Toxic femininity?

Antonia Romeo (c), Louise Perry, Joanne Cash, and Inaya Folarin Iman on surfing the many waves of feminism

[@steffihaas7490]

re: 1st question It's horrifying that grown men and women, possibly parents, don't know anymore that it is not only okay to make rules for children and teenagers that are different from the rules for adults, but that it is THEIR DUTY to do so. No matter what the intention of the question was, he could not understand that treating children and teenagers as children and teenagers has nothing to do with free speech. End times, seriously.

[@theroadsnearyou...5088]

I used to think Feminism was anti-male, however, in recent years I’ve come to realise the it’s also anti-female as well! Can someone please tell who Feminism actually benefits?

[@Muslimah1987]

the ideologues in ivory towers earning obscene amounts of money for coining and teaching increasing lunatic 'theories' under the guise of intellectual pursuit/justice.

[@zoltesduras6425]

Feminism today = sacrificing everything and everyone, whenever necesary and by all means necesary, only to make sure of the comfort of adult women alive now.

[@joejoejoejoejoejoe4391]

Feminists.

[@Zodroo_Tint]

The leaders. Always the leaders benefit from an ideology.

[@templekanu6740]

Feminism benefits the radical feminist. Those who do not want to have children, marriage and are after corporate attainments. Those are the only benefactors of feminism. Unfortunately, humans are like herds. We like to follow trends without personal leadership which has led to disastrous outcomes. The moral and sexual degeneracy of today stems from unquestioned feminism. Thank God there was a push back on me too, countless Men would have destroyed by vindictive Women far worse than it is today

[@wolfofthewest8019]

Though I have to say, for a discussion of toxic femininity, they didn't even once broach the topic. Here's an example of toxic femininity: A woman notices a problem in the world, such as the "pink tax." She notices that women's razors cost more than men's razors. Her solution to this problem is to *demand men do something about it,* rather than do something about it herself. It's shocking how often women don't even consider taking action themselves. (Another example of this is women complaining about the lack of interest in women's sports, by which they always mean that MEN have a duty to support women's sports, not that THEY have a duty to support women's sports.) Another example: A man approaches a woman and propositions her. Rather than reject him honestly, she invents a reason she can't return his interest, which is lying. Later, when confronted about her lying, she insists that she is justified in dishonesty because "the man might murder her" or some other absurd, ridiculous assertion. Her irrational, unreasonable fears become a free pass for all manner of unethical behavior. Another example: A woman accepts a man's invitation to dinner, knowing she has no interest in him, just to get a free meal. Or, worse, because she's attracted to one of his friends and wants to use this man to leapfrog onto his friend (I've had two different women do that to me, it's a really shitty way to treat men). These are toxic behaviors that stem from femininity. It includes an entitlement to men's time, energy and effort. It includes an entitlement to use irrational fears to justify any behavior she wants. It includes treating men as objects to be used and manipulated to her own ends, without a thought for the man she's manipulating's feelings. That's real toxic femininity, and no woman wants to talk about it or acknowledge it. Because the most offensive idea in the world to most women is that they are not perfect as they are and could be a better person.

[@mukavelli]

''Feminist'' ideology started before 1800s, the envy and hate towards men that fueled the start of this movement is still present to this day, even though now is 80% Marxism/Hegelianism and 20% hate/envy. Through all these years men have only given them what they asked for, without men there would be no feminism, feminism exists because men allow it, the ungratefulness is disgusting. All these ''achievements'' under Feminism that they brag about, they are not really accomplished by them, vote? Given. Security of the world? Given, office jobs? Given. The pill? Given. Quotas and special treatment to enter the workforce? Given. The school catered towards girls? Given, at the expense of boys, special laws of divorce/custody/killing other humans/sentences to benefit women? Given, accommodate all public/private spaces for women? Given. What did they with all of this? Stripped womanhood of any meaning by trying to act upon that envy of the man, every day lived they strive to become more like men, leaving femininity and womanhood to die, and the world with it, ostracizing men in the process. We have always catered to women, to protect, provide and help them make their life easier, and yet we are the source of all their problems. Every 70-80 years the western countries populations shrinks with 20% or more, imagine if everyone on the planet would adopt and act on this feminist culture (or should I say the western women's culture), in a few hundred of years there will be no us here, the nerve to tell us that their way is the best way to live life. But remember this, everything they have accomplished was GIVEN, and the future doesn't look too bright, once sex robots and artificial wombs become available, remember we live in a material world not in an abstract social construct, and men have monopoly on physical violence, rules are kept as long everyone playing has a fair game experience, keep bashing and demonizing the other sex, and you will find out what real oppression looks like.

[@parrotshootist3004]

They're not going to start on that.

[@billyd1436]

I'd say these are examples of the subtle influence of "woman as victim", which stems from the. subtle influence of "men as perpetrator". These simplistic formulations are examples of black and white thinking. A more whole, and indeed accurate version of the world as it is, comes from nuanced thinking that sees causes and conditions, circumstances... it is critical thinking that evolves deeper points of view. Statistics are increasingly indicating that women are just as capable of abuse as men, and yet the dominant feminist narrative won't let that in the room. If we want to end sexual and domestic violence we have to tackle the nature of power, and power is not gender specific.

[@annabelnicholls]

I totally agree this is not a discussion about toxic femininity. I would also say that if you are going to have a discussion, then surely you should have a range of opinions. While I have a great deal of respect for these women, I would say that they generally agree on most of the issues raised. It would have been more interesting if they had had someone with opposing views also.

[@elizabethowen8559]

What makes you think a woman has used you to get a free meal? Because she didn’t want to sleep with you after? Maybe she decided you had a vile personality and we’re rude to the wait staff 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@wolfofthewest8019]

Louise Perry's comments about Silicon Valley execs not giving their children smart phones reminds me of a story my mom likes to tell. She worked in advertising in the 80s and 90s as a copywriter, and while working for a major firm she got to work with Phillip Morris, the cigarette manufacturer. The campaign called for a photoshoot of a male model smoking as he overlooked a pristine valley from the side of a mountain, very manly stuff. At the time she smoked. The model also smoked, as did the photographer. All of them were winded by the time they reached the shoot site, and my mom notice none of the Phillip Morris people were smoking. So she expressed surprise that none of them smoked. One of the execs looked her right in the eye, smiled, and said "Smoking is for idiots and n*gg*rs."

[@etsequentia6765]

Well... that was... straight and to the point.

[@Zodroo_Tint]

It doesn't surprise me. I know it can banned me but there was this jewish guy who grew up as a kid in the 50's and 60's among non-jews and there was many early homosexual influence where he lived, It was somewhere close to New York so it was a big city. One day he pointed to a flyer or something and told to a rabbi "Can you believe this?" and the rabbi said "Ah, it is for them." (the goyim). He also told they heard about the holocaust only in the late 60's. He is one of those D ny ER. I'm not, I think the holocaust was real and it was the biggest tragedy in the history of mankind, this is what I believe. They can put me in the prison if I don't.

[@youtubeyoutube936]

How about calling out female toxicity and misandy in the family courts where women allege abuse

[@jacobmyer7520]

Fantastic panel, a lot of real reasoning and honesty, much less ideology. Awesome listen.

[@EricThePioneer]

Btw the title of this video is more about the people on the stage than the conversation they have. Just to save you some time.

[@steffihaas7490]

Joanne Cash and Louise Perry speak about many relevant issues in a nuanced and realistic way. It's interesting to remember that they come from very liberal and very much Left-wing backgrounds. What literally grounded them was pregnancy and being a mother. I think there is a connection. Being on the Left means being utopian in some capacity, it means you are very much in your head, maybe even in the clouds, but you are rarely in your body. So, as a mother you learn to negociate between your needs and the needs of others. You value compromise more and you are more absent from bad cultural influences since you are busy with family and your own life. Unless you go online, then you'll find women who are very much at the other end of the spectrum. So it's a real shame that the moderator doesn't seem to have done much preparation in terms of meaningful questions or the art of actual moderation. In the beginning she leads the discussion away from very relevant topics and from two of the three debaters bringing their research and knowledge together, which is actually what the moderator's job should be all about. So they are basically doing her job and she is cutting in. I mean... Not even ten minutes in and the third participant tries to derail the debate. Why? Because in an opening statement the women in Iran and an American decision on the basis of their constitution were as or more important. And, of course, the moderator picked it up. That's the problem in a nutshell. Look at your own society and the problems for ALL women and children there! There is more than enough to keep every activist, theoretician and organisation occupied. Stop meddling in foreign countries and advocating for women whose lives you don't know. Btw, this behaviour is what you would call the ugly word. The third participant really doesn't have much valuable insight. She doesn't dare say it here, but she wants equality of outcome. She wants to have the cake and eat it too. She needs to grow up. Quite frankly, she is a bad faith actor here. If one has an agenda, he/she needs to be honest about it and lay out the details. Then people can contest his/her views in a civil debate. This is just deceitful and in very bad taste.

[@lolalala00]

You summed up my thoughts exactly! Third speaker was a disappointment

[@orneryoverwatch7031]

Yeah at least in the U.S. it's noticeable that once a woman becomes a mother, more often than not, she becomes more right leaning. I think that is part of the reason why our media tries to paint motherhood as "servitude" and bash it at every turn... in an effort to keep us all single, atomized and reliant on gov't.

[@Discussion4Peace]

Pin comment so more can see this

[@danielkempton9659]

I waited 3 years as a man, till we got married. Funnily enough My wife struggled with this more than I. My advice to women and was to my daughter, wait. If the dude won't wait, be single. Period.

[@johnchapman6446]

You're a far better man than I am. Kudos to you my friend.

[@danielkempton9659]

To be really honest John, I'm weak but he is strong. Tip of the cap to you.

[@Searchingfortruth880]

It would be nice to have panels with différent view points instead of 4 persons nodding together for 1 hour 30 min

[@tomwright9904]

56:00 Perry on free speech. Hmm, I really dislike this viewpoint, it just feels "power infused". Yes the motivation for free speech can be because you are losing, no this doesn't mean that free speech exists only for this reason and we shouldn't forget the value of the general principle because we can find some motivation. The concept that all our institutions should be captured by ideologies and fight one another is similarly problematic. It damages the institutions.

[@ribbonsofnight]

She says things that make me think it's when rather than if on her realising the power of freedom of speech.

[@StillLookingforTruth]

This discussion has very little to do with the title. It's more a discussion about the threats to women/girls and the challenges they face in a modern society.

[@Zodroo_Tint]

What a surprise.

[@Searchingfortruth880]

Why was the panel called Toxic Féminity ?

[@ribbonsofnight]

What a clickbait title. I guess the question mark indicates they don't know what the title should be.

[@GodsOwnPrototype]

It's almost like the very invention and mass production of affordable labour saving goods like the marigolds, the washing machine, the dishwasher aren't recognised or appreciated by women as a great contribution by men to that 2nd shift & enabling women's participation in the 1st shift. Now I think it perfectly reasonable for keeping a clean & tidy environment to be an equal expectation of both sexes* but mixing childcare into this equal expection as if it's the same is a mistake. I'm still yet to hear women that complain about having to do apl or most the laundry forst declaring that they make a point of taking out the rubbish half the time & doing half the domestic DIY shifting, fixing & maintenance tasks.

[@richardblinn4811]

Seems to me that. for the most part, this discussion and the views they espoused, will on balance, only continue to make things worse. The panel has a very very long way to go, and with them the whole of Western Culture has a long way to go to reverse our long descent into an ever depending morass.

[@annabelnicholls]

This was a very interesting discussion by 3 very intelligent and accomplished women. However, this is a misleading title to say the least. It was poorly moderated imo. The actual subject was not properly raised until 32 minutes in to a 45 minute discussion and then was almost immediately lost by all the panelists without the moderator bringing them back on topic. The moderator said everyone in the room might have a different view of what it is. That is partly because the phrase is not in the dictionary. Put it into google and it says it is behaviour that reflects gender based stereotypes. Put in toxic masculinity and it discusses negative masculine traits. Why the difference? That would have been an interesting question. Toxic femininity is essentially the same for women. Misogyny goes hand in hand with toxic masculinity whereas misandry was not mentioned once and this is very much a real thing, something I see everywhere in the public and private spheres these days but is never called out. It would have been much more interesting to have had a man on the panel but what man would have had the guts to do that? I don't know that even Jordan Peterson would have taken that on. The discussion could have started just with the issue of definition. The moderator even suggested that Toxic Femininity might be something that was invented by the patriarchy, utterly ridiculous...what like toxic masculinity was invented by feminists?? I can see some issues had that been stated by anyone. There were some really interesting points raised and discussed but not on topic at all. At one point Joanne Cash stated that her husband drove faster than her 'He's been trying to slow down for 15 years, he's not quite there yet, bless him'...if the same sentence were said by a man about his wife, I am sure there would a bit of consternation about that being potentially patronising to a woman. This is not to take anything away from what she said as she had some great points, well made but women so often don't see the opposite side of the coin. Yes, we need to have more discussion amongst women and men but more than that, we need more self reflection, something I think women find difficult. And a final point (off topic)...tech companies are able to censor so much partly because parents have outsourced their monitoring of what children watch to them. Adults should be able to watch what they like. The answer is not to censor adults but to somehow not allow children to view everything they can.

[@cheryl5667]

Question for Louise: Where do you recommend finding a husband who doesn't consume porn? Also, do you think any secular man is willing to wait until marriage? Every man I give sex to, no matter how close I think we are, eventually leaves once he gets what he wants but also loses interest if he knows I will make him wait until marriage. It has now been 4.5 years since I've had intercourse. What is the formula or solution?

[@charlieweaver6322]

Why would a secular man wait until marriage? Also, why would a man wait until marriage, knowing that you've had sex with other men in the past without being married? Not trying to be antagonistic, I just think you need to consider the man's position in this.

[@cheryl5667]

@@charlieweaver6322 The whole point of opposing 'liberal feminism' for the benefit of women seems to be that women being free to be sexual isn't to our advantage, instead of holding sexually exploitative men accountable, as if a feminist forced him to consume porn, or something. I completely agree with you. No secular man seems to be willing to wait until marriage. It seems that secular men still will not respect women if she has sex with him (IE she still needs to withhold sex from him because 'why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free') which is what I feel like Louise Perry's argument is, nor will he wait for her after falling in love with her. I can't even get a guy to wait to be in a relationship with me, and when we do have sex he's like 'meh, I got what I wanted'. Women are damned if we do or don't and still get blamed for men's sexual use of us, I feel.

[@cheryl5667]

@@charlieweaver6322 But to answer your second question, it is because I would explain to my partner that I never want my name written on a men's bathroom stall. I've only ever been used and tossed by men I was in love with, who I wanted a beautiful experience with, but they had no interest in a relationship. I will never allow that to happen again.

[@cheryl5667]

@@charlieweaver6322 So if men still think that I owe them sex because I've had it before even though I haven't had sex in over four years because I don't want to be used again (which men constantly try to do in culture, as we know) then he can fuck off :)

[@charlieweaver6322]

@@cheryl5667 I don't know what country you're from, or what the dominant religion is, but if it's Christianity have you tried going to church? You might have better luck, but you will probably also have certain expectations of what you need to do as a wife? I have to ask though, why do you even want a husband? What do you think a husband's role is, and what do you think a wife's role is?

[@cheryl5667]

I also agree that there may be ways to raise strong gentlemen who also love and honour their wives and would be happy to save a woman however he can without resentment while also not wanting us as concubines and respect the fact that it is our sovereign birthright not just to be safe from male violence, but also to be free to pursue an optimal quality life of the mind of our choosing... but we are not men, so we don't know how they think, and I suspect we would be terrified, if we did. All we know is that culture and law influence one another, and ultimately, men are the ones who make the choices that they do.

[@WhizzingFish12]

Serious question: In all of these conversations it's always how men have to change, behave, etc. What/where are the women's responsibilities, change needs, etc? This isn't a gotcha, but I hear all the time about "toxic masculinity" but NEVER hear anything about "toxic femininity," which definitely exists. Studies show that women are just as aggressive as men - they just express it relationally instead of physically. And more manipulative as a whole. I don't mean it in the ugly context, but rather about the conscious "shaping" of others, situations, etc to one's personal benefit. Not attacking, but think of how many times you've heard women talking about how they were going to change/"improve" their man, but how furious they get if their man tried the same thing.

[@cheryl5667]

@@WhizzingFish12 LOL we're just as aggressive hey? What are those studies? I guess we should just go ahead and merge prisons, hey? That's something the trans cult would love. Women are different from men in ways such as: 1. There are no brothels of trafficked men being sold to women for sexual demand. 2. There are no boys being sold to older women for marriage 3. The sex industry could never survive from womens' demand, which is why Playgirl failed. 4. The majority of violent crimes such as homicide, armed robbery and sexual assault are absolutely committed by men, because they want to. What world are you living in? Considering the escalation of violent porn that men and boys are demanding, there always has to be female voices speaking out to contrast it, because due to the nature of men, disproportionate male violence is possible anywhere and everywhere in the world.

[@WhizzingFish12]

@@cheryl5667 LOL Re-read my response. I didn't say "physically violent" (although the stats on domestic violence may surprise you - there's no shortage of female domestic abusers). I said "aggressive" which can manifest itself in many different ways. Males tend towards physical aggression, while with females it's typically relational (exclusion, gossip, reputation destruction, etc). Were you never a middle school girl? This is well-documented and not really disputed by social scientists or psychologists. It's easy to look up yourself if you don't believe me. Re the rest of your long rant, there's plenty of toxic male behaviors, no doubt. Now list the female ones. I can help out if you'd like.

[@cheryl5667]

@@WhizzingFish12 Yeah, there are abusive women and yes girls can be very mean... when did I ever say or suggest that that was not possible?

[@WhizzingFish12]

@@cheryl5667 You conflated "aggression" with "violence" in your response to me. Look, I am a pretty traditional person - I believe the genders are equal but not the same. I believe that healthy masculinity (and femininity) is a good thing. I see lots of toxicity on both sides, not just male, as both are being programmed/pressured to go against their biology, which is leading to massive rates of anxiety/depression and increasing social disintegration. I am a feminist in the sense that women should be equal in every way - both rights AND responsibilities. I assume you are supportive of 50/50 custody in a divorce, for example? And that women should also register for the draft? And that women's sentences for crimes should be the same as men's? And that women should demand that they are equally represented in the shitty/hard jobs, not just the plush ones? I can go on and on. And that I think that our society in many ways has the worst of both worlds right now. I'm happy to have a discussion but not an angry one with some stranger on the internet.

[@dieseldan5189]

Zero discussion about toxic femininity. Obviously a click bait title. I hate that.

[@parrotshootist3004]

Porn isn't grooming girls away from girlhood, several hours Monday to Friday.

[@bensanderson7144]

55:40. Thank god I live in the USA 🇺🇸. I will go so far as to say free speech is like water to me; I need it.

[@Zodroo_Tint]

One day you will wake up! :)

[@ribbonsofnight]

USA haws laws protecting speech against government. The power of big businesses show that USA has about the same protection of the principle of free speech as the rest of the world.

[@cheryl5667]

Perry's criticism of 'The Sexual revolution' isn't very clear. Is she criticizing sexual exploitation, most often synonymous with the 'revolution' of Hefner, Flynt et al? If so, good, but I haven't heard her men's role in what is clearly to their benefit, regardless of how unethical it is to use women for sex, which they seem to know - the suggestion seems to be that it is women's responsibility to withhold sex - an equally damning ideology. Is it insinuating that women having the choice to marry an abusive man or not, which draws in Jordan Peterson's audience who resent women's liberation, and puts the onus of 'society's downfall' all on women having this choice?

[@balancer182]

Perry's criticism of the sexual revolution is that before feminism tore down the walls of the past, old fashioned christian values of no sex before marriage actually BENEFITTED women's well being by protecting them from the ravages of hookup culture. It was feminism who told women that they could behave like men and have as much sex as you want, not the Catholic Church. So it is only right that feminism is to blame for causing this. And now as a result of it, women suffer from this hookup culture, because women are not men, they are not built for meaningless sex. They suffer low self esteem and like you, they wonder why the men they slept with didn't call them back after they got what they wanted. They feel worthless and used. Women cannot dissociate sex and emotions like men. But it's not abusive simply because you made a bad decision. Welcome to hookup culture, it's a one night stand, not a "I will marry you simply because you had sex with me" stand. This is why Perry recommended you withhold sex, because it will weed out men who only want to use you, and keep the ones who want a serious relationship. You cannot tell men to like you when they don't, just as how men cannot tell you to like them.

[@cheryl5667]

@@balancer182 Women using men for sex on one night stands? Perhaps in an 'if you can't beat em, join em' way after we've been used and think that we can reinstate some dignity, but never have I ever seen a brothel of men being sold to women. You say yourself that women are not built that way, so I don't know why you think we would actually use men for sex. The entire reason why she is saying that the sexual revolution is not good for women is because it primarily refers to sexual exploitation which bleeds out onto the lives of all women whether or not we have the means to escape prostitution. Men treat us like prostitutes and there's nothing WE can do about that except appear crazy to them when we withold sex, which takes all of the joy out of sex for women because then you are left constantly wondering if you've made him wait long enough or if he will call you a whore.

[@cheryl5667]

@@balancer182 If it is not beneficial to women, we can deduce that it is not feminist. Forcing women to marry, burning us at the stake and preventing lesbian unions are also not good for us (what feminism was countering from Patriarchal religiosity).

[@cheryl5667]

@@balancer182 It is to the beneifit of Hefner, Flynt, Guccione and their brethren to usggest that women enjoy being whores and 'having sex like men'. It's almost the first thing I hear from men defending their own porn use when I tell them from a feminist stance that porn is violence against women. They say 'Women watch porn too'. Just to justify their actions. Even if women sleep around or consume sexual exploitation, it's bad for US, not men, so why would it be 'feminist'? It isn't. There are fools in every party and people who will slap 'feminist' onto things incorrectly. Tomi Lahren is pro-choice. Are all Conservatives pro-choice? It's phenomenal to me that feminism must be without any fault in the eyes of onlookers and everyone is so determined to hate the safety and liberation of women that they blame male violence on women who advocate against it.

[@cheryl5667]

@@balancer182 'it will weed out men who only want to use you'. Why are you too cowardly to hold men who want to use us accountable? Pathetic.

[@blessedglasgow7548]

🌸🍯🐝🦾🇺🇸

[@kylelangton2718]

Female no sense

[@chairmakerPete]

Won all the rights and legal freedoms. Still not happy 🤷🏻‍♂️