree with moving your head when a gun is pointed at it. It is twice as slow as moving the pistol with a sudden grab. We have tested this many times with a bb gun. The person holding the gun can never pull the trigger as the hand grab is just too fast. The main modification I have made, isn't to the Defendu per se, but when to use it. Also, when not to use it. Defendu is not for the average "anti-social" pub fight. I teach de-escalation for those situations. However, against predatory, targetted attackers, Defendu has no equal.

[@SoldierDrew]

One of my Army buddies trained LINE & MCMAP combatives in the USMC prior to changing branches where he trained MAC-P combatives in the Army and he said Army MAC-P combatives was exponentially superior in creating skilled fighters. Also the Gracie Jiujitsu Combatives make up the foundation of MAC-P mixed w/Judo, Wrestling, Boxing and Muay Thai. U.S. Army SOC-P is the best combatives program for active duty Infantry & Special Forces Soldiers tasked w/CQB clearing buildings.

[@2862Gunny]

100% agreed. USMC GySgt(Ret) 1992-2012. I trained in LINE, MCMAP, ACP, on top of being lucky enough to have gotten some Close Combat training in my misspent youth from a WWII instructor. MCMAP is really just designed to familiarize Marines with hitting, getting hit, and getting taken down. Running into MCMAP instructors who thought they could fight was a regular event. There were some MCMAP guys, like Capt. Decker, who were tough as nails. Overall, not so much.

[@TommyMooreww2combatives]

Cheers fella. I'm trying to be fair and balanced. Training now has to be entertaining, as well as useful! Value in both arts of course, my main issue with what techniques are taught in what order. The progression and priorities seem all over the place. But at least you guys have a system. No such thing for the UK!

[@junichiroyamashita]

What do you think is the best among the 3 ?

[@BigEddie1970]

Hey Gunny, I learned both McMap at the end of my time and LINE early on. II really think LINE was far better.

[@tonymontana3949]

About spear?

[@fredazcrate4362]

Ladd I am in full agreement with you on the matter. Unarmed combat is rough and tough business. So training must be consise, practical, and few but effective techniques and a flexible stragie. Else the combatant's die. That simple. Now I end my dietribe. However I thank you for your time and effort. I enjoyed you presentation emensly. God bless and keep safe.

[@TommyMooreww2combatives]

Cheers fella. Keep it simple. There's already bloody variables (light, terrain, obstacles, weapons, clothing etc etc). No need to add a billion techniques for those that need a few for their profession

[@fredazcrate4362]

I do hate auto-correct; the ought be strategy. Oh well, that is life at times.

[@fredazcrate4362]

@@TommyMooreww2combatives with so many variables; I believe efficiency and flexible but simple techniques win the day and preserves life. Let me end and say both thank you and God bless you. Keep safe and hartty.

[@SenseiEmmett]

Happy Holidays Tommy, it was a pleasure meeting you this year and having you on my podcast, may 2021 be a better year for us all.

[@joewicks8926]

I agree on all counts. I bought the McMap book a while back, having owned the Fairbairns one for a while. Way too much shoddy stuff in the former. So much so it's something I no longer refer to. Bill Underwood's Combato is next on my list.

[@ruiseartalcorn]

Having read both, and being a life-long martial artist, I have to agree!

[@ivanmatos7594]

I appreciate you work but I will like to hear your opinion on the RAT fight system from Paul vunak and the similarities to defendu and thank you again for your work

[@cfps66]

Hi Tommy. Thank you for your analysis. Great job! I have two questions for you but I will give you some back ground first. I am a retired SOCOM Officer. I wrestled from Junior High through University. I studied a bunch of different styles like Judo, Shotokan, TKD, and Boxing. I am 58 years old and a 100% Disabled Veteran. If I have to throw down it won't be for grins and giggles. It will be a life threatening situation that I can't evade. So, my questions to you are: 1. How does Defendu/Gutter Fighting stack up against SOC-P? 2. Where can I get instruction on Defendu/Bartitsu/All In in the United States? I have COL Fairbairn's Compendium but book learning isn't hands on training. Do you know of any Instructors in the US? Thank you, Chris CPT Christopher F. Sheridan, 20th SFG (Ret.)

[@Ty_The_Bonsai_Guy]

Knee them in the knackers. Lol! I've got to remember that one😂👍

[@johnwilkinson5811]

Yes. Fairbairn and Sykes were given the job because they were hardened. They knew what they were about and they knew how to pass on both the effective (maim or kill) skills along with the attitude to use them. And what they taught worked. Bear in mind it wasn't just the material in the book. They had rough and tumble fighting on the ground and other sparring and aggression drills alongside it. The open hand striking was smart because a man with broken hands is a liability not an asset on the battlefield. The defendu system was, and remains, excellent. The human body hasn't changed. What worked in WWII still works now. The reason why armed forces moved away from that is because it did work. And that became a problem in peacetime. Men trained to default to lethal force drinking in bars and getting into fights that resulted in horrendous injuries and deaths. So armed forces began to ditch it in favour of teaching less lethal things. You also have the political trend, which was somewhat led by medicine, to remove as many weapons from civilian life as possible. No more knuckedusters and certainly no trench knives. No more saps and blackjacks. No more flick knives or gravity knives or butterfly knives. No more anything at all that a policeman might suspect is a weapon. Including that bit of stick that you picked up in the park that fell off a tree. That has been pretty effective too. It has reduced the scope and scale of civilians doing terrible things to each other in the UK at least. But of course you have to balance that up with current trends. Young men who don't get into boxing gyms but do get bullied and with no sense that the Police will keep them safe turning to picking up the obvious force multipliers. Kitchen knives. And they still work just as well as they ever did.

[@drno62]

Men trained to default to lethal force drinking in bars and getting into fights that resulted in horrendous injuries and deaths Where did you get that from? I'd like to read some of the stories

[@rikoecho834]

Once again great video

[@ignitionfrn2223]

0:30 - The evolution of combatives 1:30 - Defendu pedagogy 2:50 - MCMAP pedagogy 5:30 - The pros of MCMAP 6:00 - The cons of MCMAP 7:40 - The big difference between the systems 8:50 - Tommy's choice 11:00 - Tommy vs MCMAP 12:00 - Defendu forever ? 14:00 - Conclusion

[@OllinXiucoatl]

I was in the US Marine Corps right before LINE was replaced by MCMAP so I got training in both. You are right MCMAP was largely incorporated for humanitarian and peace keeping missions. To be honest I like MCMAP but I prefer WWII Combatives more so. I prefer LINE over MCMAP. In my opinion the US military should combine LINE with Fairbairn’s Combatives with some grappling. Again, you’re right most Marine don’t progress far into MCMAP at least when I was in and the training is inadequate to make marines proficient at unarmed Combatives.

[@BigEddie1970]

I learned both McMap at the end of my time, but LINE at the start. I found LINE to be much better. I think it had a direct line to Defendu type training.

[@jackmcconnell7283]

Please pardon the typos in my last comment. Thank you again for the video

[@Emory-d7g]

My mother used to make me go to bed without any supper. This is good because if your homeless you would eat what a billy goat would not. Hunger is something to adjust to . I used to make sure i ate once a day. Ellipse exrcise bike . I say. My income is under attack. I learned some about pawn shops. My uncle used to have a bayanett in the marine core. Butt them .

[@barrycooke2357]

Good video Tommy. What is you background in these systems?

[@captainkiller35]

Good stuff keep up the good work

[@TommyMooreww2combatives]

Cheers fella thank you!

[@TheRealRomansThirteen]

Have you done a review video on what's wierd in the all in book?

[@First_Principals]

You should review the military manual of self defence by Anthony herbert

[@tobiasgreen8211]

Damb... I would absolutely love to speak with you just for the intelligent conversation! I'm going through your play lists. I think you may enjoy kapap (avi nardia) which I was taught in Sheffield. It's more like Fairbairns methods and krav and very effective set of principles to analyse other martial arts. You go through stress inoculation and drills for your reflexes. You don't seem to panic or think. You don't get the mind fog or caught up in what to do. You just do what you have to do. I always thought that this was missing from Fairbairns books... but I'm still researching it. Also poor health may lead me to need a cain.... well... do or die 😉 Didn't even know about the Le Canne until this week, eyes open due to you. He'll of a lot cheaper to get to France than the Philippines 😆. Thanks buddy keep it up!

[@TheDsy1]

You have to remember that MCMAP has to cater to the masses and that it is a base line. Even as basic as it is, many have trouble finding time to progress or even sustain. Plus, injuries are always a concern for commands. BJJ and Krav Maga styles result in severe injuries that will not be tolerated, especially in pre-deployment training. Throughout the years, many commands have purposely limited MCMAP and other services have banned participation altogether. The host here is clearly knowledgeable, but I will guarantee he would face similar withering criticism if he was tasked with coming up with such a branch-wide program. DEFENDU is effective street fighting, but you cannot always use that style in today’s world. Another example is the host’s statement that you can’t move your head while you deflect the pistol. You can do both. Do your MCMAP in garrison and read Fairbain before you go outside the wire. The muscle and flexibility benefits of MCMAP will translate nicely.

[@timothygourley5690]

What about the knife defences?? Could you do video on the difference in knife defence between fairburn (and other instructors of the time) and modern self defence/military combatives???

[@johnwilkinson5811]

Fairbairn's knife and gun defences were specifically for escaping from being taken captive. If you weren't being taken captive you fight and kill or maim the enemy. Very simple and direct. You were not meant to get yourself in the situation where you had to rely on unarmed defence against knife or gun. It's last resort stuff. Tommy gives you a big hint in this video. Fairbairn's movements for escaping the captive situation were to push the weapon away to the side and stripping it, and or moving yourself away to the other side. or spinning around and taking the weapon away if it is being stuck in your back. You don't stand still and push the weapon up your body. And no-one was under any illusions. No-one thought that these were sure fire escapes that would always turn the tables on the enemy. If you got into that situation you were most likely to be killed and not captured, or killed whilst trying to escape. The best way to understand it is from the emphasis on pre-emption. You maim or kill the enemy before they have a chance to do anything at all. You sneak up and maim or kill the enemy without them knowing you are coming. The idea is to win as easily as possible, and not to be getting yourself into knife/gun defence. But if you do end up in the brown stuff, be aggressive about it and best of luck to you because you are going to need it.

[@someguy5948]

IIRC, the only mention of knife defence in All In Fighting was to essentially pick up a chair and rush the knife wielder, with the aim to jam the chair legs into their face and maintain distance from the knife.

[@bobadams7654]

Nice breakdown Tommy.

[@krakulandia]

Most of Fairbairn's techniques/methods were tested again and again in actual real combat situations and honed/tweaked selected on their success rate and usefulness. That doesn't seem to be the case at all with McMap. Also using a belt system for military hand-to-hand combat makes no sense at all and should be abandoned.

[@nickmccarthy8783]

Tommy, I have a question for you. Which parts of "All-in Fighting" are weird as f**k? I just flicked through the book again, and I think it is all good. What am I missing? This is a genuine question from a fellow Defendu teacher.

[@TommyMooreww2combatives]

So for me the weird ones include things like the Bronco kick (which is way riskier than just normally stomping someone out, has high risk of you falling over too etc), things like the prisoner capture grapevine (which doesn't really work etc) and a few of the more tenuous lock reversals and grip releases. The curriculum by the mid / closing stages of the war seemed to refine these down to a more practical core vs his Ju Jitsu heavy early periods

[@nickmccarthy8783]

Thanks Tommy for your reply. I will give this some thought. Oh, I always thought of the bronco kick as being done when the opponent in unconscious to make sure he never gets up again, but I get your point. A stomp on the trachea would be easier and more certain. Cheers

[@rosendovandamme5926]

Can you make video on how to use defendu against a wing chun/empty hand kali practitioner?

[@johnwilkinson5811]

Er, you do understand that Defendu is not a 'martial art' but a means of carrying out warfare? You use Defendu against Wing Chun by shooting the bastard in the back or sneaking up on them and having their throat out with your knife, or strangling them to death with a rear naked choke. The same with Kali, Jiu Jitsu or anything else. It is 'gutter fighting'. No rules. Use your weapons effectively. Distract and strike. Do whatever it takes to end the opponent as a danger to you and be smart about it.

[@bobadams7654]

Rosendo, easy. Find where they live. Ring their doorbell in the early evening. When they answer give them an envelope and ask them to check the address. Then stab them repeatedly in the neck.

[@dariusrana8487]

What do you think of Richard Dimitri,Tony Blauer and Tim Larkin? Geoff Thompson was a big influence in me too. I like Mick Coup also Your stuff and John McSweeney are also excellent.

[@TommyMooreww2combatives]

Love them all. Each has a unique flavour. I’m not one for petty martial arts politics, everyone has something great to add, and those guys are some of the best

[@chiefslief1886]

"how to uppercut...like a Dickhead".. 😂😂 great content.

[@gutterfightsecrets]

Nice

[@ClydeRowing]

It would be interesting to compare the pressure testing offered by both systems - on the assumption that there is the luxury of time to do so. From what you've shown, the MCMAP stuff looks like garbage, but may have the virtue of allowing participants to pressure test against a resisting opponent without blinding, paralysing or forever disabling a fellows fork. I recall seeing an article (I think it may have been from WW1) where US officers were defending a boxing programme in their training with the rationale that the real value was stoking fighting spirit, pain tolerance and the ability to make decisions under physical and emotional pressure. The above should not be taken that I am a fan of MCMAP which looks like a camel designed by a committee.

[@patrickcollins1855]

Old school fighting is still King. The fighting on the ground stuff is a no no in combat.

[@tonymontana3949]

Yes but things change

[@ebor8402]

Can you do one looking at LINE?

[@da90sReAlvloc]

Defendu is good mcmap is probably good but my jkd (Bruce Lee's system) jeet kune do is good for me I've used it to defend myself many times So I'll stick with jkd, Good video 👍

[@william4207]

Do you think the popularity of mma is taking away in instructors skilled in traditional arts like ju jitsu, judo, kali, and etc?

[@TommyMooreww2combatives]

Not at all. Many experienced martial artists study several systems. Many cross between traditional and MMA or Combatives based content. There’s often more instructors than there are students! However the era of choice has offered students more options to shop and roam for a coach and system that suits them. All arts are good arts. People have different wants and needs. I love them all

[@TheRealRomansThirteen]

Maybe the Marines aren't the Assassins I thought they were CIA just went one up. +1

[@uexkeru]

As someone who's used everything from straight WWII combatives to several years going of BJJ, the MCMAP program just seems to me like a compromise between everything, doing none of it well. Techniques like a Judo/BJJ armbar are meant to be absorbed through hours and hours of sportive play where you're getting the position and entry against resisting, highly trained opponents. Those opponents will exploit every opening they can imagine. Put it in a crash course of 50 people going step 1 step 2 step 3 isn't really going to do it. Are their sports programs strong enough to fix the bad habits from the awful form taught in a MCMAP class? There's also a factor of not seeming to distinguish between *battle* tactics and arrest-oriented training. WWII era programs had combat sports (boxing and wrestling) and arrest moves but, since it was a peer conflict they were more focused on the mindset of absolutely brutalizing the enemy without hesitation. So now the military is shifting from a focus on asymmetric war to peer conflicts against powers like Russia. Is hand to hand combat going to evolve to suit a peer conflict?

[@tonymontana3949]

Hi my friend modern war isn't hand to hand but we training in a strength stamina flexibility for human body second learn martial arts or fighting systems to fight with enemy when you don't have weapon firearn or melee to defence yourself

[@w4grappling705]

When W.E. have always his place ,and any of his book are a must to have, i Also belive that a book is still a book and if one has no opportunity to train in Quantico or with any MCMACP or MACP graduate,can' t understand the real technique, tricks and pourpose behind a pic.I'm a pro Grappling coach and some of my sudent came from the the near U..S. base.I also have a friend who was employed in the security of Italian ambassy in U.S.A. He is the only Italian who has hearned the MCMAP under Shusko.The book (wich i have),don't teach almost nothing on what MCMAP really is.Thrust me.Also,MCMAP was introduced because the old L.IN.E. training has little to no application in pesce missions because ,like 'Get tough' or 'All in fighting' was intended for killing or brutally end the fight like in a war time.

[@disband_thebbc5933]

I wouldn't waste my money on the McMAP book. You'd be better off putting the time required in to learning it in to just about any random traditional martial art available down your local high street.

[@tonymontana3949]

Mcmap

[@Liam1991]

So, I take it your not a fan of Krav Maga? I'd been interested to see you do some more videos comparing other military martial art systems.

[@TommyMooreww2combatives]

I think some Krav is good. And it had a promising foundation in boxing, wrestling and weapons. Much of modern Krav is pretty awful. What I find most interesting in military systems isn’t just the techniques but what order / priority they’re taught in. MCMAP, US Army Combatives, and a fair few Krav syllabuses seem to be structured very strangely!

[@James-C24]

@@TommyMooreww2combatives how would you go about finding a good krav maga class/instructor? My only experience is my local uni jiu jitsu which i did for 4 years as it was essentially free. Lots of our syllabus was similar to fairbairns techniques which i enjoyed with my interest in historical Fighting techniques particularly in ww1 and ww2.

[@TommyMooreww2combatives]

@@James-C24 where about are you based fella, I'll ask about for you :)

[@James-C24]

@@TommyMooreww2combatives thank you!! Im based in Northamptonshire.

[@michaelskasick1560]

@@TommyMooreww2combatives I agree with this. There was a Krav dojo in my town and I figured I'd give it a try since they offer free classes. Granted, I'm going in with rusty skills and a somewhat questionable fitness level. I knew that Krav was intense, but I expected the instructor to want to minimize injury. I thought: "Cool, we'll do warmups and then we'll ramp it up from there!" Nope. Tap sparring with no warmup. I left shortly thereafter, and warned other martial artists near me to keep away. If an instructor refuses to teach a martial art, especially Krav Maga, in an environment that doesn't try to minimize injury? They're not qualified to teach it. Never mind what trophies and certificates they have on the wall.

[@PirataSports]

You’ve got to stop cleaning the camera with Vaseline.

[@TommyMooreww2combatives]

Hahaha broken camera and too financially decimated by covid to fix. If you’re struggling to see me, imagine an egg, in a jumper, with the beard of a homeless man

[@xusmico187]

Look at UKRM skills. Much better

[@LMB8708]

Army Combatives was trash as well. Where would one learn authentic WW2 style combatives in the USA? Is there an organization of reputable trainers?

[@xusmico187]

Mcmap designed by a 05 to create a post retirement job. NOT A combat skill. A waste of money another thing wasting tome on skills that are a full time dojo to keep up skills. Follow the money