Tony Klug on the Realities of a 'Two-State Solution'

Is peace possible in the Middle East? What is the difference between a one-state solution and a two-state solution? What is the role of the international community in resolving the conflict between Israel-Hamas?
Rory and Alastair are joined by Tony Klug, leading expert on the two-state solution and conflicts in the Middle East in today's bonus episode.
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[@mangonamnam6855]

As an Israeli I really want to thank you, I think this talk really manages to explain how simple and yet complicated this conflict really is.

[@Crouchy232323]

I say 6 million, Alistair Campbell says 600. Either way it was bad

[@keepitbluezola]

This really really needs to be aired on mainstream TV. Brilliant to hear from a non biased expert on what takes nuance to a different level, whilst too many influential people have been whipping up hatred towards one side or the other.

[@philipmulville8218]

Yes, indeed. It deserves the widest possible audience.

[@ethiopiandancinggoatherder7894]

When you fail in politics then you become an expert…..

[@Rbb0828]

Agree, this was excellent. Best hour I’ve spent listening to someone speak on this subject perhaps ever.

[@Rbb0828]

@@ethiopiandancinggoatherder7894tell me you didn’t listen to the episode without telling me -_-

[@philipmulville8218]

@@Rbb0828 😂

[@iancork9721]

This is my new go to place for news and facts

[@PMMagro]

So nice with experts and people honest when they are not into a certain issue (taking in others to talk about them) for a change :)

[@londresparis_1]

You should have seen Mr. Campbell praising the handling of the crisis by Blinken and Biden a few weeks ago. What a partisan joker 😂😂😂😂

[@TrevorBarre]

?????@@londresparis_1

[@TrevorBarre]

Don't recall your contribution to the Northern Ireland peace process, matey.@@londresparis_1

[@philipmulville8218]

I think Tony’s point about any solution needing to come from within the region is central to the issue. A deeply interesting podcast. Many thanks

[@bradhombre6912]

Amazing guest and excellent interviewing. You gave him enough free range to really share his insights and knowledge, and only when needed, pressed a point if it hadn’t been fully addressed or pulled the conversation back to basics to bring the audience up to speed. We sorely need more of this in the public discourse, and especially on this topic.

[@anna-rosephipps3132]

The solution lies in Tony Klug. He's an expert and never have we needed an expert more than now. Thank you for this education. We all need it. I'm thirsty for facts, for history and understanding. Brilliant podcast

[@zccau2316]

Nope. One state solution

[@QwentyJ]

​@@zccau2316That won't settle anything but scores

[@ChristianeWinzenburg-uo4xb]

Dear Rory & Alistair, thank you for your fabulous & spectacular insightful conversation with Dr Klug. ‘ Nomen est Omen!’ The past weeks and the inflationary coverage of this tragedy in many media outlets, have left me somewhat anxious and frustrated about the lack of intricacies of nuance. I am at an age where I followed developments in the region for many years. I always hoped for a ‘ Two State Solution’. I appreciate the effort and dedication many had invested. Time is truly of the essence. There has to be hope for outcomes which are securing true safety and existence for all!!! I recently joined your community and find it refreshingly factual and informative. THANKS

[@ChangesOneTim]

One of the best programmes/ discussions I've watched that demystifies the complex issues behind one vs two-state solution.

[@Aminur48]

Brilliant interview guys, very fair and educational. Good to know there are potential peaceful solutions to this issue.

[@salmakalisvaart1752]

An excellent summary, and very good interview by both Rory and Alistair, especially as you allowed him to really speak his thoughts without interjecting much. This needs to be aired on national TV, or reach a bigger audience somehow. There is a real absence of the historical context in the narrative today...

[@Ultimateer]

Really love to hear smart people ask inciteful questions and really listen to someone who may know the answers!

[@elizabethfitzgibbon3908]

Rory is special. Speaks so coherently and intelligently!

[@dolinaj1]

Thank you for bringing light without heat on this long-fraught, bloody, and tragic matter.

[@dsjwhite]

Once again, thank you. My head is buzzing and it is so great to hear from such an expert.

[@mahfuzkabir7812]

My issue with all these podcasts about peace is none of them talk about the specifics of a viable peace deal. Rory and Alastair should do an actual deep dive on the specifics as to why the PLO rejected the deal in the 90s and Abbas in ‘08. The guardian did a really good piece on it and explains how lopsided it was from the Palestinian perspective. The devil is in the details and any time a detail is brought up someone says the audience will be bored 😑 This interview today is just a basic discussion about how someone feels. There’s no discussion around water rights, Areas A/B/C, what percentage of territories are being swapped, police/military issues, how to move settlers, status of East Jerusalem, what is politically acceptable on both sides etc.

[@yanivcassuto4198]

i must say i feel the same way, after listening to the whole thing. i agree with you about the first part. i disagree about the second part. the details of territory, water, etc, i believe are already said and done and are dusting up in someone's office locker since the 90's. the main issues i believe that still impede a full resolution apart from political will are the questions about the "right of return" and Jerusalem.

[@mahfuzkabir7812]

I’ll try to find it

[@markmann860]

Yet the Palestinians have never a counter offer on the details, because, I think at the core they won't give up the right of return or wholeheartedly accept Israel's existence

[@pktank1]

@@yanivcassuto4198 have to disagree, the situation has changed massively, the number of settlements/settlers has increased exponentially, how do you move 750,000 people in deeply entrenched towns/cities?

[@yanivcassuto4198]

@pktank1 I think you're raising a valid concern, but I do believe it is possible. Though I have to say, my view is probably not so popular and not so clear cut. Mainly, my view consists of 2 parts incentives+reparations & forced evacuation. And some land swap, but not as extensive as suggested by most experts. Also, there are 200,000-250,000 Israelis in "east Jerusalem". I do not count them in this at the moment. It is a different issue.

[@clivemitchell3229]

One Palestinian Israeli citizen, when asked if she would prefer to live in a Palestinian state said something like, "Of course! We'd be living in our own land, but I'd want Israeli laws!" I get the impression that Arab states tend to be dictatorships with a religious twist which suppresses women. A Palestinian woman living in Israel who has tasted freedom is unlikely to want to lose it. In a two-state solution, what would the Palestinian state truly look like?

[@GeorgeLista]

How was lock down and mandatory vaccination for you in your non-dictatorship country?

[@clivemitchell3229]

@@GeorgeLista Temporary

[@stephaniesnape6787]

An extremely important point. Thank you

[@lazy_rock69]

That might be true for some but we are overlooking the racism and discrimination which sadly has not just been in abundance among the Jewish citizens but part of the policy of the Israeli right wing government. That makes the situation so complex and the reason why many Arabs would not prefer living under one state.

[@thewoodster8607]

You make a very good point that I don't think was picked up during the interview. Israel is a democracy but who knows what a Palestinian state would be? In 2005 Palestinians voted for HAMAS. As a result, an implacable terrorist organisation is parasitic upon and embedded within the Palestinian population. The difference in religion is not really explored either. Very difficult issues.

[@thegrumpygeordie9007]

I was talking about the sitation in this area with someone at work and told them I'd visited many years ago. When I said I'd been to Jerusalem she actually said "Is that a real place? I thought they made it up for the story" and this is a university graduate. This is the level of history knowlege

[@user-bl2lu2nx2u]

Heavan. Help. Us. These. Are. The. Types. Who. Go. On. The. Rampage. They. Have. No. Idea. Just. That. They. Joined. A. Brainwashed. Mob😂😂

[@xtxrx2349]

Absolutely brilliantly podcast from Alistair, Rory and outstanding contributions from Tony. This needs to be infront of more eyeballs. Some of the best discussions RE this topic is on this platform.

[@eliseleonard3477]

Thank you guys for bringing such great guests and doing such a good job of bringing out their insights in a way that most curious viewers/listeners can understand. This is such a tangled history and it takes more than a simple black/white view.

[@MrTurjacanin]

Hello Alastair and Rory! I do enjoy your podcast! I’d love to hear your take on Serbian politics. On the 17th of December elections take place. These elections bear significance in terms of foreign relations: the EU wants Serbia to de facto recognize Kosovo as an independent state. Additionally, Serbia as of yet did not impose any sanctions on Russia. The pro-EU/Western opposition polls around 15-20%. The similar 80-20 split can be found in favor of no sanctions, not “quitting” on Kosovo (and ethnic Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Montenegro). Cheers!

[@MrRaceyrachel]

I absolutely love your videos. I think you are both extremely dedicated to the truth. I never feel there is a bias towards one view. Really informative and nuanced. I personally value being fair. I cannot be fair in my assessment of a complex situation, which this is, if I don't know the facts. Thank you very much. Absolutely superb!

[@tiggersix]

Factual correction about the separation of Czechoslovakia. Neither Slovak nor Czech population wanted dissolution of Czechoslovakia, their respective elected politicians did as it would have increased their relative power. Wikipedia: "In a September 1992 opinion poll, only 37% of Slovaks and 36% of Czechs favoured dissolution."

[@joshwoodrow3942]

What an incredibly objective truthful and knowledgeable insight. By far the best breakdown I've heard

[@benjaminblakemore9704]

I live next to an asian one side, an arab on the other. We do not disturb each other at all, we respect each others opportunities to live and work and build a family 🙏 how is that so hard bro????

[@chrisdickens4268]

The fact people would need most of this explained is pretty damning

[@TrevorBarre]

Why? We can't all be omniscient like you. The situation in this part of the world is complex, and I very much doubt if most people in this country have taken a huge interest in the middle east, given there is not much we over here can do anything about.

[@SK-hq6ux]

@@TrevorBarre I respectfully hold a different perspective. The issue is deliberately presented as complex, discouraging individual research. However, I believe we play an active role. The example of Brexit, even if I disagree, underscores the pursuit of independence. Perhaps, as a steadfast ally, we can influence the USA to adopt a more constructive and supportive role in the region. Our role is not passive; it involves active engagement and potential influence on a broader scale.

[@elinstar6034]

No, I try to remember facts and dates but I forget. Plus history has a way of shifting.

[@t5kcannon1]

Interesting discussion. Thanks.

[@rosalindchurcher8028]

Thankyou for educating us mere mortals.

[@sa9861]

I love discussions like this and have listened to several over the past two months learning so much about the current conflict and its origins. Thank you.

[@saliexplore3094]

Recently subscribed to The Rest Is Politics and have no regrets!

[@elizabethfitzgibbon3908]

Another great talk!

[@kierand9410]

Great interview with some well-judged questions. A fiercely intelligent and pragmatic man.

[@SK-hq6ux]

I found this insight truly captivating-this presentation of was like unlocking a hidden treasure for me. Particularly, Cambell's observation struck a chord with me at the end. It resonates in the notion that while many assume familiarity with history, it's those like the gentlemen in the video, dedicating considerable time to its exploration, who unravel its intricate tapestry, revealing layers of understanding that elude the casual observer. Thank you for bringing such rich insights to light.

[@marchoodless8150]

What a fascinating and informative interview. Many thanks for another great video.

[@FerdinandZebua]

"The two-state solution is an impossibility." So was peace in Ireland. Until it wasn't.

[@toi_techno]

There's no comparison. The protestants in NI think local catholics are second-class citizens. The Euro colonists in Palestine think the local muslims are vermin.

[@grayssportsalmanac85]

There wasn't the problem of 700k illegal settlers in Ireland though. 🤔

[@vatsmith8759]

I think there is only an armistice in Ireland, not proper peace.

[@scout3591]

Great interview but he seemed to dance around the issue of religion. Yes, it is about land, power, and self determination but a core stumbling block is religion and the history that comes with it. Again I really enjoy the videos!

[@Eric-qo5kf]

An excellent dive into the complexities of the ongoing issues between two divided cultures. Mr Klug identifies, correctly in my opinion, the need for each side to absolutely attain it’s own independence whilst living alongside others with a differing independence. I liked the county boundaries analogy! Unfortunately, unlike the other great conflicts that were ‘settled’ in the 20th century, there is the total absence of visionary leaders, with strong support, who can bring about new and radical thinking. New, popular and imaginative (young) leaders need to emerge!

[@scottharrison812]

Very informative interview, thank you.

[@davidvita]

Thank you very much for this. … and let’s hope for better 2024 😅

[@AS_HE_IS_SO_R_WE]

Thankyou both for this interviewer... I pray similar wise heads will help help shape the region

[@annedobson-mack3688]

I would like to hear Klug’s opinion on the role of the UNWRA in the ongoing conflict and its responsibility for the plight of the Palestinians.

[@colulegs95]

really nice interview, thank you. I wish you would re-upload the whole version that you uploaded a couple of days ago, I couldn't finish it and it was quite interesting

[@BenCragg1]

I think this is the same version - the previous upload just had some visual problems that I assume they've fixed in this one

[@mikeburke2488]

Really helpful insight.

[@noreenquinn3844]

Great interviewing technique and great humility in answering. When talking about self determination. What difference would each side ( the citizens) want that would prevent a one state solution? What rules, laws, customs, etc. separate the two sides that are so essential. What would each do differently in a one state solution? If these were laid out and the areas that are common and different established. Then, maybe everyone would know what exactly they are fighting over and what areas of compromise could be found. Obviously, nice houses would have to be built for the poor and jobs so that this type of solution would have long-term potential to work. Similarly, some cultural items to facilitate customs. Like areas for live stock.

[@annedobson-mack3688]

What about the Arabs (of all religions) who remained in Israel in 1947 and remained in Israel, as Israeli citizens after Israel beat back the invading Arab armies who sought to push them into the sea and eliminate the state of Israel? Klug doesn’t seem to recognize that Israel did not eject these people, but allowed them to stay.

[@johnomalley760]

His ideas about a two state solution to hopefully come from within the region is quite instructive. All sides will have to negotiate in the end in order to trash out a fair and just solution.

[@user-bl2lu2nx2u]

It's. Clear. That. Giving. The. Arabs. Any. Part. Of. Israel. Would. Only. Give. Them. A. Taste. For. More. And. More. And. More

[@nicoleg-]

Amazing conversation. Very balanced. A must watch!

[@neworleans75]

Great discussion. One point though on Klug's reference to Czechoslovakia. It's separation is not a template or a model. CZ/SK Politicians favored the separation of CZ and not the populace, and the political elite knew that with approaching EU membership meant that separation was largely trivial in its impact. Also a lone US President did stand up on funding and the settlements, G Bush Snr, when he threatened to pull their loan guarantees if they did not stop settlements.

[@garethyoung6067]

Excellent lovely man

[@mickohare237]

Great interview lads, very informative, keep up the good work.👍

[@richarddeh5399]

Great interview. I worked in Gaza & the West Bank post the Oslo Accords and Tony Klug is absolutely correct. When I got there, PA officials were still arriving from the diaspora and the sense of euphoria was palpable. When Rabin was assasinated we were all shocked and saddened but with Peres we thought we still had a "partner for peace" (and yes that was the nomenclature). When Netenyahu took power we knew we'd lost our peace partner and Abu Amar was cast adrift. I think there was a fleeting glimmer of hope with Ehud Barack, but quickly snuffed out.

[@RasmusDyhrFrederiksen]

Fantastic - nuanced and deep discussion.

[@simonjacobs1]

Glad to see this is back up! :) - Another incredible chat.

[@izbot53]

Brilliant show keep it up please

[@mikekramer7737]

If an outsider has worked for 50 years on pushing the most likely successful strategy, isn't it time to change the role of outsiders. A policy aimed at mediating dialogue, rewarding peaceful behaviour and withdrawing support for the opposite, could clarify that the resolution should come from within and that there is the prospect of prosperity for the pursuit of peaceful coexistence.

[@charlesmartin1121]

The two state solution is the only just and fair conclusion that can be reached. Just one problem. It is a practical impossibility.

[@MrBoliao98]

A vassal state, perhaps? A vassalised demilitarised Palestine.

[@maori_brotha]

So was Northern Ireland....and South Africa

[@janeknight3597]

It may be the geography.

[@JelMain]

@@maori_brotha Northern Ireland had peace on the table in 1977 - Fred Mulley, Labour's Defence Minister reacted badly and Bob Nairac died. I know because I was offered Bob's job. Johnny Mercer was Bob's boss, and is one of Rory's circle. Peace was never entirely off the table. South Africa saw a negotiated Truth and Reconciliation Commission find a path to peace. That's the difference.

[@michaelhughes7458]

Israel fighting Islam 1.5 billion of them people need to read the Koran it’s all there.

[@shawoomco]

Nakba - it was 750,000 Arabs who weren't called Palestinians in 1948. And most of them escaped the battle, not expelled.

[@Spitfire67UK]

Brilliant as always

[@MonkeyswithGuns]

fairo to robby for trying to wrangle the man into actually answering the question asked instead of him going on a tangent about the question itself

[@inter-linked]

Klug nailed it.

[@Andy111Woodcock]

You have to respect a man who can distinguish between continuous and contiguous 3:55 🔟 Top marks

[@philipPatterson-w1t]

Great show .

[@westaussiejeff1547]

Great Vlog! Thanks

[@derollo3]

35:20 Splitting of Czechoslovakia was done purely by politicians, there was no referendum or voting done by the public. Slovaks has half dictatorial prime minister who wanted as much control as possible over his country and didn't want to have oversight/critique from the Czech side. Czechs on the other hand didn't want to have problems with Slovakia and try to manage it as both countries were in a very bad economical state in the beginning of 90s, it was mutualy beneficial and pragmatic decision. As to why there was no war, I believe that depended mostly on the history and culture of both countries and is generally a very complex topic. I don't think the conditions are by far similar to Czechoslovakia in Israel-Palestine relationship and history of both countries and their inhabitants which is significantly different.

[@berniefynn6623]

Besides them, many Arab sources confirm the fact that the Holy Land was still Jewish by population and culture in spite of the Diaspora: ·In 985 c.e. the Arab writer Muqaddasi complained that in Jerusalem the large majority of the population were Jewish, and said that "the mosque is empty of worshippers..." . ·Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable Arab historians, in 1377 c.e. wrote: "Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel extended over 1400 years... It was the Jews who implanted the culture and customs of the permanent settlement". After 300 years of Arab rule in the Holy Land, Ibn Khaldun attested that Jewish culture and traditions were still dominant. By that time there was still no evidence of "Palestinian" roots or culture . ·The historian James Parker wrote: "During the first century after the Arab conquest [670-740 c.e.], the caliph and governors of Syria and the [Holy] Land ruled entirely over Christian and Jewish subjects. Apart from the Bedouin in the earliest days, the only Arabs west of the Jordan were the garrisons". Even though the Arabs ruled the Land from 640 c.e. to 1099 c.e., they never became the majority of the population. Most of the inhabitants were Christians (Assyrian and Armenian) and Jews.

[@soccersprint]

Many years ago a group brought crocodiles from other lands to inhabit a lake and the crocodiles attacked and ate the smaller existing caiman in the lake and forced the caiman to move to smaller ponds near the lake. Soon there were no fish in the lake and no anmls came to drink there. The ones who brought the crocodiles kept replenishing the lake with millions of fish from their country. Eventually they brought more crocodiles there, and wanted to expand the big lake to flow over into all the nearby small ponds where there were still some caiman. They started digging up the land to allow a path for the lake to flow into the ponds. The digging and destruction of the ponds killed many of the native caiman and the crocodiles took over those areas and attacked and ae the caiman. Farmers who's cattle drank from surrounding lakes miles away became concerned about the unnatural lake containing the hungry crocodiles. They began to prepare to prevent the crocodiles from moving over too their lakes and killing theor cattle. They appealed to the people who brought the crocodiles to their region to stop bringing crocodiles and stop digging ip the land to connect lakes. All they did was say "we will ask the crocodiles to cease eating the caiman and cattle for a while. They wanted a Two lake solution. One for crocodiles and one for caiman, but they wanted to put a fence in the lake and pretend that its two lakes. The truth is that they always wanted an all crocodile lake but in a land where there were already caiman living in the lakes. They decided to eliminate all the caiman and replace them with crocodiles although crocodiles are dangerous for those in that region, and caiman could end up extinct in that region if the crocodiles are not controlled.

[@shaiby58]

Mr. Klug presents himself as an objective arbiter with deep knowledge of both sides. This is not the case. Interestingly, he never mentions the one Palestinian claim that has scuppered any prospective deal which is the so-called “Right of “Return” to pre 1948 Palestine. This demand is the one demand that no Israeli government, even of the most extreme left could never accept. Mr. Klug can go on about settlements as a barrier to the two state solution but in fact the return issue was the one that put paid to all the negotiations after The Oslo accords. Another issue which he refuses to address is Hamas’primary role in the destruction of the Oslo accords. He may believe that Arafat wanted peace (a matter which is still very questionable) but the fact of the matter is that after Rabin’s assassination it was Hamas’ appalling terrorist attacks in the Spring of 1996 which brought about Shimon Peres’ loss to Netanyahu in the elections of May 1996. Arafat did not (or could not) do anything to stop those attacks! This is atypical European leftist trope of absolving the Palestinians of blame for their responsibility for the reality on the ground and blaming the Israelis. I am no fan of Mr. Netanyahu and his right-wing messianic government, but we must be honest about the blame for the collapse of the peace process and the death of the two-state solution. It was the Palestinian leadership who wasted every opportunity to reach such a solution, at the second Camp David conference in 2000 at the Taba negotiations (2001) and the Annapolis meetings in 2008-9. None of these meetings gets even a mention in your apparently learned debate. I have my thoughts on why this is so, but I will keep them to myself. In any case, Mr. Klug’s position as an objective arbiter is one that must be taken with a grain of salt.

[@ryand141]

Well, exactly, all of the events you describe happened after the assassination of Rabin who did want peace. He was assassinated by an Israeli because he was moving things forward towards peace. The Israelis are the occupying force also, and have been from the beginning.

[@fialeks]

Rory, I will buy you a pint, but you can't drink it. It is a symbolic pint. It is yours, but you can't drink it.

[@gaj89363]

Rory you need to become our prime minister!

[@steveknight878]

Definitely. It will never happen. He is too thoughtful, introspective and intelligent.

[@SK-hq6ux]

@@steveknight878 I feel like politics changes people or at least the perception of them, we certainly would not be privy to these kinds of conversations anymore, such is the issue surrounding the political landscape. The current political landscape is marked by challenges, particularly a lack of transparency. Negotiations often demand overcompensation and secrecy, limiting the information available to the public. This dynamic hinders open conversations, contributing to a growing disconnect between the political process and public awareness.

[@lecomptejos3342]

My english is very bad,but why the Belgium(Brussels) solution is not mentionned?Is it why the last casualty was more than 50 years ago?Nevertheless this was a brilliant and very inspiring interview.

[@alextabet9247]

Correction. While Israel evacuated Gazza in 2005-2006, it remained in full control of it, essentially turning it into a prison.

[@ninesfm6817]

AGAIN: thank you ever SO much….

[@terryhand]

Nothing to do with Israel/Palestine, but I suspect that the Kremlin would not agree with Alistair that the Cold War is over. What does he think has been happening since 2014?

[@buzzukfiftythree]

I get the feeling sometimes that the Middle East, indeed parts of the whole world, have not really progressed that much since biblical times. I suppose that, in the context of the Earth’s existence, the intervening period between then and now is a few seconds. Frankly, I doubt that there will ever be peace and tribal conflict will continue. My late Dad always reckoned that WWIII would start in the Middle East. I argued against that at the time he said it. Now, I’m not so sure. I deplore the Hamas terrorist attack, but when you look at how their homeland Palestine has been squeezed more and more since the establishment of Israel, it’s really not that surprising that Palestinians feel aggrieved.

[@upendasana7857]

The 2 world wars were about European powers and involved the colonial territories,accusing the middle east or Africa and other places of being "stuck"in tribalism or not involving is a bloody cheek considering the hige world wars which have happened in Europe with millions upon millions killed and then the ongoing wars,many of which have been caused and armed by western powers intervenining in the politics and economies of post colonial countries.The west has developped their wealth and economies based on the subjugation and extraction of resources of those now "less developed countries"which did not exists as the modern nation states which were forced upon them by colonial authorities. The middle east would probably be doing just fine of Europe had not been intervening and meddling for the last few hundred years,backing corrupt regimes and destablising the whole region...yeah Europe is so advanced isn't it.!!!

[@adamdavidson4089]

I did the rough maths and, contrary to what Rory said, in a one state solution, if you ignore the right to return, the Palestinians would still be about 1m shy of a majority so it could still be described as a Jewish state.

[@vatsmith8759]

After October 7th how can anyone expect Israel to live next door to a fully-armed Palestinian state?

[@betperrins7528]

Totally fascinating; not sure I feel hopeful though.

[@AlexanderRivkind]

There are few things that surprised me about the expert: 1. Claim that the conflict is purely territorial i.e. denying the religious aspect of it. It seems he sees religious argument as a tool to advance territorial agenda. This argument is easier to accept for Israel but really difficult for Palestine (IMO). 2. He tried hard to avoid one big alleged problem with one state solution - sides don't trust each other and totally expect to be expelled once the other side gets majority/control. 3. Liberal democracy is a "Western value"? What is Eastern value? Theocracy? 4. Cold war conflict was not solved. We had a break and it's now back. Edit: I realized it sounded too critical. It was not intentional. I enjoyed the interview, we definitely need more experts but a few things surprised me nevertheless...

[@ImperialGuardsman74]

How is liberal democracy not a western value? It was born in the west, by western philosophy, ethics and processes. It quite directly spread out of the west to other countries. Japan's constitution was written by an american general. Eastern value doesn't exist as you'd have to find one that applies to a very diverse east. But in the middle east secular atomized individualism is clearly foreign. Wider religious, local, family, tribe identities are too important for the politics of individualism

[@AlexanderRivkind]

@@ImperialGuardsman74 Let's try to disect it. First of all, when we look at the line between the West and the East, Arab/Muslim world will be a part of the Western tradition, while India and China will go to the Eastern. It should not be surprising. We can trace Western political thought back to Plato and Aristotle. But when Europe went into dark ages and book burning, philosophical tradition continued in the Arab/Muslim world. Look at one of the most famous during Islamic Golden Age - Ibn Sina/Avicenna - he commented on Aristotle a lot and actually is considered Aristotelian. Another example - Al-Farabi outlined a model of an ideal society governed by a philosopher-king... does it ring a bell? So Western philosophical/political tradition is definitely not foreign to Arab/Muslim world. When we talk about liberalism as a concept we typical accredit French, British and German philosophers of 17th-18th century with it (we typically name Locke, Montesquieu, etc.) but we can easily trace fundamental ideas back to ancient Greece. And of course liberalism had complex relationship with religion, sometimes embracing, sometime being at odds, eventually winning the battle for a secular state. But Muslim world also had its wave of liberalism in 19th century (Rifa'a al-Tahtawi, Muhammad Abduh) and of course they were at odds with Islamism, and Islamism ended up being stronger. Just because we won that battle against Christianity does not mean Arab world does not deserve winning their battle. And the last thing - liberal values. I firmly believe values are universal. On a very fundamental level liberalism is about personal freedom and equality before the law. Everything else follows. People in the East value personal freedom and equality just like people in the West. This trope "Foreign liberal value" is used by every single dictator in the World. Listen to Putin for example. But what can they offer instead? Some vague "traditional value" (which on practice usually mean the right to stone to death homosexuals). This ended up pretty wordy, I'll be impressed if you've got this far... but we need to stop calling liberalism, democracy, freedom, equality uniquely Western. It's not true on any level - be it about pure values or political thought. Not only it is arrogant, but by doing this we are helping all the autocrats and theocrats of the world advancing their narratives.

[@ImperialGuardsman74]

@@AlexanderRivkind It's rather tired to pretend ancient greeks were liberal to try and paint a whig history. Plato is anything but liberal and anything but an individualist. Perhaps some roots can be found but they're not the only roots ancient greeks are responsible for. You can cherry pick an islamic liberal or two in the 19th century the same way you could cherry pick ayn rand and julius evola in the west and then state look, western thought is this. It's very much so a curiousity rather than the main line of thought. As for saying that your values are universal - that's just colonialism. Putin is not unpopoular in Russia for his social views. Middle east is not stoning people because dictators tell them to. There's genuine belief in other values than your own, and it's much more widespread. To pretend your values are universal when they're not even the majority's values is both whiggish and arrogant. Especially as it's a metaphysical or ontological belief at that point as empirical evidence does not prove it.

[@sarawoods1450]

@@AlexanderRivkind The West has separation of church and state it is not a concept in Islam! So you will have petrol theocratic tyrants

[@jacquelinemahoney621]

Brilliant podcast and I would agree there is no political motivation to find a solution my observations I would agree this is one two groups of people want the land and will not discuss anything further than gaining fully that land. I also agree the West have not done anything tangible to slow down the policy of settlements which brings us to where we are today.

[@ravimathews1973]

I'm absolutely astonished, im at 45 mins into this interview and there has been no discussion on Camp David, Olmert's proposal, Wye River....etc. Round & Round from Oslo to the present and back. The seeds of a solution must be contained in the other proposals since Oslo

[@SK-hq6ux]

They explain at the end, the purpose of the presentation is to provide a comprehensive amount of information in a manner that is both palatable and understandable. The intention is to avoid confusion and prevent the issue from becoming overly complex, thereby fostering belief in the possibility of finding a solution. Interestingly, some comments under the video indicate that this objective may have not been achieved anyway, with some expressing skepticism about the feasibility of finding a resolution despite the ease of the video in my opinion.

[@ravimathews1973]

Didn't see any specific discussion on peace proposals and the details which are the most important thing towards the end either. Given that they got in an expert - this interview was disappointing. Certainly not enough depth in the questions

[@ravimathews1973]

This documentary from PBS first released 20 yrs ago and then re-released on YT is brilliant at explaining the history. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oKWWgaOnlrGZrtEsi=KaXvDYyBFfKcJKDR

[@wakarrizvi6613]

The whole point is Justice. Jews where unjustly treated. Now Palestinians have suffered a similar fate. The point is is suits global players if the conflict continues. Example tech and military companies. We need justice to prevail for the sake of both sides. Netanyahu needs to be in Jail.

[@mikefraser5085]

Its astonishing to hear Klug say its about land. It is NOT about land

[@bcazz5202]

What I was taught in US High School in the late '70's, right next to one of the largest US Military bases, was that Israel was the Middle East branch of the USAF. Without their air power in the region, oil would stop flowing. Most US Citizens have kind of forgotten the importance of 'stability' in the Middle East by now. I guarantee that if the flow of oil is threatened by proposed changes in Israel, Washington will take notice. On the other hand, as I type this I look back at my father's career in military intelligence and is amazing how fast they went from hunting Nazi's post WWII, to using "ex" Nazi's to hunt commies by the early 1950's. Perhaps much of the current Palestinian support signals a change in Washington's strategy in how to keep the oil flowing. If that's the case, Israel is doomed.

[@moffattF]

I would like to know what the historical claims are for each side.

[@CJ-dk7hc]

why is this not in the Apple podcast?

[@Marklovesdrama]

A very interesting podcast, particularly the point that the west should not try to impose their model of secular democracy government on other countries.

[@aFar1s]

I’m 30 mins into this, and I can’t carry on. No wonder he didn’t get anything done in 50 years. This man is such a blast from the past. I would imagine this was what it was like listening to Neville Chamberlain in the lead up to WWII. “If both sides can’t “agree” it will be a never ending conflict.” What complete and utter bs.

[@CaptainUrielVentris7]

To call it fundamentally a conflict over land seems off to me, if that was the most essential part to both parties wouldn't a system with shared territory or a single state have worked?

[@ryand141]

Yes, I agree. It's as much religious as it is geography. Most israelis are east European jews claiming rights based on a holy book of nonsense. These are the Jews that are in power, far right-wing zionists hellbent on destruction of anyone who opposes their views. This cannot be discounted. That's why Netanyahu is now finished. Mark my words. Israel is not seeking peace and secure borders.

[@diamondjr2584]

You should interview Gideon Levy

[@rjdavies1982]

I think the wider world needs to intervene and now force the creation of the two state solution

[@TrevorBarre]

Have you actually listened to this podcast??

[@rjdavies1982]

@@TrevorBarre absolutely, enjoyed it very much - interesting insight from a gentleman with a lifetime of experience looking into Israel-Palestine conflict. My formulated opinion is as stated above - I take it you're of a different opinion?

[@SK-hq6ux]

​@@rjdavies1982 I believe he is referring to how Tony has emphasised the need for change to come from within. But I feel your solution is also expressed by Tony, -acknowledging that broader enforcement is necessary but emphasising that it should not be driven solely by the economic motivations of outside countries- obviously it is not possible for the USA to do that anymore.

[@rjdavies1982]

@@SK-hq6uxI suspected that what his meaning and agree with your assessment of Tony’s position. I don’t believe external powers alone can resolve this situation but clearly something needs to change. As to how the wider community can encourage resolution I don’t know - perhaps a combination of incentives and penalties? Also, Netanyahu has to go.

[@Irishtradchannel]

Hamas are completely opposed to peace or co existence, most Palestinians are uninterested in a 2 state solution or co existence.

[@oliverc1961]

It needn't be THAT complicated. When some South Asian Muslims decided it would be nice to create an Islamic Republic and other South Asian Muslims reluctantly fled India under extreme threat from militant Hindus, Pakistan was created and that was an absolute disaster for local Hindus. In Karachi, for instance, the population changed from 50/50 Muslim and Hindu, in 1947, to just 0.86 per cent Hindu now. Does anyone protest on behalf of Sindhi Hindus? Of course not. There are countless examples of one group of people being displaced by another group of people and the ONLY example we fret about is the one in which the Jews are the displacers.

[@Maniglia878]

A kingdom to change men must change.

[@dermotcooper4713]

Shame on Google/KZbin; I am right on the point of giving this up for the alternatives: Yes, there are some. I watched this yesterday and found it to be the best discussion of the current situation by a long way, leave it up, sez I.

[@vitaminjuk]

The version last night had huge black gaps where there should have been wide shots! This is now fixed, no conspiracy!

[@restispolitics]

Thank you!

[@khurmiful]

Why was the video taken down and shortened?

[@colulegs95]

I don't know, I started watching It the other day but couldn't finish it and then they took it down... They probably removed some part that was firing up people in the comments...

[@Martian_Secret_Agent]

Nah it wasn’t about that (although it cross my mind) - the original video was a tiny bit faulty so they took it down and fixed it. I didn’t realise it was shorter however.

[@ondrejhradil2912]

35:00. Mr. Klug is dead wrong here. Czechoslovakia expelled 3 million of her fellow german citizens to Germany in 1945 for their contribution to atrocities committed during WWII. Since that time Western part of Czechoslovakia called Czechia has been inhabited almost by Czechs. Ethnic cleansing par excellence. And IMHO the only solution for Gaza, Judea and Samaria.

[@BhaskarRoy-t4w]

One shocking thing found after Hamas attack, most Israelis today are not aware of Palestinians' issue.

[@EmanueleC_BR]

Its back! I got half way when it came down

[@flamboyentpromotions3471]

You should bring on someone like IIan Pappe to explain the Israel Palestinian situation also, one of the new historians or Avi Shlaim who is an Oxford Professor of history

[@josefschiltz2192]

Should either, or preferably both sides, achieve the unlikely event of dropping the notion of self-deifying hierarchical superiority then that might be a start. 😒

[@elspethgibson7625]

When we talk of two states solution we always expect the exspelling of all settlers. They could live within a Palestinian state in the same way as some Palestinians live within the Israeli state