Toxic labs: what to do if you're in a toxic lab.

[@mrillig]

This is the third video in the little 3-part series on toxic labs. I hope you find it useful if your are in such a difficult situation. The other videos: Toxic labs part 1 (what are they and why you should avoid them): kzbin.info/www/bejne/jIa7q2x7f7J0mNE Toxic labs part 2 (how to spot them during the interview and afterwards): kzbin.info/www/bejne/ioe7nGWeitRop6M Please leave a comment if you would like to share something on this topic, from your own experience or otherwise. Thanks!

[@placaA]

Thank you for the helpful video! After watching, I'm much more confident about the decision leave a toxic lab. I was given a strong recommendation to a toxic lab by my undergraduate advisor. After 6 month working there, I was fed up and decided to withdraw. Life is not easy working with a toxic PI, along with a senior peer with tendency to bullying and sexual harassment, even though other peers in lab are really nice......that atmosphere just hurt productivity and mental health so much.

[@mrillig]

I am sorry you had to go through such an experience; this is not fair. I hope you find a better lab environment, and I believe you made the right decision to leave these circumstances. All the best for you!

[@andyzhang3595]

My girlfriend gets a same problem now，and she already be there 2 years. In the beginning, the current members told her, this was not a good supervisor. But she did not feel that, until now, she knew the real problem with the PI. The PI performed like an actor. In beginning, they seems be very nice. However, after long time communication, they are Not. Finally,she decided to go because if keep staying she will be crazy! I think every new PI should watch this video and try to avoid toxic lab

[@mrillig]

Thanks for writing. Sorry your girlfriend had to go through this. I think it is an important point to bring up that there can be 'acting' by the PI, and that one should be aware of this possibility; this of course makes spotting toxic PIs more complicated.

[@Paul-kl2mn]

Thank you sir. You just summed up and gave the most honest picture.

[@mrillig]

thanks!!

[@mihirtrivedi8492]

The fear of recommendations is a major reason people are afraid to talk against their PIs. Academic systems also propogates this hierarchy by asking for recommendations and judging candidates based on them. Eligibility of a doctoral or a postdoctoral candidate should be judged by their work and skillset, rather then what others think about them.

[@mrillig]

I agree. Recommendations are not always as important in every country. For professor positions in Germany, for example, there are no recommendation letters (not that the process here is perfect, but this is one difference to other countries, like the US).

[@Paul-kl2mn]

Bulls eye! PI not only doesn't help but also prevents others from helping.

[@jameelabduljalil25]

I think the problem of "toxic PIs" will not be solved except by the funding bodies. If they had some sort of "jerky score" for every PI, then the number of toxic PIs will decrease in the academic/research sector because of lack of fund.

[@mrillig]

I agree. Not so easy to do, since who will award the 'toxic score' and based exactly on what criteria. But I also think this is the only way.

[@jameelabduljalil25]

@@mrillig If I am the person in-charge of a funding agency, I would randomly pick 10 individuals who did their PhD or post-doc in the lab of the PI in question. Contacting these individuals with a 3-minute mouse-click assessment questionnaire about their experience with that PI.

[@palpoulina]

Amazing insight. I was one of the lucky ones who had an amazing PI.

[@mrillig]

Thanks! There are many excellent people out there, but sadly also bad apples.

[@JulioThurler868]

Great video, Dr. Rillig. Very helpful tips!

[@mrillig]

Thank you!!

[@tabindazaren5936]

Good effort I wish I would aware of this many years before

[@mrillig]

Thanks!

[@wonderfulnature2070]

I wish I would have such type of information back in 2019.

[@mrillig]

Thanks for writing. I hope you're in a better environment now....

[@wonderfulnature2070]

@@mrillig During my Ph.D. journey, I passed through extreme problems due to the toxicity of my PI, other students were also not happy with him. I reported my case (supported with evidence) to the executive director of the institution, and that was a good decision. Now I am waiting for my publication to defend my Ph.D. I didn't leave the lab as soon as I understand that the PI is toxic, that was the biggest mistake I made in my life. Of course, I learned lots of lessons from it.

[@mrillig]

@@wonderfulnature2070 Glad it worked out for you in the end despite the toxic lab environment.

[@p13mgw]

Dear professor following your advice I found myself in that toxic situation as a postdoc and I got out after a year. Now, my issue is applying for new positions. How can you handle this if this toxic influence your new path ?? :( It's so annoying when you get great opportunities but ruined later on "mysteriously"... dealing with a powerful PI that is like that is impossible mission

[@mrillig]

This is indeed a problem, as I mention in the video. First of all, you still did the right thing to get out of this situation. How to deal with the PI's influence is quite hard and depends on many things, like how powerful they really are, how far their reach is, how much of a bad actor they are (how far are they willing to go), or how well this toxic behavior is known in their field. The best you can do is to be open; but it is very tricky to navigate this situation.

[@RosamundP]

Thank you for the video. Unfortunately, I have experienced a similar lab environment, which I think, at least partly, significantly extended the duration of my PhD. The lab culture and my PI’s behavior caused great confusion and made me regret pursuing a PhD, to the point where I thought of leaving academia numerous times. I found collaborators outside of my lab for the project and that is what made me continue until now when I am almost finishing it. I’ve found a postdoc position I want to apply, I’m wondering if it’s appropriate to mention these challenges in my motivation letter as part of the reason for the extended PhD timeline?

[@mrillig]

Thanks for writing. It's tricky, and sorry this happened to you. My advice would be to leave this out of the motivation letter, since you don't want to send any negative vibes at that particular stage. Maybe turn it into a positive if you can, without specifics, like "I overcame challenges during the project by forging successful collaborations with xyz". Good luck with your application.

[@RosamundP]

@@mrillig Thank you very much for taking the time to offer your advice and kind words. Wishing you all the best with your research and other endeavors!

[@ummehanihassi4513]

I have mixed feelings about my PI. Let's say, I have freedom of work in the lab, but when I would ask for external lab visit or making collaboration with external sources, or networking; it was not very appreciated and often negatively criticised. It was happened not only once and it slowly makes me demotivated to practice science.

[@Heyu7her3]

They might not trust others, which is fair if they've had a bad experience.

[@mrillig]

If that's the only thing then this is something to talk about for sure. Some people are more protective of their ideas than others, and that's ok. When making external collaborations it is always important to talk to the PI first.

[@mrillig]

Yes, this is a good point!

[@a_aliouat]

Hello, Thanks professor for the helpful videos. I would like to know if it is possible to show us some tips for a good PhD thesis defense, what to include in the slides and how a good presentation should be.

[@mrillig]

Thanks! I am putting it on my list of topics to think about. I haven't made a video about PhD defenses because they can be quite different from country to country. But I think there are some common elements.

[@tabindazaren5936]

Kindly give your valuable insight how to find a good post doc position in a prosperous working environment

[@mrillig]

Good suggestion, thanks!

[@mahmudaislam5428]

What would you do if you find your supervisor is not flexible at all? He won't like you work remotely, even though coming to office means a 4 hour long strenuous journey and you have told him that it's not for so long. You are looking for property nearby to move. Your supervisor won't approve you appling for a part time job in the lab either. He says phd is a full time job you can't have another job on top of that. Also, in terms of work, he shoots the idea of doing anything outside his speciality. It's not feasible, or no funding too expensive, etc. I feel like i am less in control of my phd

[@mrillig]

I am sorry that I cannot really comment on individual cases. It looks like your supervisor is not very flexible. There may or may not be good reasons for this, people are different. Many researchers do not want to venture outside or their specialty, there are good reasons for this. The presence-time requirement is an odd one, but people run their labs in different ways. If this is the biggest problem, maybe the situation will resolve once you move closer. But if this is an indication of an incompatibility in personality between you and your advisor (I think it is more like this, rather than an outright toxic workplace from what I read into this), then it may be better for you to change, if this is an option.

[@leonorfdrs]

Dear Prof. Rillig, thank you for your videos. I am in a situation where I was accepted in a lab where I now know that the PI is very toxic, manipulative and unfair. In our interviews it all sounded fine but I heard about this behaviour from two former phd students. I really want to pursue my phd and the research of this lab is really what I was looking for. While I have been applying to other labs in the same field, I'm only receiving rejections. I am also limited to where I can do my PhD because I have two young children, a husband with a stable job and therefore can't just move away to another place. I am really considering accepting this offer because of lack of other opportunities. I keep telling myself that I will be able to handle it but what if it doesn't work out?

[@mrillig]

Tricky situation. Knowingly going to join a lab with a toxic PI is a huge risk, and I would say it's not worth it; the cost is simply too high. I do understand that sometimes options are limited. I would wait for something else to come through. But in the end, it's a complicated decision to take. I wish you all the best!

[@rishikabukhariya9657]

What to do if phd guide is moody and wants perfect results in the initial 4-5 months of phd. ( PS- student is new to the lab and techniques)

[@mrillig]

Sorry I can't give solid advice on individual cases. But it sounds like this should be discussed; and unreasonable expectations are not conducive to a healthy lab environment.

[@narutozzz6166]

Hi. What are your thoughts on if a PI’s previous lab members career whereabouts are not on their labs website? Also if the Pi only had 1 graduate student?

[@mrillig]

Well if it is a young PI there may be not much to put on there yet...if the PI has been around for a while (keeping in mind that in some countries like the US it takes around 5 years to earn a PhD, as opposed to in Europe, where it is more like 3-4 years), that would be rather weird. Keeping track of where people go and update the web page is work, so not everyone wants to do that. So that by itself may not mean that much.