LEARN TO MASTER SCALES ON GUITAR | Never get lost on the fretboard again | TOM QUAYLE

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[@tomquayleguitar]

Hey everyone - I really hope you all enjoy this video. There's no snake oil or quick fix solutions at play here, just what I consider to be solid, useful information and approaches to help you really get to grips with any scale anywhere on the fretboard. I've worked using these methods for years (it's even easier now Solo is out) and it's really given me a solid foundation that means I never get lost, even over the most complex of chord changes. I hope it helps you - if so, let me know in the comments section and feel free to tell me about the methods you use to learn scales on the fretboard. All the best, stay safe and happy practicing! Tom

[@Rocker72]

You sir are a blessing! I love how you genuinely want us to REALLY get it and that you stress that there are no shortcuts. I’ve played some amazing solos in my head - but still haven’t been able to get my ideas from my head down to the fretboard. You’ve given me hope, renewed energy and excitement for moving forward and develop as a player. Forever grateful! Love the app! Sincerely - Jonas from Stockholm

[@bergsofcanada2757]

You are brilliant. I love you, but I'm going to continue to insist that you cannot call the second degree of a scale the 9th. The 9th is necessarily an octave above the second that is why it is called the 9th right? I don't care if there's a context where you want to call the second degree of the scale the 9th That would just be a casualty then in my quest to simplify music theory for everyone everywhere so that they can understand it. For example I no longer deal with the words natural minor. I will only say aeolian mode. I will only say harmonic minor or melodic minor or etcetera. There is no natural minor it is only aeolian. Someone would tell me I'm wrong to say this but I don't care about that person. I am about making this make more sense. Everything needs to evolve and progress. Sorry for blathering on about this but this is a big deal to me. Make it make sense. So much of my life has been beleaguered by dim people trying to teach me theory in music and not really knowing how to do it. So that's why I'm this reactionary

[@desirogers8091]

Kia ora from New Zealand. My scale is a circle, story is center, theory the perimeter. My best playing is always when facts fuse with purpose making a full circle. Spot on genius work Rangatira Tom. Noho ora mai

[@danielst-germain1728]

I`ve always been a "technician" focusing on technique more than a musician. I bought the SOLO app when the android version was released. And now it`s absolutely necessary. Could not live without it. I feel like I am becoming a real musician and this feeling is amazing.

[@eddierey5202]

It's very humble of you to say in most of your videos that Solo is not a requirement for the lesson, but it IS one of the best little tools out there!

[@warendeez2564]

24:52. Too true! If you're looking through these comments wondering if this approach works and it worth the time, it totally is! I have in no way yet mastered this and am still just working on the intervals in a major scale, but I jammed over a backing track earlier and my improv has never sounded so good! I practiced this for a good bit over the last 3 days, and I finally broke out of the pentatonic scale and other shapes I knew and was stuck in, so I can not wait to tackle other scales soon! If you're reading this, discipline yourself and push through, this stuff will be worth it 🤘

[@alessandro9740]

hey, how is your progress?

[@zvonimirtosic6171]

Quote, "I finally broke out of the pentatonic scale …" The pentatonic scale was the heavy anchor that held the popular guitar music the 20th century boringly repetitive and predictable. Pentatonic, pentatonic … it is regurgitated in all sorts of styles, from folk to blues, rock, surf, metal, even pop etc., only with different "effects" added on top.

[@bhargavpandya9189]

i think i'm really getting addicted to your channel! i've never been a fan of music theory for the past 7 years of playing guitar... but you always make things so clear and come up with a unique approach to learning! i wish i'd had this knowledge sooner

[@guitarbizzar5524]

This is a juggernaut of a lesson! It will take time, but man, you will be a complete animal if you learn this with most of the scales!

[@willarroz6703]

Right

[@simonm3889]

Practicing how to practice. Difficult to wrap your head around but this is a great example of this.

[@Chord_The_Seeker]

I know that a lot of people make hyperbolic comments about KZbin video lessons like this, but, sincerely, this is the best lesson I’ve seen yet. I have come across the concept of visualizing the fretboard in terms of intervals rather than scale shapes before, and was fascinated by it, but until now, I’ve never seen it demonstrated in a clear and useful manner. I actually have the Solo app, but haven’t used it yet, because I didn’t know how, nor did I really understand what it was for. Now I at least have one excellent use for it.

[@jep3305]

Do yourself a favor: Get the Visualizing the Fretboard Tutorial and get to work! Nothing like this approach, but it doesn't get served to you. You have to put in the work. Good luck!

[@tomquayleguitar]

Thanks awesome! Thanks so much and glad you enjoyed it.

[@Nikoo033]

The “start the scale from a different finger each time” approach is definitely a must try! Thanks!

[@Shaymitch13]

I’m beginning to understand the fretboard with Sølo and feel motivated to practice now 🙂

[@theqrm]

Fantastic! Have been looking on KZbin for a logical scale practice for ages now. Have downloaded Solo and found that it will even work with my guitar unplugged 🙂

[@ringtherong4372]

The only person that explains this this way, simply amazing Tom!

[@apurbaoverdrive]

SOLO for android please!!

[@tomquayleguitar]

It's just weeks away now, all being well!

[@apurbaoverdrive]

@@tomquayleguitar thank you, I am so happy :)

[@exylestinozo8182]

@@tomquayleguitar thank you!!! looking forward for the android version!!!! :-) excited to relearn my scales :-)

[@ihasmario]

Weeks you say? Fingers crossed

[@anomalousresult]

@@ihasmario FYI solo's out on android

[@jackgreene4868]

I came for a guitar lesson with Tom Quayle and by god I got a guitar lesson by Tom Quayle …. Awesome

[@sergeyromashkin7876]

Love those high-level thinking topics.

[@tomquayleguitar]

Me too!

[@apurbaoverdrive]

This is a great technique to learn the scales, thank you Tom.

[@tomquayleguitar]

My pleasure!

[@jorgemartinez42069]

I love the Solo app, thanks Tom! To note, I really wanted a PC version of this app so that I don't need to make a bunch of noise playing my amp loud enough for my phone mic to pick up the notes accurately. After scratching my head a bit, I figured out an incredible solution. I downloaded an Android emulator called BlueStacks on my computer and set up Solo on there. It even creates a desktop shortcut as if it was a native PC program. Then I had to download Voicemeeter Banana, which is a free virtual audio routing software. I then set it up to take the audio input of my Helix amp modeler going into the computer via USB and then it splits that off into a "virtual Aux output". I can then go into the BlueStacks settings and change the microphone input to the Voicemeeter Aux channel. This then tricks the virtual android phone into thinking the pure audio output from my modeler is like a phone mic picking up the sound of the amp in the room with the benefit of not having to use an actual crappy phone mic that is trying to sort out the guitar from the room noise. This has the benefit of letting me play late at night with headphones on AND makes the note tracking of Solo WAY MORE accurate and speedy. No more notes not being registered by the app! Let me know if you need help setting this up. It took an afternoon of fiddling but is actually incredible now that it's working.

[@DanGizzi]

I learned the typical mode shapes for the major scale like most people do. At first I thought it would be very hard to essentially switch my neurological patterns to think in this intervallic way vs. the shapes, but honestly they complement each other very well. My memory of the shapes is almost like a muscle memory fallback for moving through these intervallic fingerings. I haven't had any issues learning to think in this way.

[@user-mn3vt2sl1m]

I've found that, the shapes are a fall back for my intervalic understanding. But that gap is narrowing

[@curtdeschamp5585]

Looking forward to this. Got my guitar and beer ready. Thanks, Tom.

[@tomquayleguitar]

Hope you found it useful!

[@curtdeschamp5585]

@@tomquayleguitar, extremely helpful. Thanks. I've got your app and Visualizing the Fretboard tutorial. Wish I had all this info years ago.

[@luboetr]

Amazing! Phrygian dominant is my favorite scale! 😍

[@tomquayleguitar]

I never really used it, but love it now.

[@luboetr]

@@tomquayleguitar is so strong man....it contains b2 for Phrygian, major 3 for MAJOR and b6 & b7 for minor! Its awesome! 😀

[@JnWayn]

This is one of the very best lessons on improvisation that there is. Hard work but hey, if you wanna learn a creative skill you cant get around that and shouldn't want to

[@Takianagi]

Man this is great insight! I just got your visualization of the fretboard lesson and have had solo since my instructor suggested it and I'm ready to master this! Hope all is well with you Tom! 🙏🎸🎶🔥

[@chadmurphyplays]

This is an absolutely brilliant technique for understanding scales, and Solo is a hugely helpful tool to help get it done. Stellar video, Tom.

[@bumrecordingstudios]

Great set of examples. Excellent lesson and very helpful direction

[@cryptoskywalker1714]

Interesting exercise. Tedious, but eminently useful. Any exercise that discourages noodling is time well spent. I found it useful to use the root as a pedal note while I ran through the exercise. It reminded me what I was comparing the degree of the scale to, and also turned the exercises into a sort of sequence exercise. Especially when beginning with the middle, ring and pinky, it created and extra layer as a technical exercise. Because ultimately you want to be able to reach these notes effortlessly from wherever you are. It also made it much easier to ignore any ingrained scaled shapes.

[@andymusic6943]

Just finally found and downloaded solo. Now let the hard work begin!

[@jimbaker2565]

This is very effective, been using scale shapes for years, this takes it to the next level, the app is worth it as well, Thx

[@tonisiret5557]

This is the "Marshmallow Test" for guitarists. Could've done with you on my BA Music in 2002 Tom, better late than never!

[@MeanMaoriMean555]

Really appreciate this Pow-wow Tom. So much value in this particular lesson that you have put together for us, as with all content that you willingly give. Much appreciated 🙏

[@ronnieodriscoll9649]

Get Tom's fretboard visualization tutorial to compliment this material. This is clearly the most efficient way to tackle scales and learn the fretboard. Great resource video as always.

[@ronnieodriscoll9649]

@@Stringprodigy if you are new to this intervallic two point shape approach the tutorial goes through each permutation with a pdf print out for a reference. It then shows how you can apply the information when working through chord changes. You can completely work everything out yourself however as a newbie to this way of approaching scales and chord tone improvisation, I found it really helpful.

[@lydiian.motifs]

@@ronnieodriscoll9649 how do you print out the PDF reference guide for intervallic functions from solo app?

[@joshuamonks5921]

Without a doubt the best lesson I have ever watched on scales! (Saved it to my favourites!) I was just wondering if you have a similar system/approach to chords such as 7ths etc Many thanks for the upload Tom :)

[@thejeffkershner]

This is perfect timing for me. Thanks Tom!

[@WickBeavers]

I’ve not thought about it much- which is your point- but I’ve run up and down scale shapes for years. And I’ve never felt MORE like a hamster on a wheel. This lesson, Tom, I can see, will get me off the wheel AND out of the cage, thanks a lot. I do have your app and have never been sure why I’d use it. You’ve nicely explained that herein as well- merry merry!

[@douglasjefferson1569]

As soon as Solo is available in the Apple store for users in Jamaica 🇯🇲 I’ll buy it.

[@japhetzila6235]

A huge thank for this technique!!

[@acidrockpro]

Listen to Tom and here's why!: I DON'T use his tuning and I DO learn great ideas from him that CAN apply to your own practice even in DROP D and OPEN tunings aswell as 5ths tuning! In short; TOM JUST KNOWS THINGS!👏👏👏👏👏

[@oliverschultes6896]

Thanks for sharing, Tom! And great to see "The Painted World" poster on your wall!

[@zvonimirtosic6171]

When playing in real time and improvising, scale formula helps. But when composing a work for a few different instruments, you really must know exact notes of each scale.

[@anovopachanga7151]

You're an awesome teacher!

[@yuvrajchhetri8687]

Super lesson! Thanks. God bless you

[@ericjean8028]

Enlightening! You’re a genius! Thanks a lot for your sharing

[@imranuddin5526]

wonderful way to look at the scales, and absolutely amazing tutorial

[@Fernandozada]

You don´t have to buy Solo but I recomend. Amazing app. Loving it

[@tomquayleguitar]

So happy that you're enjoying the app - thanks!

[@operatingnurse]

FOMO Android user over here.

[@Fernandozada]

@@operatingnurse some friends waiting for it too. I too to use on windows with Bluestack! Rsss I prefer to use apps on my computer too.

[@marlobrandon6358]

I'm studying jazz guitar at lcom with Jiannis, your old friend I believe, fretboard visualisation is what I'm struggling with most, if I try practice scales or arpeggios it just sounds like that's all I'm playing when I improvise, and I tend to lose where I am in the changes. Its like I'm in a tunnel and I can only visualise the few notes that surround the current area that my ears have guided me to in the moment on the fretboard, its weird! Improvising just really baffles me honestly, and then if I learn vocabulary its like I can't visualise the arpeggio or scale anymore, just the fingering of the vocabulary and I'l run out of things to play quick, doesn't even feel like im truly improvising, just going through lines I've composed. Also I can't seem to visualise everything layered on top of each other, its either only scale, arpeggio, or something else haha. Ah its a big struggle for me made me think maybe I'm more of a composer than a improviser.

[@scotthall8502]

thanks for this Tom great post - I'm looking forward to the android app!

[@tomquayleguitar]

Thanks!

[@Hexspa]

Been using this. Seems to help. Definitely exploring unfamiliar fingerings and strengthening my memory of interval patterns.

[@voronOsphere]

Thanks, Tom!!!! Time to dig in here! EDIT! Great Tutorial, Tom! Very eye & ear opening demonstration! Amazing improvisation at the end of the lesson!

[@fredyrocazaurus8420]

Great lesson. Thanks Tom. You're the man

[@chrisdaviesguitar]

Phrygian Dominant is also good for rock and metal.

[@toetz4491]

" the shortcuts = instant gratification then the long term dissatisfaction " Thats me ! lol. Thanks again Tom..

[@kevon217]

Love your videos. Just got the solo app. Great tool.

[@TimvanCann]

I've been exploring this way of thinking for a while now, and while it's a real mindshift after 25 years of playing it's extremely liberating. Especially when trying to follow chord changes. What is not clear to me yet is how you visualize the rest of the scale notes? For example a standard rock song is usually in one key, say E Aeolian. If the song uses a D chord, would you then immediately think: D Mixolydian? Or would you play 1-3-5-b7 of D and choose in the moment between say a b9 and a 9? So, do you think in modes, or only the chord tones and fill in the rest however you feel like?

[@woodward_alan]

Looking forward to the Android version!

[@tomquayleguitar]

Coming in a few weeks, all being well!

[@reanimator9]

great lesson Tom, thank you... the hard part, I guess, is to apply the same principle to all the notes of the scale, so knowing the formula for each mode

[@danspitalnik]

I can't wait for that App to come out on Android.

[@ChrisCGuitars]

Don't cheat, be disciplined with yourself.... I might need a safe word working on this haha

[@tomquayleguitar]

Haha

[@jeanounou]

I like this approach, and the improv at the end sounds totally diff with 3nps.

[@macsattic7155]

Tom I absolutely love your videos and your teaching style. With all respect, why would you use a weird tuning when you are making a teaching video only to always be forced to tell your students to "disregard my tuning." It's needlessly confusing and honestly a bit of a strange decision.

[@Michael-pm1tq]

So when are you going to release the And....y Timmons collaboration? I was just wondering seeing as you both are Ibanez artists and all.

[@tomquayleguitar]

HAHA!

[@DavidBeebee]

😹 genuine lol well played!

[@kostasjazz]

Thank you

[@caopgtr]

hi tom why the "b9 b13" instead "b2 b6" ?

[@kuwayetkuwayet8474]

I see! and download it!

[@JimsMusicJourney]

I always have broken scales into patterns first then applied a similar approach as this. Then I would tackle the chords for corresponding scale.

[@tomquayleguitar]

Great approach!

[@ernometsola]

My approach has been as follows... First learn the scale pattern in a specific area on the fretboard while the corresponding chord is looping on the backround so i can hear how it sounds. First starting from all the root notes in that position going up in the scale to the highest note, down to the lowest note and then back to the note i started with.. Then starting from all the other notes and doing the same. So the order of the starting notes for me is 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13. It's been pretty good approach for me.

[@andy022419942004]

Does anyone know how to combine scale with arpeggio with this two point system. How to see the scale in current key and the chord tone in current chord at the same time? By Tom’s system, I can only see scale and chord related to one root. When soloing, do I have to see the interval related to root of the key and interval related to the root of the chord? That is hard for me.

[@sacredgodslayer]

What about Solo for desktop?

[@igorgoga7985]

these large shapes is what made me quit playing- until I discovered Tom's approach to fretboard vis

[@tomquayleguitar]

Great to hear! Thanks.

[@Rhythmrift388]

Hey Tom. The solo app is amazing i learned chord structure from it very easily. Is there any option where can specific chord for root third and 5the practice etc. eg i want to practice c major and D minor first. Then i wan to do C major and G major. Currently the app pop up with other chords in the middle such as E minor A minor and so on,

[@brnsnaribm1371]

Gem 💎

[@aurelienguardiola7136]

Hey, i'm going to start this TODAY ! I'm about to buy solo too but your approach man ! I never Seen it before on KZbin so I really think it gonna help me ! Do you have a advice for what scale to start with ? The basic major imo but idk. BIG thanks from France ! I discovered you on the feat with Martin Miller on "isn't she lovely" and since that I can't stop to listening to you two guitar genius ! Ty

[@andyracksthecams]

Great and timely video. Thank you. I can see the beautiful L5T or is it an L20T. I have both. Mega.

[@tomquayleguitar]

That's an L20T and I love it.

[@V8LC100]

Thx for the lesson Tom and I have purchased the app and it is great. Why wouldn't we just call it b2 and b6 in Phrygian Dominant?

[@Hexspa]

You can call it that. They’re practically the same. b9 and b13 are the cool ways of naming them in a scale. The thing is, chords and scales are the same thing.

[@dawidwarenczuk3874]

b2 and b6 are the exact same thing as b9 and b13, but knowing certain intervals as 9's, 11's and 13's too can help out a great deal when figuring out chords with certain extensions :)

[@jorgemartinez42069]

Apologies for reviving an old thread, but any idea why in this video they label b2 as b9 and b6 as b13, but *not* label the 4 as an 11? Is there any logic as to why someone would use the upper chord extension numbers for only some of the notes of the scale and not others?

[@slickrick109]

Why is it called the flat 9 instead of flat 2? Is it because of flat 9 is an octave?

[@Amatteus]

H Tom.. when i look at your videos. I do not know if you are in stndrd tuning. or not... and that confuses me. Could you please specify?. Thnks

[@CambiodeRumbo]

Tom... I love you more than my bass 😂😂😂 Thank you!

[@q11v]

Thanks for the interesting lesson. What are your thoughts on using drones for context?

[@Hexspa]

Probably fine to incorporate them. It’s no substitute for developing your relative pitch, though. Start doing tonedear.com for a few minutes each day and sing along. Totally free site.

[@frosty_soda]

Tom, do you need to know the scale before hand? Or can you literally just learn it from this app? Maybe putting the h wh h w h w w formula at the bottom too?

[@izzatjoe4328]

Hi tom, love this app.. would there be a companion app, or an update that will let us key in our own chord changes/own songs..Like the irealb..

[@alessandro9740]

14:48

[@rockstarjazzcat]

Tom knows! I’m partial to learning the structures within a restricted context to reduce the permutation explosion that loads down guitarists relative to say, pianists. I’m biased towards my FordScales II system which focuses on learning the ‘functions’ within a 6 note per string chromatic scale starting on A. Essentially single string playing folded into six chromatic notes per string. The app is perfect to use with any similar system!

[@rockstarjazzcat]

Phrygian dominant... Not so scary with the focus on the musical elements!

[@ronnyskaar3737]

Flamenco scale

[@steveechoesguitar3295]

Hi. A little confused by the Phrygian Dom intervals. Shouldn’t that be a 3b? Or is it the raised 3rd that makes it dominant?

[@julienn.6794]

Thank you Tom! Excellent video!! is the app solo available for Android? Or could you tell me when it will be please?

[@tomquayleguitar]

Thanks - it's coming for Android in the next few weeks, all being well.

[@fletmok3548]

Like Yoda said ‘You must unlearn what you have learned ….and seek out Master Tom Quayle and download some real shiz!’ 😎🎸🔥

[@tomquayleguitar]

Haha!

[@SushantGuptaSGdude100rocks]

When is the app coming out for android? :)

[@bartosik321]

Quick question, are you playing in fourths tuning?

[@al-han3804]

what us flat 9 and flat 13

[@picksalot1]

What is the rationale for using b9 and b13 instead of b2 and b6? The scale intervals relate back to the Major scale, yet I don't think anyone counts the intervals of the Major scale as: 1, 9, 3, 4, 5, 13, 7. Doing so seems to complicate matters unnecessarily right in the beginning.

[@tomquayleguitar]

For some scales it is more useful to define the notes in relation to how they function as extensions on the chord generated by the scale. This is usually only done for scales that generate dominant 7th chords with altered (flattened or raised) 9ths and 13ths. This scale (Phrygian Dominant) generates a 7b9 and 7b9b13 chord, so we tend to describe the scale's formula using those two interval functions as opposed to b2 and b13. It's just common practice in contemporary (non-classical/traditional) harmony. Another example would be the Altered scale - 1 b9 #9 3 b5 #5 b7

[@picksalot1]

@@tomquayleguitar Thanks for the explanation of where and why those particular intervals are used.

[@Tvaroh]

@@tomquayleguitar as Solo user I would love to have an option to configure this behavior. Could be much less-surprise to not see those 9 and 13 by default, at least in the scales trainer.

[@tomquayleguitar]

@@Tvaroh I'm sure we can implement that at some point!

[@victorcurtis6400]

To be honest given that I’m already having a time wrapping my head around all of this I kind of wish it would just say flat 2nd and flat 6. Seems like this is throwing in extra hoops for my brain to jump through when it is already hanging on for dear life.

[@adonislajara6955]

when it's going to be available in Latin America?

[@israelpascua1166]

Is the solo app is one time purchase or it has monthly dues? Thanks

[@playmoreguitar5393]

I would love this Solo App... Look down at my Samsung... sigh

[@aurelienguardiola7136]

i have a question, imagine ur doing c major, so 1234567. And u moving on A major, the finger shape so the visual shape still the same but the numbers are 12#345#6#71. So, do we train C major and to do another major scale we just think the shapes or we retrain that thinking about the right numbers ? Because if I think based on the C major only, i will say that 4 frets after the A on E string is a C but it's a C# so I do the major scale but i'm not thinking the right numbers.

[@davido8765]

You don‘t want to relate everything to c major. So if you‘re in A major it‘s still 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, because these intervals have specific sounds, the intervals of the major scale stay the same, but which notes these are changes depend on which key you are in. I can recommend toms video „how to visualize the fretboard“ where he goes more in depth about intervals.

[@HarlanHarvey76]

Any news on the Android release for SOLO that is worth sharing?😀

[@tomquayleguitar]

Yep - we enter beta testing next week and plan to release in a few weeks all being well.

[@Tvaroh]

Hey Tom, why does Solo spell 2 and 6 as 9 and 13?

[@Tvaroh]

@@Stringprodigy thanks!

[@MrXeberdee]

Nice to show how to learn the fretboard, but you might as well learn it through licks rather than through abstractions such as an interval or a scale. Developing an understanding of music is better through vocabulary and phrases rather than permutations of musical scales, modes, intervals I think. You can never spend too much time playing music, but you can fast sound 'scaly' and distracted from music permeating intervals or parent scales, unless you want that sound - some do I suppose. Most effective musical way is to play the same phrase across strings in as many ways as possible, and know which parts of the chord you are using that lie under your fingers and how it sounds - keep some tempo. I'm surprised how many elite musicians have only a basic or even no understanding of intervals or scales. If you asked Wes or Django to play you a minor 6th or a lydian scale they wouldn't know where to start, but if you played them a complex phrase or a set of changes, they would play it right back at you and develop it all over the neck - not many modern players can do that. Why? because schools these days waste time teaching scales instead of music.

[@SteelMaty]

Really interesting, I think could really boost the knowledge of the fretboard, especially with Harmonic minor and Melodic, which are quite ugly sounding scales by themselves 😂

[@yanivweinstock9764]

will the app be availble in israel?

[@TheMrMRsmoke]

Tom “reverse psychology” quayle.

[@davidlegalley1161]

👍🏼👍🏽

[@Sutich]

Why does this say b9 and b13 rather than b2 and b6 in the scale formula? Does anyone have a quick way to explain that?

[@RobbenBanks153]

It’s the convention. Musicians say 1, 9, 3, 11, 5, 13, 7 ... probably just to confuse guitar players 😆

[@jorgemartinez42069]

@@RobbenBanks153 Any idea why the app and Tom's explanations didn't use 11 instead of 4 in this video? I'm familiar with the concepts of upper extensions and the corresponding numbers, but I've never seen anyone mix and match 9's and 13's with a 4.

[@maztashreda7449]

is there a thing called "Flat 1" ? just curious :)

[@V8LC100]

I don't think so. That would be the 7 I believe...but happy to be correct by those wiser than I.

[@Hexspa]

Without researching it, I’ll say not in tonal harmony. The reason is that everything in tonal harmony is relative to a fixed center - the ‘one’ aka the tonic. That said, you can definitely end up in situations where the key center is flattened. For instance, in the key of C, the IV has the tonic as the perfect fifth. If you were to play a half-diminished chord there, you’d end up with a Cb. Maybe a better example would be playing a bVII7(b9). The qualification here is why would you do that in isolation? Those are just theoretical examples that I’ve never seen in practice. Usually those chords are used in the context of a cadence. If that cadence points to a new key, then technically that Cb would belong to the target key. Fm7(b5) - Bb7(b9) - Ebm In those chords, the Cb is the b6 of Em and not the b1 of C. Even so, your ear might think it’s a b1 during the transition. I’d have to listen to that because it’s hard for me to imagine it. Having said all that, atonal music is something I’ve never explored much so maybe more is possible there. I doubt it though because atonal means no tonic. The last thing I’ll say is that a #1 is more common. For instance, playing Ama instead of Ami as the VI chord. The solfeg syllable for that is ‘di’. For b1, it’s probably ‘da’ but, again, I’ve never seen it. As far as the tonic of a scale or chord in isolation, it doesn’t really make sense. It’s like dividing by 0.