Touchy Subjects

[@ConstantGames]

Good games, like good art, make a statement. I loved Arcanum and Fallout for their statements because it felt natural and organic to the world. The conflicts in Arcanum between the different races and classes felt natural. Wizards near the front of the train suppress the physics in the train engine with potentially catastrophic effects. The abuse of the Ogres and Orcs for manual labor and security jobs felt real and uncomfortable - but it stayed within the scope of a game. For myself, the statements become problematic when it feels forced, arbitrary, and artificial. If the statement is a checkbox, it's a problem. If a game developer can't take the time and effort to make the statement real, then they don't deserve my time and money. Great video Tim. This is why I liked talking with you so much back in the day.

[@karlnord1429]

Amen. I don't mind politics or choices I think are evil, if they are *interesting* and well created. Exploring evil doesn't make you evil.

[@paulie-g]

"like good art, make a statement" That's not a priori true, it's your opinion. Didacticism in art is and always has been a hotly debated question and whole movements, like aestheticism, have been based on its negation, ie "art for the sake of art".

[@karlnord1429]

@@paulie-g That isn't what Tim meant though. "A statement" just means that you let your heart speak. Art analysis is very different from the perspective of the artist making the art. Tim is not making propaganda. Propaganda is when the message trumps the art as the dominant telos.

[@karlnord1429]

To reiterate an intuitive approach to art creation means that you can't really make propaganda.

[@chuckwood3426]

Those things could never be done in a game today however. (Outside niche indigames ) Nowadays we are much more sensitive and politically correct. The only thing that is safe to comment about tend to be abusive corporations.

[@vast634]

Rough checklist: US: dont show boobs, Germany dont show violence, Australia: dont show drugs, China: dont show bones + flesh, France: dont show English text.

[@gavin274]

What are you referring to when you say don’t show English text in video games in France? All I found was discouraging the use of English words like ‘streamer’ or ‘esport’ but not anything related to in-game English text.

[@madjack4407]

One wonders what the limitations are in somewhere like Saudi Arabia

[@DunAO199]

@@gavin274 You clearly haven't met a French person

[@GepardenK]

​@madjack4407 In Saudi Arabia it's don't show women

[@TheGenericCanadian]

France and Quebec: don't show english 😂

[@CBFan5000]

I think a big part of the reason tackling touchy subjects is harder today is that the social media age has destroyed critical thinking and media literacy. Lots of people see bad things in a work of art and assume that means the artist(s) endorse said bad things regardless of the fact those bad things elicit punishment and are clearly painted as very very bad.

[@adammoynihan2589]

My favourite example of a workaround to this is Stellaris which technically includes just about every horrific action you can possibly imagine and let you do it but the game still has a super low age rating because it's entirely text and map based despite the fact you can wipe out planets and whole civilizations at will.

[@jabberw0k812]

One death is a tragedy, a million a statistic. The high level abstractions in 4X games kind of sterilize everything automatically.

[@VieneLea]

Man, you would love Crusader Kings 2. Stuff that happens there is absolutely crazy, but again, it's all text-based

[@kotzpenner]

You can literally take over and enslave planets, process the population into food, sell this food on the market or even make ships out of it. Paradox games are all genocide simulators (except ironically HOI4 that’s set in WW2)

[@VieneLea]

@@kotzpenner HoI4 more than makes up for it with it's playerbase. Remeber that russian streamer who played Russia-vs-Ukraine mod in literal Wagner HQ? They're almost as bad the real-life Victoria 2 players

[@niccolobrioschi3758]

​@@VieneLea eh Ukraine is too nostalgic of the Austrian painter, it's ok

[@dakkaflakkaflame]

When I first played Fallout as a middle school kid I thought I was playing a hero who did the right thing. In one town I identified some truly despicable villains, got into a gunfight with them and blew them away on full-auto. I immediately left for the next town, and when I got there everyone hated me, called me a child killer and treated me like a monster. I was very confused. I backtracked and discovered that in the previous town there was a dead child that I must have hit with a stray bullet. That sold me on Fallout. It was the first game I encountered where actions had consequences and not only did you have the choice to be evil but you could end up being the bad guy even when you were trying to be the hero.

[@ROFLWOOT]

Don't talk to me about touchy subjects, it's a touchy subject.

[@Hjorth87]

The German edition of Half-Life had that funny quirk where all soldiers were replaced with robots. I think it was something about not condoning violence against representatives from the government, but I may recall wrongly

[@Chinothebad]

Could be possible but then again, some games like Contra and Turok replaced human enemies with robots. May be more general "we don't want to condone killing people in a game" but I'm not even from Germany so I could be wrong.

[@kotzpenner]

Same witch C&C Generals. All human units are now cyborgs.

[@bongwaterbaptist]

Germany has never changed.

[@chrissoclone]

@@Chinothebad Germany has changed a lot in that regard though, there's rarely any censorship anymore and the last time I saw a cut edition must've been a decade ago or longer, it was probaly even Fallout NV. I think Wolfenstein New Order had to censor swastikas and other N* symbols, those are still a big no-no but even that has loosend in recent years. Games Like Doom Eternal or other gory games like that are identical to the international version.

[@Hjorth87]

@@Chinothebad i looked it up and I think you are right. They were very much against violence in general not to mention symbols from Germany in the 30s and 40s

[@MojoRisingTV]

Tim regarding your comment on "maybe its time for me to retire, maybe people dont want these things anymore" I disagree, infact theirs probably more people out there, that know about games that would buy the thoughtful games that you've been involved with, obviously. But what i mean, is theirs an IMMENSE amount of saturation, a million games coming out and seldom is there a good one, i'd say the opposite of your conclusion on that point stands instead. Need more people like yourself that are willing to develop such games. imo.

[@Lemmings19]

3:30 that glazed look on your face as you mention how everyone is trying to kill the children hahaha

[@jaxon_hill]

Hey Tim, I'm releasing my game I worked on for 2 years today. For the last year, your videos have been a tremendous source of wisdom and knowledge. Thank you!

[@Dingoman013]

Name?

[@northlanedarko771]

What ia it ill support and play

[@jeremyscungio16]

Nothing is more enjoyable for me than making an evil game world better through my actions

[@thefoxoflaurels3437]

It gives me practice on when to recognize injustice in real life. You get one life; why skip content by being evil?

[@Carnage1138]

Hey Tim, I just wanted to say that I love your videos. Your warmth, optimism, and ability to accept people's differences is a breath of fresh air in a media landscape consumed by hyperpartisanship, outrage content, and cynicism. I feel like I could have a disagreement with you and agree to disagree without it turning into a blood feud like most people these days when you disagree with them.

[@justinemery2194]

“Not my decision! Code code code” that was a true genuine smile at the end of that sentence lol

[@Kerrigan1000]

Tubby hippopotamus that's picking up pineapples.....Tim you gave away one of you original IP ideas!

[@Kerrigan1000]

Tim Cain's Cute Tubby Hippo example quest: "Hello Tubby Hippo, please go to the cave in the south and pick up my pineapple, we at the Upside-down Cake Town do so need that pineapple! upon entering the cave you see that pineapple has Rabies. You now have options: A. Do you pick it up and take it back to town, knowing full well you are endangering the citizens of Upside-Down Cake town to a rabies outbreak? B. Since you are a hippo you know you have a high CON score with natural disease resistance. Do you eat the rabies piece of pineapple, saving the town but putting your own health at risk? Golly gee, whatever will Tubby the Happy Hippo do??? :D

[@JimmyMon666]

Only if they could use jet to go faster.

[@MatsJPB]

My brother once told me when he couldn't get the orignal version of a movie, he had to watch version from two different countries to get the "whole movie", cause one country edited out most of the sex and nudity, the other country edited out most of the violence. I don't remember what movie it was, though. Something in the 90:ies.

[@nijamase]

When Mad Max fury road was released I was traveling south east asia. I loved the movie so much that I saw it 4 times in 4 different countries and every country had their own little thing that was cut or changed.

[@JPH1138]

Something like that happened with Jackie Chan's first and forgotten effort to break into Hollywood, a film called The Protector. Chan felt a lot of stuff in the original cut was gratuitous, particularly nudity, and wanted it cut out, and he also wanted better choreographed action. So for the Chinese release he made his own edit that cut out a lot of stuff but also added new action sequences that he shot himself.

[@dindindundun8211]

Would be a good undertaking to combine both versions into one super version. Naturally, quality would be subordinate to forming the *complete* experience.

[@Delete59187]

⁠p❤pl😊o

[@GWinterbornYT]

There’s a definitive difference between what design is and what art is. Not just colloquially talking about the content of aesthetic objects, they’re entirely different disciplines with different goals. There can be a little procedural crossover, but they’re meant to accomplish different things. Games can be art, but the vast majority are designed products. Works of art are composed, products are designed. Art is primarily about communicating through composition and aesthetics (within whatever medium) to an audience about different aspects of human condition/consciousness. Design is primarily about connecting a person to a concrete thing (an object, a system, or a behavior) in ways that focus on and make primary the experience with the thing itself. Game Design is taught as the latter and has been applied by the industry as the latter with increasing focus on things, especially as the products became more successful. Art, in the basic academic sense of the word (and not just aesthetic objects), can be commodified, but the intent and focus isn’t on the thing itself, it’s on the introspective experience facilitated by the thing through the medium; it’s not “designed” for an audience, it’s composed for a message. The people paying to have the products designed are less into pushing boundaries because they’d rather the products be about the thing itself, way less about being any kind of expression or message (unless you can make a cut scene that looks like a movie they can showcase in a commercial, then we can pretend that’s art within the interactive medium). It’s the same motivation behind all designed entertainment. Adult people don’t mind interacting with art, but all people are fine (to some degree) interacting with designed products (entertainment). Products have a wider audience than art. Very, very few people approach games from an art perspective; generally they approach it from a design perspective (and are called designers). Fallout was approached from a design perspective, so the focus was on the experience with the thing itself, with the messages being secondary and ignorable (as is fine, even preferable, with designed products for entertainment). Games don’t have to be “weird” to be approached from an art perspective, they just have to be more about the introspective experience than the thing itself. The thing, and the interaction with the thing, is there to communicate the message; you don’t sacrifice the message for the aesthetics or function of the thing (that’s what makes design different from art). You have to make the aesthetics and function (the composition) serve the message that leads to the introspective experience as primary. For instance, when I design content for e-learning, my goal is to create graphics that connect a consumer to the concrete instructional information. The connection being facilitated is intrinsic to the graphic (image, animation, interactive content) itself; the design can’t go beyond or around that concrete information. The creativity involved is derived entirely from the concrete information and the need to connect a person to it epistemologically and pedagogically. In that, the product itself is the focus of attention, interaction, and analysis on the part of the consumer. The consumer isn’t meant to have an experience beyond or in the absence of the aesthetics of the graphic. When I work on a something from an artistic perspective, my goal is to embody, within the confines of a medium, the qualitative and introspectional essence of some condition or mental state or other. The piece can do that any way I feel can be understood on any level. The creativity derives entirely from the content of my own mind, as I understand the message on a personal and communal level, with the message not needing to be immediately accessible at once, but accessible all the same. In that, the representation of the condition or mental state is the focus, with the composition existing to facilitate introspection of such; nothing is intrinsic to the composition, as the message can be represented in any way subjective to my experience, and can be consumed in any way subjective to the receiver. The receiver is intended to continue to have the introspective experience catalyzed by the composition of the piece beyond and in the absence of the piece, since the introspective experience is the intended focus. Game Design is focused on a person playing and thinking about a game in and of itself. Game Art would be focused on a person having an introspective experience about some qualitative or existential content or other, even when the interaction with the game is indefinitely terminated. One isn’t objectively better than the other, conceptualizing one being better would make no functional sense, they serve different experiential purposes. Games just tend to be designed products rather than artistic works, as that’s how they were conceptualized and that’s how the industry that produces the most games has functioned. Edit: I should add that Art (in this sense) can be entertaining (aesthetically pleasing in and of itself), and Designed Entertainment can contain a message (some communicated content that can be thought about away from the piece), but in both cases those conditions are the secondary aspect of the experience (and can even be overlooked). Design is primarily about aesthetics (meaning the valued sensory content), Art is primarily about introspection (meaning what’s taken away from the piece).

[@philbertius]

Useful analysis, thank you! You have any recommended reading on this subject?

[@GWinterbornYT]

@@philbertius Not a lot of people tackle things from that angle when it comes specifically to games, academically. It’s difficult to do because so few examples exist to analyze. C. Thi Nguyen’s “Games: Agency as Art,” gets in the ballpark, but since most examples to build ideas around are designed products, most of what is approached is thinking about what the aesthetic and compositional elements of games really are/could be considered (I agreed before discovering the book that sense of agency is probably the right perspective, so mileage may vary). As far as general goal oriented differences between art and design, I don’t have any particular book in mind, but I think there are probably insightful things around on the internet if the question were put into Google or whatever one prefers. The most basic, skipping a lot of nuance perspective is kind of like (thing meaning any nonconscious entity outside of oneself): Engineering-Things relationship to Things Design-People’s relationship to Things Art-People’s relationship to Metaphysical and/or Introspective States I don’t even necessarily think it’s that important outside of the discussion about why producers of entertainment tend to increasingly shy away from turbulent content. That’s where I was trying to come from. Though I do, myself, try to approach games from an art perspective, the thinking for how to approach that is so inchoate it’s hard for anyone to write about in a broad way right now.

[@ViViVex]

I’ve been hiding art in all my designs for years! You’ll never stop me! 🙂

[@jondoe5937]

Does this mean very little architecture can be considered art?

[@GWinterbornYT]

@jondie5937 Some architecture is entirely nonfunctional, and is even presented in such a way to make people consider themselves within it and around it, in both a representational and first-personal sense. There is no need in those cases for the work to be diverted or distracted from the message by needing to adhere overwhelmingly to function. I mean, anyone can call anything they want art or design or whatever. What I’m talking about is just the most prevalent angle people in design and fine art tend to have most often at the academic level. It’s not a perspective of concrete objects so much as approach and purpose. Many people in design would be offended if you said their work “looks like art.” Many people in fine art would be offended if you said their work “looks like design.” It has to do with approach and purpose. Anything can produce aesthetic experiences. Apples and houseflies produce aesthetic experiences. But generally, from the perspective I’m talking no about, for something to be art, rather than say design or engineering, it has to approach the composition of aesthetics in such a way that produces a semiotic message that creates introspectional attitudes that go beyond the piece or the immediate subject of the piece (if it’s representational). Ignoring some nuance and possible semantic debate, in simplest terms, where “things” means any non-conscious construct or entity (an object, a system, a behavior, etc): Engineering is about facilitating things relationships to other things. Design is about facilitating people’s relationships to things. Art is about facilitating people’s relationship to their own metaphysical condition and place within existence. Each can do some aspect of all of those things, but the core focus, the aspect that can’t be overshadowed for the others, is what basically defines how each tends to be categorized. Nobody has to agree or disagree with any of that or any other academic breakdown of these things. I just find it’s the most helpful proposition with respect to critique, analysis, and creation.

[@SoundwaveSuperior1991]

I never knew how much all this can affect the games overall outcome. I knew some things, I now understand why we have regional locked games in more depth. Thank you again Tim for more depth on things I knew little about but have more depth now. Cheers

[@pushygeoduck]

Thanks for (all) the candid insights into the games and the industry. Have you considered creating a video of you playing your games while commentating on them? I recently watched a past Obsidian live stream with you and Leonard Boyarsky playing Fallout and it was very insightful to hear you speak on the specific elements of the game and entertaining overall. Thanks again for the content!

[@Elemak501]

This would be wonderful. Director commentary tracks for movies were goldmines in film studies courses for this very reason. The shift from hardcopy (DVD/Blu-Ray) distribution to a mostly digital library ownership model coincided with the death of commentary tracks (along with Special Features generally). However, and quite unfortunately, the time commitment and various legal challenges inherent in producing comparable long form Let’s Plays will probably relegate such content to permanent Unicorn status. 😔

[@michaelk1860]

This is an awesome and refreshing take from somebody who has actually been there from the early days of the gaming industry. I love your videos. I am a Computer Science student that was always planning on taking the path of least resistance as a software dev, but watching your videos has inspired me to want to do game dev. I am taking computer graphics right now over the summer and loving it. Next semester i am taking AI and Game theory for my final classes of my bachelor’s degree. I really hope to make some cool games in the future, and I wouldn’t have felt so motivated to do it without your videos. So thank you for making this content.

[@aNerdNamedJames]

Feel *somewhat* confident in guessing that the line about Stick of Truth potentially being "not a sellable product" was talking about the mainquest abortion clinic section, lol

[@Elemak501]

Various poop related mechanics and plot lines exist like a remora fish in the abortion clinic’s very large slipstream, although they would probably elicit a “okay, haha, really…butt why?” rather than potentially bar the product from market. (Enjoy the deliberate Freudian typo. I’m no dad, but I play one for a Ragdoll.)

[@DarkKnight198]

There definitely still is a market for games that do what art is supposed to do which is push boundaries and make statements. Tim, I can highly recommend Disco Elysium. Game is set in a world of a failed working class revolution and it's got some great writing and interesting mechanics

[@DoctorFurioso]

The devs also listed Fallout (1) as a major influence.

[@pupunas]

Disco Elysium doing really well - both in terms of critical reception and sales - i think is proof that people are still interested in this kind of stuff being discussed in games

[@Gadzinisko]

@@pupunas Pity original creators got shafted by the publishers.

[@ErnestGaskin]

i fucking love tim cain and i love this channel. fallout was my fave game growing up, but i didnt know much about the man, until my friend sent me the channel. now i cant get enough of him. the way he encompasses everything good about naivity without any of its drawbacks. so gentle and kind yet competent. i want my kids to grow up to be tim cain.

[@sebastianacevedo9444]

Well quite interesting and I'm glad looking up pumpkin muffin recipes led here. Joking aside your frustration with publishers trying to make changes at the last minute was palpable and i like the figure out what statement you want to make and make it

[@WhatHoSnorkers]

Good stuff sir. When I first played Fallout 2, I was surprised to see that I'd picked up the Childkiller Karmic Title. I had no idea HOW as I'd never even SEEN a child. I then found out I was playing the unpatched version, and the children were there but INVISIBLE. This was a problem when I engaged in gun battles with the Slavers in the Den, with burst fire and explosives! It's certainly weird when things are missed out. You can treat stuff crudely and crassly, but whitewashing is a bit strange, as is being all edgy.

[@renaigh]

and people think 76 is a broken game.

[@WhatHoSnorkers]

@@renaigh It was my own fault really. The game came on a CD-ROM and the patches were there ready to install. I didn't know you had to install them, I just played the game. I got to the powerplant in Gecko and I kept getting attacked, even though I had permission to be in there. Eventually I did an Internet search and I needed to put the patches on. So I DID put the patches on, and then my save game was no longer valid :(

[@trolltalwar]

​@@renaigh 76 isnt broken, its half assed laziness. The fact that 76, or any bethesda fallout game for that matter, doesnt have a wall pinning cover system, basic climbing/vaulting mechanics or the ability to go prone and crawl is ridiculous. There is absolutely no excuse to not have these things. Its just the same rehashed engine and animations reskinned over and over and over and over

[@BradTheAmerican]

@@trolltalwar It's not the same engine over and over again.

[@katamarankatamaranovich9986]

Hey Tim, thanks for continuing making those videos

[@CudaZen]

This is why I like you Great stuff as always!

[@holdensachs8955]

I definitely miss envelope-pushing, powerful art, and mature themes. You can still find a little of it here and there, at least.

[@northlanedarko771]

Do reccomend 😊

[@rwulf]

Regarding games making statements, I remembered one of my favorite quotes: "All media is political. If you think a piece of media isn't political, either you agreed with its message or were too stupid to notice it."

[@Vicente_Lopes_Senger]

5:44 For art in general: you say what you want to say, in a clever and interesting way. And then you never apologize or try to explain it.

[@TheJofurr]

Great video topic! As a childhood abuse survivor, it was definitely weird growing up in a place where it was okay for Homer to strangle Bart on the TV but people would get bent out of shape over stuff like Marilyn Manson's music or more recently, Pride t-shirts at Target.

[@ClumsyKlumz]

I am convinced picking which thumbnail to use must be Tim's favourite part of the day, they're perfect

[@Slade_9000]

Love your content, you demonstrate a wealth of knowledge and experience across multiple disciplines.

[@DylanBradRamsey]

Thanks as always for sharing Tim!

[@docnecrotic]

I needed this video today. Thanks as always, Tim!

[@ManOfParody]

Tim, I can tell you for sure: People WANT this edginess in games. Unfortunately, there's a massive disconnect between developers and consumers right now. And honestly, almost all of these major game companies just don't understand what consumers want, anymore. They're softening our games when we never asked for that. There's absolutely no evidence of games doing poorly in sales because they "went too far." But there's absolutely evidence of games failing because they played it too safe. We want the edginess. Developers just aren't listening, and they think they know what consumers want more than the consumers.

[@BlackMasterRoshi]

I think the managerial elite in most fields is completely divorced from the reality of the common man these days. I don't know if they've always been this far up their own asses but it seems like today there are more incentives for believing your own BS then there are for being honest about anything.

[@vinicius5095]

they're scared of being cancelled on twitter or w/e. It does happen, see Ken Levine and a bunch of other people that criticized the left on their games (regardless of also criticizing the right). Also see what reddit thinks of Leonard and Tim when they found out they're not socialist or communists. (Not saying the right doesn't cancel devs - gamergate was hell - but nowadays I'm just seeing this from the left)

[@UToobUsername01]

pin this guy's comment. The whole cancel culture thing is to blame. Game companies need to stop listening to fake fans of games. These fake fans are really just political activists. We want entertainment not propaganda. Obama legalised the use of propaganda to be used on the citizens in 2012. This is why we are seeing all these woke message being forced down our throats. It has basically destroyed Star Wars and many other iconic pop culture franchises.

[@northlanedarko771]

Devs have no say. Devs don't make games for themselves and other gamers. Devs make what they're told by men in suits who have no idea at all about games but just want money. This is my theory......gamea are going to get ALOT worse. Unless gamers stop this micro-transaction bullshit overnight. And unfortunately thw true gamers are us ,and qere not doing that shit. So its inevitable that this is going to gey way way qorsw because the ones buying that shit are current gene gamers. They are eating it up like pokie players. They dont care about art story ect .

[@jashloseher578]

Great question, and a great response, Tim.

[@BorderOllie]

Amen, thank you! All things that I personally notice as a player that I wish was challenged more. I love your channel already lol, I don't know why I only discovered you have one yesterday 🙈

[@Kraft4155]

Great video. Have to agree with everything you said and wish studios would address touchy subjects more in their games, as I think it adds a layer of realism to the project.

[@SxD1982]

Absolutely fascinating. Thank you for talking about this.

[@danielliew8698]

As a player, one of my favorite examples of being shown how civilization can go on post-apocalypse is contingent on whether a settlement of people has a reliable source of food. For sustenance. Like farms.

[@xdeckard6]

I personally think this kind of stuff just adds to the world building, it feels more believable in it's own way. Arcanum is a game that respects the player's inteligence

[@Qzma91]

strangiest restriction in modern fallouts you can do heavy jet/psycho/morpheum drugs but not a single drag of a cigarette

[@TheYoungtrust]

C n' C Generals is still relevant today. "The tunnels will protect us" "Our land must be preserved" "Can I have some shoes?"

[@kotzpenner]

It was insanely ahead of its time, and is still my favourite C&C. I could never get into the more fantastical world of the main line of games. AK47s for everyone!

[@PostTimeskipSam]

"I'll build anywhere" "Movin' on up"

[@kotzpenner]

@@PostTimeskipSam "China will grow larger!" or any piece of dialogue by the GLA, they're all so iconic and funny

[@SecondFinale]

"Life is Strange" really effed me up because there was no warning and my brain processes fiction deeply. They didn't show the suicide hotline number until after the trauma sequence. If I knew what I was in for I'd have been better.

[@danielphillips1973]

Tim? As a 35 year old man I want to say. I *really* want to see more games with that kind've subject matter being addressed. PIllars of eternity really had teeth when it came to subject matter with texture. I really hope people like me will vote with their wallets to see more of that kind of content. I know I kickstarted both PoE and PoE2

[@lobosolitario3416]

I'd really like a follow-up on this one talking about, independently of all the external constraints you have to deal with, how you come to agreements as a team on a more granular level. OK, so your game is ultraviolent, but then there's always the one guy who wants to take it just a step too far - do you have any systems in place for this kind of thing?

[@cilcxx]

Heavily second this, very curious where the line is drawn, and where’s the point where it’s a level of respect vs disrespect

[@CainOnGames]

That's why games need game directors. Every feature in the game goes through that person, whether it's about violence, or religion, or nudity, or sexual content. Basically, any of the "touchy subjects". You need someone who says "this is too far, the line is here". It's impossible to define the line objectively, so you need someone to enforce it. Game directors are benevolent dictators.

[@chiseledmedal2634]

I know you may not see this Tim. Still, in relation to 4:05 a cool idea for punishing immoral choices would be to use something like the Cyberpunk(the TTRPG specifically) Humanity stat, in cyberpunk it is how human you are based on the amount of machinery you implant, the less humanity the closer the PC is to becoming an uncontrollable feral cyborg. I think making a system that punishes your character by changing how they are perceived as a human(or semi-reasonable person) would be interesting to see, maybe the character gets hallucinations of NPCs, maybe they are locked out of areas or actions or choices because they are spiralling into this mindset lots of cool stuff I wanted to present to you Tim and to the people in the comments

[@pavx45]

Thank you for saying this Uncle Tim!! Loved Fallout to death but (and I get that its a pretty strange and messed up gripe) the fact that i can kill quest givers (or KO them at least) but kids are just like little gods who can't be targeted bugged the crap out of me because it broke the immersion of the living world.

[@punjivr]

Great insight once again, thanks Tim!

[@n0de_punk735]

i think it's important for art/media/entertainment to explore uncomfortable/touchy subjects to their fullest. it's a lot better to engage with those issues in a pretend world than be caught off guard in real life.

[@al_my_pal]

There is a dire need for games to not shy away from those more touchy themes.

[@cory1187]

Great video Mr. Cain, I really enjoy your channel!

[@WastelandChef]

There is also that narrative dimension inherent to RPGs where several solutions exist to solve an issue/quest and therefore can lead to more or less touchy subjects

[@plebisMaximus]

I think it's a bit sad we don't try to tackle anything rough anymore. I really liked how starting as a woman in Mount & Blade Warband gave you a lot of disadvantages, it's harder to get a fortress, it's harder to get sworn in as a knight and so on, losing that for Bannerlord was the biggest loss. A happy sparkly rainbow world just isn't as interesting from a worldbuilding perspective as one with some level of conflict.

[@colin-campbell]

That initial difficulty would make the end reward so much more gratifying, another reason to keep these kinds of things in

[@Loadernator123]

The World isn't fair at all, I can't stand it when games based around risky circumstances are too afraid to upset one side even though that's how life is.

[@totlyepic]

This is an imagined "problem" that doesn't actually exist

[@pibble9207]

⁠@@totlyepicpeople like you are exactly why these things are hard to address

[@pibble9207]

⁠@@totlyepicpeople like you are exactly why this problem exists

[@sleepofgc]

In terms of impact, the finesse is to do it candidly and congruent with the logic and themes of the setting. Rimworld and other such 'story generator' games are very good at this. The game mechanics have the agency to create desperate scenarios that stretch your moral perceptions. You don't order heinous acts to meet the prequisite for a perk or get good boy points with a party member--you walk the line between what is necessary and what you can tolerate. What is the line where people resort to cannibalism? That's for the player to decide; when there's a decision, there's ownership.

[@justvisiting375]

it's always such a pleasure to get Tim's thoughts. Lots of experience and wisdom that goes into these

[@ddaymace]

Tim! The risk taking in your games is so important. The same risk taking in storytelling is what makes great books and movies. Games are art and the industry needs more developers like you. I want to like Starfield so bad, but Bethesda has played it so safe with the vanilla storytelling that I am not immersed. Something is wrong when we have to depend on the modding community to make games more interesting and provocative. Don't retire! Make indie games that carry on the tradition of Fallout, Arcanum, etc. Thanks.

[@H0VA]

I love the older games who just used text or certain "offscreen" events just to shoe horn in any sort of crazy event that could happen in real life.

[@sconeeeestuff]

touchy subjects drive controversy but also draw players to mature conversations. both can create conflicts but they don’t have to.

[@Theaisa]

I felt really let down when a bunch of children stole from me in BG3 and the game wouldn't let me kill them. I am literally playing an 'evil' character; I sided with Minthara and later killed the druids, why would I blink at killing a bunch of kids who STOLE from me? I think it was a bad decision to include a plot line with kids stealing from the PC and then not allow you the most straightforward way of getting your things back. Edit: Oh, and it didn't occur to me until I watched your videos that this might be a local (I'm in Europe) thing.. maybe in the US you can kill them? It's a strange thought in this day and age that the game we all buy on Steam might have regional differences.

[@chaserseven2886]

perfect thumbnail

[@fosterjoshua]

It sounds like publishers putting a bunch of limitations on a game towards the end of its development cycle is a touchy subject for Tim Cain :D

[@sevenproxies4255]

That's not true. People want games that do include these subjects. It's just that the board of directors at game publishers don't take advice from their audience first and foremost, but mostly from non-gaming affiliated sources. Us gamers are basically left with the choice of buying and playing the new games that come out, even though they don't have all the things we want from them, or not buying or playing any new games at all.

[@BlackMasterRoshi]

like how we don't get to select our politicians either

[@TouchdownTFTD]

There was a game in development back in 2006 called Come Midnight by People Can Fly. I remember Adrian Chmielarz saying in an interview how somebody from PR, a publisher or whatever went ballistic on them for a certain scene. What was that incredibly shocking scene, you ask? A little girl coughing because a character was smoking a cigarette. They told them that not only they cannot have a scene like that in the game but also that they can never ever under any circumstances show a child and someone smoking in the same room. Ever since then I've been wondering just how many of those unspoken censorship rules there are in the big companies, no matter how inoffensive or absurd the thing in question is.

[@null2114]

4:30 Anyone know of a video where Tim talks more about essential NPCs? YT's search is so bad, I can't find anything

[@LTdan457]

I feel like shows like the Orville handled modern topics in a very tame and engaging way that makes the audience think, similar to how Star Trek Next Generation did. It didn’t beat you over the head telling you what the point was, it presented a scenario for you to observe and think about to come to the conclusion your self.

[@yportne6410]

I think people complain when games make statements such as: X bad or Y victim A game like Bioshock makes a statement, but only after it earned to do so. I felt less like a statement and more like a conclusion that was reached after some thought was put into it. More games like this! I can't get enough of them.

[@IbilisSLZ]

Hmmm going around various tochy subcjects... could make some kind of logical game (or expansion for Game Dev Tycoon).

[@massivive]

"zombie bad, skeleton good" noted, thanks

[@satsubatsu347]

Bethesda Fallouts: Still haven't figured out roofs.

[@rifleshooterchannel208]

Fallout 3 has over 200 endings though.

[@Chriscras2]

Culture is a canvas and all colors are paintable.

[@beyasal]

I think how cautions people are today when approaching these subjects is why we will never have another fallout game in the line of fo1, fo2, fnv, or even fo3. fo4 was very tame or indirect in comparison when approaching certain touchy subjects that those other games had a more direct approach to.

[@jellyfrosh9102]

Which is funny considering how fucked up the Institute really is in 4

[@TheJakeSweede]

I think there is an "art" of doing touchy subjects. Certain words will feel different and have different punch, depending on the mouth it is coming out of, and how they are saying it. What South Park says has a good chance of not being received the same way if it was someone else saying it. For some reason, I care a lot about what other people think, which makes it tricky in my case to express myself, as I often feel like I am not able to effectively communicate what I want. Then seeing other people say the same stuff I am trying to, but in a different way, and they receive warmth for saying it while I was reprimanded, it can make me quite upset. But I guess it is just reality when it comes to human social rules and interactions

[@wangtoriojackson4315]

Hello Tim, I would love to know your thoughts on JRPGs. Have you played many of them, and if so, are there any that you really like? I know JRPGs in general have a lot of genre conventions and tropes that are antithetical to what you've said you typically like to see in RPGs, like character customization, player choice, non-linearity, etc.

[@llamasarus1]

Toe a little bit over the line without briskly crossing it.

[@sumikomei]

I think a game where you can progress in a way that gives you the agency to solve those "contentious" problems, would be really, really cool.

[@TheMarcone1985]

I am still laughing for that unused icon for childkiller skill in fallout 2

[@stug41]

In FO1 it is particularly important that there be human children so that one can realize and tell the master that there are no mutant children and thus the mutants cannot reproduce. Not just a realism thing an important way of solving the game if one is attentive.

[@hansno1475]

Thank you for making this tim! It’s a question I had that I didn’t even know I’d had. I’m currently making a game set in an alternate old west and obfuscating the very obvious inequalities of that time felt wrong but I also feel like including them means I’m de-including someone that one have otherwise not been included in something “old west.” It’s a difficult thing to broach

[@misterj8815]

The Child Killer reputation was great for the theme of "you can do what you want, but there are severe consequences" I certainly preferred it to the invunerable children of fallout 3, but I understand why they did it...graphics have come a long way

[@mateusz73]

the german censors have to be the funniest, for command and conquer generals they made all the character and unit art into like cyborgs and robots, so you got like cyborg US and Chinese generals going up against cyborg GLA, the also turned one unit straight up into a robot vehicle

[@Glimmlampe1982]

yeah, that was a wild time, always hunting for the "blood patch", especially before the rise of the internet you needed contacts on your school yard :D but as most things, when the old move out of the equation and the young getting older, things change and theres not much censoring anymore.

[@madisons2117]

Shadows make really good hiding spots for not-so-nice folk. So when things like these are blocked out, I wonder who might be benefitting from my ignorance.

[@gianlucam7456]

Video games have always made statements, but you don't see that kind of clever writing anymore. Where did subtlety go?

[@BlackMasterRoshi]

apparently subtlety is semi-retired these days

[@Glimmlampe1982]

you probably still do, but less in trippel A titles, with those high budgets they play it save, like the movies. its more a indie thing now I guess.

[@gianlucam7456]

@@Glimmlampe1982 very few indies keep their game subtle. Most of what i've seen are clones of clones, uninspired stuff.

[@WardSennes]

It feels much better for the game itself to tell you killing is bad than the developers doing it by making them invulnarble. And not killing innocent when you know you can.

[@ssuuppeerrbbooyy]

Someone should make a power armor mod that lets you strap an essential NPC to block the shots. Also: is using an essential NPC as a human shield immoral?

[@BlackMasterRoshi]

or an enchantment spell that makes them go into all the dangerous places for you

[@exploding-man]

I think there is a connection to be made between your views on humor and wanting it to be timeless and how games make statements. If it is too topical or referential, it probably won't hit the mark.

[@LaSagadeF]

I love this human

[@Remi-bo7tn]

I love a game where everything is permitted

[@CanadianChick811]

I'd love to know what regions limit what if that's OK to talk about.

[@theguy9363]

Blant is what I thought of when watching the movie civil war. It was saying so little, if it didn't say civil war in the title I wouldn't have known it had anything to do with it

[@DoctorRevers]

Incredible movie imo. It’s an example of a scenario that’s not far off from reality. But it’s fiction. Great story and characters. Loved it. I think it has to be seen in the theater though. Different experience.

[@Moosenthusiast]

I mean you can call it discrimination in Arcanum but if you put enough wizards on the train it will derail or explode or something 😀

[@NightShader1]

I see games as a multi-art. Music, Writing, Story, Graphics, Acting...

[@SecondFinale]

Most important is the player knows roughly what they're in for so they're mentally ready (or choose to skip the game). Also, you can have a setting up front to make children invincible, skip rape scenes, etc.

[@nutherefurlong]

I would love to have a master list of international taste restrictions... are there any generally available anywhere?

[@Tom-f4d6l]

While I think tackling touchy subjects and holding a mirror up to society is important; how do you handle interpersonal or team issues that can arise from touchy subjects? What's your approach to team members who feel something is going too far? What if those people are not on the team that is responsible for the content they don't like? What about the reverse of this problem where you have developers on your team who aren't aware of certain stereotypes or aren't saying anything about it (and why they might not be saying something)? Should it be expected that beyond just doing your job employees should be expected to bring themselves and their personal experiences to development (as biased as they might be)? And the final most hardest question; What do you do if your team (who might be naïve) disagree with the notes that external experts on sensitive topics are saying? P.S. Sorry for asking 6ish difficult questions.

[@cilcxx]

Hey Tim, I was wondering if you had any thoughts on intentionally broken mechanics (stuff like ouroboros in inscryption) things put in the game with the developer knowing it’s op for fun, do you think there’s right or wrong way to do this? Thanks

[@BigSlimyBlob]

To me a game feels censored if it's lacking some of those elements. Even a fantasy world with elves and magic and dragons would have violence, religion, wealth inequality, racism, substances, etc. If they're not there... something's missing. And don't get me started on nudity and sex. It's crazy how these things are being treated worse than all the bad things I listed earlier.

[@ImHELLBERG]

I want "zombie bad, skeleton good" on a shirt

[@Superman0308]

I think the difference on modern 'statements' vs. historical, is the skill of developers and writers. Feel like old school did it more skillfully, where a lot of modern works seen to have the subtlety of a bull in a China shop and the skill of a fanfic writer in high-school.

[@TimvanderLeeuw]

Terry Pratchett did a great job exploring things as racism and gender-issues in his Discworld book series. It never hurt their popularity.

[@erraticonteuse]

Not to mention class: the Sam Vimes Boots Theory and all that.

[@TimvanderLeeuw]

@@erraticonteuse Yes, absolutely! (It just so happens that I'm re-reading Men At Arms just now and just re-read that 😁)

[@Elemak501]

It’s exactly this aspect of SciFi/Fantasy that more easily allows such work to achieve and maintain cultural power and relevance both contemporary and timeless.