Touring ZEISS: Learning about CMM and Metrology!

Until recently, CMMs were typically only found in large factories but times have changed! We've seen an increasing number of smaller shops willing to invest in this technology--and for good reason.
The manual QC process has been the way manufacturing entrepreneurs have gotten by; however, with more people competing to secure work contracts, sending "bad" parts out the door isn't an option. If you're looking to level up your workflow processes or product quality, it's always good to be aware of new technology--even if you can't implement it right this second. Let's check out the different types of CMMs that Zeiss has to offer!
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Links for this video:
Liberty Machine Tour | bit.ly/2OMZAgD
MariTool Tour | bit.ly/39oBwZp
Miltera Tour | bit.ly/31aGxBw
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CNC Resources: www.nyccnc.com
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I discovered machining as an adult and I'm grateful to have found something I love that I can share with others. We hope NYC CNC not only makes you a better machinist but helps you understand and learn more about how to succeed as a manufacturing entrepreneur! 5 Reasons to Use a Fixture Plate on Your CNC Machine: bit.ly/3sNA4uH

[@Wastedwu]

It was great to shake your hand. I was the awkward guy. I said I liked your channel and content and when you asked if I was in the trade i said "no, just a geek". I used to be. I have rebuilt a couple of some older Zeiss machines.

[@dwaynevarnell9157]

As a metrology engineer who calibrates and error maps CMM's on a regular basis for a major aerospace company I can say these are great and accurate CMM's however.. User expertise is essential and not cheap. Also you need to budget for calibration and repair in your decision making process because a simple calibration with ISO 10360 in mind is very expensive and will have to be done annually in most high production volumes. We do ours at least every 3 to 6 months. Another thing "crashes" happen just like on your CNCs so count on it! You will be down for weeks. Depending on you location it can be difficult to find qualified metrology vendors to perform your calibrations. The cost just adds up quickly. Not to discourage you but I've seen plenty of waste because the user needs the confidence and expertise to operate and maintain a CMM. If you do buy do your due diligence on all makes and models that you deem viable. Customer service with Zeiss is good but there are others. Licenses for the software is another thing to consider do your due diligence with that as well because it is just as important. Sales folks for these companies do there best to provide accurate information but they are sales people ;-)

[@dwaynevarnell9157]

Also consider your shop environment. Nothing worse on a CMM's accuracy than putting it next to a machine with cutting fluid and temperature swings not to mention vibration. Most shop CMM's are design with this in mind. TEMPERATURE is your enemy! CTE compensation should be included but uncertainty even in thermal controlled environments. Make sure the manf quotes you volumetric accuracy with YOUR shops temperature swings. Know the tolerances of the part you manf and get at least a 4:1 tolerance uncertainty ratio with the CMM you choose. Take temp measurements of your shop with a calibrated temp probe though a typical week and see the swings (winter and summer) opening and closing roll up doors. Thermal gradients with air flow across the CMM also should be limited with gantry CMM's. Use diffusers on vents anywhere near a CMM. Its best to place the CMM in a separate room away from the machine centers or enclose the CMM. Those are my recommendations.

[@ktmtooling]

@@dwaynevarnell9157 well explanation, Dwayne, yeah, i agree with you, the accuracy is the most important for mold or plastic parts checking, any mistakes of the machine will ruin the tool or the parts. we are also a professional toolmaker in China.

[@90FF1]

@@dwaynevarnell9157 Excellent point on the environment. In the 1990s, the company had a CMM incoming staging area for parts that were CNC manufactured in the factory. The CMM & the staging were air conditioned. By time the incoming production was "cold soaked" over night, --- well you get the picture. No more staging parts in the AC area. Long since retired, it wasn't my area of responsibility. I don't remember the mfg of the CMM or the details.

[@MetrologyEngineer]

Great points! I’m a Metrology Engineer for a small-ish Metrology company and on a regular basis I hear our CMM operator groaning about how much of a pain the software is so definitely keep that in mind with your purchase!

[@tjvanderloop1686]

Your Tour was Awesome. CMM automation and repeatability is marvelous with "geometric tolerancing" and ability to do sub-micron measurements. Thanks for supporting professional shop-floor tooling and equipment assembled in the USA/Minnesota. A "Spectrum" model is a great shop-floor CMM-tool. Respectfully, Thanks for the Shop-floor Tour! T J (Tom) Vanderloop, CMfgE, Author, Mechanical Designer, & Consultant: Memberships in ATEA, AWS & SME

[@steverose7112]

The touch probe was invented by English engineer David McCurtry The CMM wouldn’t be what they are today without this invention., as stated by Norbuo Suga of Mitutoyo Great invention from Renishaw

[@shuggiemacatlarge3740]

It is excellent that you gave the recognition to Sir David but his name is actually Sir David McMurtry and he was born, raised and educated in Ireland. Renishaw, the company he founded, is indeed based, and founded in Gloucestershire, England. As a metrology professional for forty years, working for CMM manufacturers, including Ferranti who invented the CMM, I can say hand on heart that Renishaw are the most impressive and innovative of all the worlds metrology companies - in my opinion.

[@RyGuy1135]

We have a Duramax on the shop floor and a Contura w/ RDS XXT head and it’s so much fun. I love the Calypso software as well.

[@TheCrash8212]

I've been in that room many times. The Prismo is a show piece with sub micron accuracy over 500mm. I program and run a Contura with the XXT head every day. That place is like my playground. I head there when I need to research a new piece of equipment.

[@bostedtap8399]

Excellent tools, takes out the difficulty of measuring squareness, when reorientation in 2 D measuring. Thanks for sharing.

[@BTSensei]

Wow! That flexible mount was awesome. 👍😊

[@patrickwabwire1025]

A good CMM is half the work. Checking a part to a print with proper GD&T is the other. If you have prints where dimensions are still in the +/- days, you are verifying next to nothing. You may be able to verify size but not location or orientation or even form sometimes. If you have prints with mis-applied GDT, especially my favorite datum precedent violation, it is futile exercise. The math behind how CMM measure is specified in the umbrella ASME Y14.5 standard. CMMs are getting super accurate but none of it matters if the prints defining the parts are not complaint.

[@EdgePrecision]

John are you really in the market for a CMM? I have a Contura G2 with the Vast XT head and extras. I might be willing to part with. Send me a e-mail and I will shoot you some specs and photos.

[@dennisrathi]

Id be interested if its bigger than my Contura 7/7/6? I need a 10 / 10/ 6 min.

[@barrythompson8813]

Very interesting to learn that Zeiss have 'affordable' entry level machines and kudos for actually providing indicative costs! Garry did a great job of presenting the range and technology scope for each. As always, thanks John !

[@instrumentselection1107]

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[@instrumentselection1107]

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[@metrologycmm5951]

This is perfect and simple and nice tour!

[@keith789654]

Great video - thanks for taking the time.

[@danmenes3143]

Wherein John tries to convince himself he needs a new toy he can't afford.

[@rayeaglenz]

Thank you, very interesting, always a great watch :)

[@timhalcomb4041]

Learned a lot thanks for taking us on this tour you have a blessed day

[@twinstaged]

Did you bring them one of your fixture plates to measure? How did that work out timewise compared to how you do it now?

[@rajeevvaidya470]

Really interesting for various measurements of parts

[@jst6757]

At work we machine columns and arms for their Horizontal Arm CMMs. Zeiss is a very cool company with a unique philosophy,

[@ktmtooling]

Hi, which country brand of your CMM machine, we use our local Chinese brand an my UK customer also purchased one in China.

[@danielfowler7776]

Rocking the contura...great machine.

[@Spirit532]

Would've been neat to see the metrology x-ray microtomography systems they had in the back.

[@occamssawzall3486]

The Xenos is insane. Zeiss won’t even sell it to you (assuming you’re can even afford it) unless they inspect and qualify the area you’re installing it in. Massive foundation and isolation requirements, strict thermal and humidity level controls and it’s pretty much a permanent fixture, there’s not really any moving it around later. Basically have to dedicate its own room for it in the basement somewhere. But it will get you accuracy to 0.3 microns

[@ktmtooling]

So which CMM machine do you think is the best you have used? maybe you can recommend to us, we are a professional plastic injection tool maker in China.

[@occamssawzall3486]

Shirley Xu That’s a pretty open ended question. It ultimately depends on the size of the molds you’re measuring and tolerances you’re trying to check. Injection molded parts that are mostly cosmetic in function don’t need super critics tolerances except at the split lines, where as molded parts that have a function to them, like medical parts, have critical tolerances that need to be held within the cavity surfaces. A general rule is you want a machine that will at least measure to 5X smaller than your smallest tolerance. So if all your parts are +\- 0.05 mm (0.1mm total tolerance zone). You’d need at minimum something that can repeatedly measure to 0.020 mm If you’re trying to hold +\- 0.01mm. You’d need at minimum a machine that could repeatedly measure 0.004mm

[@ktmtooling]

amazing about your answer, are you an expert of mold making, have you bought molds from China?

[@occamssawzall3486]

Shirley Xu Not molded parts explicitly , but medical parts and we’ve ordered injected parts from China before, but we do the bulk of our injection molds and molding in house

[@amazing7761]

@@ktmtooling kzbin.info/www/bejne/mIHMo6mQr6x5eKc I think it's this one

[@ericmoreau7770]

love that video if you made more of metrology for sure ill be the first one to watch it :o)

[@xhanwilliam]

How much force was applied (minimum) during scanning and what is the smallest size of probe?

[@ClairvoyanceXD]

We have the exact same machine in our school which is seen at 2:29 , such a cool machine to use and interesting once you get to learn it more!

[@jimrogers6772]

We run the FARO Arms in our shops. They are amazing for our application ( Metal Spinning and 5-Axis waterjet cutting ). Not as accurate as the stationary CMM'S ( +/- 0.0025 )

[@marcegomez5224]

Because the drivers of an Acura cmm turn off when it is measuring since it gives a point and they turn off they already checked the connection is fine and the program is so good the truth is giving us many problems

[@dudeabides23]

As a Photogrammetrist I'm surprised that a remote sensing tech is not only more accurate but also more inexpensive. I'm looking to transition to metrology. Can anyone give some insight into why Lidar or photo would not be better for this? I'm sure there's a good reason. Especially with Zeiss involved

[@walkercameron8196]

Can we get an update on the injection mold you made for the fixture table plugs?

[@nyccnc]

It's still pressing away!

[@tardishouseshop2231]

When taken care of they are wonderful machines. The thing I have seen is that no one ever wants to calibrate the probes often enough. Just like you should check your micrometer to a standard at least daily, you need to calibrate the probes on the same time scale. I have seen probes read off on our Prismo by as much as 0.080 mm because they were not calibrated in over 2 weeks. Climate control will become a huge thing when you have one. Parts will have to soak to reach the correct temperature so that they can be checked. It can be several hours to do this and means loss of production time, plus the machine cools down affecting your sizing by having the ball screws shrink. We have to make warming programs for the machines to try to keep the sizing within our tolerance of 0.010 mm while waiting for inspection of the first part of a production run. Any speck of dust will affect your measurements. Just a warning about the pitfalls of going for perfection in sizing.

[@instrumentselection1107]

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[@instrumentselection1107]

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[@bcbloc02]

So it looks like they scanned one of your plates. Find any annomolies you were not expecting?

[@mastermoarman]

How bout doing a tour of the faro scanning arm?

[@ktmtooling]

I can help to do this as we have CMM machine in our factory later.

[@shuggiemacatlarge3740]

Don't mean to be picky but it is far from true to say that until only recently CMM's were found only typically in large factories. I have been working for CMM manufacturers for nearly forty years, many as an applications engineer training customers all round the world, and it has been the case since day one that there has been a widespread customer base, from what you American's call, I believe, a Mom and Pop Shop right the way up to huge conglomerates. Indeed it was very often the smaller operations that would use their CMM in a much more imaginative way than the big companies. You are working with a fine brand and company. Zeiss have always been amongst the best products on the market and have innovated their product ranges well over the years.

[@funone8716]

I think the cool toy factor plays a big part in the overall picture.

[@hinz1]

How does the measurement system work on those? Very fine pitch and expensive glass scales I guess? And how do the ways work on those, so nothing flexes out of squareness?

[@genixia]

Not sure about Zeiss specifically, but most CMMs use air bearings on granite ways, usually with optical scales for measurement.

[@RedLegion]

Squareness is measured via laser interferometry and corrections are made in the controller.

[@Pure105]

Taking the human error out of it isn't necessarily true. It is very easy to miss use these machines and get poor results.

[@soldier715]

It's very easy to get the results YOU want from a CMM rather than the facts. Proper training and thought process on base alignments matters most.

[@TheCrash8212]

Very precise. Precise but wrong.

[@COdrummaCO]

In the shop i work out of, the CMM is dangerous. No one really understands it, and we use it to tell me people “this was certified on a CMM”. Luckily the tolerances are open as a barn door, I’d be afraid to see that quality department turn in something less than +/-.005

[@brandyhernandez61]

@@COdrummaCO Well , at least you guys aren't messing with tenths for tolerances.

[@lindonmelianflorescondori2167]

@@COdrummaCO Where I worked long time ago, it was very helpfull when something has to be drawn.

[@drrrrockzo]

Cool video...i like how you had to blur the ports on that cylinder head, can't show someone else's black magic.

[@cvasold]

Its pretty fascinating technology. I wonder how they get it to work on a granite slab or, any similar base? I mean the there is no granite slab in the world thats submicron flat? Right? I assume they use some type of reference surface then compensate in software for the degree of error? I'm just curious. Its probably obvious that I don't even know enough to ask the right questions.

[@ktmtooling]

I am not sure about your question, but i can check in our CMM machine in our plastic injection tool factory.

[@Funkeman]

Correct. In the olden days the machines had to have crazy accurate geometries. Nowadays the machines have to be "ok" and the rest are done by measuring the errors with laser and then compensate for it. It is called computer aided accuracy (CAA)

[@dmbworks8094]

a cmm is definitely a near future purchase for me.

[@ktmtooling]

Really? have you considered purchasing a Chinese CMM machine? as my UK customer buy a Chinese CMM machine, he is happy with it and it saves him a lot of money than buying from UK

[@marvelmaniac9891]

I actually have access to renishaw and mitutoyo cmms. If youre looking for the best bang for your buck, can definitely take you on a demo.

[@dmbworks8094]

@@marvelmaniac9891 im not ready to get one yet but it would be interesting to hear what you have. is there a way to get a hold of you

[@dashsubhasish5667]

Sir I want to operate cmm mc how to operate it

[@akashpanchal4341]

Sir please make vedio for calypso software all information and why use Rps alignment 3d best fit alignment this all important things show in that vedio

[@Ak47ram]

At what point or application a laser scanner such as Creaforms' Handyscan Black Elite (+/- 0.025) wouldn't be enough and a CMM will be required?

[@ktmtooling]

I will check with our engineer about our CMM machine when we get back to work.

[@maxradio7287]

+/- .025 is only really as good as a visual inspection, the standard machine shop tolerance is +/-.005. So unless you have access to the high end laser measuring equipment like they showcase in the video, your best bet is to stick with standard metrology tools like calipers, micrometers, gages and vblocks to achieve more accurate results, if that is what you are after.

[@Ak47ram]

@@maxradio7287 I come from automotive accessories reverse engineering background where tolerances are less tight especially considering the sizes are in meters. That's why I'm asking.

[@Ak47ram]

@@maxradio7287 Btw, do you mean 0.005 inch or mm?

[@maxradio7287]

@@Ak47ram I mean .005 inchs, but yeah it is all relative, a family member is a survey engineer and they're working with +/- an inch or a little less but it's over the span of hundreds of feet so just depends where you're coming from and where you're going

[@patriciagodoyromero2611]

Where i tale class?? I live in wisconsing??

[@Defender_928]

👍👍👍

[@Gs5487]

Now it's time to go tour Mitutoyo headquarters in Chicago!

[@nutsmcflurry3737]

yes please

[@cylosgarage]

when is the next johnny 5 unboxing video dropping??

[@nicklebeezy]

I used to build and calibrate those machines.

[@doubledarefan]

Buying one to check whether Johnny 5's parts are up to snuff❓

[@SELG88]

quick question, is this channel for starters ( i want to get into this world) or just machinists?.

[@maxradio7287]

This channel is a great resource for anybody. If you're new it does a good job of showing you a variety of what you might encounter in the manufacturing field. KZbin videos are for everybody but hands on experience is irreplaceable!

[@SELG88]

@@maxradio7287 Thanks for answering you rock

[@maxradio7287]

@@SELG88 My pleasure, I know what its like just coming up to the door so its the least I can do. Just go after it, pay attention and make it happen. There are so many opportunities right now, God bless you my dude.

[@cecilmicko6828]

Neat.

[@tryingtolearnthis]

Man I gotta get with the times. I’m still using a ruler.

[@peterhaan9068]

Wow, your fancy. It's tip of the thumb to the tip of my little finger.

[@ktmtooling]

Ruler for checking people's height but not to check a precision tool, mold or plastic parts.

[@davidsiriani9586]

I wonder if when they were probing his finger they could tell his heart rate.

[@TheCrash8212]

Definitely. I can see vibration from a freight train over a half mile away with my Zeiss Contura and my Zeiss Surfcom

[@nbtmx1]

Interesting video however I wonder if you have started to think about the storage and security of the digital data you are starting to generate

[@michaelknight2342]

That's easy. You just put it on the internet. Right where it belongs :)

[@nbtmx1]

@@michaelknight2342 and what happens if you loose your net connection then

[@vlad55775]

Интересно!

[@ninjaabcde]

Did you end up buying it?

[@daveringer9535]

We are just down the rode from them

[@RiyazKhan-bj9zt]

I learn cmm programing u help me

[@RobertWiggers]

I love these vids John but you have to start letting people finishing their sentences. You keep interrupting them.

[@Dreg555]

That's his shtick, though. Interrupting people while they talk and grabbing stuff without asking.

[@dannyd7426]

We have a CMM. We “went back” to hand check tools…

[@AlexxxPerales]

yes thats cool and all but is Johnny 5 alive yet?????

[@instrumentselection1107]

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[@VenomKen]

You need a rotary table because interpolating it would not be as accurate.

[@TheCrash8212]

It is very accurate. 1.8 micron on the XXT head with 2.5 degree indexing. The rotary is more accurate but when do you REALLY need to measure sub micron.

[@TheCrash8212]

I should clarify...the interpolation isn't as accurate. It's around 3 micron on my machine. I create and qualify each individual position as needed rather than rely on a theoretical calculation. This method maintains the machine spec accuracy.

[@VenomKen]

@@TheCrash8212 I guess one could also make the argument that there could be measurable error in the rotary table as well. When you are measuring down to that level of accuracy even just standing is a different area next to the machine could affect it.

[@TheCrash8212]

@@VenomKen that's true but the rotary table is VERY accurate with a VAST XT head. It just doesn't work with the XXT RDS due to it being passive

[@mcdoogle274]

If you need the highest precision, and you have a part that is accessible enough to work with fixed probes, then it's better to use a VAST XT head with multiple probes (an XT can carry quite heavy assemblies up to 500 grams), calibrate each tip individually and use no rotary table, so you eliminate as many moving parts as possible. That's unbeatable. I've used a setup on an Accura with two probes, one 500 mm long, one in the opposite direction 400 mm long. It was a bit tricky to calibrate, but once I got it done, the tips held a repeatability of under a micron to each other, even after five days with no re-calibration (just constant verification).

[@parkinator0beta]

Renishaw is the best with there 5 axis scanning. It gets 4000 point a second!

[@Haaalo079]

😂 i only see parts that i make (eu) yes we make parts for zeiss

[@AcydDrop]

Kern level, no Makino experience huh?

[@Big_Vasia]

why are the ports blurred out of the video, is that cylinder out of some top secret motorsport project

[@TheCrash8212]

More like top secret aerospace. Likely Boeing

[@pavelkravchuk7763]

Definitively looks like a cylinder head. You can see the cam journals on top and what looks like injector bosses/holes under the blurred out ports. It looks like a cast part, with the usual grainy look, smooth transitions and has the cross hatched lines above the intake ports, which is seen on some production cylinder heads. My guess is that they have dimples, like a golf ball, inside the runners. Other than that, I don't see a reason to blur out just the ports, but not the entire head.

[@Big_Vasia]

@@TheCrash8212 migh be who knows

[@TheCrash8212]

I didn't see it in the video. I was only speaking from experience that there is usually Boeing and Lockheed parts in there covered with boxes or cloth. Roush, Lingenfelter, GM and Ford development centers are also right up the road from there.

[@pavelkravchuk7763]

@@TheCrash8212interesting. What you say actually could be true. The more I look at it, the more I think it's for a newer v8, possibly DOHC direct injection engine. If I'm correct about the holes under the intake runners being for the injectors, then it makes sense that it's off a v8 with the fuel rails running under the intake manifold, like what the lt1 has.

[@chrisj4570g]

@3:15, must have been a Japanese part.

[@woiskorn]

Nope, German ;-)

[@rkalle66]

You may check the growth of your fingernails within a hour. :-)

[@TheCrash8212]

That CMM is so accurate and precise it could measure the growth by the minute. (Which is ~.000002"/minute)

[@shahnawajhussain2332]

Sir can I get your mail ld

[@instrumentselection1107]

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[@instrumentselection1107]

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[@jameshuppenthal3586]

There is nothing automatic about these machines. It takes an intelligent individual with good geometry, trigonometry, programming logic skills. Most CMM’s are not taken care of so they measure poorly.

[@Pfeifender]

little bit weird to see rather cheap aluminium profiles on such an expensive measuring machine

[@MusicVidsAT]

The machines with aluminium X- guideways are the cheaper ones by zeiss.

[@Pfeifender]

@@MusicVidsAT i didnt mean the guideways, i meant the tool changer for the different tips and so on

[@MusicVidsAT]

@@Pfeifender Ahh ok.

[@A.00]

I hate this brand because of your partner in france

[@punitparashar2147]

Is there any vacancy for quality engineer I have 5years of experience please contact me