Top 10 Things Publishers Need to STOP Doing!

Join Tom, Sam, and Zee and they discuss the publishing practices that upset them the most. Now with 50% more hate!
00:00 - Introduction
01:43 - Sam’s #10
03:05 - Tom’s #10
04:21 - Zee’s #10
06:43 - Tom’s #9
07:57 - Zee’s #9
09:52 - Sam’s #9
11:10 - Zee’s #8
13:54 - Sam’s #8
15:26 - Tom’s #8
17:32 - Zee’s #7
19:13 - Tom’s #7
21:17 - Sam’s #7
23:15 - Tom’s #6
25:46 - Sam’s #6
27:56 - Zee’s #6
30:33 - Sam’s #5
33:13 - Zee’s #5
33:59 - Tom’s #5
35:44 - Sam’s #4
38:19 - Tom’s #4
41:35 - Zee’s #4
43:16 - Tom’s #3
45:14 - Zee’s #3
48:27 - Sam’s #3
51:38 - Zee’s #2
52:50 - Sam’s #2
54:57 - Tom’s #2
57:23 - Zee’s #1
59:31 - Sam’s #1
01:01:28 - Tom’s #1
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[@Coygon]

My #1: Playtest your rulebooks! They're written by people who know how to play the game. They have to be. But don't JUST have people who know how to play look it over. Give it to a group who doesn't already know the rules. Then DON'T stand over them and answer questions. You won't be able to do that when you start selling your game! Tell them you'll be back in an hour, and they need to write down what they find unclear. Do that several times with different groups, and then fix those issues. I have serveral games that are nigh unplayable (Mistfall and Kitsune come prominently to mind) because the rulebooks were so poorly writen. Maybe they're complete, maybe they're not, but either way they're terribly unclear.

[@ramonosuke]

Agreed. For some reason Baseball Highlights 2045's rulebook was pure garbage to me, and I wound up just selling it off. Vids online seem to clash with what the rule book said and I wound up giving up and trading it off. I hate terrible rulebooks. Cry Havoc is another

[@TheHouseofPanda]

Terraforming Mars and Lords of Hellas haven’t hit my table yet for this very reason. I’ve had LoH for six months and TM for a year and a half.

[@jyhina]

@@TheHouseofPanda played my first game of terraforming mars a couple of weeks ago and we didn't find any problems with the rules. Once we started playing we had to look up a couple as we went but it was all there and it was pretty hard to misinterpret

[@charleslatora5750]

Bought used copy of 1st Ed. Panzer Grenadiers. Almost got through rule 3.0. NOPE. ????? Skipped around rulebook....garbage. Supposedly 4th Ed. Rules fix...(what..all...some...a few) the sins. now I have games I have played, games I haven't gotten to yet, and games that huh???? box is opened look at components n rules and... nope. Nonsense puts you on the bottom of my playlist. Maybe in 2021....

[@taylorlovell3072]

I mostly agree with Zee and Sam's number 9, but boy do I love it when I can fit the expansions in the base box!

[@RayPhay]

I like the fact that Champions of Midgard and Raiders of the North Sea expansions had an updated box to help hold the expansions plus base game. I find this fine if the original game was in a small box. Plus I would rather them do this then give me an over sized box that has barely any components with way to much space for expansions. I may not want the expansions. The FFG LCG games are the exception to the rule for me on this. They need to go back to the bigger original LCG box rather then the small one or provide a bigger box like the Smashup Big Geeky Box.

[@Watcher4187]

One of my future projects is to build new wooden boxes for games like Cosmic Encounter and Blood Rage where it is just impossible to fit all the pieces into the original box.

[@TheLomdr]

Yeah, Brett. I've used 2 different boxes for Elder Sign: A Michael's Photo Box from before I got Omens in Ice to when I got Omens at Sea, to a spare Ticket to Ride Box after I put all of the North American stuff in the Europe box. Maybe a trains sized box would fit everything if FFG announces 2 more expansions for Elder Sign...They're totally going to do more expansions after Sea, aren't they.

[@scottishduck88]

I think it's still better to have an appropriately sized box for the base game then release the expansion in a big enough box to hold the expansion and the base game. If you don't want the expansion, your base game box is still appropriately sized for the game. The one that comes immediately to mind is Pandemic: On The Brink. It has slots/storage for everything from Pandemic and the On The Brink expansion.

[@TheRhetoricGamer]

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game goes too far with making boxes that fit all the expansions. The problem is that the expansion boxes are flimsy and terribly designed. Putting the cards back into the box can actually damage them because the expansion boxes have a lot of wasted space and don't have any inserts to support the cards. However, the main game's box is designed specifically to hold those expansion boxes in a lop-sided way. To make matters worse, it's really annoying and difficult to separate an expansion from the base game. Because of all this, the game box is twice as big as it needs to be. Even a full box with all the expansions has a lot of wasted space.

[@darthduncan4459]

Kickstarter exclusives should simply be timed exclusives before being released a year or so later as optional add ons.

[@ramonosuke]

I wish I could like this comment 1000 times

[@PMMagro]

Some computer games are like that- exclusive for preorders a period off time.

[@jennylang2291]

Exclusive guaranteed for a year...might be made available later if the game is successful enough.

[@Reggie1408]

If I can't buy a game with all it's components because I didn't donate on a Kickstarter 3 years ago then I'm not gonna buy the game at all.

[@SeekerLancer]

Kickstarter exclusives shouldn't be a thing. It targets people's fear of missing out in order to get them to invest in something they normally wouldn't.

[@gabrielnorena]

Stop making inserts that don't fit the components with sleeved cards!!!

[@vankman]

Lords of the Waterdeep

[@sawderf741]

Dominion *cough *cough

[@markusbiewer2756]

This is so annoying, why is it so hard to leave a bit more space so that sleeved cards can fit?

[@LeleJackMusic]

I don't sleeve my cards though and, when the cards fit perfectly and don't slosh around in the box, it's beautiful. Ya can't win🤷🏻‍♂️

[@trunghoang-jummyegg]

if they do that, some people will say "Don't assume we sleeve our cards !!!"

[@jasonmoughon]

As a publisher, iconography (vs. a lot of text) is useful for international purposes. Games that take advantage of iconography only need translated rules. But, the iconography does need to be "simple" and done well. Also, as a publisher, thanks for this episode!

[@FlavioMarceloSousa35]

Publishers need to realize that teachers and educators are a huge market and should develop games for large groups of players (+10), which are so hard to find. I'm a high school teacher and board games were a true blessing, they are a wonderful resource and my students love them.

[@grantofat6438]

10+ players? What other games do you plan on playing while waiting for your turn?

[@aquarius5719]

"The captain is dead" is a great game to promote teamwork. I recommend it for educators but also company managers to play with their teams.

[@aquarius5719]

Problem of large games is length of turns. The good thing is that Photopea is a free Photoshop and you can make components for a home made game of yours. Design your own games. Unlike a software project, board games are cheap to make unless you want fancy high detail miniatures.. The only requirement is art, toake it pretty.

[@jose3653]

GET "the amazing Cthulhu Holmes!" with the KS expansion exclusive +3 to 99 years, 1-20 players, 15 min. business card sized rule book! GET IT NOWWW!! HYPE HYPE HYPE

[@paulbuehler8596]

Sorry if you have been doing this awhile and I haven't noticed, but I really like the clipboards instead of scratch paper and notepads. Small change, but a big difference in aesthetic.

[@romanphoenix999]

I agree.

[@blind_surgeon]

Who gives a shit

[@MToxify]

Expansions that should have been included...same as day one DLC for video games. I do wish both hobbies would stop doing this. And also...just editing...hire someone that has never played the game and have them try to play it with your rulebook!!!

[@g8kpr3000]

Some times games have expansions right away that feels like the designer made a great game, and the publisher said "hmmm, let's cut off 10% of the game here, and make it an expansion.

[@TorIverWilhelmsen]

Would a $60 game that includes an optional expansion sell better than a $40 base game with an optional $20 expansion? What if, say, they waited releasing 7 Wonders until they could put all the contents of Leaders and Cities in it - for a higher total price? How many T.I.M.E. Stories modules should have come in the base game?

[@GTRichardson7]

Also, Tor Iver Wilhelmsen, T.I.M.E. Stories modules are not really expansions, they are games. T.I.M.E. Stories is far more like a video game console (with one in package game) that you then buy more games for. the games can't stand on their own with out the console but each one is a separate game.

[@quasistellar]

Can't agree on T.I.M.E. Stories. The artwork on that game is unbelievable, and each and every card is unique. People might not realize this, but that kind of art work is costly and time consuming. Sure, they could cheap out and use some crappy generic stuff, but then the game would suck. The artwork is part of what makes the game, in that case.

[@g8kpr3000]

I get that, I totally do... but sometimes it feels like a part was severed off a game for no reason, and would not have cost that much more to be in the game. People criticized Scythe for this with their additional 2 faction expansion. Honestly, I have no issue with that due to the components and such, but i've seen some games where the expansion is just some cards, like the 1910 expansion for Ticket To Ride, which feels like I paid to have my game fixed.

[@aldenschoeneberg]

All game play examples in rule books should now say "Zee draws 5 cards to start his turn..."

[@polymossimal]

Hey guys, I appreciate the new layout. I think this is some things that could that could improve the new layout. - Game table instead of black table (Dice tower logo in the middle of all 3) - Backsplash should be redesigned to show either dice tower (full name) or not have it at all. Having just tower distracts. - Sound should be better. A lot of echo. - Need more lighting. You guys are dim. - Next indiegogo campaign, you guys need like a super uber amazing camera. :) Just critical criticism but I do love the show. I know there are lots of changing to do. I cant wait to see this studio continue to blossom. Thanks guys!

[@pernellvaughan8535]

Listening to this anew in the present. When Tom said "no more paper money!" I was prepared to say "But what about Millennium Blades?! It's awesome in that!" Glad to see that he later stated the same thing!

[@andresm377]

Though Tom obviously did not mentioned it when he talked about the number of players, I think it is important to highlight the case of the games advertised as playable solo/solitaire, when in reality is just a way to (in some case literally) learn the rules in order to play it with more people. While I can understand that solo/solitaire rules usually require some adjustments, and are therefore added at the end in a special section, if a publisher lists a game as 1 to X players, I expect the game to be fully playable if I exclusively play it solitaire.

[@Stephen-Fox]

Even if it's the sort of Beat Your High Score that I'm not fond of, I'd definitely agree with that, though I don't mind multihanding a co-op (Ideally, I think, co-ops would list player count and character count - 1-4 players controlling 2-4 characters (Pandemic), 1-4 players controlling 4 (sometimes 3 or 6) characters (Mice and Mystics), 1-8 players controlling 1-8 characters (But you probably only ever want to use 3 or 4 characters unless you have more than 4 players) (Arkham Horror), whatever...)

[@andresm377]

Totally agree. I also don't mind that much the multihanding co-op in games like Zombicide: Black Plague or Death Angel, but don't like the beat your own score that much. The worst offender, however, is still the "learn to play by playing solitaire."

[@Stephen-Fox]

Absolutely on your worst offender - If the solo mode is designed to teach me how to play, don't advertise it as being playable solo. It isn't, you just made a solo tutorial for your multiplayer game, any more than a target practice learn the controls area in an online only, multiplayer only, video game is a single player mode in that. As I said, while I don't like beat your high score, if that's the solo mode, fair enough, it's not a solo mode that I'm going to enjoy, but it is a fully fledged solo mode, and there are people who enjoy that style of solo play, and more power to them.

[@sofreshandcleanca]

Zee is both the funniest and angriest of this trio. Love the video guys!

[@dancondonjones]

sofreshandcleanca it’s weird. I like Tom’s reviews the most, but when you get them together, Zee is by far the most entertaining

[@luiscarlosqg]

Yes, Zee in good!

[@javierper3z]

I like black bordered cards. Yes, because I played Magic at some point,but also, because I like how those black edges age. No game stays new, they all get some wear and tear (or they should, if you don't store them in shrink for posterity) and, for me, it's better if things look nice when they are old. like an old wooden desk, some old bronze antique, black edged cards look veeeeery nice when old... a little worn on the edges, some natural decoloration on parts of those black borders, some nice manipulation tracks. They are part of the card itself, unlike those ugly fingerprintsand grease stains on the white edges of your poker deck. Black bordered cards all the way, for me.

[@blind_surgeon]

Shut up. No one agrees with you.

[@Zoe-yl2is]

I legitimately dislike the aesthetic of white bordered cards UNLESS a game has explicitly factored that into their art design. But most games (like Aeon's End) have darker colors that look super cheap and tacky with white borders (in my personal opinion)

[@mikaelhansson9613]

Stop making inserts that fit only unsleeved cards! I like to sleeve cards in my games, as long as shuffling the cards is required. Some companies are really good at making inserts for sleeved cards, but most are not.

[@Lexicondiablo]

This genre of list actually sums up the biggest current problem with many game published in the last few years. The fixation with top notch art and production quality has pushed the publication of glossy super-produced games with awesome art and fantastic components (yes minis). But many of these games themselves are ill conceived concepts that should have been strangled at birth. Prices have skyrocketed as a result of this sea change in attitude toward 'what is an acceptable finish.' The Dice Tower holy trinity telling the faithful that average artwork is bad, makes it so. Food Chain Magnate is an awesome game with plain artwork. With power comes responsibility guys, artwork is not a top 10 thing that publishers get wrong. Many small publishers cannot afford to pay top dollar for art for a 1000 unit print run. Such a negative attitude is a question of taste anyway and will only close the small guys down.

[@lewiszephyr3596]

Sherlock Cthulhu.....

[@omerhertz]

Already done - and it's even very good - "A Study in Emerald" is based on a Neil Gaiman story where Sherlock Holmes lives in a world where the Old Ones have awakened and rule over humanity

[@riverwanderer]

Omer Hertz you forgot to mention... zombies too! :)

[@LORDJAVI131]

Lewis Zephyr sherlock Risk! turtle Scotland yard bady!!

[@ZentaurFTW]

Mythos Tales

[@stephenlowman3067]

Sherlock vs Godzilla!

[@davidblain900]

To stop box and insert designs issues publishers should all look at Mechs vs Minions. Its by far the best game box I have. Everything fits securely back in the box with no wasted space and the inserts keep it all secure during transport.

[@PeakYourInterest]

Dang it. I was just about to release my series of games. From Shindig Games, the world's best game series ever: 1. Legends of Shindig, 2. Shindig Worlds, 3. Shindigs in Space, 4. Ready Set Shindig, 5. Defend the Shindig, and 6. Zombishindig Each game is for 1-7 people, ages 4-99, and each game plays 15-35 minutes. Easy to learn and hours of fun in every game. Join in in the Kickstarter and get TONS of exclusives, including 4.5 Shindig Madness, the Cthulhu expansion for the world's most amazing racing game. I illustrated everything myself, I wanted a fun and whimsical look. All three (Tom, Zee, and Sam) have once said, "...great..." Oh well, back to the drawing board.

[@slotmaster1570]

Sir, I cannot wait for your first set of errata for your fabulous games. Can we expect plastic inserts, that will hold all but four cards, when they are not shrink-wrapped anymore?

[@DarknessProphet]

1. Exclusives or extremely limited runs are dealbreakers. Whenever I see a games with expansions that you can't get anymore, I pass. 2. Write good rulebooks. Sand down your rulebook so it only contains the rules succinctly and an FAQ section (that covers all scenario's that may come up). Add a picture of the game after it has been setup with a legend next to it. I like fluff, but not when it obscures the rules. Put that stuff in the back or in a separate booklet. 3. Optimise language usage and symbology. If the language or symbols aren't intuitive, I'm not likely to get into your game and I won't introduce my friends to it. 4. Don't save on components. I put cards into sleeves and certain tokens in cases, but I don't want to be forced to handle your game with gloves, tweezers, etc. And don't add stickers on components when you can just print it on there. 5. Stop saving on the insert/storage. When your game is a nightmare to store, I'm never going to touch it after playing it the first time. 6. I pass on strange box sizes/shapes. If the game doesn't fit in my storage, it isn't coming home with me. 7. Learn to market your game correctly. Make sure it is clear what your game is, who it's for, and that it exists, otherwise I won't buy it. 8. False marketing should be illegal. Be accurate in what you advertise. Number of players, playtime, etc. all need to be clear and correct. Don't stretch the playercount and don't measure game length by the time of designers playing the game. 9. Make the game attractive. If the game you're selling looks ugly then I'm less likely to pick it up. This is part of the reason I sold my copy of Terraforming Mars. 10. Reprints. Make sure the game is available, especially when expansions for it are available, and release upgrade packs if a new edition comes out that doesn't revise the entire game (like Arkham Horror 2nd vs. 3rd edition).

[@patrickgoggles7864]

Miniatures. There, I said it. I don't have the time nor the money to get into the miniatures aspect of the hobby, so I have a bunch of games with just grey plastic figures. I would love it if they'd just make really nice standees, like the ones in Dead of Winter, reduce the price of the box, and have miniatures you could buy on the side. Or have the standees on the side. I'd pay a fair amount of additional money for standees for Shadows of Brimstone or Mansions of Madness.

[@Oncus2]

Think it depends on the game. Usually epic dungeon crawl games with nasty monsters work best with miniatures. Standees is too flat to see properly when people are sitting on every side of the table. In Dead of Winter, you are not very attached to survivors nor are zombies complex or threatening enemies. Even with the expansion, the super zombies do nothing until you attack them.

[@micavarga1485]

I totally get your perspective, but it's hard for me to call the standees in Dead of Winter "really nice standees." That said, more and more games are coming out with pre-painted standees (like the new fourth edition of Fury of Dracula.) I'd also keep in mind that you can pay people to paint minis for you, which might be an option if you're willing to spend the money for it as mentioned (and if it's a game that's worth the investment for you.)

[@miken6824]

Great video as always gents! My biggest problem is when publishers build their game boxes without consideration for their cards being sleeved. As another part of that, it would be amazing if games came with sleeves. I like to protect my games and it is frustrating when nothing fits once it is sleeved.

[@futureshockxl]

Here's the top 2 things that are ruining board games. 2) Kickstarter - all the extras and add-ons and exclusives... Then you got anybody and everybody flooding the market. For the one actual good game out of ten that come from kickstarter, it proved to be an overall detriment to board gaming in general. 1) IPs - the local board gaming shop used to be really cool, but now it's hardly distinguishable from the Disney Store. The whole front of the store now is Marvel, Star Wars, and other Disney products. They aren't good games for the most part... but you've heard of them so they get top billing.

[@MartijnVulto]

Some excellent points. Also: stop using colors that are impossible to distinguish from each other! While having red, blue, yellow, and green tokens may be a bit boring, it's infinitely better than having beige, light brown, grey, and off-white tokens.

[@rustedbeetle]

Glad to see the new setup for the videos. Could I recommend moving some lighting to the foreground? The backdrop is lit nicely, but you guys look like you are sitting in a bit of shadow compared to the background so the light balance looks off. Also, a tablecloth may help tamp down the echo generated by the flat table surface. Lots to look forward to in the new location!

[@TheRockyH]

Honestly, the box size one is hard. When you print and ship components, your punch-out sheets might be 5"x10". So you need a box that can accommodate 10" long components which tend to be 11"x9" or so. But once they are punched the'd fit in a 5"x10" box. To be honest, I have been agonizing over this very thing. How do I fit our game into a smaller box. But the longest component is 10" so that is what is setting us up to use a large box and I know that as soon as the pieces are punched out, they'll fit in a smaller one and Zee, Sam, and Tom are going to "Hate Us" (tm)

[@dancondonjones]

Sometimes a box needs to be long and wide, but doesn’t need to be deep as well.

[@sydgilmour3187]

This may be my favorite Top 10 of yours yet, and I've been watching since they were single composite lists of 10! Everyone was so supportive of others selections in this one! :D

[@happyhermit8711]

The lack of phones and apparent distractions behind the camera made my day! Lighting and sound might not have the same feel as the old set but a great video (and I needed it today).

[@thechriscormier]

Such a great fun video!!!!! You guys almost always make me laugh and this video did it several times! Lots of hate going on in this video - but it's a fun hate!

[@Craig_McCarthy]

"The gauntlet has been thrown" -Zee about stickers. Amazing.

[@Oncus2]

1) Reserve one page in the rulebook that lists or even better shows all of the components. 2) Don't make the rulebook index be made based on category. We don't necessary categorize things in the same way. Just stick with the alphabetical order. 3) Don't have 5 books if you can fit it all in less Looking at you Sword and Sorcery.

[@ryanboylan167]

A few contradicting points to make. I asked the question to Sam and Zee a week or two ago about being annoyed with expansions being released right near the time the core game is released, and both of them took a "publishers have to make money approach, no big deal." A different tune is sung here. Also, part of the reason many of us like kickstarter exclusives is because we're rewarded for helping a publisher get their game made. Not all of us get free games delivered to our door, so a few perks for putting up initial funding is a nice reward imo. Thanks for more quality on this channel! Love TDT!

[@annjourney14]

Fantastic Top 10! One of the things I wish publishers would stop doing is assuming that board game designers are also good rule book writers. No. Hire a professional technical writer to do it right. Rule books should be test-read just like the games they teach are play-tested.

[@sylvain3883]

Great Top10, lots of fun to watch, The Flubaka! lol. What "I" hate the most? Bad inserts (Catan, I'm looking at you). It's telling that there is a whole industry based on replacement inserts!

[@PreppinShootinLivin]

Love the new setup and how everyone has the same clipboards, etc. Very nice!

[@cthulwho8197]

PreppinShootinLivin Yep, looks like part of the KS income went on branded stationery. 😁

[@directassault1662]

Just heard there's going to be a Ticket to Ride Cthulhu.

[@quasistellar]

Ooooh, how much is a ticket for riding Cthulhu?

[@jameskrolak]

The cost to ride Cthulhu is only your sanity, my friend. Only your sanity.

[@joshuaschulz3897]

I miss the game table. :-(

[@BrettBrewer]

Tom gestures to the wall of games (that we can't see as it is off camera) during his #7 though, so I think this may be the new Top 10 location

[@TheGiraffehead]

This is their new studio. I agree though, it doesn't feel right yet. Give them some time though.

[@slch2723]

The recording was at the new Dice Tower location. Tom referenced shooting the top Ten in another video or podcast.

[@dakotamike]

I'm actually okay with the table, its the missing "game wall" that bothers me. I'm so used to looking at a wall of games while the guys talk, that a static background just seems a bit bland. It really does make the video less visually appealing to me. I also like spotting when games have moved on Tom's shelves. When I first started board gaming, I assumed they must film at a store! It really blew me away to see all those games in someone's house. Oh well, maybe they'll change things up or maybe I'll get used to it.

[@kens771]

I agree, I miss the game wall

[@laurenpayne5796]

I love this background! It's very clean and professional! That said, Zee's #5/tom's #9 (no picture on box) and then the Sam's #8 (expansions with base game) are two of my biggest pet peeves.

[@MassEffectFan113]

Tom: "I've had publishers tell me before, 'Yeah that game wasn't that great, but we needed a game to publish'. Sounds like AEG.

[@NostraDunwhich]

@Sam: You already cannot buy V-Commandos in game stores in the US because the manufacturing cost is so high that the price would not work in the retail channel. Stuffing both expansions into the game would REALLY increase the cost. I think V-Commandos is at a manageable price point, and if you like the game you can pick up the expansions.

[@WayneHumfleet]

New editions of games that change a few components, but also change card backs so future expansions won't work with your older game. King of Tokyo, cough cough

[@TiaDurrant]

Looking at this video three years after it’s release. I would love to see a recap video to see how you three feel that publishers have responded to this. Have the gotten better? Have they improved over the years? What still needs to be improved upon?

[@gavincramblet3675]

As soon as Tom started griping about paper money, I said to myself, "But what about Milleniu-- oh, good, he mentioned the one exception."

[@BullFrogOnNet]

The best way to fix #3 No Picture of Setup. I think is to put the setup of the game on the inside of the box cover. That I have seen on a lot of the older games I played as a kid.

[@destrio]

This type of video is a fun one to watch since a lot of us can agree with this stuff. When publishers do things that don't jive well with customer experience, it is because they have some sort of competing motivation that overrides good sense. I agree with all of the top 10s here except for the black bordered cards. A lot of games don't use black borders but choose to make the card art, either front or back, to the edge of the card. Often times this looks aesthetically better than having a stark white border especially with certain themes but I do get that it is easier to recognize wear. This is just something customers have to deal with as it is a physical product and not an electronic one and sleeving is the best option so far. I think publishers can do a solid for customers by providing sleeves either in or separately from the game.

[@maxv658]

Boxes that don't fit everything inside after initially opening/punching it is definitely my biggest pet peeve. Fireball Island and Dark Souls are the two biggest offenders I own currently. Neither even come close to closing completely and it drives me friggin' insane.

[@aquarius5719]

Add Conan Monolith edition.

[@DRailer12]

Could you do a list on top 10 things publishers should be doing, or striving to achieve. The box is an obvious one, but maybe msrp? player boards (paper vs cardboard vs plastic)? component quality (releasing a deluxe and a standard version)? inserts (foam vs cardboard vs plastic vs wood)... working with companies to help design these inserts and maybe taking a cut of the profits? watch it played by the game designers or play testers, could make a making of the board game like they do for movies to inspire others / lessons learned / actually showing the care that was put into a game? print and play demos? get feedback during the making of the game by the public (treading carefully) but if the video game industry can provide feedback and patch the game, why can't the community say that you need to stop with the zombie theme little R&D engaging forums.. transparency can be a good thing. storing the components (plastic molds, bags plastic/felt/leather, plastic rigid containers).

[@davidjennings104]

I kinda miss the bookshelf! It made top 10's feel a little more homey. I guess I can get behind the idea of a set though!

[@mgk2020]

There's an inherent contradiction in Tom's and Sam's number one. They claim to know publishers are printing bad games just to have something to print, but constantly talk about how hard it is to turn a profit on games. So, they're saying companies are purposefully losing money on bad games. It's hard to believe publisher's are intentionally losing money just to have something to print.

[@HeadCannonPrime]

Holy Crap, I feel like I know the exact game Sam was talking about for his number 1. I was a playtester for (kickstarter game that shall remain nameless) and I straight up told the publisher, "Look, this game has been done better 2 TIMES before! This game should NOT be made. It is NOT good." And they basically said, "Nah we are going to add useless miniatures to this bad game and sell it for double the price." And they did. And it sold. And it made my heart sad.

[@maingeek]

The thing that I don't like is when there are NO inserts and I just have to put pieces into the box in baggies...they just get tossed around the box when it isn't/shouldn't be necessary.

[@osirisgolad]

Out of all of them, the promo and Kickstarter-related ones are the most frustrating. The exclusives that disappear into the aether after a few months, the expansions which should be part of the base game, etcetera. Thank you for bringing them up. They remind me of everything I've come to hate about the video game industry. It's just not how you treat the people who actually love your product, as opposed to those who just want to be at the lead of every fad.

[@tommymclaughlin-artist]

As an artist...I GREATLY appreciate the comments about bad art, and Tom's #5 - "There are a lot of good artists out there, pay them!" THANK YOU!

[@MystiaBird]

For the big empty boxes thing, they could easily make them like the individual scenarios for the Arkham Horror LCG look (the single deck ones), but bigger. You have the big front picture for shelf exposure, but the actual deck size is way small. They could do the same for big games. Have a big sheet of paper/cardboard as a front face, and behind the actual sized smaller box where you keep the game after opening. Imagine a box the size of Elder Sign, with a sheet of cardboard the size of the Eldritch Horror box in front all wrapped in plastic that you can afterwards get rid of to keep the smaller version. You could probably even keep it as a poster and hang it somewhere if you like it.

[@angelaferris6859]

I have one that is similar. I don't like when a 2 player game is advertised as 2-4 because you can play in partners, just for the sake of extending the player count, but not changing the game at all. It's a 2 player game, not a game where 2 people discuss and make a move than one person could have made. You could really extend ANY game by declaring that. Just imagine: "Carcassonne is 10 players. In groups of two, you draw a tile and decide together where to put it..."

[@Phil_K3n_Sebben]

Love the video, the new studio feels a bit cold though. It needs some warmer tones and lighting or something.

[@johansvanborg5870]

In the sleeve-debate: I sleeve everything that needs to be shuffled alot. I also put tokens that needs shuffeling in coin cases. Then I usually have to build custom inserts since the designer made lot of cool speces for unsleeved stuff and also filled the box with a lot of voids.

[@PowerPandaMods]

"I know a lot about publishing." ~10 Minutes Later~ "I mean, how much does a deck of cards cost?"

[@marke4834]

I'm not crazy about the new setting! Bring the game table and the game shelves in the background back!

[@Jammonstrald]

Excessive obtuse symbology has been the biggest hurdle I've encountered in getting people into games.

[@JayChampagne]

I've got one major gripe against publishers, especially this past year. Please, PLEASE print enough copies of a game. I know it can be hard to anticipate market demand, and it can be scary to risk printing too many copies of a game, but games don't usually spoil. If it was worth publishing at all, you WILL sell all of it eventually. It's worse, though, if you already know a game is well-received and you fail to print enough of it. If you know your game is going to be on every "Top Ten of 2016" list in December, there's going to be demand for it in January. Please don't make me wait until May to get my hands on it.

[@madifinley7018]

Great video. This was one of the funniest top 10 lists you guys have ever done. I had never most of these but then you guys have been gaming for so long. I love the studio, the clipboards look professional, the background is so classically gorgeous. I could do without the slight echo but I imagine this will improve in the future.

[@gheilers]

One of the best inserts, ever: Z-Man's "Saint Petersburg." Separate, snug compartments for each deck of cards...and made to hold them if SLEEVED.

[@Oncus2]

The thing that drives me insane the most is when games are Kickstarter only. After massive sucess they simply never reprint and never go to retail. Why do this? Sell it to other publishers than if you don't want to take the risk.

[@3Xero3]

I fully agreed with pretty much every one of their points. I had a specific game offender that came to mind for each. One of my personal pet peeves which they didn't even come close to mentioning (probably since they obviously don't care about sleeving cards) is for publishers to just please make your cards to one of the standard sizes if they are already close to it. I invest a lot of money into my games and in the past I've had multiple occasions where cards were ruined or made otherwise unplayable by something. Basically I do decide to sleeve most of my games. Most games easily fall into the best categories of fitting Standard or Mini size sleeves, and these are further classified as being American or Euro sizes. Some have slightly strange size cards but you can still find sleeves with only a medium amount of research. The worst are the few games that just have to make their cards a truly unique size. The worst offense so far that I've owned comes from Dungeon Petz. In this game the cards are small and look like they could be one of the Mini sizes... until you try both Mini American and Mini Euro sleeves to find that one is far to small and the other is so big there's a ton of extra room all around the card. Why couldn't they have just made the cards one of already established mini sizes?

[@OldSkoolAnimeFan]

Same #5 is my #1. When I find a game has some stuff I will never get, I never play it. Widower's Wood, and Boss Monster had characters and story elements that are exclusive. My friends and I will check kickstarter to see if we get a complete game, or move into something else.

[@BothGabor]

Props to Mantic for their The Walking Dead Kickstarter. The exclusive sculpts were available for sale in limited quantities after the game was released, and most recently (months later) are now available for Mantic Points (their reward program).

[@thebiggerben1263]

Excellent work guys: Zee RAGE! Give in to your hatred! I can feel the anger flowing through you...

[@beezer524]

One of the best lists I have seen in a while. I was just nodding along with them the whole video. They nailed this list. Nice job guys.

[@triplekgamer9706]

I agree on almost everything except the "black bordered cards". The thing about white bordered cards is that they tend to get yellowish in the long run. Black has its own cons (e.g. finger print magnets) but I like them anyways, besides I'll be sleeving all of them either with white or black borders. I guess it boils down to personal preference. Btw nice top 10 list. Cheers! 🍻

[@CaptainMahone07]

We need the refreshed version of this one sooooo much !!!

[@Alluvian567]

You guys were in prime form today, GREAT top 10. Keep doing these! Or any content with the three of you together, those are by FAR the best videos.

[@garystitely1998]

Adding that 2 player variant is needed for two players would be amazing. Always been my pet peeve. Time is difficult to nail down. I assume the play testers play tons of times and can play a game faster then those who play it for the first time.

[@mrfireball91]

Four Taverns comes to mind for Zee and Sam's 9. Thank you guys, hopefully some publishers will listen this time!

[@tomkirby3281]

I was just rewatching this video, and Sam's #2 suddenly sank in. I got Istanbul and Istanbul:Letters and Seals for Christmas, and I had to, with my big fat clumsy old fingers, put tiny stickers on wooden bits. I agree, manufacturers: STOP IT!

[@bricelory9534]

In regards to card borders, I understand issue with wear, but it is also a question question of graphic design (ironic this brought up right after Tom mentioning graphic design). If a card is having a distinct border that is a different color than the rest of the card, dark colors simply work better. It is about framing. There is a reason black picture frames are the standard generic picture frame: it works universally well as a visual frame. White borders tend to look worse as a distinct border. It isn't even due to a collectible nature. Of course that is a different beast if the art/graphical elements go to the edge of a card, then a white background can look really crisp and clean. I really really dislike the look of, for example, Magic Cards with white borders compared to black ones regardless of value. I would always choose black borders. I used to buy foreign cards partially because they would have black borders when the English edition was white. White will also so smudges, oil, dirt, and general grime from use a lot more clearly than dark borders.

[@noralockley8816]

Yes yes yes! I totally agree. You said it better then I did.

[@JulienGrenier42]

Ashes as great artwork (YMMV) and they don't have black borders.

[@bricelory9534]

Julien Grenier It isn't about the art itself, but about graphic design, or to put it another way, how the art is presented. I don't know the thing you are rederencing so I can't comment on that one in particular. In a lot of games I find cards with hard white borders to look a bit tacky...especially if there aren't significant white elements to the card's design. If the white border is seamlessly part of the background, that can look really crisp, but otherwise it can often be like hanging a photograph In a bright white frame. Sometimes it will look fine, but often it just feels odd. I think if you are getting to the point where you are using cards so much that you are wearing them out you might want to consider sleeving them regardless. The oil from skin makes cards worse than simple scuffs and things I have found, regardless of colors. It's all subjective I know, but I also know Magic made a big deal when their 10th Edition was in black borders (I think it was 10th?) and I don't think I heard ANYONE in that community say they would rather have white borders to not show nicks. My gut reaction is that the white-border lobby is a minority in tastes.

[@davidandersson7642]

I agree that black borders basically always look better from a graphic design standpoint (Call of Cthulhu LCG switched to white borders and man does it alter the feel of the game). I suggest a middle option: marble borders like those old composition notebooks. Dark, but busy enough to hide nicks. Basically the same logic as hotel carpeting.

[@TheLomdr]

Or at the very least, use some good cardstock if you're going for black boarders. You shouldn't be able to mark cards while doing the break in shuffling when you first open a game. I have like 2 more games on my too sleeve pile because of the cards: Citadels and Zeppelin Attack! (latter because it uses white boarders for the starter cards and black boarders for the market cards).

[@Dropdrollos]

One specific one, but by far my number 1: FFG's living card games. Their base game boxes are way too small to store all the cards (I mean: the idea of an LCG is that you buy expansions, right?), the base games barely offer a full gaming experience and the worst thing: you are obliged to buy several base game copies if you want to play the game as it is supposed to be played. I think it is really outrageous FFG exploit their fans so much by trying to get as much money from them as they posibly can, knowing full well a core of fans will always be prepared to pay.

[@terrysalt]

I flat out refused to buy expansions for the Arkham Horror card game because of this (and probably should have returned it to the store). Selling me half a game is unforgivable.

[@shawncameron9514]

I sleeve my games for one reason. Because those tiny cards publishers love to use are impossible for me to shuffle otherwise. Which brings up my suggestions; 1) Stop making those tiny cards. 2)Pick a card size and standardize it!!!!

[@talltalesandothershenaniga8358]

Sam - I just heard they are releasing Memoir 44 Cthulhu, shall I sign you up?

[@coachcase]

Howard Dawson joke, I know, but man...I would kickstart that!

[@allluckyseven]

Even better (or worse, depending on your point of view), Cthulhu Star Wars!

[@JohnLudlow]

How about Cthulhu and Sherlock Holmes?

[@stephenlowman3067]

Stargate Cthulu :)

[@allluckyseven]

John Ludlow A Study in Emerald?

[@skevoid]

Can't believe that this wasn't on any of the lists: Stop releasing expansions where the components don't exactly match the base game! As an example: My Pandemic and Pandemic: On the Brink cards are slightly bent in opposite directions (as a result of how the cards are cut), so if I shuffle the deck of player cards... all of the On the Brink cards automatically bunch together! It's SO annoying! Several other games have cards/tiles that are distinctly different from the back. I don't want to cheat, but having inconsistent components forces me!

[@alam1000malam]

best top 10 ever, greatest contribution to the world of gaming, great job guys..

[@danbuda]

I run a high school game club. Publishers need to stop using sexually exploitative imagery in their games. My club is mostly girls, but regardless of gender, it's embarrassing to have to explain why the Snake Clan in Blood Rage isn't wearing the typical attire necessary for combat.

[@koalabrownie]

+IQ encodoc Yeah or, respect the fact that this comment section is a place for people to voice their complaints about what publishers are doing and that you shouldn't try to tell someone that their complaint is invalid or, more accurately, "absurd".

[@koalabrownie]

​@@bill_the_butcher Everyone can have an opinion but when your opinion includes an attack against another person it stops being okay. Your first reply to the OP accused them of having "feelings of entitlement", your second reply to me calls me a "hypocrite". In just two posts you established that you have a pattern of behaviour where you can't actually debate the opinion without attacking the person behind it.

[@koalabrownie]

​@@bill_the_butcher There's nothing in the original post about feelings of entitlement. That's just some bullshit you invented to fit your narrative.

[@martharohte2001]

I agree. I am so tired of seeing artwork that was targeted towards boys in puberty. Rant incoming. One thing are the impossible proportions, another the half-nakedness and the third the absolute impracticality. It really irks me up when I see the "tribal huntress" with large breasts who wears basically a loincloth and a very thin piece of cloth to cover her nipples. First, you kind of want at least your legs covered, so that you don't get scratches or blisters from maybe poisonous plants you are walking through. Second, breasts need support during physically demanding activities. Especially when they have at least a medium size. And running around in nature is one such activity. Not having that support ****** hurts.

[@nienke7713]

The only reason why I can forgive a bigger box than necessary is when it's obviously intended to reserve space to add an expansion into the box (if they already know they're making an expansion or if there's already an expansion and they're doing a new edition of the game) so that you can actually store it more conveniently than two boxes, but only if the expansions themselves then come into boxes that aren't bigger than necessary (or even better: make the base game box as big as it needs to be for just that, and make the expansion box big enough to fit both the base and the expansion, because someone with only the base game doesn't need the extra space but someone with the expansion will also need to own the base game and thus need the space.

[@TrackerRoo]

I like being able to keep expansions and the base game in a single box. If I could fit all of Arkham Horror in a single box, that'd be great. Or all of Pandemic, all of Gloom. Hell, even a nice hefty chest that I could put all of Legendary Marvel into, with trays so the whole thing is there and organized, that'd be great.

[@StrayFire]

Alea did NOT stop numbering their games! The new card game series comes with numbers.

[@spiderfingers86]

I hate it when games have several cards in different sizes, forcing me to seek out and find several different sized sleeves for them.

[@pastequeman]

you should do top 10 games who didn't have pictures at the back of the game

[@Spudkitty513]

Another frustration is when the box insert for cards doesn't allow a little extra space to hold cards after they have been sleeved.

[@Popcornio]

Lots of inserts these days are just lousy in general.

[@gmilam2]

Great video...This is one of my most favorite top 10s in a while. My gaming life would be so much better if the publishers all took heed of these!

[@TonyHulk]

I hate boxes that are too small WAY WAY WAY more than if they are too big, I hate setting up a game 5 minutes, play game 45 minutes, then spend 1hr trying to get the pieces to fit back in the box. Also things not fitting sleeved cards, or in baggies, or expansions etc.

[@rmcunningham3874]

Super fun list. I like when you guys rant a little bit. It's hilarious!

[@razorboy251]

This is one of the videos where I am in complete agreement with each thing EACH ONE OF YOU have said. My biggest pet peeves in no particular order are: too much air in the box, misleading play time, games that are clearly designed for a certain number of players but that suck at a different number (looking at you Raiders of the North Sea, grrrrrrrrrrr), terribly laid out manuals or manuals that are incomplete and require an errata, poor art, poor iconography (I think Tom lumped it together with the art, but I think it deserves its own special mention), poor choice of colours (I'm colour-blind to certain colours and so are a couple of other people I know - it's one of the reasons I just can't play Great Western Trails well), overly long titles and/or odd spelling, and poor production quality of punch-out components.

[@Phelixc]

I got a game for Christmas that included an instruction manual of how to fit the component back into the box, its more complicated than the actual setup. And heaven forbid you do it wrong, cause there is no space for mistakes... And the box is to big to fit in my kallax shelf, yet if you put a single paper wrong, you won't be able to close the damn box... At least it will provide some heat when I burn the damn thing...

[@yankeehill10]

I recently got a game from Kickstarter and they're definitely guilty of a couple of items on this list. They put amazing artwork on an expansion box that existed just to package three puchboards whose components HAD to go in the base game. Then the stretch goals didn't fit afterwards. If I didn't have the box that the neoprene mat came in there'd be nowhere to put them

[@BGBarbarian]

I hate when they make games that aren't sleever friendly. It comes with an insert that won't fit sleeved cards or the box is so small once you sleeve the game the cards won't fit.

[@anonymousjohndoe897]

Mediocre/Bad Art: Totally agree. Art is a game's foot forward. Make it good. Expansions in the Base Game: This is the board game equivalent of Day 1 DLC. And That's terrible Day 1 Errata: Wow, I keep agreeing with Sam Symbology: ... I feel like the last person on earth who actually likes the symbols on games like Race for the Galaxy. Cthulhu: I love Cthulhu. I own a ton of Cthulhu games, and probably own more Lovecraftian games than any other single game. I gravitate towards the more bizarrely Cthulhu themed games rather than "Investigators versus elder gods" too -- such as Cthulhu Wars or Fate of the Elder Gods where you play as the Old Ones. I'd kill for a Lovecraft game based around his Dreamland stories. Yet I do feel that there's too much "Follow the Leader" of FFG's Arkham Horror, and since I like my Cthulhu theme thick, I feel like a disservice is done by shoehorning it in. Let Cthulhu sleep in his sunken city of R'lyeh -- it says something when Smash Up, whose point is having everything meme-worthy, makes fun of this by calling it "The Obligatory Cthulhu Expansion" Black-bordered cards: As a Magic: the Gathering player, White Borders get dirty faster than Black Borders wear. But maybe it's just WotC's production process. I agree 100% on "Don't assume I'm going to sleeve my cards". There's only one game other than a TCG I've sleeved and that's Mystic Vale, which comes with sleeves and MUST be sleeved to work. But it comes with the freeking sleeves! Stop Lying: ... this really should go without saying and it's sad that it doesn't. As far as timers go, I feel like learning games always take time+50% to time+100%. Oddly, I've only ever seen one game overestimate its play time: Tsuro's box says it takes 15-20 minutes (some editions, I believe, say 30 minutes) and I've rarely had it go over 10. Creative Packages & Ill-fitting boxes: As long as it stacks or fits well on a shelf I'm good with it. So the "Forbidden" series tins, fine. A couple cylinders, OK. Maybe an octogon if it is basically the standard square box with the corner sheared off. But overall, yeah, there are problems. Setup in the rulebook: OK, there are a lot of rulebook quibbles, and I want freeking diagrams. TI3 does this well. Another thing I'd want is, if there's no full setup diagram because it's a card game or something, show a picture of the components so I know which card backs are action cards and which ones are objective cards and which ones are Flubacca cards!

[@dancondonjones]

Anonymous John Doe by the end of my first game fo Race for the Galaxy, I completely understood the iconography. No problem there. Same with 7 Wonders. Small World on the other hand, not a chance. I have to look at the rules every time.

[@Majdi.J]

I 100% agree with Sam on the fact that publishers (mainly on Kickstarter) sell game based on their components (minis) rather than the actual gameplay. I fear this trend will hurt the quality of gameplay in the long run. I know CMON is a great company and Eric Lang is one of the best designers. But Rising Sun raised over 3 million and they didn't even have the rulebook out! And of course us gamers, who allow publishers to do so by backing their games, share an equal part of the blame.

[@GrandElemental]

I really hate standalone expansions. Yeah, I get it, newcomers are always more important than those who bought the first game, from a business perspective. But it's really frustrating that a game comes out with full price and a TON of stuff you never need. I was incredibly frustrated with Thunderston Advance cycle, bazillion base sets and a couple of normal expansions. Also, Dead of Winter: The Long Night is probably the worst: basically there is no need to own them both, as combining them is intentionally made practically impossible. I love expansions, but standalones, the lazy and unneeded ones, are really annoying!

[@Steve-L]

Tomb: Cryptmaster is a stand alone expansion. My 3rd favorite game, and it is easier to get than the original base game.

[@ramonosuke]

@GrandElemental - Agreed. The Long Night is horrible as a standalone. Yeah it has the new modules, but about 33% less characters(2 of which need modules to be of any use, so forget about teaching newcomers if you have 5 people), less crossroads cards etc. Most of the stuff is specifically for the modules(which IMO suck To be honest), making the "stand-alone" part barely there. Simply releasing new characters, events etc on its own for half the price would have been better

[@saiksaikatai594]

i so much agree with you, but for the opposite reason on the same example... i wanted to but dead of winter then the long night was announced...till now i still don't know if i need only the first one, only the second or both and i would like to have both _because both exist and there are hugely different enoug_ but i don't have enought money...so i still haven't buy any DoW yet. And i am thinking that's the real problem with standalone expansion...newcomers who are supposly the target doesn't really know what to buy especially when the standalone espansion can be completly merged wit the base game.

[@Phelixc]

Dead of winter TLN was the first thing I thought of when I saw your comment, it really was a lazy expansion. They could have included new locations, more survivors and made it work for both new players and old players alike. The annoying need to remove cards from the deck every time you want to play with both games together and all the other fidgety stuff to make it ready to play moved DOW from one of my most played to barely played over night. I did however enjoy the upgraded material for the locations. Still, there is very little added value with the expansion for people who had the original...

[@Spudkitty513]

You guys really knocked this Top 10 out of the park. I've experience every one of the pet peeves you mention. I would like to add one more ... stop making cheap, flimsy, must-be-assembled game components which fall apart during gameplay. Here's an example ... the Potion Explosion marble dispenser. Arghhhhhhhh.