Toroidal propeller vs 3D printed EDF

[@nikodembartnik]

Here you can find the files for my EDF: www.printables.com/pl/model/791122-3d-printed-toroidal-edf

[@nixie2462]

No, it was crap and above all, pointless.

[@saifuddinfuzi]

Next is do a comparison between these propellers and a newer research tubercles or bionic propeller.. I tried finding on KZbin no one made a homemade video on it yet..

[@hlavaatch]

The point of toroidal propeller is to decrease/spread the harmful vortices that form at the blade tips. Proper EDF has practically no space between the blade tips and the duct wall so vortices have nowhere to form. So toroidal ducted fan does not make sense

[@PennyEvolus]

and? its a cool experiment.

[@BadPractices]

@@PennyEvolusSome of out here trying to learn dude. I think the commenter did a good job of enlightening some to the practical usage of toroidal props. I agree that it was a cool experiment but I’m also grateful for the comment that can provide additional information.

[@PennyEvolus]

@@BadPractices he was being very rude about it tho and insinuating that the video was a waste of time

[@no.1_trustno1]

​@@PennyEvolushe wasn't being rude, he was pointing out the fact the experiment isn't the most accurate. and give some viewers an idea of what the difference is in between those two propellers

[@trevc63]

​@@PennyEvoluscry about it

[@grahamr56]

Putting the test and results aside for a moment, what really delights me is seeing bright young people like this doing great things with their time and energy. Well done to Nikodem and everyone like him.

[@easycheesy187]

The demos, so far, are radially-fixed pitch. Since you're 3D printing each one, try experimenting with a radially-profiled pitch. You will achieve a better stall response and a wider, linear-region in the thrust-speed, response-curve... as you account for the changes in tangential prop speed, from hub to tip. A good starting point, is to assume decreasing-pitch as radius increases. This allows for the tangentially faster portion of each blade to create less turbulence and efficiently scoop air.

[@ybanrab66]

Interesting tests! One thing to also consider is that an EDF on a vehicle doesn’t normally see incoming air at 0mph. If it’s on an aircraft, it’ll be seeing air at flight speed, so the necessary pitch changes. Racing RC planes often have such aggressive pitch that the props sound terrible and don’t generate much thrust until they get into higher speed air

[@nikodembartnik]

Interesting observation, haven't even thought about that. I am planning to build a small drone based on a single EDF that is kind of similar to a rocket and it is stabilised and controlled with flaps underneath the EDF. BPS space build something like this a while ago and it looks like a complicated and challenging project - a lot you can learn while building that!

[@coderentity2079]

The gap between the shroud and the propeller blade seems to be pretty big. That lowers the performance quite a bit as a vortex can form there. Other than that, good job!👍

[@SET_EV_Guru]

Additionally toroidal tip geometry interferes with the ducts lowering efficiency, Perhaps there is an optimal design for a ducted toroidal propeller

[@manofsan]

@@SET_EV_Guru - why would toroidal geometry interfere with ducts more than regular propeller?

[@adamdelarozza1985]

The Best example i've seen of this new toroidal prop is underwater in propulsion mode. It moves almost twice as far with the same amount of power as the old school prop. It's a game changer and that's is something you'll believe soon.

[@Calicarver]

I think the toroidal shapes you generated were suboptimal and would need further tuning. Better shapes are likely more soft organic shapes. The key benefit of these toroidal propellers as far as I have seen is when they operate at low to medium thrust and the efficiency drops off compared to standar propellers towards the high end of thrust. I am not at all surprised of these results. Neat to see non the less

[@GoatZilla]

The best thing about toroidal props is that they're more structurally viable for 3d printing. That's really about it. The 1 most interesting prop would have beeen... a 2-bladed toroidal prop. You probably could have printed the props in ABS and then easily acetone smoothed them. All your results need to be correlated with power.

[@lj6278]

I loved how you said "propeller" Thanks for the video. Keep it up!

[@handy-capoutdoors4063]

Sir, you are designing stuff and making it at home and doing as close to scientific tests that you can. With the tools you have available on a home budget. This was an awesome video. And you were able to not only display differences between your test samples but were able to highlight the more minute differences. I'd like to see more of your videos. And as a thought on the results and figuring out how to make an improvement. My personal opinion is to start looking at the propeller basics. Surface area and pitch. Followed by weight. The goal to take a commercially available EDF turbine blade, figure out the surface area and pitch to get a baseline volume per revolution of the prop. Then design a terroidal prop with the exact same volume per revolution. And make it lighter than the commercially avaliable prop. Volume per revolution gives you a baseline number that also gives you baseline drag that the electric motor is put under. If rotating mass is identical and volume per revolution is identical then your electric motor efficiency should be close to identical. As in amp draw and rpm should be identical. Eliminating the variables in this way should allow you to get better data on thrust and decibel levels when comparing the 2. I use to build and fly r/c foam board construction aircraft and indoor gymnasium flyers. The electronics were the hardest part to get an efficient and light setup. And then quadcoptors showed up and all the skill in getting something tiny to fly and fly it well turned into who could afford the newest and better quad. Then the government crackdowns on the hobby happened and I didn't pick up a remote until recently.

[@towitowi1]

Cześć Nikodem, coraz ciekawsze a zarazem bardzo profesjonalne tematy poruszasz , tak trzymaj !

[@Li0rE]

Great video as always - but make sure you explain what initialisms/acronyms stand for. I have no idea what EDF is and it is hard to even understand what your video is about without you providing that info.

[@DUKE_of_RAMBLE]

CNC - Computer Numerical Control EDF - Electric Ducted Fan MIT - Massachusetts Institute of Technology (I don't know if he mentioned CNC in the vid or not, but it IS in the description)

[@Poult100]

That's one hell of a pitch you've got there. It's mainly rotating air rather than pushing it. I'd guarantee the thrust would greatly increase with a shallower pitch.

[@jamesbruce1183]

Did you calculate efficiency as grams thrust per Watt? That would be more interesting to me that just pure thrust.

[@robinconnelly6079]

That was really interesting. Now I know that if i want want to reduce noise, toroidal is the way to go

[@MarinusMakesStuff]

I actually believe these are not toroidal props as a toroidal prop has a curved edge along the outside instead of just being slanted sections of multiple tubes arranged around a center point.

[@SenithDR]

Yes

[@jean-francoislaporte64]

From the video, these propellers do not seam to be optimally designed. If they where, you should get much improved performances.

[@PaulDominguez]

I'm a big fan of this video 😂. Looking forward to seeing more

[@lio1234234]

For context 6dB is double the power. 10dB sounds twice as loud

[@alexandre8395]

If you want to increase thrust you have to integrate the propeller in the turbine by changing the design of the turbine. You shouldnt have any gape between the inner side and the propeller, this design decrease air pressure under the propeller. The best is to create a channel to let the propeller spin freely, like being slightly shorter in diameter size than the propeller and making an inner section to integrate the propeller's movement in the inner side of the turbine.

[@expomm]

Great experiment, kudos

[@HappyMathDad]

I really like your videos. You already got really good advice. I look forward to the next video. Good luck!!!

[@ZeroInDaHouse]

Look into the Tubercle effect and the Siemens low noise comb design inspired by owls. Very good projects to 3d print AND combine with the toroidal propeler.

[@ValRC1]

Hey, thanks for the video! Really Interesting tests. Maybe to improve it further you could try reducing the gap between the propeller and the duct to make the duct more effective? One way I can think of doing this would be to print the propeller slightly too large to be able to spin without rubbing, then just let it run slowly until it shaves enough material off of itself to spin freely

[@edgar9651]

In principle I like the idea of such a test. But why outside with extra wind? And how often did you charge that battery? If you didn't charge it again and again then the battery charge will make a big difference. How about doing this indoors with a power supply like you have on your bench?

[@camoman619]

That was my thought… he said so he could test from a distance but he’s next to it the entire time.

[@Soravia]

Use resin printer for smoother details, or use cf pla from Hatchbox etc for hiding layer lines. Also use resin mixed with starch to coat, cure with UV to hide layers

[@bobfree]

The thing that most people don't get is that toroidal propellers are designed to be efficient when there is no sleeve/duct - see use on boat motors. To compare apples to apples, compare the thrust of the conventional and toroidal propellers without a sleeve/duct; a good test would be on quad copter droids.

[@piconano]

I'd love to see the difference on the actual fan. Same diameter, same number of blades. Which one will draw less power from the AC outlet?

[@nikodembartnik]

So let's make it in my next video :)

[@Keiranful]

The thing that gives a toroidal propeller it's advantage is that there's no edge where high and low flow regimes can mix to create eddy currents, which is already minimized for the EDF. An open fan would be a different matter, but that's already been shown...

[@markhall3434]

Looks like the normal with more blades has more thrust, maybe the Toroidal needs more blades? Also what about the toroidal tilt/Pitch factor vs the normal. Would a toroidal with say 8 blades be possible? No idea. You really need a fluid dynamics model (MatLab?) of the toroidal to play with. Very nice work! Are toroidal blades suitable for Jet engines?

[@Avionyx]

The real question is: where can I find that quick fold out workbench???

[@michaelmueller9635]

It's a really interesting test. I think it's a good idea to compare thrust/watt + the decibel level at the same amount of thrust (because if a prop got a lower efficiency, it's not surprising the noise level got lower at same rpm or watt). I wonder about 1 thing, all EDFs seem not to consider by design: The efficiency is close related to the gap between the tips of the propeller and the case of the EDF. The more you scale down, the harder/impossible is getting the tolerances right. So why not reducing the gap between the wing tips and the case? -> Let the inner side of the case be a part of the propeller and rotate and the outer part of the case behing fixed.

[@johannesnel8875]

Somewhat the same idea that I try to say. You have an interesting idea there also. That will get rid of the dangerously small gap. The inlet can probably be just a little smaller than the outside diameter of the blades, or the same, but just in front of it. Maybe that will cause another problem again.

[@chief8388]

Nice. If you were able to test these same designs under speed or in a wind tunnel, you'd have different outcomes... Mabe blow a leaf blower into the intake to see what happens. Some would cavatait more, others less. Some would be more efficient based on inlet speed. Keep testing!

[@SB-qm5wg]

Where did you get that collapsible work bench? It's sweet!

[@MaciejWiercinski]

If you refrain from using domain specific abbreviations it will make your content more accessible to folks not sharing the same lingo / focus.

[@CPSdrone]

A2212 might be the best value BLDC motor ever

[@nikodembartnik]

Indeed! Do you use this motor in your drones too?

[@CPSdrone]

@@nikodembartnik Yep, the new one will have 8 of them :)

[@aterxter3437]

Just a little question : When measuring effective thrust, did you take into account that as the edf's center isn't at the fixing point of the strength gage, as it is further, the lever increases and the measured force doesn't represent the real thrust

[@peters972]

Did you do the same test without the duct? Also be aware of ductless propeller systems including stators near the fan (instead of contra rotating fan). Ty

[@byzmack1334]

You can reduce the noise of the fan by making the spaces between the blades different. Balancing it becomes a challenge but Airbus Helicopters has done it with their fenestrome tail rotors.

[@timothyleach6319]

Yes, repeat without the duct! A ducted fan with the least gap between fan and duct is the most efficient as you can see on large jet planes. Compare toroidal to a standard open propeller.

[@Andrew_Custodes]

the next step is to compare a thrust of all propellers at the similar noise - level!!!!

[@rohitjoshi4341]

I would like to see the results of a hybrid propeller with a combination of the torrential and normal propeller. With the idea of creating a minor vacuum and pressure pockets like we have in jet engines. Moto is to reduce sound while increasing thrust. Good projects for drones and passenger planes.

[@johannesnel8875]

How about trying a standard propeller with a ring on the outside that bind the blades, and prevent the air to escape outside the blade rotation? I'm not English so it is somewhat difficult to put my mind picture in words. It should be clear what I try to say.

[@kennethmui88]

For a fixed thrust value you set, can you vary the propeller radius and measure the full frequency spectrum again? I wonder what size the propellers need to be to have the dB for all frequencies to be less than some set value. Then you could increase the thrust and vary the radius all over again and see the frequency spectrum. Then you can make a 3D plot of thrust vs radius vs dB (max) or dB (average) for the spectrum.

[@manwithnoname3454]

You have committed proper science

[@johnrobertfrench]

Wouldn't the shroud severly hinder the toroidal propeller? The Shroud is a plus only for the regular propellers and putting a toroidal is like adding a second set of plane that will work as an anti blade.The attack angle for the toroidal is going to be slightly different on the tips. Try adding more space between the shroud and the tips of the toroidal blade.

[@MrSummitville]

Severely hinder the toroidal propeller? No!

[@aaryananand7288]

Sanding propellers is, like you said, not really practical. But what you can do is print a part with ABS and give it what is called an Acetone Vapour Bath. That will give it a smooth surface finish...

[@PiDsPagePrototypes]

So far, in ALL the Normal vs Torridal prop videos that I've watched, the Torridal is always quieter, but no one compares the thrust and power used by the normal prop or fan running at reduced throttle that matches the torridal noise level.

[@Athiril]

The toroidal is always less efficient and requires more power to reach the same thrust

[@samsater]

I appreciate your efforts.... Great results ❤

[@nikodembartnik]

Thank you so much!

[@ronstiles2681]

Good start, but there are a bunch of parameters and conditions to get a good comparison, keep up the good work sir:)

[@MrSummitville]

So, what are these parameters and conditions?

[@ronstiles2681]

P s I am just going from my memory , :)

[@ronstiles2681]

Hello I did type in a deasent and proper response with know parameters and such to be helpful but I don't see it not sure what I may have done wrong , but little busy for a bit and to busy to type it out again I suck at typing ,

[@heinleinok1]

I would like to see the same tests but with a lesser gap between the propeller and the cowling. Thank You

[@Gismotronics]

It would be great if you could design a significantly quieter and less harsh noise for a propeller design for drones!

[@ericstites9470]

I think your angle is too aggressive on the toroidal propellers - maybe dial them back to no more than 45⁰ at the tips? Also, if you can increase that angle as you get closer to the prop hub it should move air more efficiently as well - just look for Sharrow boat propellers as an example. Best of luck!

[@gerryk101]

Toroidal propellers should be used to generate more thrust to lift more weight instead of using it as a normal turbine blade for forward movement . Close the back of the motor with the toroidal prop and flip your motor facing downwards .run a test using the same with the turbine prop and you should notice you'll achieve more lift with thé Toroidal prop than your Turbine prop but using equal energy on both . Thus in Evtol , instead of using 8 motors and blades you can reduce the weight by using 4 motors and 4 toroidal props instead of 8 of each . Combined with 2 side mounted turbine prop motors . In theory and provided you are a great pilot and know wind force and flow , you would be able to land the Evtol safely if all motors had to fail with toroidal blades .

[@slesarvodoprovodchik9312]

And if you use a toroidal screw without a casing? What will be the thrust?

[@InspGadgt]

A good idea would be to do a noise test indoors without no prop installed to find out how much of the noise is coming from the motor. I suspect the duct is acting to magnify the motor noise and most of the noise is probably coming from that. But that would be a bit off since the motor won't be under load. Still would be interesting.

[@MrSummitville]

You need a motor to fly. So testing without a motor is nonsense.

[@InspGadgt]

@@MrSummitville I didn't say test it without a motor. I said test it without the prop so it is the motor only.That way you can get an idea of how much noise the prop itself is generating.

[@nickben8668]

Since a normal fan's efficiency is better than the toroidal but produces more noise as a result, wouldn't it be fair to scale the normal fan back so it only pushes the amount of air as the toroidal and then compare the noise?

[@timmyssweet]

Is it possible to set the rpm and, then, test the propeller? Maybe, … use an oversized, high torque motor like grinder. I think the small motors are set to a certain rpm but if your thrust, propeller blade angle, is different, you will get different thrust because the motor will spine at a higher or lower rpm. Ounce, rpm is set, then tweak the design. Otherwise, you will be guessing. I did see a boat test where they tested efficiency of propellers by watts used, but I think efficiency of a motor depends on sizing the perfect propeller for the motors output.

[@RoFiHan]

That thing is NOT a toroidal propeller. Its just a lookalike. If one wont to make a comparison, it would be reasonable to use the right thing. Also there is that argument from @hlavaatch mentioning the problem with the blade tips.

[@stefangaleksandrov]

Toroidal propellers are made for open fans, it doesn't make sense to use them in ducted fans. Toroidal propellers are solving problems like tips vortexes etc. that only exist in open fans, and you have other problems with ducted fans like how to keep gap minimum etc.

[@protator]

Errr .... those aren't toroidal propellers, just some silly angled extrusions. That aside, as others have already pointed out: ducted fans don't have the kind of tip vortices that toroidal props are meant to reduce. Toroidal propellers might be useful for drones, tho. Many models have "ducted" props for safety reasons and with the large gaps between the blades and the duct walls they're often right in the spot where the ducting doesn't add any efficiency but increases noise.

[@bradley3549]

Weird question: What kind of glasses are you wearing (blue rim with metal temples?)

[@nikodembartnik]

Good weird question! Unfortunately, I don't know, these are not some fashion fancy branded glasses, I bought them at the local optician because I liked the design but there is no logo,nor any name on them (which is one of the reasons why I like them)

[@Xayuap]

the idea for using toroidal is to avoid the need of a tunnel

[@thartwig]

why didnt you just do the acetone smoothing? Or whatever chemical they use for evaporative smoothing

[@ryanjosephatienza1201]

Im just curious how it perform in winged aircraft like rc plane, I know it was built for boats and drones but, just how?

[@dennisloobman8013]

First thing I'd suggest would be a resin 3d printer. You'll get much higher resolution, smoother surfaces and stronger parts. FDM is rubbish for anything near engineering tolerances.

[@smitty2222]

I thought the toridal pulls from more flow from outside its area. Try doing the experiment without the enclosure.

[@NiclasHorn]

i think its good you only use 3s, impellers (not propellers for EDF´s) are AMP hungry and you can very easy burn the motor trying different impellers on full throttle. i am also pretty sure the 3d printed impellers was flexing to much to give proper thrust for it´s design. i think you might had a bit lower thrust due to impellers flexing. at peek RPM.

[@saifuddinfuzi]

Next is do a comparison between these propellers and a newer research tubercles or bionic propeller.. I tried finding on KZbin no one made a homemade video on it yet..

[@nps-ddpsavinglives]

I admire your intellect great video...

[@hedleypepper1838]

My guess would be ducted fans are not a good application for toroidal designs as the tip losses are negated by being in the duct

[@williamvaughan9036]

HYPE, what about 103% improvement on boats!

[@hamzasellek894]

The motor you used?

[@orangepillow]

How about check the motor only sound without propeller. You may estimate noise which is generated by propellers. Anyway good jobs!

[@MrSummitville]

You can't fly without a motor. Therefore, you must test with a motor.

[@intellectualiconoclasm3264]

Have you seen anyone fume-smoothing their parts? They get some inpressive finishes. Mostly I've seen styrene filaments fumed with methanol. There have been a few other pairings that I sadly can't remember. But I'm sure a resourceful chap like you will be able to find more info. Have you ever considered adding turbulence to smooth flow? Such as the scalloped leading edges of whale and sea turtle flukes. They actually end up soothing the flow. Or perhaps dimples like on a golf ball. The Myth Busters tested the hypothesis they'd increase fuel efficiency due to better aerodynamic profile, and they did and remarkably so. Some thoughts to churn over. Lastly, nicely done with so many options. Thanks for the entertaining and informative content and effort, Sir.

[@katrielp]

Maybe your toroidal designs are not so close to mobius strip like geometry which is more efficient than standard propellers.

[@wolframzirngibl1147]

Ducted fan design adresses the same issue like the idea of toroidal props. Better "control! of blade tip votices. The toroidal props for drones that appeared to day are all crap in means of doing efficiency better. Often marine props are cited, but they look very different than the ones for drones. If you take a design, meant to optimize free air operation, and it does not because of severe design flaws, what do you expect from such propeller in a duct? Yes, less efficiency.

[@bretthorwood9396]

Maybe you could try one of these Archimedes logarithmic screws that everybody talks about for wind turbines

[@SaddamHusain-qo8cl]

I have a concept design for suction propeller aimed to push the limits of dry thrust, I dont have a 3D printer but I do 3d modeling and designing in rhino for industrial designers. I wish you look at the design and try its thrust.

[@westmassdave7354]

That was a successful test. Well done. $

[@ronstiles2681]

Hello I typed in a comment to help not criticize about proper testing but I don't see it it listed actual things that are part of true constants and such , there are many things that need to be done for actually getting real test results

[@undercrackers56]

What if you curved the blades of the toroidal propellers in the same way that the blades of a jet engine are curved?

[@GearTiger007]

i am more interest with which have more thrust efficiency if use it on plane. hope you make more test and have more info. thank you !

[@insAneTunA]

There is a guy who, believe it or not, tests and compares computer cooling fans. And yes, in that capacity he also tested a ducted toroidal fan. He did a good job with reliable methods for his tests, but the toroidal fan was not that impressive compared to a regular fan.

[@shirleymae30]

I wonder how sharrow props world compare with the others. I think it may increase the thrust, and reduce the sound.

[@faras5426]

So how are you going to change the pitch as needed to optimize performance ?

[@antonwebers8195]

I don't know why so many laymen think they create a toroidal propeller with just some curved loops and they perform better than any other fan blades. You are comparing apples with orange. Is either one of them designed for a specific point (Max thrust, min efficiency, minimum noise etc.)? Only then you can compare them. You can't simply compare a whole category of propeller with just some random designs. This is not science nor engineering, it's just someone playing with a3D printer and a remote and trying to create likes on KZbin 🤦‍♂️

[@ARES_HANTRIO]

I think bro trying to increase or decrease the number of blades in the toroidal propeller also tries to decrease the pitch of the blades ... 😶

[@fkldfdksfklsd]

Suggestion: Wear a full face polycarbonate face mask ... your eyes cannot be replaced.

[@niklar55]

If you look at commercial toroidal propellers, they are much more 'flattened' than those you have constructed. Therefore they are likely to be far more aerodynamic.. .

[@kalasharshad]

Share a link, u hv 100s of video s, I want to see padestal Fan experiment

[@scott.ballard]

Great idea!

[@strattonkilbourn1302]

Please get in contact with integza and get him to put together a thrust measurement setup

[@JohnnyBuxton]

Now try Tubercle effect blades please! :)

[@djmjr77]

Would have been cool to see the bought edf compared to the ones you made..

[@dennisash7221]

I have seen a few guys testing "Toroidal" propellers most with similar results that the toroidal shape does not perform as well however if you have a look at the professionally designed toroidal propellers they are not a simple helix they are shaped in the same way that that a normal blade is shaped there is a clearly designed variable angle of attack and the blades change from inside to outside. This was a key factor in making regular propellers and not surprisingly plays a significant role in Toroidal blades. Please take time to design a proper blade and then test it, otherwise all you are doing is making just another video that is purely entertainment with no real value other than a few smiles.

[@tsclly2377]

you lost the solidarity of the original fan (that could hav been made even better by reducing the gap with it and the tube.. and better stators

[@tuttebelleke]

Shouldn't the input power for each of these tests not be included? The toroidal give less trust, but maybe they demand less power???

[@tomimanty4609]

would be interesting to see the difference in denser liquid than air, like in water what would be the difference in power to trust difference then?

[@wisambunni5785]

Thank you What about rim propellers?