Towards an American Paganism: Deities

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

On this Independence Day, I prayed to Liberty, and offered coins to her:: a nickel, a quarter, a penny, and a dime, to represent those who established the Temple of Liberty which is our nation, and those who have defended it. I prayed as well to Democracy, asking that in this election year people vote for her preservation. This was my prayer to Liberty: Liberty, your torch shines undimmed by the years. If our eyes have lost sight of you, it is our fault and not yours. We have turned our vision away from the heights from which your flames inkishine, and seen only that which divides. Be our beacon, Mother of Our Nation, and show us the way again. Mother of Peoples, unite your scattered children into one tribe, one people, one country.

[@stephaniebri5837]

As an American and Pagan this really speaks to me! I was searching for a paganism that is uniquely American without the scars of appropriation and this comes much closer to what I was looking for, thank you so much for this video!!!!

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

You're quite welcome. I've got one on the Ancestors mostly written, and hope to have it done soon.

[@forestjohnson7474]

I feel the same.

[@ZetaMagnus]

Nice. Perfect to see someone made the video I needed to find.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

Glad to hear.

[@BartitsuSociety]

I had the same idea about 8 years ago, including making symbolic offerings at statues of the various personifications on holy days. Worth noting that there is some historical precedent for the actual practice of a secular/quasitheistic civic religion via the short-lived but interesting Cult of Reason during the French Revolution.

[@NeonDruid13]

Holy shit, other people who think like me...

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

That's what I've been thinking.

[@christianjarvis167]

I'm a Canadian, but I still found this fascinating, it's inspired me to search for established pagan themes within my own country's symbolism. You may have a video response

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

That would be great. I'm glad I inspired you. I'm looking forward to your video.

[@festethephule7553]

I'll have to keep an eye out too, I suppose, being a Canadian myself.

[@NeonDruid13]

please do. we need to unite under our differences. Slainte mhatch my friend. Good luck.

[@trevorhanson6295]

I always give a offering to Lady Forward on the birthday of Wisconsin. We also have some interesting practices regarding Old Man Mississippi, the different Spirits of the Great Lakes, and the various land goddesses of our part of the country. 😊

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

Wonderful! I'd be interested in hearing about your other practices.

[@Toddoss5875]

I’ve been thinking about this very idea quite a lot lately.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

Anything you'd like to share?

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

@J. Smith You can contact me through my website, www.ceisiwrserith.com.

[@prodigalson6166]

​​@@ceisiwrserith2224 My brother I'm going to be emailing you with input concerning this. In the early 90s some of us in the Bay Area of California contemplated this Prospect, unfortunately we never pursued it. I picked something similar to this up in 2013, currently working on a couple projects, including an Asatru tradition harmonized with living on Turtle Island, but it takes a different route, but it's something that can definitely be useful. I am Mestizo, and worked as a liaison between the Native American and Pagan communities in the Bay Area in the early 90s. A friendly note to everyone, please do not make Native American-themed deities, as the spirits of the respective lands here in America do not want to be worshipped, they want to be heard, and they want us to listen to the Children of this Turtle Island.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

@@prodigalson6166 Sorry to take so long to reply. I'm going to make a video on the Land Spirits. The problem there is that there's a fine line to walk, one I'm not sure I understand, between appropriation and colonialism. If we honor the Native Land Spirits in a native way, we could be accused of appopriation, yet if we honor our own type of ancestral Land Spirits in this land (dryads, alfs, etc,) we could be accused of colonialism. Any ideas of how we can walk this line? I myself view the Land Spirits as those of individual botanical, biological, and geographic features -- individual trees, animals, and anything from stones to mountains to rivers --- imagining them as individuals, but not as humans. For instance, a tree spirit could be covered with bark instead of skin, and a stone spirit made of granite (the major rock here in NH); i.e.., both human and not human. I don't honor Eagle and Wolf and other entities that embody types and that were honored by the Natives, but rather the individual ones, This is sort of a compromise between my own ancestral Land Spirits and what I see as those of this land. What do you think of that? Do you have any advice for use Anglos? Paganism is a religion of the local, so we have to honor the local spirits if we are to be true to our religion, but figuring out how to do that isn't easy when we're not in our own ancestral land. Still, it seems clear that our ancestors, mine being primarily Indo-European, blended their own traditions, especially those regarding Land Spirits, with those of the areas they moved into, and if I'm to be true to my ancestral ways I have to find a way to do that here.

[@jerricarodriguez7898]

I watched this last night and was blown away. Watching again because its so dense. I would love a part 2! So incredible!

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

Thanks. The next one (I don't know when it will be posted) will be about the Ancestors, who I think may be the most important part of American Paganism.

[@jerricarodriguez7898]

Ceisiwr Serith literally cannot wait! Subscribing!

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

Oh, and don't wait for me, or rely on me. Think about it, work out rituals for and it do them. This is a group effort.

[@jerricarodriguez7898]

Ceisiwr Serith I just think it’s interesting. No worries.

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

I had this idea myself not too long ago, but only today stumbled on your video. I think it would be possible, and the idea still has a certain pull.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

I think it would be possible too. There is certainly a pull. If nothing else, if Paganism is to be about the local (and it's supposed to be), then an American Paganism for American Paganism is a must. I'll be making at least three more videos, on the Ancestors, the Land Spirits, and ritual/the calendar. I wanted to get the Ancestor one out this week, but I got sick. Maybe next week. I'll be putting the calendar on my website (www.ceisiwerserith.com) soon; there's some other American Paganism stuff there.

[@thomasw3880]

Where there is Gods there is Heroes. Paul Bunyon? John Henry Irons? Molly Pitcher? Lone Ranger? Johnny Appleseed? ... let us not forget Monsters! Bigfoot, Mothman, Slenderman ... I would argue that any sort of otherworld/afterlife created for American Paganism be modeled/influenced (or at the very least, not contradict) The Wizard of Oz (the 1st and greatest American Homeresque mythic and epic tale).

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

I'm going to be making another video about Ancestors, which will include heroes. I'm not sure of the extent to which I would be comfortable with fictional heroes, at least those that are more modern and more fiction than folklore. Thus perhaps John Henry, but no Lone Ranger. Interesting comment about Oz. Certainly worth thinking about. It might find a place in the gap between folklore and fiction. I could see watching the move as a ritualistic act. One of the problems with things like DVRs is that the whole country is no longer watching the same thing at the same time. It used to be that the Wizard of Oz was on once a year, and when you were watching it you knew that millions of other people were too. I only unconsciously knew that as a kid, but it was a real ritual act, in a typically American style. The only one I know of now is the Super Bowl, which attracts a lot more people that like football. Some of them are drawn in by the commercials or half-time show, of course, but many (probably most of the non-football fans) are interested in the community, or what the ritual theorist called "communitas." There are lots of Super Bowl parties, for instance, and traditional foods. Something to think about when developing an American ritual calendar and ritual styles. Forgive me for going so far afield. It's just a good example of being inspired by something different from result. An American Paganism will, like America itself, be a group effort. One might even say that it will have to be of the people, by the people, and for the people. Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. Like ancient Paganism, an American version will have difference between regions, social groups, and individuals. I'll be leaving out John Bunyan, while he may be an important part of your cultus. It's all good.

[@thomasw3880]

@@ceisiwrserith2224 Cool. Thanks for the reply. "Certainly worth thinking about. It might find a place in the gap between folklore and fiction. I could see watching the move as a ritualistic act. " Never even saw it in that way at all. Don't get hung up on the MGM movie; I was thinking about the series analogous to a near death experience. Of course, if just talking the movie; Dorothy gets smoked in the head [dies] and then travels to a land to discover "the man behind the curtain", guided by her new friends who suspiciously look like her living ones .. IMO the whole thing is a parallel to a DMT trip, NDE, or Celtic Otherworld. Lots of people have already compared it to the Homer's Oddysey; quite extensively. The difference is of course, Oz is most definitely American. [Edit] Do a search for Bass Reeves, for example, the Lone Ranger may not be entirely fictional. FYI

[@IXINineIXI]

1 minute in, and I'm thinking of the blindfolded Lady Justice.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

Keep watching.

[@carlose4314]

There is a post-apocalyptic scenario called After the End (and After the End Fan Fork), which has a religion called Americanism.

[@Punishment90]

I have thought about this idea very often. Please do more videos on this idea. This feels like something American Pagans can develop that both ties us to our European roots and connects us to our homeland on a spiritual level.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

Thanks. The next one (I don't know when it will be posted) will be about the Ancestors, who I think may be the most important part of American Paganism. It's a good insight that an American Paganism could develop a connection between our European roots and America. Something to think about. Thanks.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

Oh, and don't wait for me, or rely on me. Think about it, work out rituals for and it do them. This is a group effort.

[@TheCreator901]

A follow up video with the roles of people like George Washington in such a system would be nice

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

I agree. I'm planning on that for my next video, with the working title "Towards an American Paganism: Ancestors and Heroes." I'm also planning on one about Land Spirits, and another on ritual.

[@jackalope2302]

I recall in an RPG supplement, there was an American Pantheon composed of Uncle Sam (government) and Columbia (culture) were the chief deities. Betsy Ross, Br'er Rabbit, John Henry, Johnny Appleseed, Paul Bunyan, Pecos Bill and Rosie the Riveter were lesser deities.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

I've never been able to take any of those (except Columbia) seriously as numinous figures, especially Uncle Same. I suppose Br'er Rabbit could be seen as a sort of Trickster, but not so much the other ones.

[@jackalope2302]

@@ceisiwrserith2224 Br'er Rabbit actually was an African trickster that the slaves carried with them to America.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

@@jackalope2302 Right, which was why I suggested it as a trickster figure. I'm not sure he would work as a sacred figure, though. The US has never given much weight to its folklore, even though it has a lot.

[@WildMen4444]

I'm surprised you didn't include George Washington in your hypothetical pantheon. He certainly could be seen as a divine hero at the very least with all the times he is literally depicted as such. Plus I've heard there is a Shinto shrine in Hawaii that has Washington enshrined as a kami so it would seem the 1st President already is a bonafide American God

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

I belong to Ar nDraiocht Fein, and we divide the numinous beings into the deities, the Ancestors, and the Nature Spirits. This video was about just the deities; Washington would fall into the Ancestor category. I'm thinking about making a video about the Ancestors; if so, I'll talk about him then. I think it's cool that there would be a shrine with Washington in it, but if I remember correctly, kami can be ancestors as well as gods. Perhaps Washington could be seen as a demi-god, raised to the heavens (as shown in the Apotheosis), like Hercules. He certainly would be the chief of the Ancestors.

[@TheLibran1]

@@ceisiwrserith2224 I stumbled quite by chance last week onto a video of "The Three Visions of George Washington". Interesting to think of how the Deities and Nature Spirits could be seen as interacting with a "Founding Ancestor" given a special mission. So far as early Americans where concerned, I recall some pictures where he is garbed up in then-contemporary tropes of MOSES. Remarkable given the somewhat closed canon concepts of American Protestantism - but still linking Washington and America to a sense of "Divine Mission". (Though closed canon remark does depend if we are talking about for example the radical pietists. Which got quite weird by mainstream standards of the time.)

[@WildMen4444]

@@ceisiwrserith2224 Kami can be both ancestors and Gods at the same time. Quite a few are. I would say that Washington is more than a mere ancestor. He's what we Greeks would call a hero at the very least if he isn't actually a God (which he might be). Larger than an ancestor but smaller than the Gods. It could arguably make more sense to categorize American deities by Greco-Roman categories since America takes so heavily from that part of the world in iconography so perhaps hero is truly the best place for Washington

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

@@WildMen4444 Yes, I could definitely see him in the hero category. If I make a video on ancestors I'll have to talk about that. You're right; Greek categories would make sense. Thanks for the suggestion.

[@otterwithagun1982]

I see him as more of a culture hero.

[@robgau2501]

I just found this channel and just earlier today I was thinking about this. Nice synchronicity. I love Lord of the Rings and I was remembering that Tolkien said one of his goals was to create a mythology for England. It just led naturally to this.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

Thanks. It seems like something that's in the air.

[@whatabouttheearth]

Tolkein simply synchronized elements of Celtic and Norse-Germanic mythologies. Feirys are variations of the Sidh which are varients of Tuath de Dannan, and Troll and elf type characters are across Europe. US symbolism is heavily Greco Roman witj the exception of Liberty which is most symbolically Anatolian Ekate with jer torch, most noticeable in the 'Hekate Chiarmonte' in Vatican Museum.

[@brandonteppelin6353]

Columbia, aka Lady Liberty. Uncle Sam. Coyote, the Native American trickster. Paul Bunyan, the Logger. Pecos Bill, the Gunslinger. Justice, the Blindfolded Lady of Law. They each represent an aspect of what makes America, America. Also, I also believe that Great Eagle, the penultimate idea of the hunting raptor, would fit as a "noble" animal for the Pantheon beyond the trickster in Coyote.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

I view some of those as deities, some as heroes, and some as folk figures. I think it's important to distinguish these categories, since they're traditionally related to in different ways. Deities are worshiped, heroes are honored, and folk figures have tales told about them as the main way of revering them.

[@greywolf2835]

Great video and very inspiring! I love the Triple-Goddesses of America. I might make an altar to the three.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

Thank you. When you sat "Triple-Goddesses of America," are you referring to Liberty, America, and Democracy? Nice idea; I never thought of them that way. I'm an Indo-European Pagan, rather than a Wiccan, so I wouldn't see them as the Wiccan Triple Goddess. But the number three is very important to Indo-Europeans, and America is an Indo-European country, so I like the idea of her having three main goddesses.

[@nickstebbens]

This is it. I propose we add a faction for the new children of the Aesir.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

What do you mean?

[@nickstebbens]

@@ceisiwrserith2224 more deities to accommodate the spirits of our race as we are now and will be.... Examples: Children of the Aesir & Valkyries signifying big data and wireless communication techs - cell towers held like staves Hell's Angels Running drugs like everyday's yesterday, shaking hands with a Shaman making music (think Led Zeppelin stylistic themes) Banking & Finance-Brokers personified as Loki's Son with Sleipnir (16 legs?) Young Frost Giants and Giantesses running machines in the manufacturing warehouses & HVAC Cowboy ethos holding up a barn and tractor they'll need proper names too, I'm just showing some present themes which deserve our recognition

[@arymoore88]

is there a group of people who are working on constructing an american pagan pantheon / religion? i’m very interested in this and been looking for something like this but this is the closest thing i’ve found to it

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

I don't know of a group specifically working on it. Within ADF there's an American Pagan special interest group which discusses these things, and I there is a grove in Colorado that works in a local/American tradition. There are also members who work in the American tradition. My own grove, in NH, celebrates Independence Day each year in an American Pagan style ritual. Maybe some of my videos will inspire people to work in this way. I'm planning on others, so let's see.

[@fabienlehenaff2742]

Here is France we have " La Marianne" she's kind of the equivalent of Lady Liberty and represents the Republic's values born out of the french revolution. As for the other gods they could apply to any modern western democracies in my opinion. As a much older country I wonder if we could include Charlemagne ( as a deified ancestor) , Joan of Arc, or even Vercyngetorix

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

I collect coins with images of Liberty on them, and I have some with La Marianne. They're lovely. A few years back, France put out a 10 franc coin with an image of the NYC Statue of Liberty on it which was lovely. Yes, many of the deities could apply to other western democracies, but I do think that America has put its own spin on them. I think that other countries have put their _own_ spin on them as well; one of the things about Paganism is that it's local, and deities are therefore slightly changed when worshiped by different cultures. America/Columbia is, of course, our own goddess, just as Britannia is the UK's, and the odd syncretism between Liberty, America, and Minerva make all of them very different in an American system than they would be in any any other. I didn't include divine ancestors on purpose - I may make another video on them, since there seems to be an interest - but the ones you mention make perfect sense. Throughout the Indo-European parts of Europe there were local deities and heroes/heroines, and honoring ones appropriate to individual countries or parts of countries would also make sense. It would be interesting to see more attempts to create a modern Paganism rather than recreating old ones - and this from a Proto-Indo-European Reconstructionist.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

By the way, thank you for your comment. I didn't know what kind to expect, and I definitely didn't expect any non-Americans to be interested. You point of view is a useful one. Do you know of anyone in your country who's been working on a French Paganism?

[@mattatm3227]

I have amassed quite a number of lady liberty coins mostly as a hedge against inflation which has worked very well as you have no doubt noticed

[@abhinavchauhan7864]

How accurate are the proto indo European words available on wikitonary?

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

Do you mean in the etymologies? I haven't looked at enough of them to know.

[@abhinavchauhan7864]

@@ceisiwrserith2224 yes. For example there is a Sanskrit word for fire: अग्नि (agni) The Wikipedia says proto indo European word for this is *h₁n̥gʷnís But i saw a video about proto indo European and in that video the word was *h₁egʷnís So which one is right

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

@@abhinavchauhan7864 The best source I can find it in is _The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European World_ by Mallory and Adams (2006), which gives it as *hxn̥gʷnís. The "x" should be subscript (how do you do that on youtube? Cut and paste didn't work) signifies and unknown laryngeal.

[@abhinavchauhan7864]

@@ceisiwrserith2224 what you mean cut and paste didnt work ? I didnt get it

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

@@abhinavchauhan7864 I tried to write the PIE word in a Word file and then cut and paste it to my reply, but all the diacritics got stripped out. So I did a cut and paste from your reply of *h₁n̥gʷnís, and everything came through, but when I replaced the 1 with an x, it wouldn't paste in as a subscript. Anyway, you probably know what I meant to say; the most reliable reconstruction is the one from Wikipedia, only with an unknown (x) laryngeal rather than laryngeal one (H1).

[@NeonDruid13]

America, Liberty, Minerva = Morrigan in a Celtic sense.

[@TheWarsuron]

that is incorrect , the Morrigan is a goddess of death, fate and majick minerva is a goddess of wisdom, justice, law, victory

[@NeonDruid13]

@@TheWarsuron you need to do more research and see how all of those are the same. Also, no, Morrigan is not the Goddess of MAGIC. Don't insult my mother.

[@TheWarsuron]

@@NeonDruid13 if it is from the same source that convinced you to label yourself as a druid , I think I will pass. Yes The Morrigan is a goddess of majick and the otherworld, fate and death. unlike minerva minerva has more in common with sulis and we know this because of the Roman merger with them both in the city of bath, hence sulis-minerva.

[@NeonDruid13]

oh,so you just want to argue even though you cleary have no idea what you'e talking about. enjoy your life. its going to be miserable. By the way. Its spelled MAGIC and its not real. Using a J and adding a K makes you look pretentious and exceptionally silly. Like when the band Korn used a K instead of a C but they knew they were being silly, you think you're being smart. We call MAGIC science now. Time to grow up and stop pretending to be Harry Potter.

[@TheWarsuron]

@@NeonDruid13 coming from the person who is pretending to be a druid lol no pretention on my part just stating a fact. ( the J was a misstype should have read magick). there is a reason Crowley spelt it differently. but we are getting into a whole different convo. the point about the Morrigan still stands you know who babd is? or how about macca?. or maybe nemain?

[@CassandraPantaristi]

Off topic, but will you ever make a second edition of "Deep Ancestors"?

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

Not likely. I have a file called _Deep Ancestors: Director's Cut_. As I research more, I've been putting in all the information I didn't have room for in the published version, and making changes where I think it's desirable. For instance, I now think that the Ancestors can be divided into three groups: the Heroes, the Fathers and Mothers, and the Company of the Dead. Unfortunately, this version is unpublishable -- I haven't even touched many of the chapters, and it's already three time as long as the published version. However, what's on my website corresponds to the Director's Cut version, so you can see some of the changes I've made. There's a lot more data on the deities, for instance, and I've made some changes to the basic sacrifice ritual. I'm afraid that's the closest I'll come to a second edition. Sorry.

[@CassandraPantaristi]

@@ceisiwrserith2224 May I see the uncut file?

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

@@CassandraPantaristi Sorry, its not ready for public viewing. And like I said, it's too long for publication. (I posted on your discussion page explaining more.)

[@CassandraPantaristi]

@@ceisiwrserith2224 Oh okay, I understand that. I have done research too, as to write my original Indo-European epic poem. It requires cross-referencing of the common elements found in descendant Indo-European religious and mythological texts. I then take the common elements and try to tell them as a Proto-Indo-European poets would. It's complicated to put together in the mind, but I'm passionate about it so it's going alright I think. 😄 I plan on self-publishing the poem, and having it in bilingual in English and the post-laryngeal Indo-European of Academia Prisca (Fernando López-Menchero and Carlos Quiles). But I know that you said that you avoid that. I thought about self-publishing it since I don't think that there would be a publisher who would publish it with the Indo-European language in it. I don't know, I'm not entirely sure though.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

@@CassandraPantaristi What I've seen of it is wonderful. There are three books that might help: _How to Kill a Dragon_, by Calvert Watkins; _Indo-European Poetry and Myth_, by M. L. West; and _A Theory of Textual Reconstruction in Indo-European Linguistics_, by Ranko Matasovic. They all discuss the structure of IE poetry. Matasovic also discusses metaphors and other standard expressions. If you check the discussion section on your page, you'll see some more information I've given you.

[@PrecariousPorcupine]

I need to know more about this religion. What rituals have you come up with? Have you written anything on this that I can read?

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

This is very much a work in progress. I made this video in large part because I was hoping to encourage other people to work on it too. I'm planning at least two more videos, on on the Ancestors, and one on Land Spirits. I have the script for the Ancestor ritual mostly written, and have given a lot of thought to ideas about the Land Spirits. As for rituals, I belong to a grove, which is a smaller group (like a congregation) within Arn nDaiocht Fein, a druidic organization (www.adf.org), and we celebrate Independence Day each year. ADF has what's called the "Core Order of Ritual," so there are things we have to do in order for it to count as an ADF ritual. Because of this, it's not necessarily purely an American ritual. Still, we thought long and hard about those parts of the ritual that are part of the COoR, to make them American. For instance, there's a part of ADF rituals called "the Waters of Life," where a drink is consecrated and shared as a return gift from the numinous beings. To make it American, we used Judaeo-Christian imagery, and made the Waters from milk and honey. But, at the suggestion of another of the members, the major part of it is story-telling and speechifying. You can contact me through my website, www.ceisiwrserith.com, and I'll send you the script. Other than that, I've written a bunch of prayers to American deities. Many of them have been published in my books on prayer; _The Big Book of Pagan Prayer_ contains all of the ones I've published. Here are some of them: Liberty, your torch shines undimmed by the years. If our eyes have lost sight of you, it is our fault and not yours. We have turned our vision away from the heights from which your flames shine, and seen only that which divides. Be our beacon, Mother of our nation, and show us the way again. Mother of Peoples, unite your scattered children into one tribe, one people, one country. Industry, you have made us strong. Commerce, you have made us rich. Agriculture, you have fed us well. War, you have defended our freedom. Peace, you have given us something to defend. Justice, you have enabled us to deserve all these. Liberty: with these we have built a home for you, and we ask you to co me live with us, continually reminding us of your gifts and your demands. I hope these are of some use to you, and that you are inspired to help develop an American Paganism. As is appropriate for a religion for an entire culture, it's something that needs to be done by members of that culture, not just one person.

[@PrecariousPorcupine]

@@ceisiwrserith2224 this is very helpful! Thank you so much!

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

@@PrecariousPorcupine Glad to hear it. And if you want to see the Independence Day ritual, you can send me an e-mail through my website.

[@gwenshin]

Seems sometimes the American goddesses are depicted as having male necks, jaws, shoulders and waistlines.

[@gandalffreyasson7409]

A subscriber to our Pagan newsletter shared this with me. Fascinating. ?Remember, many of the Founding Fathers not Christian, but Deist.

[@wendykleeb2071]

Some good ideas! Although my maternal grandfather's family has been I'm America since the 16th century, I still feel panthestic in my paganism. Actually, your choices are Greco-Roman, so I'm listening.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

Because the Founding Fathers were classically educated (as were all upper-class people of the time, and many of other classes), and because so much of the US system of government was based on the Greeks and Romans, classical deities are important in a US Paganism. However, also important are the deified abstractions, such as Agriculture, Industry, and Communication. (You have me beat; my ancestors on my father's side came over in the 17th century -- 1620, to be precise, since I have a lot of Pilgrims back there.)

[@NovaSaber]

Another American twist on an ancient deity is the fact that Mercury's Caduceus has become a symbol of medicine; probably by accident because someone got it mixed up with the Rod of Asclepius, but it's still stuck, though the rod of Asclepius is also still widely used.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

Yes, that's something that annoys me. Even the military uses it wrong.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

I wonder if the switch to Mercury's caduceus is a result of seeing him as a god of knowledge, and therefore medical knowledge. There could be a connection with perhaps Hermes Trimegestus, although I doubt those who started using it for medical doctors knew about him. Maybe it's just because it looks cooler. It's interesting that in the US Army and Air Force it's Askepios' caduceus that ends up on the _dentist's_ badge, and in the Air Force on the _veterinarians'_ badge. Why do those get it right, but the medical doctors get it wrong? It's especially odd in the Air Force, since they're all about wings, and the Mercury caduceus has wings. But you'd think that one of the branches would tell the other what the real one should be. The one you find on ambulances is the right one. (Interestingly, it's on a variation of the "H" rune, one associated with healing. This was a deliberate choice when the symbol was invented. I think the symbol was devised in Switzerland; I wonder if using the right caduceus is more common in Europe.) Chiropracty (they're not real medical doctors, but some are close) use a great emblem that's almost a combination of the two caduceuses. In sum, though, I wish the medical field would use the right one. I cringe a bit whenever I see the wrong one. Maybe I should just give up.

[@c-rex]

I think it's a hilarious accident of misplaced symbolism. Hermes is after all the god of commerce. And let's admit it.....American medicine is fundamentally commerce-driven.

[@adamstephens9043]

​@@ceisiwrserith2224 This is perhaps telling of the state of medicine. Hermes is also a trickster, right? And so much of our medical system is just that. Also, perhaps, Hermes' association with the economy, which has a far greater influence on the system than health does.

[@nisharajpoot1710]

Sir i have some question regarding linguistics can you responds

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

I'll try. I'm only an amateur when it comes to linguistics, and I mostly know historical linguistics, but I'll give it a shot.

[@nisharajpoot1710]

@@ceisiwrserith2224 thank you for answering sir. Sir can we translate rig vedic hyme to PIE and proto indo iranic Without losing its original form ?

[@nisharajpoot1710]

@@ceisiwrserith2224 sir ?

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

@@nisharajpoot1710 No, not without losing a lot. The Vedas are very complex linguistically, with strict meters, alliterations, etc., which are as much a part of them as the meanings of the words. For instance, there is a hymn to Vac in which her name isn't even mentioned, but the syllable "va" keeps recurring. You could translate them into PIE in the same way that you could translated them into English, but there wouldn't be much point. Better just write your own original hymns in PIE.

[@nisharajpoot1710]

@@ceisiwrserith2224 ok. Can you please translated a rig vedic hyme for me ? Rig ved 2.12 indra ? Just for fun nothing serious ?

[@Toddoss5875]

Any ideas on Uncle Sam?

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

I considered him. I know that other people who have been working on similar projects have included him among the deities, but I personally have troubles taking him seriously. His outfit and goatee just don't lend themselves to any sort of dignity or power. YMMV.

[@whatabouttheearth]

He would obviously be connected to the Magician and Woden the all father who is predominant im Seidr. But it is a post enlightenment rationalist political depiction not a deity, like the rest these are concepts and not tied to nature or any deeper elements not related to human civilization itself.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

@@whatabouttheearth I don't understand. Many of these are related to human civilization; off my head I can think of Minerva (who might be identified with civilization itself), Mercury/Commerce, and Industry. As for being tied to nature, these deities aren't intended to be; they are the deities of American idealism and other principles. (Although sovereignty goddesses like Liberty and America/Columbia are very much connected to the land.) Numina connected with nature will come in a future video, on Nature Spirits.

[@denisestarr2314]

Wonderfully done .

[@NeonDruid13]

My Brother, we need to work together and spread the word.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

I would certainly like more people working in this area. I'm using these videos (one should be up soon) to "spread the word."

[@אליהברזל-ק3ק]

תעשה סרטון על תאומים סיאמיים בן ובת (תאומים סיאמיים גבר ואישה)

[@johannesl6978]

I ADOORE this idea!

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

Thanks. A bunch of people have had it, and I hope we can all do our bit to make it into something.

[@johannesl6978]

Unfortunately I can’t be part of this. I am a swedish heathen who identify mainly with the norse gods and myths. I will however wish you american pagans luck in your development of an AMERICAN paganism.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

@@johannesl6978 Thanks.

[@jamesofcolumbia]

I think America already had a distinctly American Paganism. I would know. The problem is that after the Colonial period, Christianity really asserted itself and America somehow became a "non-Christian Christian Country?"

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

Could you elaborate? I don't see any Paganism in the Colonial period (except for that of the American Indians, of course, and some of them may object to their religions being called "Paganism"). Instead, I see an aggressive and even militant Christianity, with the exception of Freethinkers and Deists, like Franklin and Paine. I don't think we can take Thomas Morton (www.americanheritage.com/maypole-merry-mount) as a Pagan; he seemed to be more interested in trade and revelry than religion, even f he did make friends with the Indians. In fact, the allegories that I want to identify with actual deities were, with a few exceptions such as America and perhaps Minerva, became most prominent after the Revolution. So could you give me more explanation of your position that there was a Colonial era Paganism? It would be interesting to see if it could be blended into an American Paganism.

[@forestjohnson7474]

Awesome video.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

Thanks.

[@TheLibran1]

Hows your book coming!

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

Which book? The one I'm working on now is one on ritual, with the working title "Ritual Theory, Ritual Performance."

[@TheLibran1]

@@ceisiwrserith2224 YAAAAS, that one! :)

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

@@TheLibran1 Still a few years away, alas. It's taking a lot more research than I'd thought.

[@TheLibran1]

@@ceisiwrserith2224 Definitely alas. I find Ritual Theory very engaging and a perfect interdisciplinary nexus for a descriptive mechanism for occultism but the existing works.... Well lets just say I would rather gouge my eyes out than suffer Catherine Bell anymore!

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

@@TheLibran1 Lol. Have you tried Roy Rappaport? He can be difficult, but very insightful. Have you seen my video with book recommendations on ritual theory? I keep meaning to do another one, but most of the books I've been reading for my research are descriptions of rituals, theatre, dance, and the like, so I don't know if I have enough saved up. But maybe soon.

[@thelonelyarrikirri4575]

Do Australia next!

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

As an American, I'm not qualified.

[@sofijaradakovic328]

What about the bods of the native people

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

It's a difficult question. In general, it's a bad idea for non-Indian Americans to adopt Indian gods. The tribes get pissed. I'll eventually do a video on Land Spirits in which I'll deal with the question. But here I was dealing with those deities that are specifically American.

[@CassandraPantaristi]

@@ceisiwrserith2224 I'm part Native American (Blackfoot and Cherokee), but I don't really have any interest in worshiping Native American deities.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

@@CassandraPantaristi Then an American Paganism of the type I'm talking about here (and will be talking more about in the future) would be appropriate for you. This isn't exclusive of other forms of Paganism, of course; it's perfectly OK to worship in more than one tradition.

[@CassandraPantaristi]

@@ceisiwrserith2224 Oh I know there's polytheists who worship multiple traditions, but personally I don't. But I find polytheism interesting no matter the tradition. :) I find the influence of the African Yoruba religion on later religions of Palo Mayombe, Santería and (and to an extent) Voodoo really interesting.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

@@CassandraPantaristi Yes, the Afro-Caribbean religions are fascinating. I don't work with any myself because they're initiatory (and I'm not exactly equipped for dealing with possession by a loa), but I've studied them some, partly because of their own interest, and partly because of research for a book I'm writing on ritual.

[@johannesvonmalos7505]

i feel the natives had something like that

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

They had religions for their own cultures, which it would be inappropriate for someone like me to adopt, or even adapt. What I'm interested in something appropriate for the majority culture, which has its own identity, and therefore should have its own religion.

[@ironheart6704]

The american paganism is fomented by the small hats. They didn't forgot their babylonian symbols.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

Huh

[@whatabouttheearth]

To conflate Greco-Roman architecture and paganism is a bit overboard and it conflation. It is also not wise to conflate nationalism, patriotism, politicalism and regionalism, ancient dieties developed organically and did not originate from political elements. This is wrong headed at best and leaning towards modern symbolism. Liberty is obviously Hekate, 7 crown rays and Pelius/Phrygian cap is Hekate, as Trivia/Enodia was the protector of paths and cross roads. The hermaphroditic elements in tje Mercury Dime and Statue of Liberty is obvious, Hermaphrodites is the child of Hermes and Aphrodite in mythology. Your not getting the deeper astronomical elements of the seal symbols Those are not really deities, they are depictions of the spirit of enlightenment rationalism. Minerva like Hermes-Mercury is wisdom.

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

Please enlighten me as to the astronomical elements. The only ones I see are stars, and those are directly connected with the flag, and often the order in which a state entered the Union. I don't see a hermaphroditic element in the Statue of Liberty, and even if I did, all the other images I showed of her are definitely female, some even nude. In Roman iconography, the Liberty/Phrygian cap is associated with Liberty, not Hekate, who is a Greek goddess anyway. I agree that these are "depictions of the spirit of enlightenment." But they can certainly be treated as deities as well, especially Liberty, who is depicted in some early art in a temple to her. The Romans had no problems with divinizing principles -- Virtue, Honor, etc. -- and neither should we. Some of the ancient Pagan deities didn't develop organically, but were established for a particular purpose, especially those of principles.

[@CassandraPantaristi]

It's common in classical polytheism for concepts to be deified as Beings, personifications. For example Pax is the goddess of Peace.

[@erstanden3637]

Aight time to cull the Pagans from Gods good earth again

[@ceisiwrserith2224]

Well that's not very nice.

[@WildMen4444]

Come and get me, pal. Name the time and place and we'll settle things like men.

[@MushroomFarmersGuild]

I'm so down. Lady Liberty, and Uncle Sam. Shown in any and all races. The circle is the dome of heaven. The square are the 4 corners of the Earth. The 4 winds, the 4 cardinal directions based on true north, and magnetic north.