Top Hunting Packs: Kifaru vs. Exo Mtn Gear vs. Stone Glacier (Part 2/2)

[@rsfrick1]

Awesome job samong!!! One heck of a review!!! I know you put hours and hours of testing in all of these packs! You the man bro!

[@SamongOutdoors]

After chatting with Mark, we've decided to give away the Exo K3 4800 in this review. I will update this comment with giveaway entry details as soon as possible! Thanks for watching! Edit (Jan 20): The giveaway is live for entry! Click the link in this comment or in the description to get entered! Instructions are posted with the link! Edit (Feb 22): natejrhoades@ is the winner of the giveaway. Thanks for all of those who entered!

[@mosswork1849]

Thank you sir.

[@Stuntman3576]

Ayy let's go!!

[@countryrhoades6883]

You the man!

[@brandongriffith3392]

how do we enter?

[@SamongOutdoors]

@@brandongriffith3392 Entry will be open around January 28 and directions will be updated.

[@patrickbruske5488]

Great job on this video series! After ordering and comparing to the KUIU, I decided to go Kifaru and have been doing 80lb rucking training since November. I have not experienced the pain you described. Solid pack. No complaints.

[@SamongOutdoors]

The Kifaru is solid pack. Even though I had that issue, I can easily see the true potential of the Kifaru!

[@isaacsimmons6220]

I love how you answer the question first then dive in all the way. Very thorough on both videos and love the way your clearly not bias at all. Do more review videos on all types of gear please. Honest reviews are hard to find.

[@michaelbertolino1913]

This was awesome. Great review. Even though I just purchased my EXO 4800 a week ago, it was still good to see the difference between the three actual packs I was also looking at. Thank you.

[@RicardoSanchez-xy5kp]

Thank you for your content on the pack! Your vids were the reason I picked the pack I did. I went with the EXO and couldn't be more happy with my decision! I hunt out west in AZ and the easy access water sleeve and the easy access shelf set up was the information that set me in the direction of EXO. Also simplicity matters to me as well, I think more pockets make me feel like I needed to put stuff in them, I tend to over pack! I packed out a nice big body mature coues buck in the EXO and it made that pack out really nice! I was sold after the completion of the packout! I was able to pack out my entire buck in one load as well as my 4 days gear without any issues. I also love the side sleeves for easy access to my Swarovski 95 STX spotter that fit perfect in the side sleeves. The ability to stow my rifle on the other side in the opposite sleeve was also $$$, perfect for balancing the load layout.

[@Eric-gi9kg]

An OUTSTANDING VIDEO It's nice to see someone Actually give an Honest review on gear. Thanks for All the time and effort that you put into it. Maybe some day we can hunt together

[@jamesedwards6269]

Two bulls down on the same day. Heck yeah. Great video, I have a K3 4800 and have had the same slippage when packing out 3 bears and 3 bucks. Exo should thank you because I bough the new lumbar pad foam after watching this video. I’m excited to try it with the new pad when it comes in.

[@dbraz5]

The fact that the hip pain improved with each pack-out makes it seem more like a musculoskeletal issue (possibly stemming from abductor weakness) than the fitment of the Kifaru, especially when it felt comfortable when stationary and walking on level ground. I'm not saying definitively, but it's possible you could've had a similar issue with the Exo or SG pack if you'd used them around the same time. Just offering another possible explanation. Thanks for taking time to make this 2-part review because it's been helpful for me before buying my first hunting pack system.

[@m14hh5]

I’m hoping I like my kifaru I ordered and that it fits me. I think I will like the bag (hellbender) I picked out. A smaller internal storage but I am pretty sure I’ll be able to fit a 40/50L dry bag between it and the frame which will provide me more than enough room and at the same time it will make for a good day hunt bag.

[@Stevenmtha]

Thanks so much for putting in all the work in these reviews! Question: What’s your height/body weight? And which belt size did you use for the SG XCurve?

[@SamongOutdoors]

I'm 5'10" and 150lbs. I went with the Medium belt on the SG.

[@channelnamehere4065]

@29:00 - I too, experience slippage using mine hauling heavy loads. I will try their lumbar if that helps. Thanks for your awesome work!

[@Bozemancurtis]

Excited to hear about the Mystery Ranch. I actually live in Bozeman so we have Kenetrek, Mystery Ranch, Stone Glacier all based here in town.

[@TheLintond]

Great review! I have been using a Kifaru for 9 years, but have experienced the same hip pain that you described. So I decided to do my own personal "review". Borrowed a K3 & bought the SG xcurve. After giving them some side by side weighted hikes I think the SG is going to be my personal winner. Packs are like boots, they fit each person differently.

[@dthughes4]

Very impressive and thorough review. Non biased and honest. I have a Kuiu pro 3200 and a Kifaru 22 mag. The kifaru is my go to. Great job!

[@brokenheart_hunter]

Thanks so much mate for putting these vids together. In Australia we have very limited access to these great products so it can be a Russian roulette to buy something due to the cost of postage if you need to return. Really appreciate your honesty and effort.

[@roganmatthews6939]

Hey man Just wanted to say thank you for the content and the amount of effort that you put in to making this vidoe and the part 1 to this. I seen and herd what i needed to and thank you for steering me in the right direction

[@ronland1821]

Been waiting for this. Great video. I believe they are all great packs. It’s just like boots they all fit people different. Need to try them on to see what fits right and what doesn’t. You are very good at explaining things 👊

[@SamongOutdoors]

They're all solid packs! It really is just finding the right pack for you!

[@jasoncox3402]

First time I have seen your pack video's, parts 1 and 2. VERY WELL DONE!!! Thank you, that took some time and effort. I did a review on the Cabela's multi day pack a few years ago (very different class of pack). I have been looking hard at the EXO and the Stone Glacier packs. I live in Idaho and in the Boise area, so I am leaning to the EXO, and this confirmed that choice. Plus it comes in First Lite pattern, if your into that type of thing. Very well done. And yes, 2021 was a hot one in Idaho, thinking this 2022 season will be cooler. Good luck this year.

[@dubjspecialk]

Man, thank you for this review. I appreciate the time and detail you took. The b-roll shots, everything you covered, very informative. (I still have no idea what to choose, but that ain't your fault, haha.)

[@wyomtnhippie]

I love my Kifaru Stryker XL. Haven’t had the hip belt issue you experienced at all. But I love my Stone 5900 too!

[@SamongOutdoors]

Both make quality packs!

[@seannmumford6071]

This is a good review. Do you know if the replacement lumbar pad Exo sent you is the stock pad that is used in the K4?

[@Elksniffer1]

I wasn't sure I was going to be able to sit and watch the whole video at once. But I did. You did a great job. On topic, had personal experiences to go with each bag and didn't just rattle off a bunch of specs. Great video Samong.

[@danno0808]

Stone glacier is what I use and never had any issues. Awesome backpack!

[@bradrenfrew2749]

Just bought the stone glacier, this helped me feel good about that expensive purchase. I have been seeing and hearing a bunch of guides here in Alaska talk nothing but great things about it so I took the plunge

[@jayonez137]

I’ve been using my Dana Design (Bozeman made) Terraplane Since 1995. But I recently upgraded to the Kifaru Stryker XL. Zero complaints. Did not experience and of the pain you have had.

[@UnrealEngineHunter]

Holy heck man...that was by far the BEST gosh dang review I have ever had the privilege to witness. Good god sir, thank you for helping me make my decision. I am glad I randomly decided to click on your video.

[@SamongOutdoors]

Glad it was helpful man!

[@toddshumaker2715]

Hey Samong, great video, been waiting for part2! I, too, experienced the same issues with my Kifaru. I worked with Kifaru to make some adjustments, but I could never get the issue to really go away completely. I even bought a smaller waist belt, but still no luck. I am hoping to pick up the EXO this year and give it a try as well! I started my backcountry endeavors with a Mystery Ranch Beartooth 80 and I actually really enjoyed that pack! Thanks again for making this investment in these packs, they are not cheap as you noted! Here's to happy hunting!

[@SamongOutdoors]

Thanks, Todd! I wanted my Kifaru to work out so bad, but I just never could, unfortunately. I just concluded that my body just didn't mesh well with the suspension (or I'm doing something wrong). I just bought the Mystery Ranch Beartooth 80 and took it out on an overnight camping trip yesterday. It's a decent pack, but I'm already experiencing some issues with fit. I think I just need to play around with it a little bit more first. The Exo is definitely a solid choice!

[@toddshumaker2715]

@@SamongOutdoors Sounds good, hope you have success in 2022. I am selling my Kifaru, so if you know of anyone in need of a great pack, send them my way. :)

[@christopheroleary2512]

Sounds like the hip issues are from a beli being a little to high up… or, could be an issue with pressure between your nerve cluster between the lumbar spine and the hip/sacroilliac

[@jefferystensland1304]

much congrats on a very successful season! just picked up the EXO 4800, going to have to check the lumbar pad. Hope you have another great season and thanks for the detailed review of these packs,

[@JohnWeik]

Great video brother and very properly done! Nobody could possibly complain about this video including the pack companies so you did your job perfectly! Love my XO 3500 and it has definitely carried more than it should have many times! Even going in for a two-week camp I still found it completely sufficient. I never did have that slippage issue though but I like the idea of the stiffer lumbar pad so I guess I'll ask him for that!!!💪👍🤛🤛🤛

[@SamongOutdoors]

Thanks, John. I never had any issues with my K2 3500! That pack is solid! I only had the slipping issue with the K3 frame. But if you need help with the 3500, they will take care of you no doubt.

[@Mitch.Engel84]

@@SamongOutdoors does this mean you preferred the K2 over the K3 frame?

[@jacobhollis8647]

Been waiting for this!! Thanks man for the awesome review!

[@jayonez137]

You should be Loosening up your hip belt some on inclines. That will prevent the pinching you experienced. On downhill slope’s tighten up your hip belt and do the opposite on inclines

[@Just_Samson]

I’ve had three Kifaru bags, I have two Exo bags, the stone will be next. Thanks for the vid.

[@Rakkadeedoo]

Hey man, what's your height and weight? I'm just about finished the Kifaru segment. You seem similar in frame to me. Curious about this hip strap issue.

[@jacketling3409]

Great video. I have the Exo and love it, but did experience some slippage (either that or i didn't have the waist strap tight enough) during a heavy packout. I will be contacting them about the thicker lumbar pad. Thanks!

[@Outdawrzman]

Can you get your hands on the Rokman system ? I want to purchase it but I haven’t came across any real life reviews

[@loganmiller2371]

What an excellent video I have tried many many packs over the years and have finally felt satisfied and very happy with my exo pack which I’m on my fifth year of use . Great video and honest

[@SamongOutdoors]

My EXO K2 3500 is still one of my favorite packs of all time!

[@paulkysar6207]

After buying the exo K2 3500 several years ago, elk, mule deer, black tail deer and bear have all had the pleasure of a comfortable ride out of the woods. I may give my 14 year old some my k2 and buy a new key for myself.

[@Bryan-rj8eq]

Well done! Really enjoyed the in-depth video documented info.

[@leeannamaiyang5495]

Your videos are so informational. I appreciate your hard work.

[@natespnwadventures]

Ordered me an Exo K3 1800 yesterday. Can't wait to put it through the paces

[@Gabriel-Akaisha]

Hey sir i own 3 kifaru packs now. First time i used my 99 liter kifaru i had that pain u did. I had to really shorten my shoulder straps on the frame and raise my hip belt. Maybe the belt is just too big and wide for ur body. But i was in soo much pain. I had to just drop my whole pack i cudnt take one more step.

[@piche090391]

love the honest opinion!! I own an Exo and I love it, however I have an issue where the frame hits my head, it drives me crazy, but thats where the pack fits me perfect. Now I'm looking to get a pack that won't ride as high as my Exo.

[@danr4032]

Can you interchange the lids between brands? Have you looked at the stone glacier water lids?

[@ontariobushcraft536]

Huge fan of the wood panel basement. LOL

[@joechavez6447]

Thanks for all the info. You are a top notch guy. Good luck on future incounters.

[@jasonerickson1033]

Excellent excellent job on this review you did a amazing job explaining perfectly greatly appreciate your hard work and effort on this keep hunting and keep filling your fridge

[@mthunter22]

I really like my kuiu 5200 pro . I have tried the exo and the Stone glacier but prefer the kuiu so far. I am wanting to try a kifaru but they are almost double the price of the kuiu.

[@801tb]

What made you like the kuiu the best?

[@mthunter22]

@@801tb the main deciding factor was comfort when heavily loaded. I also really prefer having more pocket options than the stone glacier. Also the price of course made it easier to get into one to begin with. The stone glacier and exo were both owned by friends. And one got rid of the exo and went stone glacier after trying kuiu and the other still has the stone glacier. Probably cant go wrong with any of them. Best advice is to try and find one to try out. Make sure you can store stuff in a way you can get to the stuff you want and organize in a way you like . And i feel most importantly throw a excessive load in it and try hiking for a while.

[@baileys6346]

Great videos. Since the K4 eliminated your slipping issue, would you say that that it surpasses the Stone Glacier? Or is Stone Glacier still your top pick?

[@jamesmooney5348]

Great review. Thanks

[@allenkostner7056]

The issue you had with Kifaru is nerve pain due to construction of blood flor to the hip. I had the same issue in Iraq carrying a drop holster. Hurts. Glad I’m not the only one.

[@thegiantswordworkout]

SIR. Can you do a review on the Barney's Yukon with the Frieghter frame. It's 11,000 cu in. It's said to be the best pack in the world for carrying heavy weight. Love to see a 150 pound sandbag comparison for carry. Reach out to Barney's see if they'll hook you up with the pack & frame.

[@adamsz5759]

Great review! Great video, thanks for sharing this information 🙏

[@dillon9147]

Awesome review! Thanks for putting in all the work.

[@alvaroaguera5969]

After the lumber pad on the exo how would you rate it and does it still slip under heavy load and would you trust it for a black bear packout?

[@RMM--uv7uk]

The Exo/K3 also has different size Hip Belts you can choose from. I think all of your Issues are due to your smaller size. This is great information. Cause my wife is super small. So if she has any issues I know what to do. We got the K3 for me already. Next year she will be getting the K3-1800

[@AADmrstangerbanger]

Kuiu is my go-to pack. They are tuff and light and work awesome and super comfy but I'm sure they are all awesome.

[@SamongOutdoors]

I will be trying a Kuiu pack eventually.

[@jamesmarsee3297]

Are the Kifaru packs more durable than the badlands packs? I had a Badlands backpack rip buy the handle on me.TIA

[@travisnabbefeld5974]

How tall are you/What is your torso length? Did you notice any big differences in restriction of head movement between the Stone Glacier and Exo? Debating between the K3 4800 and Sky 5900 myself

[@wardons]

Thanks for the comparisons! I am curious how the 500D Cordura performed in the rain. I'm down here in Oregon and a good chunk of my time hunting is in the rain (as you are no doubt familiar with). I saw one of your hunts and noticed it was raining while you were wearing the Kifaru. Trying to decide between the Kifaru and a waterproof Seek Outside pack.

[@nolan2514]

I have a kifaru. Bought it this year and absolutely love it I went with the muskeg 2800 on the tactical frame the muskeg line is there so called water proof bag. I hunt oregon and Idaho the only time, the inside got wet was when the ice on the out side thawed and soaked in overnight. But during the days it snowed and rained while I was walking the inside did not get wet. I do believe there’s a video of Aaron Snyder talking about how waterproof it is.

[@SamongOutdoors]

The 500D is pretty impressive for not being "waterproof." I don't have any scientific data, but I have noticed it takes quite of bit of exposure to rain before it will even start soaking through.

[@Thetinebroken]

Hello I live in Arizona and I am new to your channel probably one of your newest subs I watched both videos and I came away with you wanted the kifaru to be your choice because of whatever reason maybe even because it was your first purchase? Or concerns for the kifaru mob...anyways I am new to kifaru and there description of their belt is cupped and contour which makes me wonder about the super heavy loads. Btw most people should not have more than 85 pounds for any length of time your a beast for not a giant guy. My question is if your bag was never going to haul more than an elk quarter etc in weight would you have a problem picking if weight of a trip would never exceed 70 pounds? Did you say their belt was your favorite until tipping point of load pack out? FWIW I just bought a kifaru bag only to put on a Bullpacs frame I have had for 20 years. I am modifying the frame to accept the Kifaru I will someday by a new pack for my teenage son when he stops growing it will be one of the SG or EXO probably Thanks for your content really like your style

[@Thetinebroken]

Also let me know if you want to try AZ it my love SW Colorado I can tell you where to go

[@relentlessadv9521]

Really appreciate your content!

[@SoloDogmanApalach850]

How do you feel about the longevity of the velcro of the Exo

[@shuswapoutdoors]

Great review on the packs! Your too kind too. Your issues with the fit on the Kifaru is a major deal breaker! Go for you for sticking it out and trying to Make it work. Most guys would have tossed it out after the first trip.

[@Rickityrektson]

Great video and God bless you! Could you please state/restate your height inn order to get a clearer idea? Thank you!

[@johnkirby2832]

Really good review! Much appreciated

[@blazingnate2]

Any idea if Exo has made this change to the lumbar pad on all packs after this feedback or is it more of a greasing the squeaking wheels?

[@BeserkBomb]

Very informative and detailed review, nicely done.

[@Wickedjoker525]

That new lumbar pad that was sent to you by Exo. Is that something available on their website or was that something just for this review?

[@SamongOutdoors]

It's not on the website, but just reach out to customer service and they will take care of you.

[@Wickedjoker525]

Awesome thank. Great review.

[@paparomesoutdoors711]

Awesome video great second part also

[@keith8363]

Somong I was wondering what rifle sling you us.

[@thistledewoutdoors3331]

Samong, on the Kifaru I noticed that the hip belt was cinched together nearly completely in this video..... Is it possible that your waist belt is too big & it's not resting in the correct position ??? Just an observation

[@SamongOutdoors]

I'm not sure about that honestly. I have the belt size according to their website which is size small (31"-34") . I have a 32" waist so the belt should be the appropriate size for me.

[@thistledewoutdoors3331]

@@SamongOutdoors Just an observation.. I know I had a heck of a time with my belt fitment for my Mystery ranch Beartooth 80 because then I was 40# heavier and my belt was too small.... My buddy ended up buying it from me because it fit him perfect but, I remember M.R going into detail about what if a belt is too small or too big & how it won't transfer the weight as efficiently..... Ya just never know, but anyways - keep up with vids !!!

[@willdea2750]

Nice review for a few of the top tier packs, but I would like to see a fair review of the Seek Outside of comparable size.

[@ETNEVOS23]

Couldn’t agree more on Exo’s customer service. Grade A, first rate customer service.

[@gone4days956]

great video Samong. Really good job. Subbed!

[@mthunter22]

Great video and appreciate your honest assessment!

[@PNWild]

Awesome In depth video Sy!

[@americansafarico]

Fantastic review. Love your approach. You earned a new subscriber. One question---besides the pack slippage, was there anything about the Stone Glacier that put it over the Exo for you? Larger capacity? Other features?

[@SamongOutdoors]

Yeah, here's some things that I really liked about the Stone Glacier that the Exo didn't have or that was better than the Exo: • SG's Built-in loadshelf • X-pac material • SG's accessories like the camp pocket These are the main things that stood out about the Stone Glacier for me. Everything else was head-to-head in terms of performance and functionality.

[@Gaffneydaniel92]

@@SamongOutdoors I would have to agree. Owning both also, your points were spot on. One thing I like about the Exo is how fast you can get the bag off compared to the glacier. But at the same time, I prefer the load shelf design of the glacier. After having the side pockets and the bladder pocket, I don’t know how I survived without them 😅 I haven’t experienced the slippage, but I can say I’ve had some with my glacier. I definitely like how exo incorporated the pull tabs on the belt to loosen it. I hate that about my Exo after cinching the belt down real tight. I enjoyed these videos and though I didn’t think I’d watch the full lengths, I found I was so in to it that I had to.

[@enjoytheoutdoors101]

Excellent Reviews!!!

[@jvollbach]

Awesome review! I’d love to know what you think about seek outsides new detachable packs with ultra fabrics like the Lanner 5400.

[@SamongOutdoors]

Thanks, Justin! Yes, I've been following the new Seek Outside packs since their release. The Goshawk 4800 is on the list.

[@windygorge1]

what about eberlestock??

[@ETNEVOS23]

Exo is what I have used for last 4 years, unbelievable pack, they have thought of literally everything!

[@SamongOutdoors]

Exo Mtn Gear packs are definitely top tier. Love my K2 3500!

[@mthunter22]

Also do you know your final price on each?

[@hisdesciples]

How’s the mystery ranch in your perspective so far? Compared to the others.

[@SamongOutdoors]

The MR compared to these 3 would be last place overall, but that's an overgeneralization of the MR.

[@hisdesciples]

@@SamongOutdoors thanks for always getting back to us and answering questions. What are your thoughts on the kuiu pro line? Where would they line up for you compared to these?

[@SamongOutdoors]

@@hisdesciples I haven't had any personal use with the Kuiu Pro line so I can't say. The Pro 6000 is my next pack to purchase. The Mystery Ranch Beartooth 80, Kuiu Pro 6000, and Seek Outside will be my next pack project for sub $600 packs.

[@hisdesciples]

@@SamongOutdoors hop to it Samong! The people want more content lol jk. I appreciate your content. I’ve been watching your stuff for a while now. Glad I didn’t get that badlands pack you had a while back though 😂

[@chriscolwell2691]

Great review....I am one of those who absolutely hate spending that type of money on a pack....lol. Crazy stuff but a game changer I am sure when you need a quality pack!

[@SamongOutdoors]

It's a lot of pennies to drop, but when I'm dying on the mountain with heavy loads... the packs all of sudden don't seem that expensive lol.

[@philiplucky7170]

I would prefer like break down of all 3 from your perspective

[@ronthibeau2862]

Which bag could you put a large whitetail in when your alone in the bush

[@thistledewoutdoors3331]

If you're not wanting to spend $500+,,, the Cabela's multi day 4000 will get your whitetail Home for $220... It has all the needed features (water bladder/rifle or bow sling & carrier straps/side pockets for Spotter or poles/detachable bag for meat shelf capabilities) & it's fairly quiet for a big pack..... I used mine for deer & I bring it with me for elk too.... My other extra packs are Alps outdoorz Commander & Cabela's prestige bare framed packs for straight meat hauling when someone else gets an elk

[@SamongOutdoors]

All of these packs have the ability to haul meat inbetween the bag and the frame so they would be the same. To put the meat in the bag itself, the bigger the bag the better. All three packs will handle your whitetail deer no problem if you don't have too much gear already in the pack.

[@tylerrasmussen798]

Been waiting for this 😍

[@inspirednorthwest]

The Exo Pack in the review, what is the torso size? Per Exo website there are 2 options "short" or "tall" I am about your height so I want to just get little better perspective.

[@SamongOutdoors]

It's the short frame.

[@curtisgore1611]

Great video! I can see I need to be hunting with you!

[@davidgendron1953]

Good videos!! Are the XO now come with that stiffer lumbar pad? I hope so cause I think it will be my next hunting pack!!

[@SamongOutdoors]

I don't know if they plan to sell it on the website, but reach out to customer service and they will get you taken care of.

[@davidgendron1953]

@@SamongOutdoors thanks for the reply!!

[@curtisgore1611]

What was the total empty weight of each pack

[@raptordc5]

Found your videos at a perfect time. Excellent video! Think I'm going kifaru. Just not sure if I want 44mag or 357 mag.

[@SamongOutdoors]

Kifaru is a great choice. Aside from the difference of bag size between the 44 mag and 357 mag, the main difference is that the 357 cannot break the bag away from the frame while the 44 mag can. I have no experience with the 357, but it seems like a solid choice if you don't care about the load shelf.

[@joek5800]

So the one you used the least is your favorite?! Great review man really appreciate all the time you put into this

[@SamongOutdoors]

Ironically, yes lol. I used it the least because I had to spend more time trying to fix the issues with the other packs which resulted in less time with the pack that didn't have any issues.

[@inspirednorthwest]

Great Review. I think I am gonna go for the EXO

[@SamongOutdoors]

The Exo is an excellent choice!

[@thelegend6145]

Great Job on this review brother.

[@houndtribeent9760]

Awesome review samong! What do you think about badlands gear? Do you own any of the packs? If not you should check them out, love the quality and their lifetime warranty is awesome!

[@SamongOutdoors]

Thanks. I used Badlands Packs in 2016 and 2017, and some of their other gear from 2016-2020. They make great products at their price point, and do have a great warranty. But when I compare the overall packs to the Stone Glacier, Exo Mtn Gear, and Kifaru, the Badlands doesn't stack up against them in my experience. Granted, I have not used any of the new Badlands packs that they have released in the more recent years so it could be different. I've owned and still have too many Badlands products to count lol.

[@78cobra]

70 pounds... thank you your the only one putting a real load out in the packs!

[@sound-flies]

Pain would be a major factor not sure how you can say it is close if a frame gives you so much pain