Too many pigs, not enough horses. 4-1-86

This is what happens when 12 axles worth of GP40s try to take too much train around the Horseshoe Curve unassisted. The leader, 3005, is a GP40 while 3311 and 3388 Are GP40-2s
When TV3M got to Altoona the dispatcher notified him that he had no helper available. The dispatcher told him to go as far as he could and by that time a returning helper set would be available to be cross over behind him and shove him to Gallitzin.
While the crew of TV3M sits and waits for helpers to rescue them, another pig train shows them the right way to get the job done as they sail past them on the adjacent track with two former Erie Lackawanna SD45-2s as point helpers.
Finally our forlorn TV3M gets her helpers and proceeds up the mountain to Gallitzin and beyond.
That's my dad about 100 feet away at the other tripod.
Pop has since gone on to where the T1s, K4s, Hudsons and Niagaras still race each other out of Englewood Union Station.
VHS Master Recording

[@yankinga]

It never ceases to amaze me how many people do not bother to read my detailed notes. For all you armchair power-desk geniuses that think that you have all the answers, let me repeat my original comments. THERE WAS NO HELPER AVAILABLE AT ALTOONA. THE CREW WAS TOLD TO PROCEED AS FAR AS THEY COULD. THEY WERE FULLY EXPECTED TO STALL. THIS WAS NOT A MISCALCULATION. Now go play with your Lego locomotives, or watch Thomas, and leave the railroading to the professional railroaders. Better yet, go work on your reading comprehension.

[@Retired88M]

So it’s better to tie up a track out in the line then to keep the train in the yard until more power is available?

[@aidanmurray3704]

One of my favorite videos of yours. I find the date ironic since it (4/1/86) was the 10 year anniversary of Conrail's creation.

[@scottperry6674]

Hey you Know them geeps were dug in giving everything they had, unfortunately gravity prevailed! ! Long live our memories of THE BIG BLUE!!

[@Goetterdaemmerung86]

Man, listen to that rumble of those engines! Nothing more thrilling than a locomotive running wide open!

[@kevinwrynn2659]

Nothing can stop a SD-45. I ask a EMD engineer at the EMD LaGrange open house in 1997; what made the SD-45 such a great puller? He emphatically said the 645E3A 20-cylinder engine torque. He said at run 8 the engine was putting out over 30000lbs of torque to the alternator . He said no other locomotive engine had this kind of power. The 20-cyclinder torques up fast and it holds the amps steady under severe pull loads which creates a TE that is level and reliable in all situations. Personally I miss seeing and hearing them dominant heavy mountainous railroads across the country. It's too bad Conrail was bought out by the two GE dominated railroads. Conrail was working with EMD on the 20-cyclinder SD-80MAC in 1995. Conrail was going to buy hundreds of the SD-80 model. The railroad was acquired and broken up and the plan never materized.

[@optimus4800]

Wow! This brings back memories.I have still shots of this same situation east of Kittanning Point. The GP40's got to Horseshoe Curve and the caboose stopped right in front of my photo position. I helped the angry conductor remove the stuck EOT device so that the SDP45 helpers could couple onto the hind end.

[@MrAdrianc100]

Have watched this over and over, just love the sound of those GP's and know there was the father and son team capturing it all and sharing with us. Wish there was more of it!

[@DavidWright-yn9bi]

Grew up watching Conrail go through my back yard. Love the blue! Now it's NFS. Great memories with the caboose!

[@keithode1737]

3:26 The view under the train of the helpers dropping down grade is the sickest shit I've ever seen.

[@Okrollins1]

Last time I passed Horseshoe Curve I fell asleep before we got there. I was pissed. I did take the tour with my kids several years before.

[@MrZeldalove]

Wow! I've never seen that before - a train stalling out . SD's to the rescue!

[@Thej611]

"hey conductor, could you just get out and give us a little push?"

[@brianpollick54]

Yeah you dont see any cabooses anymore. I took my 6 year old nephew to the railroaders museum last summer and when he saw the caboose in the yard he pointed and said what a funny locomotive. Technology is better, but replaces great memories. Great video!

[@donmoore7785]

Thank you for posting. Sorry to hear about your dad's passing - he must have been having a good time on this day filming with you.

[@stephenadams595]

Can't beat the old EMD's. Reliable and get the job done. Still using the 645 V 12's in New Zealand.

[@carrieslantern9224]

This was a new recommend for me from youtube, it was just after the july 2019 de railment. Liked it a lot. Good picture for the age of the film and nice to get two views of the tracks. Thanks for sharing the video.

[@moonspots01]

Excellent camera work. I especially liked the shot of the helper units descending and rolling past TV3M.

[@donreed7018]

Incredible! Someone on the Internet actually provided a tape with a chronological date (the event date)!

[@agent1966]

Great video capture. thanks for sharing it.

[@peterhanahoe4913]

like this very much, love the conrail blue and nice to know what's going on. Also nice that your dad was out there enjoying the trains.

[@Zach_Bloomquist]

Thanks for posting this great Big Blue footage!

[@boutcha1]

Big Blue put the vittles on my household tables during my younger years after the consolidation. Thanks for some memories. I used to get to ride the rails with my dad. Better than any roller coaster in the World. I'm subbed.

[@RollThunProd]

What a great documentation! Thanks for sharing!

[@engineerskalinera]

Very sorry for your dad, but at least he's having a fun time watching them t1s

[@yankinga]

Thank you. We can only hope that steam is still running in the hereafter.

[@1990scottsdale]

Lol that second train sure packed power compared to the stalled one.. lmao

[@judefernandez827]

Your title says it all .Thank you for the great video .

[@CRQ5508]

I don't know if I've commented this before to this video, but this is just pure awesomeness. Nothing sounds better in my ear than EMD's 645E3 in run8 and they never sounded better than when at a stall speed; fully loaded and really digging in. So much has changed on the hill since this video, none for the better in my opinion. The 40 series are gone and so is the bright blue. Not quite the same anymore.

[@rowsdower12]

Thanks for the video and info on these diesels.

[@edhilferty9287]

We had a VP that thought helpers were a waste, 2019 they are still in service.

[@kingtiger59]

Great Video thank you for sharing. The sound of EMD power is great.

[@chrisnzella]

Awesome sound through my Bose headset and the video is great too. Thanks for sharing.

[@iancontreras7688]

So fantastic. Wish I was old enough to see Big Blue in action.

[@peacefulmind1559]

Thank you for putting this video on You Tube. I need to go to horse shoe curve some day.

[@jrs6266]

I plan on going to HS curve and dieing while watching the trains

[@theengineerscab1317]

Sry to hear you loss But Great Vid..i do miss the Conrail era as i lived in Allentown until 1987 ..

[@ChachaChapati]

Classic EMDs. Can't not think of the old SP SD-40s when I hear the Conrail Geeps here struggling.

[@christopherscarpino8994]

Special video. Back in 1986, I was living in Johnstown, Pa. Only about 35 miles from the Horseshoe Curve.

[@yankinga]

Often times locomotive consists are arranged so there is an operators cab at each end. This way the locomotive can be dispatched in either direction without turning, or rearranging the individual units. Diesel units operate equally well, regardless of which way they are facing.

[@formidable38]

Qaulity EMD sounds!! Thanks for putting this up, its great!

[@freeamericausa1]

I was born in Pennsylvania. Lived about 90 miles from Horseshoe curve, and never saw it in person. Sometimes the SAND for three engines just isn't enough. So..you wait until two more push you from behind. That's why, and how America works.

[@amtrak706]

This is awesome! Listen to those 645s pound away as the geeps claw up the hill. That second train was moving quite along too.

[@BTCRAILFILMS]

I love the view at 1:12!! Absoulte awesome view of Conrail power!!

[@BigRichMann]

Nice idea filming underneath the passing train to see the action! Good going!

[@yankinga]

Appreciate the compliment, Rich. Thank you.

[@yankinga]

Does anybody bother to read my description? Click on "Show more and it's all explained there.

[@inyobill]

"Read the instructions"? Ya gotta be kidding!

[@Hamchunk1968]

Nice. I've never been over where you took the video. I tend to stay in the park. And I like being in Gallitzin, at the Tunnel Inn. The whole slope is fun, though it's been a few years since I've been there.

[@bugpack6]

So awesome.. I have always wanted to go watch trains..

[@wesolint]

Awesome! Thanks for sharing.

[@ERIELACKU34CH]

fantastic video. filming angles are wonderful.

[@klbird]

An interesting moment in railroad history that will not be duplicated again. Sorry about your dad, but he is still out there in spirit watching K4s and T1s battle the grade with the varnish of the past.

[@fredstuckmann]

Very nicely done. Happy 10th Anniversary Conrail. Sorry about your Dad.

[@yankinga]

@awfulguitarplucker Conrail owned plenty of powerful locomotives. Here's the backstory. This train arrived at Altoona at the base of the grade to find no helper locomotives available. The dispatcher decided to send him up the hill unassisted, with the expectation that he would stall en route. By then a helper consist would be available to assist the train to the summit. Conrail's philosophy at that time was to use 4-axle power on 'hot" trains and assist with 6-axle power on "the mountain".

[@yankinga]

Thanks for the positive comments. Glad you enjoyed it.

[@canonvideoman]

those 45-2s leading where great!!

[@Seaboard1321]

Wonderful sound, and it came clear. Must have had a nice camera in 86!!! Thanks for sharing!!

[@b3j8]

Great video, man gotta LOVE hearing those GP-40's working their guts out! Great too that you have a video record of railfanning w/your Dad there! Did the same w/my Dad back in the late 1960's watching the PRR. But no video, and we didn't think to take pictures of each other watching the action sadly.

[@armoricain]

It is a sound I like a lot, especially since it reminds me of the French CC 72000 whose engine sound, roaring and whistling at the same time, is absolutely amazing!

[@nineoneoh]

awesome footage

[@NSHorseheadSD70]

The Chicago Line was immaculate. Conrail ran those trains like street cars up there and they wasn't any grass growing under them.

[@Cornelu]

Excellent video!

[@loganbaileysfunwithtrains606]

“Too many pigs not enough horses” is that a Chevrolet quote? Lol great video

[@yankinga]

Three Big Boys, Two Yellowstones and a Cab Forward in a pear tree.

[@worldwiderailfanproduction2841]

They certainly were struggling! Nice video I subbed you btw =)

[@wurlitzer1538]

Fantastic action. Conrail at its finest!

[@B-and-O-Operator-Fairmont]

I watch this frequently, and it just occurred to me the video was taken on Conrail's tenth birthday!

[@mikecapizzi5062]

Love that horse power 👍

[@yankinga]

@grovestreetgman My understanding is that is where most stalls happen because of the resistance created by the curve itself, even though the grade is reduced to 1.45% through the horseshoe, as opposed to 1.75% on either side of it, to compensate for the additional drag.

[@phprofYT]

That moment when you realized that asking for help before you try is better than asking for help after you spin out.

[@hotmercedes]

The Conrail horn is so much better to live close to than the horns NS are using!

[@Engine201]

Awesome catch!

[@redbarnz]

Very clever title for this piece!!!

[@yankinga]

Thank you, I thought so. Unfortunately, I've been hammered a number of times because it isn't technically true (which I already knew. I've forgotten more about railroads than half of these nit-picking clowns will ever know.) Those GP40s had the HP, they just lacked the low speed tractive effort of their big brother SD40-2s. But It's my video and I'll call it whatever the hell I want to call it. 🤣🤣🤣

[@Cyclist0623]

And "Deadman's Curve" was a Jan & Dean song! I'm not sure know about "showing how it's done." TV3M has only 3 engines, while the second successful run is using five. Once TV3M gets the two pushers, that's five, and it does the same run just fine. And who knows about their loads.

[@dheerajrao]

Amazing video :)

[@yankinga]

@ERIELACKU34CH Thanks for your comments. since the Park Service took over the vegetation has gotten out-of-hand and you'd better not even think of going on the outside of the curve. Glad I shot this when I could.

[@EMDFAN1988]

Awesome vid. Those EMDs were on their knees!

[@NSHorseheadSD70]

Nothing quite like the roar of turbocharged EMD 645's.

[@Patriot1776]

1.85% grade, sheesh, even steeper than Sherman Hill in Wyoming. Sure would be great if in the future we get to see the in-restoration 4014 Big Boy take this curve on, if Norfolk Southern and Union Pacific think the publicity would be mutually beneficial.

[@tarmac2001]

Good Question; Some trains are lighter in weight than others and don't need the extra push of locomotives on the end.

[@AppalachiaRRlover]

this is cool, u cant really tell just how much of a grade the horseshoes are really on until u see this train stall lol

[@hobbeekid]

That's Conrail quality right there!!! lol!!!

[@JungleYT]

Cool... Just TWO units on the back, and that's all they needed? Hmmmm I've often wondered if a train got stuck or what it would look like. Sounds sweet though when they throttle down at 2:07 , then back up at 4:17 Nice

[@tejasnite]

That's hard as hell on those unit engines, trying to be fuel friendly and tearing up the Million Dollar units

[@nielspemberton59]

A powerful case for electrification from Jersey City NJ to Conway PA @ 25KV 60HZ !

[@Fitch721]

Is dynamic braking energy proportional to the energy required to get the locomotive over the grade? In other words, let's say that this unit barely made it to the summit... wouldn't there be a lack of dynamic braking energy available to safely get the train down the grade?

[@chuckgilly]

Great video, train stall and rescue all in under 6 minutes

[@38911bytefree]

probably the vid was paused. Those were the VHS times with no so long life batteries nor tapes. If VHS you had only 30 mimutes of recording so kinda you werre the editor on the road deciding what goes in and what is not worth.

[@yankinga]

Time was cut between scenes. it was 40-50 minutes before they got a roll on 'em again.

[@theurbs1961]

the caboose on the end was a nice sight anyway

[@jamurphy8386]

He was still moving forward when he just shut down and said "stalled"! Was the point where the camera was even steeper, and he decided that it wasn't worth it?? He was close! Just one more Geep would have had it. Although those two 45-2s pushing sure had NO problem!! I've never been to Horseshoe Curve - YET. It is on my list!

[@b3j8]

In my mind I still see those big EL SD's slamming by w/2nd New York 100!!

[@BNSFTIM55]

nice sound

[@samhouston4326]

Great explanation. Why would they stress their locos just to make it a few thousand feet and not just wait?

[@yankinga]

Horseshoe Curve is at milepost 242 on Norfolk Southern's Pittsburgh Line. The Altoona, PA Amtrak Station is located at Milepost 236.1

[@rwk360]

Yeah, why are all class 1 road diesels widecabs today? Safety?

[@Silver_Turtle]

Safety mostly; plus a bit more room in the cab.

[@freighttrainsahpassing9790]

those are sure some nice blue engines though !!

[@robertgift]

Thank you, yank. Yes, if they place engines mid train and back, they actually reduce rolling resistance caused by flanges rubbing on the rails. Does this curve have flange lubricators? Thank you.

[@btrev60]

Exactly 10 years to the day into Big Blue!!

[@DASCO2136]

The problem was when the train got to Altoona, there were no helpers available to give it a push. It was told to go as far as it could up the hill and by the time they were on the hill, a helper set would be available to give it a push.

[@Nathan_Breeze]

OK you guys would know the answer to this question. Maybe simple for you, but I still don't know for sure. Why do the loco's face opposite to eachother and backwards when in use? Why are they not all facing forward?

[@voidjavelin23]

easy to move around when switching

[@W5KVV]

Been in the trade for 15 years. Typical management solution "go until you can't go any further, then we'll figure something out." 40's were and still are good strong motors, but they can't do the impossible.

[@railbum]

Helpers on the way @ 3:28. Awsome Vid!!!

[@yankinga]

The 40-2 and 45-2 series of GP and SD locomotives were the last to have unmuffled exhausts. The sound was glorious, IMHO. Unfortunately, today's locomotives are severely muffled and don't emit the sound of power of the older locomotives. You must live by a short line or regional railroad, as many of these older units have been sold off by the major railroads in recent years and the remaining units are not commonly used as road power.

[@catliftresearch]

As the second train came around the first and reached the fellow with the tripod I caught myself waving at the train while he activated the horn. How cool is that?

[@donaldthomas7070]

Same here.

[@bobsilleck6797]

p Quite possibly the greatest train video ever made.