TR&CI 40: Miirym & A Strange Legendary/Non-Legendary Interaction

In this episode of Tough Rules & Cool Interactions, I go into a little interaction between Miirym and a certain Clone type creature that has a strange interaction that I imagine could cause some confusion for a lot of players that would encounter it in a game.
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Rules covered in this episode are:
Nope
Music used in this video:
"Sunset Arthur" by Michael Wyckoff
#MTG​ #Magicthegathering​ #commander

[@otto9141]

That's a really cool deck idea, but i personally wouldn't be able to resist having some normal dragons in there as well. Imagine you're at like 5 or 6 miiryms and you cast an Old Gnawbone or like an Astral Dragon

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

But at 6 Miiryms, you cast another Clone, and now you're at 13 Miiryms... Then one more Clone and you're at 27 Miiryms!!! It's so explosive. But yeah, it is hard to give up the value that you generate from many of the other dragons out there, especially things like Terror of the Peaks so you don't have to worry about getting Aetherized.

[@NoBody-yr4uf]

astral dragon targeting panharmonicon.....

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

@@NoBody-yr4uf Get you calculator out...

[@NoBody-yr4uf]

@@ThisIsACommanderChannel I've been thinking about it during my work shift 😅

[@iambensummers]

That's an awesome deck idea, I may just have to build it now!

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

It should be fairly cheap too. Other than a couple, most clones are pretty cheap.

[@Thisnameisnottakenjk]

An interesting note is that since Moritte is a changeling that means it is itself actually a dragon and therefore it wouldn't be a "dragonless" deck.

[@Wabiman70]

I thought that Moritte was like spark double, that when entering the battlefield they become perfect copies of something and therefore they no longer have the ability to enter with counters, so if you cloned them, this clone would be a copy with changeling but without counters, what is the rule that I should see in this case?, to know if I am playing spark wrong

[@AnnoyingNewslettersPage6]

It's that last line of text where it says that it comes in with changeling and two +1/+1 counters. It's not copying counters that are already on the creature; it's adding them to a creature that has already copied a creature.

[@Wabiman70]

@@AnnoyingNewslettersPage6 sorry if I expressed myself badly, I'm not an english speaker, I was referring to the interaction between moritte and miirym, I understand that when moritte enters into play as a creature, it enters with changeling and 2 counters, but when it comes into play it no longer has the ability of "this creature enters with 2 counters" in the card, so I previously thought that when miirym sees him enter the battlefield, he would create a non-legendary copy of moritte, who is copy a creature, but with changeling and without counters. it would be different if it were as a progenitor mimic, because that card adds the ability "if it is not a token, it creates copies of itself"

[@joedoe7572]

That was honestly my first thought on how to build the deck when I saw Miirym spoiled. However, I personally would put a few other dragons in too, because I haven't been playing long enough to only deckbuild for the flavor

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

I love committing to a theme so much even though it isn't making the deck better. I have a lot of decks and have a wide range of power levels, so I like to make some that are very themed. I have a Tuvasa Enchantments deck and it runs zero artifacts, sorceries, instants, Planeswalkers, and it doesn't even run a Smothering Tithe because it makes artifacts. Sure that makes the deck worse, giving up Replenish really hurt, but I love it.

[@joedoe7572]

@@ThisIsACommanderChannel I definitely understand

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

@@joedoe7572 It's not easy. The temptation is real

[@brandyourfan9244]

Great idea man. Would love to see that deck in action!

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

Maybe one day I'll get around to starting my deck tech series. There's a bunch that I'd love to share.

[@joedoe7572]

@@ThisIsACommanderChannel How about starting a commander gameplay section too?

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

@@joedoe7572 One day. Gotta buy some quality cameras, mics, lights, things to dampen the echo, and organize a time with friends to play. I do really want to do that.

[@TraeKryzer]

This is super cool! If I understand it right, you have Miirym and play a clone. The Clone enters and makes a copy (cuz it's a dragon as it enters) but the original still gets sacrificed because it's a legendary copy of Miirym? So the first time you get 1 additional copy of Miirym. Then you get 3 additional copies (for 5 total) the second time? Cuz the real clone card can copy the nonlegendary token one and the two existing copies of Miirym make two more.

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

Mostly correct. The Legend Rule will let you pick wether you want to keep the Clone version or keep the OG, and then the other one or more that you don't pick just go to your GY (they're not sacrificed in the games eyes, as in they don't trigger anything that would care about a permanent being sacrificed). And yes, casting the first clone would leave you with 2 Miiryms, one of which is non-Legendary so that will be your new Clone option now. Each new clone you play will basically mean double + 1 Miirym. So from 2 you'll go to 5, then 5 goes to 11, 11 goes to 23, etc... And with most clones costing 4 or 5 Mana you can easily cast 2 in a single turn after you ramp some.

[@WrathfulVince]

yes and you dont even need to worry about that with certain clones like spark double. if you make a clone that is the secret agent you get an indestructible counter on it. if you get a clone that is stunt double you can summon a clone of a different etb dragon as if it had flash.

[@TraeKryzer]

​@@WrathfulVince Yes I know what other clones do. I know what indestructible and flash do.

[@WrathfulVince]

@@TraeKryzer im just sayin what im doing

[@gregboulton8230]

In my Miirym Build, I use all three of the Legend Rule workaround clones: the two Sakashimas and Spark Double. The other 8 clones will have the issue describe, but as you point out, after the first kinda-nombo its off to the races.

[@NewSchoolPOKERstrat]

Very cool idea. You oughta play twin flame and heat shimmer as well and Cursed mirror

[@iambensummers]

Suggestion: Can you talk about the interaction between an Overloaded Winds of Abandon and Archivist of Oghma? Winds of Abandon says "for each", but certainly Archivist wouldn't let you draw 20 cards for 20 exiled creatures, right?

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

Oh, yeah, good question. Searching a library is like drawing and discarding cards. Even when you're doing multiple of that action, it's technically just that many singular instances of it. So in the case of Winds overloaded, the opponents must search their library for each creature exiled, even if they don't want the land or want to search. They can fail to find the card, but each one would force them to search, so yes, you get a draw and life gain trigger for each one.

[@caseywellington4761]

@@ThisIsACommanderChannel woah that's so good!

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

@@caseywellington4761 Yup. It really makes me want WotC to make a legendary creature that cares about opponents shuffling. Running cards like Path, Chaos Warp, and others to force them to shuffle.

[@iambensummers]

@@ThisIsACommanderChannel This came up in a game recently and my opponent brought up Rule 701.19h, which seems to contradict this: 701.19h: An effect may instruct a player to search a library for one or more cards more than once before instructing a player to shuffle that library. This is the same as a single instruction for that player to search that library for all those cards. The player searches that library only once. It seems clear that for each player on Winds of Abandon, that player will only search once, since there is only one instruction to shuffle. Thoughts?

[@scabman1]

This deck idea is amazing! This comes from experience. I built this deck when he first came out. Just last week I ended the game with 17,492 copies of Miirym. It was amazing! If you have a deck list would love to compare.

[@Hanmacx]

For more fun with copyable values: Scute Swarm and Mindlink Mech

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

Ah Scute Swarm. The card that always garuntees the controller will have to get out their phone and use the calculator app.

[@MetaKaios]

And Scute Swarm's buddy, mutate. (Though usually if you're mutating Miirym, you have to put the mutant under Miirym so it stays a Dragon)

[@OmegaGrunt]

Fun take on Mirrym! Coincidentally I just finished my own clone deck, except I went with Denry Klin, Editor in Chief as the commander. Pumping up keyword counters & +1/+1s with Elspeth Resplendent, Tyrite Sanctum, and proliferate effects, saving them through Ozolith. With tax effects for early game protection, Propaganda/Ghostly Prison, Michiko Konda, etc. Super fun copying someone else's bomb except its +10/+10 flying, lifelink, first strike, vigilance. "Anything you can do, I can do better." : )

[@gregboulton8230]

Oh, and Adrix and Nev may not be a dragon or a clone, but it does wonderful things for the math of this deck. I believe the math checks out on giving over one of your clone slots.

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

Oh for sure, another token doubler is very powerful in addition to the others that green brings with it.

[@colinraiden-mcrae5539]

Now what you have to to is keep the clone and sent the original back to the Command zone so you can cast it again. Get some Ganax so you can cast Miirym infinitely.

[@scabman1]

I went hard into the clone package in my own game. One of the games I played the opponent was playing a Ganax deck and thought it was OK when I also had kindred of discovery... The table scooped before I could swing with my army of haste Miirym 😭

[@Adam-Madman]

I have this deck with many clone spells and some other dragons... I spend like 200$ and played against decks around 1000$ to 3000$... Now I can't play this deck without be arch enemy

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

Ha! That was my worry, that this would almost be too explosive and too consistent for casual play.

[@Adam-Madman]

@@ThisIsACommanderChannel Well, yes but also not really... From my experience, if your oponents know this deck, Miirym is target number one, so you need to be prepared for that and that can slow you even for two turns... That's why I decided not to make entire deck about clones... But yeah, when the engine is going, your oponents feel the power of simic with dragons 😎

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

@@Adam-Madman Is it fun to pilot, even when people are teaming up against you?

[@Adam-Madman]

@@ThisIsACommanderChannel It depends... Two players from my group like spells that make you reveal your hand and then you must discard and I really hate discard my cards... But when you know you are playing more budget friendly deck then others, everybody is against you and you are still able to win or make a big things at least... Yeah, it feels great, so I would say it's even more fun because it's more challenging... But We are all diferent type of players

[@WrathfulVince]

mine is a mix between shape changers and big etb dragons

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

Ah, so you're running a mix of the two? That's a smart call. 100% Miiryms is powerful from a shear amount of power that you're putting on the table, but you're missing out on a ton of value in other ETBs. Getting some other dragons out and then adding in some cheap CMC clones for keeping the mana curve lower is just nice.

[@WrathfulVince]

@@ThisIsACommanderChannel yeah it works really nice. having copies of just mirim a 6/6 dragon with ward 2 and flying is enough but when you get into summoning one game changer dragon the effects are felt at the table quite hard.

[@WrathfulVince]

Should i post my deck list?

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

@@WrathfulVince Feel free to.

[@Integer_Overload]

The only way I'd build a Miirym deck. I had a Tiamat deck for about a year and in done with dragons for now😂

[@waynesoniat3749]

Maybe this doesn't matter but on ETB you then have 2 Miiryms so you'd have to sacrifice one. Again it doesn't matter if the only goal is to trigger OG Miirym and get the copy. But the 2 cards can never be out at the same time unless you have something other than Miirym canceling the legendary rule. Let me know if I'm wrong. I built a Miirym deck the same way.

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

You're correct in that regard, all but one of your Legendary Miiryms will have to be sent to your GY, but the first trigger that Miirym does will make a token copy that isn't Legendary. So all of your new Clone type creatures you play will just enter as a copy of the non-Legendary version, so no more need to send any to your GY after that first one.

[@craig1287]

@@ThisIsACommanderChannel Yeah, then they snowball out of control from there. Miirym is like having your own Doubling Season in the command zone when using clones.

[@waynesoniat3749]

@@ThisIsACommanderChannel Ok so you have Original Miirym and nonlegendary token on the field. You cast Moritte as a copy of the NL token. Upon resolution Moritte is now a legendary Miirym so one has to go to the GY, right? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it lead to me removing the card in favor of one that one that simply copied the token so that I could keep the copier and not have to sacrifice anything beyond the process of making the first Miirym copy... 😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

@@waynesoniat3749 Correct. The Moritte will still be a Legendary permanent and it will have the full name of Miirym, so yes the Legend Rule will apply for it. But you still keep the token that was made as a copy of the Moritte version of Miirym.

[@waynesoniat3749]

@@ThisIsACommanderChannel Yeah it's a plus regardless. This is just one of those nit picking details. It's funny you made an episode about this as I've been going back and forth about its inclusion. Thanks for all your efforts.

[@gregboulton8230]

Just to finish the thought, the morrite itself will be a legendary copy of Miirym, so either your commander or the morrite will have to be sacrificed. The token you created would not be legendary so you'd wind up with two Miiryms on the field. Right? My Miirym deck is half dragons, half clones. I considered a no-dragon build, but I like having a Kindred Summons and Scourge of Valkas as wincons.

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

Ha! Yeah, I thought about making a dragon-less Miirym deck with pure clones just to see how many Miiryms I could manage to amass. Math is scary.

[@jasmin-mae506]

I allready figured out what was going to happen, Only because I have had so much experience in dealing with hubbies Volo deck. Lmao that thing can be a shit storm somedays and allot of rules were read on many nights. Id like to say im pretty well versed now 🤣.

[@dirkbaldorad3634]

I think I have to update my Adrix and Nev Deck.

[@brandonvoice8941]

if you're blinking these clones, i would think a copy of Orvar would be broken.... he would copy himself nonlegendary from Miirym.. then you'd blink a clone, only to create that many token copy's of Miirym before the blinked copy comes back down......

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

I think I may have just thrown up a little... That is such s nasty, disgustingly brutal thing. Dang, Orvar is just such a powerful card. I hadn't actually thought of adding him to a Miirym deck, probably because his power level as a Commander is too high for the groups that I usually play in. But if you're in higher power metas, then for sure rock that dude out.

[@jaxlevirader6421]

Have moritte enter as a copy of panharmonicon, make the storm player jealous

[@Badassest]

I would mutate onto a miirym then moritte so it can have even more ridiculous abilities, especially if its not a miirym commander but tiamat or ur-dragon so i can push the better mutate creature abilities like vigilance, menace, trample, haste, etc. (Under miirym ofcourse although if you mutate on top of miirym it wont be legendary and any clone/copy effect will be huge.

[@Badassest]

I also built a gods and dragons deck with miirym in it as well as mirrorbox, sakashima 1kF and the changeling artifact that makes everything changelings if those are in play miirym can make a ton of crazy copies! Imagine making non-legendary kaldhiem god/dragons! Or better yet- non-legendary kiki-jiki'smy goal is to make a maskwood nexus/eldrazi/miirym or a maskwood/blightsteel/miirym setup muah ha ha ha! Miirym is sick in a maskwood nexus build- moreso if you get multiple copies of ur-dragon or cost reducer effects or lord effects.

[@DatShepTho]

Scute Miirym

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

Too... Much... Math...

[@petertrifilo7557]

So for the token copy Im 90% sure that it does not enter with the counters.

[@scabman1]

It is. The og Moritte has legendary added to it's supper type as a copiable value. When the token from Miirym trigger enters it removes the legendary super type. The tokens from Miirym do not see the word text of Moritte as the Moritte on the battlefield "looks" exactly like Miirym it copied but is also legendary. So now the tokens will enter non legendary.

[@lokiofspirit]

Great deck idea, I love these sorts of whacky things. Question about deck building rules. You're not allowed to shuffle in such a way that you know the distribution of lands and spells in your deck, but what if you're playing all MDFC cards and have them all flipped to the land side, is your deck illegal?

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

Are you asking about this in regards to casual play, or is this for like a Modern or Vintage sanctioned event? For judges we have different levels of judging based on the event type and that governs how strict things are.

[@lokiofspirit]

@@ThisIsACommanderChannel I'm mostly a casual commander player, but my friend who plays modern mentions he has a bad matchup against oops all spells, and had explained to me roughly what the deck looks like.

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

@@lokiofspirit Ah, okay. When shuffling and when they're in your library, two sided cards are considered to be their front face, but when you get to a card that lets you 'play' the card you can choose what side to play. But in the deck, unless they're using sleeves that are not fully opaque then there's not much you can do that's shady. If sleeves are see through, gen people can do shady things while shuffling, which is why you always cut your opponent's deck.