toxic role plays keep romanticising abuse

[@kaliland9296]

I did an internship as an English teacher at an integration school in Berlin right around the time that Fifty Shades of Grey came out. Most of the students I worked with were women over the age of 25, most of them mothers, from different countries in the Middle East and were Muslim. They were is incredibly kind and would bring me food every lunch and make sure I had enough to eat and were worried about me being in another country without my family. Which is why it broke my heart when so many of them told me they wanted to go see Fifty Shades of Grey because they thought it was a beautiful love story. I had been informed about the abuse that some of them faced at home at the hands of their husbands or other family members. One of the husbands of the women showed up to the school with a bunch of flowers after having abused her at home. He wanted to make a public display of how he cared about her, but really it was just manipulative. And it worked. Many of the other women found it sweet. Part of my job was transcribing interviews with women who graduated from the school and stated that because of the support they had received through the school, they were able to leave their abusive husbands because they were able to secure the means to support themselves and their kids.

[@andrewb.7917]

I hope the woman in your story who received flowers from her abusive husband is in a safer position now. That’s amazing that some of the women were able to use the school as a springboard to a better life though . Was the school for non-traditional students then? Sounds like a cool institution.

[@kaliland9296]

@@andrewb.7917 I hope so too. The school was for women with migratory backgrounds. Some of them never finished school past elementary school, while others who were sometimes from war-torn areas did finish school, even had higher education, but their documents were destroyed so their education couldn't be recognised by the German government. There was a separate section for women under 25 where a lot of the students had grown up in Germany, but their families didn't care about their education so they didn't care either. They dropped out of school but later came to realise that finishing their education was the best way for them to change their circumstances.

[@AugustRx]

Doesn't sound like it was a reoccurring incident if he took so much effort to apologize and she forgave him but who knows how those cultures work

[@kaliland9296]

@@AugustRx I believe it was a recurring problem, but it's not one she directly communicated with me. The other teachers mentioned that her husband would often mistreat her and then bring her presents in front of everyone.

[@robnewman5329]

I’m a little disappointed that you didn’t go into more details about how capitalism and the fetishization of wealth is a MAJOR factor in these dark romance fantasies. To quote a meme I loved “if Christians grey lived in a trailer park instead of a penthouse it would of been an episode of criminal minds” too me as a lower socioeconomic straight white man, the biggest factor here is it’s a rich man doing it so it’s kinda “allowed” wish you went into that more

[@RHLW]

Its not really wealth, its status. A person in a position of power/leadership (be that financial, political, industrial, whatever) is socially expected and permitted to exercise that power.

[@robnewman5329]

@@RHLW mate let’s keep it 100, “status” is just a synonym for money that sounds more noble, after 20 no one is “high status” and broke

[@RHLW]

@@robnewman5329 Do rock/movie/sports stars get groupies because they have money, or because of their stardom? True, many (in modern society) who achieve high status will also come into money, but the permission society hands them to behave as they will stems from their status, not their possessions. One could just as easily have 50 take place in some non capitalist universe where Grey isnt a billionaire, but a high ranking party official, and it would be no different.

[@vodkaboy]

I agree, most worrying part, as it will lead a lot of people to be disappointed, not everyone wins at the capitalist lottery

[@desireeuzor681]

Honestly that's a very interesting view that I tend to forget about even as a person that's been poor for most of my life. It gives another layer to the topic that's already quite deep

[@cellink1577]

I work at a bookstore. I always wondered why only middle aged house wifes and teenage girls seemed to be the only people to buy those dark romance books.

[@Ukraineaissance2014]

For the same reason thats the main audience for true crime, they need a kind of safe exposure with a barrier to this stuff for some reason. Possibly for the same reason those with lesser boundaries intentionally choose criminal or unpleasant 'bad boys'.

[@cellink1577]

@@Ukraineaissance2014 I did always kind assume that it is exciting for them because teenage girls can read/imagine something that's very outside what they have experienced since they have probably only a little if any sexual experience and I always assumed it's a escape for housewives from their maybe boring sexlife. But it never occurred to me that it's actually also a tool for some to cope with their trauma.

[@suides4810]

​@@cellink1577people with trauma tend to avoid all media with unpleasant things People who lack thrills seek out horror

[@podtherod9304]

What the other people before me have said is very very true but let’s not forget, internalized misogyny surely plays a masssssssive role in this

[@cellink1577]

@@podtherod9304 But isn't internalized misogyny more of a reason why women do not mind these types of books? I don't think many women go out of their way to purchase a dark romance book because they have internalized misogyny.

[@Ukraineaissance2014]

When the whole fifty shades of grey frenzy was going on i saw tess of the d'urbervilles repeatedly being pushed alongside it as a 'you might also enjoy this' option. A book in which a 19th century lower class woman is graped and abused by her upper class lover/user and eventually faces the gallows for her reaction. Such sexy fun.

[@katfujioka212]

Who in their right mind is recommending that as anything other than a tragedy?? It's a horrifying tale of how women were (and are) systematically punished for male indiscretions, there's literally nothing sexy or positive about it at all...

[@Ukraineaissance2014]

Waterstones. But they were recommending hitlers mein kampf as a Christmas read a few years ago though to be fair. And Amazon. I stick to Far from the Madding Crowd instead and choose to only recognise its deepest themes as being sheep, comedy yokel locals drinking cider and how obvious idiots turn out to be idiots

[@communism_is_based]

​@@katfujioka212 It shouldn't, but I've always heard about it mentioned by others as a sexy book as well lol the end of history is indeed amazing, thanks Fukuyama

[@Ukraineaissance2014]

@@communism_is_based you need to track these people down and ask them what they mean by that, although I suspect its received wisdom and they havnt actually read the book. Wasnt fukuyama's 'end of history' just the (wrong) idea that liberal democracy was the perfect system after the end of the cold war and communism?

[@communism_is_based]

@@Ukraineaissance2014 yes

[@KaiaKooking]

This makes me think of the actor who played Damon in Vampire Diaries. Apparently he was uncomfortable with the way his character was written as a bad guy/romantic love interest and so he’d play him essentially as two different characters. In the beginning he’s evil but when he becomes a potential romantic partner for the heroine he plays him a lot sweeter and caring. I was in the fandom and back then fans were not happy with his acting and demanded the”bad boy they fell in love with” back. Which is strange, like he still did horrible things in the story but in their eyes he was just to nice about it and open with his emotions ? Like ? Are you okay ?

[@savelala]

I am the only woman who does not like books like "normal people", "one day, or any dark romance? I always thought that the factor of the woman in these stories being in a position of emotional or physical masochism, a disgusting factor for me. Maybe because I don't have a fetish for being "submissive"? Nowadays it's a struggle to find a story in which I like the female character.

[@Alaskan-Armadillo]

One thing that I have always found that people don't understand when it comes to relationships is that they expect instantaneous connection and compatability. It is just sad because I find that we lack patience with others. I know this isn't that profound but its something I have seen a lot of.

[@pinkysaurusrawr]

This was an excellent video. I have long been frustrated about this topic, and I agree that the root of the issue is that so many women only know, learn, and understand one type of experience. But the result is that it has made even their fiction monotonous, in its own way, and undoubtedly damaging in the stereotypes it perpetuates and the abuse it ignores. I also don't share life goals or a path with many of the readers of this type of fiction, and I wonder at how to reach them, or how to continue the political sexual liberation movement.

[@RumpledRegina]

I think that the key is on the monotony and lack of excitement of the everyday life some people live through. A student's everyday life is mandatory school, with the same people the may not even like and a strict schedule they have to follow outside of it. Suburban housewives may or may not love their husband's but they sure love their lifestyles, even if they are repetitive and boring. So the excitement comes from what their lifestyle will never give them and they don't want to leave. I'd say lack of excitement and the feeling of not being able to accept things you don't like in your own life leads to outsourcing excitement from fiction since it's not real and it's a controlled environment. Usually dark romances have intense emotions in them, even if the dynamics are unhealthy or str8 up abusive. And since no one is making them feel intense emotions in real life, they outsource them to feel a bit alive and excited while some longing for a relationship that will stir them up emotionally in real life. That's mostly what these girls/women mean when they crave these dark romances heroes. And some like the hot actor, sure 😂 But it has an impact because of the emotional longing.

[@bicho6313]

Unfortunately abusive dynamics between men and women are very common. You don't even need to have suffered abuse to romanticize it. You just have to had grown up seeing it played out elsewhere, even in media, which teaches us a lot about how we view ourselves in relation to others. It can even be as simple as you wanting an overly jealous partner because your dad never gave you attention so you desire the complete opposite. As long as society remains unequal women will romanticize something that we feel we have no control to change so we might as well learn to like it.

[@visionofewe]

The confusion of conflict and passion is concerning. Mistaking the thrill of mutual interest/love/vulnerability/respect/CONSENT with the fight/freeze/flight response is detrimental and gives maladaptive neurochemical feedback.

[@pedrova8058]

that's why adrenaline (like in extreme sports) is addictive

[@quiestinliteris]

That's one of the few troubling psychological phenomena that actually can be blamed on biology. There's a lot of physiological overlap between arousal responses to wildly different stimuli. And we don't talk frankly enough about emotional nuance for everybody to learn to distinguish between them.

[@timokaaarp7779]

It super sucks that so many netflix adult dramas are based around male obsession, male control and general male bullshit. As a man, I'm too embarrassed to watch that shit with my partner - our relationship is based on mutual respect, not sub/dom power fantasies. Where are all the genuinely sexy/sensual films?

[@Ukraineaissance2014]

They usually dont require terrible sex scenes so are seen as very old fashioned. Brief encounters for example

[@Yoyoadventure]

OMG this so true like what kind of example is that for the younger or people that have never been in a relationship, it’s normalising abuse it’s honestly disgusting and so weird. Merci pour cette vidéo !

[@Yessicuhhh]

In a way it’s like young boys seeing violent pornography as their first exposure to sexual relations and look how that has turned out for both men and women.

[@Yoyoadventure]

@@Yessicuhhh exactly!

[@podtherod9304]

@@Yessicuhhhbingo

[@fallingasaleaf]

@@Yessicuhhhoh come on you comparing porn to a poorly written badly executed book… A Book HAS WORDS a person that READS need to be able to contextualise. A 10 minutes porn video is a completely different stimulus and yes of course we all should know that a teen can’t and shouldn’t learn about sexual dynamics through porn… Schools exists for a reason… We pay taxes but I guess education systems failing everywhere especially in the USA.

[@KaiaKooking]

I once on a quest to find ethical p*rn stumbled upon a side that prided itself on how amazing and “from the women’s perspective” it was .. it had all the markers of a trustworthy and open site, including being transparent about payment and safety of the actors. I thought, great, signed up and well all the films were some kind of dark romance fantasy plays. I wasn’t familiar with the genre and it said nowhere that it was that. I felt extremely put off and weirded out because the violence against women was a lot more explicit and everywhere than even in mainstream p*rn. I still think it’s awful and I blame 50 shades of grey that we arrived at a point where “for women” has become synonymous with “abuse fantasy” to some.

[@CC3GROUNDZERO]

Check out IFM sometime. It's authentically from an intellectual women's perspective.

[@patricksullivan1827]

Search for sensual love making! Hahah. There is plenty of mutual enjoyment films out there. 🎉😅😊

[@MWB_FoolsParadisePictures]

A concern that occurred to me recently that I never hear discussed in any circle: As long as women are being told that there can never be a power balance when alone with a man, that men are inherently toxic and predatory, that men wanting sex are disgusting, and that sex with a man is corrupting or diminishing or deteriorating of a woman-rather than a potentially beautiful and exciting experience shared between two people-then women who want sex with men can never be fully sexually liberated. As long as the popular cultural discussion leads women to believe these things as a generality, they will likely seek toxicity in men. Many here in the US believe the toxicity level is simply an indication of masculinity level. The idea seems to permeate our culture that if a man doesn't want to be domineering and controlling then he doesn't want to take care of her, protect her, be a provider, rear children, or be a decisive person. I think the discussion about masculinity and the male sex has become so oversimplified in so many circles that many, many women assume that any man who does not fit the negative stereotypes also does not fit the positive ones. Which sucks because it seems like just another way in which patriarchy is damaging individuals of all genders and society as a whole.

[@AugustRx]

Would've been quoted everywhere if this comment dropped in the 90s

[@Sonjayu]

This is 100% true. And popukar culture, even if it's allegedly "adult" absolutely does perpetuate that.

[@Dayo_kid]

I think a big contributing factor is the idea of losing control for once or making the fact that you don’t have control more appealing. We live in a society in which we do have to take control of our lives 24/7 , I think many woman and men take to the idea of someone else being in control as a relief , alternately they always feel out of control and wants something to explain that feeling away and so it manifests in our kinks. Amplified by the emotion-frustration, the desire of letting go of the control gets darker to get people to that satisfaction in a shorter amount of time . Woman and men therefore find attraction to their subsconscious situations. These books are a comfort to people I think.

[@quiestinliteris]

Yeah, I do think it ultimately boils down to control. From both sides, though. Someone who feels they must always be in control gets relief from letting go of it temporarily. Someone who feels their life is completely out of control gets relief from the idea of being out of control *voluntarily* for once. But the conflation of control and abuse is unfortunate. While control is an integral component of abuse, control is not inherently abusive. It's a shame there isn't more fiction depicting the one *without* the other.

[@marcello7781]

I wonder if the authors romanticizing abuse ever had to go through real abuse.

[@troubadour723]

Maybe, maybe not, but they know the reader likely has; otherwise it wouldn't be an identifiable genre.

[@CC3GROUNDZERO]

E. L. James is by all accounts such an abusive person that I'd exclude the possibility that she grew up healthy and truly fully loved.

[@celia1888]

In some cases it's how they deal with the abuse they went through, in others' it's a fantasy. It really just depends

[@yamataichul]

They don't, for the most part, they won't, they never cared to listen to others and they never encountered in their family such abuse. On the contrary I've noticed that most actual abused victims write fiction and fanfiction "glorifying" the abuse under the dead dove/do not eat tag

[@sogekinoshimade]

@@yamataichul sounds like a way to process trauma in a safe space without harming anyone. Therapists always recommend doing art to do so

[@RTDoh5]

No mention of the 1954 french novel HISTOIRE d'O (The story of O). That would be a great example of the toxic role in romanticised abuse. It was written by a female author Anne Desclos under the pen name Pauline Réage. They even made a movie from it in 1975. You could probably do a whole episode on that.

[@XSaphir]

Quelle vidéo ! Comme toujours tes arguments sont mesurés, nuancés et recherchés. Grande fan 🙌🏼

[@AlexanderSkinnerVids]

There’s something inherently confounding about a feminist who says they’re enamored with 50 Shades of Grey.

[@barttrodd7918]

It’s like being a KZbinr who criticizes capitalism while being sponsored by SquareSpace 😂

[@treacherousjslither6920]

​@@barttrodd7918Oh snap haha

[@catsaresocute650]

Yeah

[@Eva_noir.]

Because woman can't unite and jealous about each other.

[@louwrentius]

@@barttrodd7918 you criticize society yet you partake in it, curious! I am very smart 🤔

[@nudhar1990]

It’s disheartening to see so many fans idolize couples like Damon and Elena from The Vampire Diaries, Chuck and Blair from Gossip Girl, Hardin and Tessa from After, Edward and Bella from Twilight, and others. These toxic relationships are based on obsession, control, manipulation, desire, passion, sex, and emotional and physical codependency. These couples send a dangerous message to both young people and adults by normalizing abusive behaviors and portraying them as “true love.” The writers of these films and series, like Julie Plec, have romanticized toxicity for drama and audience engagement, without considering the impact on fans perception of love. We should not allow ourselves to be influenced solely by what we see in shows. True love is not toxic. Let’s think for ourselves and question the romantic models we encounter in the media.

[@alienazed]

didn't know what went through my ex's head when i argued him for manipulating and gaslighting me and he countered with, "yeah, but i'll see, you'll always come back to me, let's see" i was like? sir, what you smoking?

[@joed3736]

I think also part of is that “forbidden” or “wrong” things can be perceived as thrilling. Safe=boring sometimes and humans like different types of stimuli.

[@bb-3653]

Heck as a dude when i was younger, ive always fantasised as about some sort of super super strong, demon women taking control of me with forceful loving affection. Like idk if this is limited to womem tbh

[@samanthat.4281]

It can be appealing to teenage girls because it allows them a safe space to explore transgressive, taboo, and dark themes that otherwise wouldn't be socially accepted without actually having to live through it. Sex education classes don't really teach you anything in the US, and my first high school relationship was pretty tame. It was with a regular boy and the most we did physically was hold hands, he carried my books for me, we groped each other, and made out. I didn't really want to do anything more with him sexually. however, dark romance and the realm of fanfiction allowed me to explore different parts of my sexuality regarding consent, gender norms, and alternative relationship dynamics. For example, it was fun to read about BDSM and learn about it, but not actually do any BDSM stuff because there was no one I would trust or like enough to want to do that with in real life.

[@jadacoombs5263]

That's valid, I typically like dark & monster romances however I'm VERY critical with how they go about consensual physical intimacy & character dynamics. Enjoying stories with a thrill isn't inherently bad, unless it's glamorizing traumatic events for the sake of being "sexy".

[@Jozyrose]

Omg a voice of reason! You exist! I thought I was going mental looking at people fawn over toxic partners. It would be great if you can talk about BDSM and it's links with abuse.

[@satyasyasatyasya5746]

I think "A" stories/narratives appeal to people who are either: 1) terrible at reading people and knowing when someone likes them so enjoy the certainty or 2) are so tired of not being wanted that they just want something to come along that insists upon itself. 3) a combination of 1 and 2 who no longer wants the burden of agency. Its that need to be wanted, and want to be needed that is itself almost self-A. Heck, even I still have daydreams of someone wanting me so badly they do some bad stuff because I'm lonely and damaged, but I know its wrong and don't watch media that depicts it.

[@treacherousjslither6920]

Burden of agency? Wooow haha smh

[@satyasyasatyasya5746]

@@treacherousjslither6920 what of it? alot of people seek escape from the stress of life and in some cases of most of living. They want someone to come in and take control or at least look after them. It can be healthy and unhealthy, it depends. Grow up.

[@julecaesara482]

it's defenitely 2 for me. But also the "I can fix him" nonsense. I am afraid it will take my whole life to unlearn that

[@immortan-valkyrie90]

The way I cringed at those clips of the dark romance rp on TikTok 🤢

[@OverthinkingConde]

For us, the heteros, I call this Heterofatalism + Amatonormativity fed by redpilling. For everyone else, similar but specific insecurities I’m not qualified to talk about. But I can imagine LGBT+ people incorporate a lot of hetero bullshit because hetero-love is the hegemonic, overwhelming model for relationships everywhere.

[@snowyetie8799]

Indeed, but also manly in more surface dwelling queers that only enjoy mainstream media and yaoi/lesbian content which are marketed to heteros. In more deeper sides of the lgbtq community shit gets fun quickly.

[@samc3767]

off topic but I love the subtle product plaacement of your upcoming book! great video, as always Alice.

[@moarlekin5440]

I want to disagree with many comments here that claim there is a strict separation between fantasy and reality. I've studied literature, fiction is much more complex than simply dividing it from reality. To put it simply, fiction and reality often influence each other. Comparing imagined abuse with fantasy novels and video games is also problematic. Typically, games involving violence and fantasy worlds are so distinct from our real lives that people can easily perceive them as pure imagination. For example, when we play first-person shooter games, we're not seriously practicing shooting in real life, and we don't expect to find ourselves in such a situation. However, many of us have relationships and engage in sexual activities. In these cases, imagined abuses and fantasies of unhealthy relationships can (not always, of course) serve as a model for real relationships and real sex. These fantasies can reveal hidden desires.

[@realericanderson]

I always get something out of your videos off of a throw away line haha. This time it was the idea of intimacy vs a relationship. Haven’t really thought splitting those apart or that they could be, thanks!

[@oreganothankyou]

Kink, and especially kinks regarding things like abuse or possession, are strange and I'm not even going to pretend to understand how they work. There are definitely people who fetishize these types of toxic relationships and dynamics, with some of these people only liking it in fantasy and not in practice. I don't think people are necessarily bad or unhealthy for having these kinks, but it's important to be critical of what you enjoy about these kinks and maybe do some introspection into why you have these kinks.

[@therearenoshortcuts9868]

"toxic relationship" from the abuser's point of view: "lmao... what relationship???"

[@namangoy]

So I'm a lesbian that's really into (specifically Sapphic) dark romance books. I also enjoy cuter fluffier stuff, but dark romance like that written by Lianyu Tan or a variety of small online creators is my favorite. For me it fits into my other sexual / romantic interests as well- I'm very into bdsm and am in a 24/7 power transfer relationship. So dark fantasy books are just much easier for me to see myself in or insert myself in. I think such fantasies, and such erotica, can be explored healthily if done so after or while going through the personal growth of deconstructing gender, gender roles, how those fit in with sex in general and sex specifically for each person, signs of abuse, of unhealthy relationships, codependency, etc. As for teenage girls reading these (which includes me, though it was before I knew I was a lesbian), I think what we need is just better sex education. Kids needs to know that this isn't the only, or the "right" way to have sex, need to know how to identify signs of abuse, etc. If kids are armed with all of that and then when they become adults, still want to explore taboo themes but in a healthy manner? That's what the bdsm community is for.

[@madspunky]

Yeah!

[@fallingasaleaf]

second this

[@cteixeirax]

so you read dark romance books while your sexuality was developing and are now in a "24/7 power transfer relationship". you are obviously mature and intelligent (and possibly just lucky to have found a healthy relationship where you don't have to work to compartmentalise your fetish) but i think it's obvious even from what you're saying that the prominence and normalisation of abuse fetish is going to turn men into abusers and women into abuse victims. all that it takes is the lack of willpower to prioritise general wellbeing over the desire to "explore taboo themes". our sexuality isn't some immutable quality like a soul that exists from birth, it's influenced and conditioned by our experiences. being exposed to fetish porn at a young age isn't helping accelerate people down a path they would always be going down. it's fundamentally changing their sexuality. and treating people's/our own sexuality as unassailable and beyond criticism or analysis is what normalises it. you phrase bdsm as a desire that people might rationally choose to engage with, but we're also constantly encouraged by our society to NOT regulate our desires. our society is designed around instant gratification. society trains young women to fetishise abuse while also training them to follow their desires uncritically and enthusiastically. many of them will also find themselves in 24/7 power transfer relationships, but not ethical ones.

[@francissalema4242]

when thinking about this subject, I keep coming back to a quote I heard from Slavoj Zizek, I think referencing Lacan, which was "When desire is prohibited, prohibition itself becomes desire(d)". as a previous teenage girl myself, I remember feeling very repressed in my sexuality. it was no issue to be talked about openly, and as I received no information about it I didn't know what to do with my newfound sexual desires, I had trouble even recognizing them as such. what was available to me were representations of sexual lives in fanfictions with dark romance undertones with the common narrative of prohibition of sexual desire, which was coherent with my own experience of sexual desire. and housewives may fall under the same repression I think. they are trapped in this monogamous lifestyle with no liberty to explore beyond the sexual life they share with their husband, which is most likely (at least according to studies on heterosexual sex) not satisfying for them. satisfaction is not easily obtained and almost then prohibited by the norms they live by, and desire may become distorted to include that prohibition in itself. in dark romance fantasies that very prohibition they feel (although in different imaginary situations) is surpassed. and that's the appeal of those stories, I think

[@claudiabcarvalho]

I wonder if people who argue that it's "just fantasy" really understand abusive in all its subjectivity. And I feel like there's a lot of daddy issues involved in thinking that being controlled by your partner is sexy.

[@M.H.I.A.F.T.]

Women fall for jerks in reality. Goodness forbid that fiction should represent reality, right?! Reading and enjoying a book that explores an idea isn't the same as condoning it in reality.

[@Sonjayu]

@@M.H.I.A.F.T. ok incel

[@charliewatts7577]

okay so a lot of people consume this media as a form of healing - id recomend looking at somatic therapy such as drama and art therapy !! consuming media and creating media around abuse that you have experience can help many people also what someone likes as a sexual dynamic doesn't say anything about their trauma or life (although if a kink is informed by trauma i don't feel like that is necessarily negative either)

[@Abcdefg-tf7cu]

​@@Sonjayu Yeah, man. You would need to be an incel to think that any woman has ever fallen for a jerk. It has never happened. Not even once.

[@Sonjayu]

@@Abcdefg-tf7cu yeah keep coping. It may happen, but it's far from the default or as common as you losers make it out to be. And far from romantic, even in fiction.

[@anaerobic]

I think we read certain books for different purposes and I think a lot of people who read this specific genre don't necessarily 'read' into it. There are times I want to read dark romance, specifically for the flirty beginning and 'possessiveness' (because I don't experience this in real life bc it's scary and dangerous) maybe some of the spicy stuff when I feel like it - but I'm eye rolling many of the dramatic lines and scenes. And when I've had my fill, I move on. It's basically emotional p*rn. I don't think most guys who deliver pizza expect to hook up with a customer, and I don't expect that I will run into a mafia person who falls in love with me physically hurts everyone but me lol

[@hakuuuei9189]

I mean, I agree, but at the same time if people are constantly being exposed to these sort of narratives it runs the risk of reinforcing narratives of toxic heteronormativity and misogynistic gender roles even if people aren't really "reading" into it. it's not a 1:1 thing of course, I don't think every single person who reads this sort of genre is internalising it 100% - but even though most guys who deliver pizza don't expect to hook up with a customer, if they're watching that stuff then it can still feed into an entitlement to women's bodies and expectations of certain sexual performances, especially because that's what society is already priming them to expect from women. I don't think people who read dark romance are entirely exempt from the effect of toxic societal ideas becoming reinforced, unfortunately. imo the best way to combat this is sex ed and education about consent, and to continue fighting for gender equality, so that when people do come across & enjoy these fantasies they're very clear about them being fantasies and not bleeding into their real life attitudes (which I know a lot of people who read dark fiction are already aware of, including you from the sounds of it!)

[@claudiabcarvalho]

You missed the point at the end of your comment. It's not that you and other people don't to know that explicitly bad people are bad. It's all the rest. The flirty beginning usually presents power imbalance and toxic setups as sexy: CEO and an employee, a criminal and a naive young woman, a rich boy and a very vulnerable girl. And yet, the story never addresses those dynamics as red flags, but challenges the couple should overcome in order to be together. Abusive doesn't start with spanking, or else the victim would be running scared. It starts with a person expressing their opinions as a demand, because they feel entitled by their power, then the victim agrees because of their lack of power/knowledge. It starts with small things with allegedly good intentions, then it grows worse and worse. The thing is, toxicity can be overcome if the parts are willing to go through therapy. But abusiveness can't be overcome by the couple, because there's no love nor passion there, there's only an oppressor and an oppressed, and the only way for the oppressed to be safe and happy again is getting rid of their oppressor. When the love interest is also the villain of the story, things tend to go from bad to worse. I think it all started with Pride and Prejudice, except their relationship ended up being a healthy one, just because they were willing to admit their issues and work on them, and because Darcy wasn't the real villain, and Lizzie doesn't accept him until he goes through a series of changes. My question to you is why? Why does the setup interest you so much? Because it's not about flirting, because a lot of other genres under the romantic romance umbrella have those.

[@heywhat6676]

I just wonder how many kinks/fetishes would simply not exist if we didn't live in such an unequal society, and if we all had a bit more respect and confidence overall. How much is pure fantasy and how much is socialization, trauma and others? Normalizing this as the internet loves to do won't help as much as introspection and restructuring of oppressive social dynamics. I doubt you can build something good on a broken base

[@g.i.1004]

More people stay forever teens in that state of overwhelm and angst because the market needs them needy and weak, always in search for a thing to buy in order to feel safer and more accepted. Well, we are born worthy, no need to do anything, just go about your life and don't be an a-hole/stay away from them and you'll be fine.

[@Twistingfergus]

While I can respect someone who says they are turned on by the idea of having a toxic partner, the thing I cannot parse is that a fantasy that's actually played out requires a partner who is turned on by being a toxic partner. How can you be with a person you know enjoys that, and expect them to be able to switch it on and then off?

[@p003htb7]

I would assume anyone trying to practically implement a dynamic like this would fall under some kind of D/s relationship, so it would be the same way you would build trust and negotiate and communicate just like with any other kink/bdsm.

[@charliewatts7577]

so bdsm is very much about consent and safety, it is a set scenario and there are many boundaries communicated and at play - its not just "someone who wants to be toxic" (although there are harmful people in every community)

[@keiththorpe9571]

I'm 51 years old. I've been in more relationships than I can count with the kind of women you're talking about, and I know for a fact that in many cases, "Dark Romance" is not role play for them, it's not an indulgence for a vicarious thrill. It's what they want, and what they actively seek out, and many of my relationships have ended for that very reason. They seemed to want some level of violence and abuse meted out to them, whether that be emotional, mental, or even straight-up physical and sexual abuse and domination. The only way they seemed to know how to gauge their worth was by this twisted metric of the abuse doled out to them. They wanted to be objectified, they wanted to be controlled and subjugated, they wanted to be a doormat. I'm not the guy who was going to fulfill their need for toxic, controlling "love" by putting my boot across the back of their neck. I'm just not that man. I want a relationship based on love, trust, acceptance, respect, true intimacy. Physical, intellectual, spiritual intimacy.

[@한솔.6]

This is gold. I want everyone on this planet to have seen it.

[@lizziemallow]

(F) I think of myself as someone rather deconstructed on the subject of toxic relationships, however, I still fantasize powerdynamics in role-play and that kind of stuff. I'm rather strong-headed and opiniated, so I really enjoy the *consenting* "loss of control" in bed with a partner I trust, it's a nice contrast. Kink is not reality. Still, I'm not a big fan of dark romances personnaly, when it gets to realistic it just pulls me off. I prefer the silly ones.

[@BINSNEWS]

I always believed that Dark Romance novels send the wrong message re to relationships. I liked the video by the way. From what I have seen in life this tends to be a phase in women in certain time periods in their life. I have always had concerns re to the abuse issue in these kinds of books especially when women in the 18-25 age range read them.

[@MariaDonkova]

well it’s called fiction for a reason

[@aerispalm6523]

i'm not rly into the whole jealousy stuff and certainly live in a very different, much queerer world than the houswives you described. but some abuse is just plain hot and it doesn't rly matter to me if they're morally good or whatever. it also provides escape from an unbearable reality where i feel like i need to maintain an insane level of control to be safe as well as an alternative to the real abuse i've experienced that crosses boundaries in a disappointingly pathetic and ugly way. i want to feel like i don't have to do anything or worry about anything because there's someone who has absolute control over me and will make sure that every second is just as overwhelmingly horrible and beautiful as the next. so i'm not rly into dark romance or anything cishet like that but i fucking love serious weakness for example(also the band patriarchy). just feel like my brain has adjusted to these intense traumatic experiences and now i can't deal with living a normal life anymore and trauma can be good as long as it's beautiful and never ends. you can tell me this is problematic but you can not deny me the beauty i see in it and that's all i care about.

[@voltairesarmy6702]

I'm an enby switch. I think it's a way for people with kinks who are not ready for actually exploring it in person (or to supplement that). You don't choose your kinks so it doesn't matter what you know about domestic violence, etc. you want it regardless. I do wish there were more Dominant women though. So many men, and many are not ethically engaging in BDSM. Actually predators of all genders is an issue. I barely speak to Dommes anymore because so many are predators pretending to be Dommes.

[@gokerveral6713]

In turkey it is the new normal and even it is suggested men to be that much toxic. I cannot explain the relief when I hear the word " syndrome" from your mouth at 1.55. New subscrieber here ! I disagree with about Jonah Hill post but you are person worth to watch even I will be disagree sometimes

[@riddlesplay]

Amazing work, appreciate you

[@talideon]

I've always wondered if, at the root of this, people read/watch this kind of thing for similar reasons to why they'd watch/read horrors. Both have people engaging in a darker, more dangerous version of their actual lives, and there's something transgressive and thus thrilling in that. There may also be some overlap with BDSM on the submissive side, except rather than using a safe word if things get too much, you can close the book or stop the video, but you still get whatever thrill you get out of being dominated by another without the actual danger.

[@Ukraineaissance2014]

Or romanticising cheating, which is why i will never admit dr zhivago is my favourite book despite it being my favourite book

[@Ukraineaissance2014]

​@lif6737 not for the partner, because theyre with a pathetic, disloyal loser who will sell them out in a second and dont know it yet.

[@DaFireElf]

this is a really good and interesting video that made me think about my own ideas of gender and sexuality, especially regarding why i consume certain kinds of media and my expectations of what a relationship is about. i especially loved the discussion about neoliberalism and romance novels, since that isn't something that i really thought about. thank u so much for this video! lots to think abt

[@eustacedeslauriers5202]

I just read Carmen Maria Machado’s memoir In the Dream House, and it felt like a very good example of how the ‘type’ of abuser-abused relationship that’s considered by the popular culture as almost inherently heterosexual could very well happen for queer people too, the same techniques used by the abuser, the same type of background that prompt the same type of reactions from the abused, etc. And this all just proves that there really isn’t any inherent difference in the ‘natures’ of queer and hereo-cis people, and the assumption that this type of typical abusive relationships only happen to hetero-cis people would in turn make abusive relationships in queer people more difficult to detect.

[@isaac1403]

Mortal Kombat 1 - Official Omni-Man trailer just came out! Whoop whoop whoops. Wrong comment section.

[@胡子正]

As a guy addicted to dark romantic fantasy, I feel like a loser in real life

[@fallingasaleaf]

oh don’t stress about it. you’re fine as long as you have reading comprehension.

[@emerbrkah]

man do i hate Fifty Shades of Grey 😂

[@stephennootens916]

I tried to read it once and it was so poorly written and boring at the same time silly that I don't even remember if I managed to get to the first sex scene.

[@Captaiesqueleto]

I’m actually taking inspiration from Fifty shades of gray, maybe because I am clinically insane or a psychopath that I like cause pain

[@emerbrkah]

you do you i guess@@Captaiesqueleto

[@Zectifin]

I think a dileneation needs to be made for kink and general toxic relationships. someone roleplaying dominant in the bedroom is different from wanting someone to be toxic outside of it.

[@AugustRx]

This isn't role playing rape in these wattpad books

[@noahl3681]

Isn't dom/sub thing kinda a transgression to feminism? We are trying to break up the hierarchy between genders but people play with that idea because it's taboo. Idk I don't think kink should be left to never be criticized or analysed.

[@snowyetie8799]

Dom/sub doesn’t need to be fem/masc and is more about how you prefer to interact with your partner

[@pedrova8058]

yeah, intersectionality

[@troubadour723]

I won't pass judgement on other's tastes (other than the fact that very little out there reflects my own tastes -- sigh . . .), but I will question the motives of the authors. A lot of, erm, "creatives" use their medium to manipulate the reader/audience. But then they're not really artists, they're businesspeople. And marketing a product for personal gain involves a substantial amount of manipulation. Aren't polyamory and cheating, by definition, completely opposite?

[@claudiabcarvalho]

Yeah, it's all about consent and trust.

[@mundaneeye]

i find it funny because it's obviously a result from trauma, so the people who will die on the hill defending normalizing being abused and degraded are probably not the happiest or healthiest people outside of that, which theyre fully aware of. 'dark' romance is just so corny

[@cyclonechaos]

I'm a man and I've come to realize jealousy is toxic and a waste of energy. I'm always open to a poly relationship with 2 women cis/trans I like both.

[@sayven]

This video is really interesting when you compare it to Contrapoint's new video on Twilight because while Natalie does a great job of explaining why people like Twilight and Dark Romance in general, her claim that therefore Dark Romance isn't a problem is kinda not very well argued for. (I only watched the first 90 minutes so far, so maybe she does get into it later on, but it did not seem so to me). EDIT: Nvm, she talks about that right after where I paused

[@AugustRx]

I also think it has something to do with the desire to be dominated while being "pure"

[@pendragon2012]

I really don't get the attraction of it. "I'd rather be Harley Quinn and the Joker not Romeo and Juliet." I mean R and J have plenty of baggage and reason not to want to be them but Harley Quinn and the Joker are in an abusive relationship....Anyway, great video as always, Alice!

[@animalstylefry]

I enjoyed the video and I'm grateful it explores a neglected topic, but I have to disagree with what you say about open relationships. Specifically: "you *should* be able to trust your partner and not feel like they belong to you" and "*if* you are comfortable in your own skin, you wouldn't feel jealous" may apply to you or may be things you aspire to, but they may not be true for others. The language you used almost implies a moral judgment on what one *should* do or one *should* feel, and makes it sound like if one was secure enough, or if one was confident enough, an open relationship would be the logical choice, or even the morally superior one. Except, that's not true. There are myriads of valid reasons why people may want a monogamous relationship, from not wanting to deal with the extra emotional work because they are too busy with kids, to religion, to just having different ideas about what romance and commitment entail. Purely by the numbers, open relationships *are* fairly extreme: they are mostly popular with left-leaning, younger individuals in *some* western countries.

[@lizziemallow]

I personnaly think what she says about jealousy actually applies to monogamous relationships too. If you trust your partner, and you're confident in your own judgement, you don't need to feel jealous, of course this person will stay by your side. And they'll agree to the terms you set in the beginning as for what is considered cheating. Do you feel confident this person will stay by your side even if they have close friendships with "possible partners"? If they kiss someone else on the lips? If they have protected sex with someone else? Does it depend on their gender, etc? As long as those things apply to both parties, and are fully consensual, then yeah, no need to feel jealous. If you do anyway, ask yourself if it's something you can never be confortable with, therefore changing the "contract" or breaking it, or if it's something you need to be working on.

[@lizziemallow]

I might add, as long as everyone is fine with the terms set, no type of relationship is better then the other. Just the one that suits you. Personnaly, I like having attention, feeling valued, feeling loved. I also have close relationships with my friends, I hate constraints like telling people where I'm going or who I'm going smwh with, I like having my one space, I like being free to do whatever I want, and I don't want to build my life choices around someone else. I don't care that much about my partner having a life of their own, including other partners or whatever, as long as I am getting what I want/need from that relationship. If that person tells me they're monogamous, then I'm also fine with that.

[@animalstylefry]

@@lizziemallow I 100% agree with what you wrote and even believe most couples could benefit from working on the issues underlying their jealousy. However, I did not read "*if* you are comfortable in your own skin, you wouldn't feel jealous" as "feeling confident in your relationship/partner". To me the former hits more on the note of "if you are confident enough in your body" or in "your ability to also attract other people" or even "your ability to still seduce your partner despite them seeing others".

[@lizziemallow]

@@animalstylefry What do you mean by "feeling jealous" then?

[@animalstylefry]

@@lizziemallow Not many people actually *need* to "draw a line between sex and relationship love". For many, they are connected. She's right that the connected way is the standard way, and that more people should question whether they are adopting the standard out of inertia or because they are actually wired that way. But one can be confident both in their partner and their own judgement AND not want them their partner to be sexually intimate with others, because to them sex = love. That's not even mentioning a lot of in-betweens. Many more people are ok with their partner either flirting with strangers, or having threesomes with them, or going to sex parties together, etc (all the monogam-ish arrangements) than there are in open relationships. And that's not tied to their self-esteem.

[@WhenIsItUs]

Thank you for another great video! People seem to forget that even in our darkest fantasies, we are always safe. We can imagine someone hurting us or forcing us to do things against our will, but so long as the fantasy is within the mind, no one is truly hurt. It must be kept in mind that our thoughts are not direct reflections of reality. In reality people do get hurt. It is important to learn how to navigate the complex situations that do arise during our most intimate moments, especially for those who lack experience. As someone often more physically imposing when compared to those I am attracted to(funny thing to write out), it is important to realize the situations in which an imbalance of power is taking place, despite my good intentions. We all make mistakes, but as long as we are all out to enjoy ourselves without seeking the harm of others, our potential for mistakes won't be that bad. Embarrassing? Absolutely. We are living in a world where one's biological status is still highly influential, yet not as much as it was. Or at least it is now interpreted differently. Equality, which should be the goal of innovation, should be easier now than ever. Sad that the old, decaying systems are still lingering.

[@grasshopper97]

Yo, old millennial chiming in here, and while I can only speak anecdotally to this, I think I might hold a little insight to offer. I dated a bunch online pre Tinder (OkCupid before it got bought out was fantastic for dating, just saying), and seeing the differences in how people relate today, I think that the heteronormativity resurgence is actually more related to economic conditions than not. When I was in my twenties in the late 00's and 10's, the economy was shit when it came to job pay, but everyday survival was doable. People had 'third spaces' to attend, and going out wasn't nearly as costly as it is now, let alone more or less the primary way to socialize. Because of this situation, people were a little more willing to explore in that time period, so there was a lot of couplings that I noticed were into experimentation - whether that was dating outside one's race, kink, etc. As time has marched on though, money became worth less. People had to work more to make ends meet, so they started focusing more on their careers, and stopped going out as well, turning to the internet for their dating and socializing (social media also subconsciously taught folks to reduce each other to content, but that's a whole other diatribe). With men and women's ability to survive independently continually declining, both started regressing into gender roles because of both their inability to explore as they had in the past, and the desirable nature of being a known factor brought people more security in themselves. Mind you, this 'normie' population has always existed, but they were starting to spread their wings a bit more with the state of the world prior, similar to the movements of the 60's mentioned in the video. People of the caliber also live in social circles that promote this type of gendered relationship, so now that they aren't really free to explore anymore, they create a sort of orthodoxy of heteronormativity, and because that population has always been larger than independent types, they create a standard for people of their ilk to follow. This of course leads to unfortunate stuff like tradwives and the manosphere, but in the end, people who've gone completely into survival mode subconsciously. Basically, folks are attempting to find the shortest path to 'the good life', still not understanding that such a relationship won't be fulfilling, as it has been dictated by conditions under capitalism. Social currency has a lot to do with it as well, because when you aren't in step with your sexual preference, you don't tend to connect with your sexual preference. Again, the performance of gender helps those people make contact, it's just that the unfortunate side effect is that straight people have more potential to create toxic relationships, simply by virtue of women familiarizing themselves with this kind of entertainment, and men becoming similar to that toxic male by attempting to become 'masculine', and assimilating to patriarchy. Imho, people should be trying to realize who they are as individuals first, but with limited time, resources, and being limited to a single location, there's not a lot of wiggle room, so I get it. Looking back on the past, there's a lot of darkness in life today, and I don't see many healthy relationships forming in lieu of that. Yet so long as people continue to push for better conditions, and not simply accepting things for how they are now, we can reach a better point in our future. At least that's what I think about this subject, probably dead wrong about it all, but 🤷😅

[@catsaresocute650]

I don't think it sounds contradicary, for one there's the need to grow to the point where you can reconsile personal/things you know of expriences and what you want. What's complicated, even much more if the expirences sucked more. So finding out how that happens happens among other things w role play. That's something I did w my psycjologist and it was actually helpfull. It's also a general coping mechanism, dosn't have to involve role play, to think about things that bother you that you can't understand etc and put it in a small like story

[@catsaresocute650]

You'll always have to resolve things that are real w things that happen so I don't think that's a popcuktre thing

[@margshuntley5651]

I think that at least a portion of the audience of people engaging in these abusive "romance" stories are motivated by a reclamation of their pleasure. I think it can sometimes be empowering for a person to take a situation that disempowers them and turn that into something that they derive pleasure from. But it's a very tricky line to draw between this reclamation of power and romanticizing or encouraging abuse.

[@MomoMensch]

i'm non-binary and bi and poly and i really enjoy very hetero and dark Dramione fanfiction. I think it is because it is so comforting to not challenge anything for a while. I tried to read queer fanfiction but i could not relax because i would always start to think about my own queer journey. I know the dynamics are toxic but somehow it makes it easier to enjoy because i stop looking for flaws or compare their relationship to the one i want, because i already know it has nothing to do with my own morals and wishes. so yeah, i guess thats a variation of the fantasy-stance... :)

[@Bibirallie]

I am sorry, but your viewpoint is very narrow and naive. Despite being bi, you can still experience the same situations as straight people and many people in non hetero-relationships go through abuse in their relationships. Personally, I don't believe in the non-binary nonsense, but for LGB relationships, I can assure you that these relationships themes exist.

[@MomoMensch]

@@Bibirallie I am sorry but I never said that abuse doesn't exist in queer relationships (or in my relationships). I said that the fantasy of these stories is so far off from my personal fantasy of relationships that i can relax and forget about reality and morals for a while.

[@hakuuuei9189]

I mean, I'm also non-binary and bi and I absolutely hate hetero dark fanfiction for precisely the reason the opposite reason to why you like it - it just makes me frustrated and sad that these violently misogynistic dynamics are so prevalent in society that a lot of people can't even escape them within their own imaginations. but this doesn't mean that I think your opinion is any less valid than mine! I can certainly see why people are drawn to these sorts of dynamics, and I think there should be spaces for people to explore them in fiction. so long as they have strong boundaries between their fantasies and reality, and don't use their fantasies to reinforce and propagate toxic oppressive dynamics irl, then it's fine by me :)

[@hakuuuei9189]

the issue, I suppose, is when these fantasies *do* acquire enough cultural power that they start reinforcing and propagating toxic oppressive dynamics irl... this isn't a problem with dark fanfiction imo, which is a niche subculture with limited reach and thus limited potential to do societal harm; I'm more thinking about toxic heteronormativity, misogyny and romanticisation of abusive relationships in big mainstream movies, tv shows etc. part of the answer to this is better sex ed & education about consent, but I also think it would be remiss to brush off critique of harmful mainstream tropes with "it's a fantasy safe space, so anything goes!" obviously one doesn't have to challenge everything always, but I think it's always good to examine what sort of ideas we're being fed in popular media, and speak up about them if they go against our values. (this isn't directed at you btw MomoMensch, it sounds like you have done that sort of self-examination! just rambling a bit about my own thoughts on the topic haha)

[@fabienhildwein3452]

Looking at your shelf in the background. I'd love to know what books you read and you like :)

[@k122-h1v]

I read some. I don't specifically seek out those books though. For me, I just wait till the abused mc finally break out of the cycle, and look for her/his own path. Also, for these stories, I read Bl... which I guess does have some implications.

[@PlaAwa]

thank you

[@drendelous]

i might have mentioned it sometime ago.. now there is another illustration to my unsolved question so hear me out. disclaimer: I have been listening to Troy's album for a week (though he blocked it in my country) and i love it. the music video for One of your girls though. so there are female singers who praise independence and self-esteem in their songs and promote to be enough for oneself and then there is Troy in a drag costume(?) serving a typical alpha male (very handsome etc). ok the the song IS about toxicity paralyzing us when WE are lonely (rather than the guys) but the way it is shown is so complimentary that it seems like the crew did not imply to show how really bad it is to be "one of the girls". and the question: is it bad afterall or drag culture cannot be different and it is in its essence to look dependent?

[@talitaseikehirano3606]

i saw a video of troye saying that this song portrays how he has had "straight" male friends who would want to have sex with him in a very objetictifying way "give me call if you ever feel lonely / get desperate" and how he would give into it and be casual about it "like one of your girls or your homies" and end up feeling kinda empty afterwards. idk if this video is available in your country, but the link is kzbin.info/www/bejne/hGK3gKKtaq2la5Y i think the song one of the girls by the idol (which btw starred troye as a minor character) fits into what u described much better, as it explicitly shows how abusive this "I just wanna be one of your girls tonight" can be "tell nobody I control you / I broke you just to own you [...] I love when you're submissive / love it when I break skin / you feel pain without flinchin [...] my kinda love / force me and choke me 'til I pass out'" and how bad it turns out "top of the world but I'm still not free / until it's gone, I can never find peace" troye was in drag in one of your girls as to portray how he would bend himself while being with these self proclaimed "straight" guys, as it seeks to portray the toxicity of being with people who use you for sex while they´re not open to explore their own sexuality and identity, rather brushing it off as a casual situation that means nothing to them. it does not mean to represent what being a girl is like or as to define drag culture as a whole, it only uses these as a tool for expressing troye´s personal experience i believe there is a difference between being simply a girl and being someone´s girl, the former being exhausting because of misoginy but not fundamentally bad and latter being quite belittling and dehumanizing

[@CC3GROUNDZERO]

Isn't all that a corollary to the near-universal male pr0n addiction of our times? It's all completely poisoned anyway, so I understand women reading such stories as a way of trying to cope.

[@sogekinoshimade]

Yeah and violent videogames promote murder. Unexpectedly very boomer take from you, Alice. Kinks and fiction preferences do not directly map onto reality, this video essay lacks any substantial research behind it (Facebook group immersion and TikToks do not count imo).

[@AugustRx]

People don't kill in fortnite bcoz they like the idea of someone dying

[@navariebronx205]

Animal the new senstaion in media is epitome of romanticising abuse

[@Bloodfangshows]

French horror and indie cinema investigates gross aspects of human nature in its most extreme form. I am not sure if you ever thought of covering this. I read authors such as Harlan Ellison and his story “The Last Whimper of the Whipped Dogs” explains themes of male violence better than most feminist critiques in my opinion.

[@adelaenriquezarroyo9247]

Where does the concept of fuckfriend land here? IS It about finding intimacy soon? ...I dont think so. What about relations in which feelings are not involved. Do you think this exists or is It just a symptom of destructuralized society. What do these kind of relations tend to surge in depauperate clases?

[@yamataichul]

This might sound out of topic, I've had an online friend in my teens where we used yo roleplay preexisting characters in media. She introduced me to all the cursed tags like guro and dead dove/do not eat. I always thought of it as wild and gross, I never understood the appeal but I understand it was a venting vacuum for abused victims like her... Dark romance might be worse because is more "grounded" and sometimes real life inspired 😢

[@orion3788]

There is a low amount of literature on fantasy but anecdotally it seems to be part of a pavolovian response and I feel the way media is depicted does internalise abuse in society. Although that's an inferred unknown unknown there is no rigor behind that

[@pedrova8058]

"The Piano Teacher" is a great movie/novel related to this topic. Fantasy works because it's the displacement, fetishization of something, it's not the thing itself. I would venture to say that, most of the time, when these fantasies “come true,” they are not as satisfying as they were in the imagination. I think the whole issue revolves more around psychological issues of the individuals, how people embody the social (politics, economics, gender roles, etc.); It's obvious that the idea "the private is political" implies many contradictions and unresolved things (no matter how progressive or liberal our thinking may be). Deep down, self-domestication _ completely subjecting the emotions/the body to reason (politics) - does not always work (at least not 100%). The whole bdsm thing is the opposite exercise: as what I like, what feels good in the body (domination/humiliation, pain, philias, etc.) cannot be explored in a "safe" way in any random context, we have to rationalize it, and create a set of strongly codified practices and discourses, that make that safe exploration possible. Fantasy works for the sake of transgression; "don't do that" has always been a driving force (in a very performative (acting out) way)

[@Weissenschenkel]

It boggles my mind that some women complain about domestic violence but at same time they seem to be okay with BDSM sub roles. Apparently, physical violence with consent seems something acceptable. By the way, I agree 100% with you on the jealousy thing. And as a side note, I believe (and I could be wrong) that women cheat as much as men do; the difference lies in the discretion, because women keep their affairs secret, while men love to brag about theirs.

[@RapidBlindfolds]

yeah its like self harming is wrong and should be dealt with a therapist - but don't 'kinkshame' someones knife kink! self abuse is harmful, but someone else abusing you with your consent is empowering?

[@ferchism]

If vanilla sex isn't pleasurable for some women, then hetero women who have vanilla sex don't experience pleasure. Why would these hetero women hv sex then? For men's pleasure. In Spanish that's called "deberes maritales" aka performing wifely duties: the old gendered belief that women owe their husbands sex, while a women's desire or libido or pleasure isn't even taken into consideration. I think the idea of having sex as an act of service isn't as progressive as kinkshaming makes it sound.

[@glenmarijnissen7144]

This video is sponsored by squarespace

[@MosaicF]

I'm curious to hear about your views on Louise Perry's book 'The case against the sexual revolution'. 🤔

[@charliewatts7577]

i feel like this ignores so much about how media is known to be healing - my mother works as a drama therapist, a lot of healing that she helps with is people exploring their abuse and experiences in safe ways (like storytelling) - so many women who have been through that find comfort in these stories for that reason also i feel like someone choice of media doesn't mean they agree with what is being depicted we are fine with heavily violent media and don't say someone is condoning violence if they watch it, but any form of abuse or emotional harm cannot be consumed unless it is "done right" rather than trying to dictate the media that is created, we should instead focus on educating on media literacy and how fiction does not equal reality, as well as how to read characters (is this character shown in a positive light just because they are the protagonist? why are the actions they do harmful / why are they not? do you agree with their actions? ect.) romanticisation is also subjective - one person may see something as romanticisarion whereas another may see it as realistic and healing - killing stalking and lolita are both brilliant examples of this phenomenon

[@spirall2100]

irrelevant to the video but i just want to thank you for speaking up about palestine. I have come to respect you even more after all this. So many people I've followed for ages let me down but u didn't. Thank you queen.

[@danam6615]

Just a small part of the video. But I would be interested in hearing your thoughts about some of what Louise Perry has to say about open relationships and the sex positivity movement. She has some interviews on youtube plus an interesting book on the topic 😊 loved your video as always

[@AliceCappelle]

i talk about her in my upcoming book 👀

[@Penterror]

@@AliceCappelle W capitalist

[@yuordreams]

I'd love it if you did some investigating into "hoe math", a channel that seems very interesting. It's an incel who seems to be looking at his issues with dating, but doesn't seem to understand women or think they're people. It's concerning since he's growing quite a lot.

[@jamesrichie3188]

I feel seen.

[@andiralosh2173]

You remind me of the SURPRISE gay memes where (mostly) dudes feign homophobic dynamics, only to be blatantly queer. This kind of transgressive comedy is relatively new at this scale and I love it

[@lloroshastar6347]

I wonder how long before the usual suspects turn up to raid the comments and decry feminism as the greatest evil or insist Alice will be forever lonely or brag about how wonderful being an abuser is.

[@ducadimantova91]

Great analysis as always, but again some of the points you make just leave me dumbfounded. The "if you're comfortable in your own skin, you wouldn't feel jealous" thing is incredibly naive, I mean come on. Most people don't function that way. It's not even a question of cheating. If you're in an open relationship and that works for you and all parties are on board, fine, who am I to judge. But to try and paint it like it's a super-reasonable thing for everyone, even on a theoretical level, that's fucking wild. There's more stuff that doesn't sound right to me but I'm too lazy to point it out

[@fallingasaleaf]

Ok so this is going to be a VERY LONG COMMENT. Some premises first: - I’m Italian, I live in Italy and English is not my first language. - I’m in my early 30s, not on goodreads not on tiktok not on facebook but still living through this discourse on twitter but in a very queer space. - I’m familiar with the genre because “read one you’ve read it all “it’s a really poorly written genre most of the time. This “discourse” is a tale as old as time. I’ll start saying that it’s not literature job or responsibility to educate readers/women on what is a toxic relationship, what is abuse and what is consent or what is agency. It is society’s job first and foremost. It is also society’s job to teach how to read and contextualise even when a story might be the worst story ever written. I’ll never support policing contents and themes because that would be censorship. The real main issue here is only 1: Publishers are pushing these “authors” novels because they sell and it’s still Publishers disingenuous choice to sell certain books to a demographic audience that should not read it. As for any adult woman/reader in the year of the Lord 2023 that does consume certain media and isn’t able to understand it no matter how much romanticised they are… I really think it’s on them and can’t be “everybody’s problem”. You see, one can write about “dark themes in a fictional relationship” for a lot of reasons even doing it as a self indulgent act in the most problematic way you can imagine… it’s still audience’s responsibility to discern that a relationship depicted in that way is toxic and finding it hot for some reasons would still be valid because… you know… two thoughts can coexist at the same time. This is the power of fiction and of a fictional context in which fictional characters that aren’t real people because they don’t exist, engage in toxic dynamics. I think it’s necessary to start from the roots: educate people especially the youngsters through other type of books, educational books, content creators video on youtube that do give an actual input on these issues so that they know how to understand and process what they read/watch/consume. Let people be free of writing and explore themes otherwise we will definitely go backwards. Lastly, I don’t know how much it aligns with feminism, the whole “I’m infiltrating into a FB group of Desperate Sexually Frustrated Housewives and I’m doing it with some prejudice and a judgmental mental approach “ I look forward to reading your book!

[@malvavisco10]

Genre in English is a loanword from French, so you know it’s pronounced the same way (basically) as the French do, it’s not pronounced “Jenner” in English

[@AliceCappelle]

Ah yes i know but I keep pronouncing it wrong 🙃

[@91722854]

Wonder what you think of the movie called "Fair Play" 2023

[@drzeworyj]

the guy on the right looks like Alice's male twin.

[@zainmudassir2964]

Abusive romance is weird imo

[@jayquanfloyd9384]

Kinda easy, just stop dating these types of men youre going for.

[@Captaiesqueleto]

They love to complain about the clinically insane guys yet they’re not going to go for the Destiny type of guy, but he does let his wife get her back destroyed by other men so they might go for the kuck so they can have their cake and eat it too

[@ishangimhan6112]

I dont follow celebrities i don't know the full situation, 2:54 is perfectly reasonable ask from your girlfriend. what are you smoking, call that is going too far😂

[@aniekanakai]

6:34 it is sexually liberating, but it not ethical