Tracing, Cheating, and Imposter Syndrome - DraftsmenS1E19

Does copying from photo reference make you a fake artist? Is tracing considered cheating? Do you even have an art license?! We share our opinions about photobashing, tracing, and drawing from photos. We also discuss the debilitating effects of imposter syndrome and how it might sometimes be a good thing. Stan’s thang brings back childhood memories :)
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Andrew Loomis - Fun with a Pencil - amzn.to/2Vitr2G
Photobashing examples: David Kirk, Helio Frazao - proko.com/draftsmen-media/Pho...
Maxfield Parrish - proko.com/draftsmen-media/Max...
Clare Torry - Great Gig in the Sky - Dark Side of the Moon - Pink Floyd - amzn.to/2ATdvuq
Jessica Nguyen - @Jessketchin
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ABOUT PROKO:
Instructional How to Draw videos for artists. My drawing lessons are approachable enough for beginners and detailed enough for advanced artists. My philosophy is to teach timeless concepts in an entertaining way. I believe that when you are having fun, you learn better. I take pride in producing high quality videos that you will enjoy watching and re-watching.
ABOUT DRAFTSMEN
Stan Prokopenko and Marshall Vandruff are art instructors. If you love the arts, particularly the craft of drawing and painting and image-making… and you want to level up your skills or even make a living with your skills, we are here to answer your questions. We’re here to offer you advice, refer you to our resources, share your love of the craft and maybe inspire you! Learn to Draw - www.proko.com Marshall Vandruff. Subscribe to the podcast at bit.ly/DraftsmenPod
CREDITS:
Hosts - Stan Prokopenko (www.stanprokopenko.com), Marshall Vandruff (www.marshallart.com/)
Production Assistance - Brandon Storer, Charlie Nicholson ( shloogorgh), Sean Ramsey (www.peoplewhodrawstuff.com), Katrina Collins (www.katrinacollins.com)
Editing - Charlie Nicholson, Katrina Collins
Audio Engineer - Brandon Storer
Intro Animation - Cody Shank (codyshank.com/)
Intro Jingle - Tommy Rush ( / tommyrush )
Music Used with Permission Intro - The Freak Fandango Orchestra
Music by Clare Torry - Great Gig in the Sky - Dark Side of the Moon - Pink Floyd

[@ProkoTV]

Tell us a story of a person who became successful, but had their doubts.

[@xanthippus3190]

Me, except i'm not successful yet.

[@KiX-K4T13]

Like every story ever told of every adult person on Earth? For me personally, I have always had my doubts that I could be incredible at art and after spending many hours on working at it, I'm now at a level where I'm mildly satisfied by the result. But I endlessly beat myself up about it. I feel like a fraud at times. I want to be as good as LavenderTowne, and I've studied her style in an effort to create my own style, but...I'm scared that my style will be too close to hers. I don't want to ever be put in a position where she will accuse me of stealing her style. I guess it's not that serious, right? However, this is an example of what I think about when admiring someone's art. Then when I apply it, it feels like I'm doing something wrong. I have my own style, albeit it's not developed fully, but at the end of the day...it's safe to say that it won't look like anyone's style because deep down we all have our own thing. Our own way of processing what we see and then delivering it pen to paper.

[@h2relic721]

@@xanthippus3190 lol same

[@jasonbowman9521]

Just the two of you" arguing " is fun lol. :)

[@Silbusia]

I have some friends who are amazing artists but told me that they keep thinking about quitting art or stopping working as artists and posting it because they aren't good enough which is crazy because some of them even have a job as professional artists since many years, others get commissioned for a lot of money and have thousands of likes under their works (many people agree with me). Imposter Syndrome causes here another level of problem: I tell them they're really good but the moment I say it, even though it's completely honest, I don't feel good enough with my poor skills to decide so why would they listen to me? xDDD Crazy Imposter Syndrome Circle :D

[@DjoresH]

Marshall is just so pure, he is really pulling me back to this channel.

[@suhaibodat531]

Same

[@sarahkilley2622]

He looks like my Dad but he followed his dream. I think that's the main reason I stared consistently watching.

[@outdatedinvalidname]

The best advice my art mentor gave me was "Fail like you mean it".

[@angeliqueroux3017]

Biner Bear I love this!!

[@apfelninja]

Can I use this?

[@aciDCXIV]

Beautiful

[@safiasouiba9063]

Wow.

[@deebonash1495]

​@apfelninja no. This person owns your tongue and combinations of words are strictly copy written.... what da fuk. Just say, spray it, write it down! Who asks permissions from strangers what to do 😂?

[@javial484]

They look just like those cute old couples fighting about everything but loving each other more every day ;)

[@bjaanderson]

I cry every time 😢

[@arkthul8872]

@@Artem-sh3bb Use ArtRage 6

[@Leo-mu8kn]

I Stan

[@bendinsmore2808]

New Podcast idea: "Marshal's Eating Habits"

[@krisCrashTV]

Living off snacks is great! Until your doc tells you you have malnutrition.

[@RichardHannay]

I thought “imposter syndrome” was less about doubting your ability to make something and more about feeling like people finding out you’re actually not good enough and you’re a fraud.

[@KiX-K4T13]

I think both apply. You're right on the money, though Richard.

[@astrol4b]

It's something like "someone is paying me for this stuff but it's like super easy to do" but it's super easy only to you because you are overskilled.

[@olgierdvoneverec4135]

I mean its hard to fear someone will find out youre not good enough if you think your skill is actually good enough.

[@RichardHannay]

Reading the comments here, I think people are using the term wrong... from my understanding, it’s from the highly successful people who’ve already achieved the fame and adulation that the textbook definition of Impostor Syndrome applies to. These people tend to think, “I don’t deserve all the praise because I think I just got lucky”... despite their talent and success, they self-doubt their abilities and that people will really find out they’re a complete fraud. It’s more of a worry of how people will perceive them when the “truth” of their fraudulence is exposed so they tend to extensively criticize themselves.

[@olgierdvoneverec4135]

@@RichardHannay not quite, you dont have to be highly succesfull and adulated to have impostor syndrome, it is as simple as thinking im not as good as people say, im an impostor. sure the "text book" version includes fear of being "found out", but in reality is just the disonance between what you have archived and your own percived skill.

[@lior1299]

Wait wait wait. Marshal was going to tell us about a good book he was reading 2:07

[@rolanddeschain2176]

Exactly, he was going to make it his 'thing' and then... maybe they can make a 'later edit'. Or cover it in the next episode?

[@starjumper9330]

@@rolanddeschain2176 I hope they do!

[@variableeddie8000]

I love how it was the example of something less personal than food.

[@Starks95yt]

yeah i was hoping to find out about this book as well D:

[@jonmahashintina]

it was a cookbook. for salads.

[@tadlambert4236]

i work in the animation field, doing background along with character design and i won't lie we trace like crazy. We don't have time to be "nit picky artist" when we have a deadline.

[@suryatejasunny]

with the number of repetitions you guys have to go through if you don't trace, you gonna look for another job in just a few months into your career.

[@CashWiley]

I got stuck in a loop doing Loomis head abstraction, trying to master it, kept getting frustrated. Took Lucas Graciano's head drawing livestream and realized that although I hadn't mastered abstraction by a long shot, my head drawing was pretty darn good. I didn't see the things that needed the most tweaking in my Loomis/Reilly stuff until I worked at a finish level for critique. Now I'm going back to fundamentals to tighten those up. Repeat!

[@asyouwish9567]

I remember Marshall's first video. That was a little awkward. I can see where he felt like he didn't belong there. The two points where I realized Marshall belonged there is when I bought his perspective course. And second when met him at CTN EXPO. He was such and engaged warm person with great advice and he made me feel important for ten minutes. And he gave me a sense of direction and possibility. Also he has a voice you can relax into.

[@AdesGamingHere]

“Don’t fake it till you make it. Fake it till you become it.” - Amy Cuddy

[@tb8865]

It seems to me, that any artwork you yourself create will in some way feel fake to you because you contrived it and used every trick you know to make it work. But other people see it the way you see the work of other artists. Being objective is hard but possible.

[@RodStewartFaness]

I currently am dealing with the feelings of Imposter Syndrome: For a comic book that I pencilled and inked, and is now out, I feel like I've faked my success by referencing most of the panels in the comic from still frames of a music video. I've had praise from it, but I still have the feeling that someone is going to go - "hey! she copied this straight from the music video! That's not what you're supposed to do in comics! You're supposed to come up with your own story! Do your *own* drawings from imagination!" (Whereas the actual intention of the comic was to follow the original music video from beginning to end, with a couple extra elements added in, I still have the feeling of someone is going to "revoke my artist card" for copying the whole comic from a music video.) The comic is "Gowan: A Criminal Mind" that was released back in April of this year, for those who want to check it out. (It's completely based on the music video that you can find here on KZbin.) And the cover for the comic was based on the 45" single that came out for the song back in 1985. TL;DR : I have feelings of Imposter Syndrome because the panels from a comic book that I penciled and inked were directly referenced from a music video from the 80s. Even though that was the whole intention of the comic as directed from the musician who originally storyboarded said music video...

[@Zenith1987]

If I "eyeball" a photo reference for a completed work, I then add my own spin to it--if it's color, I make it in bold lineart. Or, I have a specific learning goal such as values or likeness studies. At this point, I only trace when I need to "convince" my brain that a person's face really is shaped a certain way. Then I draw it without tracing.

[@blessingayo9047]

Zenith1987 I get what you mean. I thought I was the only one.

[@davefx7949]

I draw a ton of anatomy. I'll attempt bodies that are in some weird positions. I always try a few times on my own. To see if my techniques can get it own their own. Then I'll go in and trace over the image. And then redraw with what I've now picked up from the tracing. It can help you learn. But had I only ever traced I wouldn't have the built up knowledge that I have. I can draw certain parts of the body quite well currently. And I'll only get there with the rest of the body if I continue to work at it.

[@mesolithicman164]

That sounds like a good use of tracing. All this 'I use it to save time' is just self justification for cheating.

[@sarasawyer2816]

Who carries a yogurt in their pocket 🤣💖

[@JonDoe-nz4sm]

Chads

[@LizGridleyArtist]

(How does it not go warm??)

[@elsagrace3893]

Liz Gridley - Artist yogurt is made by keeping milk warm so that the bacteria grows so a day or two in the pocket won’t hurt it 😂

[@LizGridleyArtist]

@@elsagrace3893 (yeah but it doesn't taste as good - sorry I'm team #fridgeyogurt )

[@jonsusoju]

Milk was a bad choice - Ron Burgundy

[@ginamazzillo4101]

This podcast is giving me life. I could listen to Marshal talk all day and not get bored.

[@HamzaAli-lk5ul]

Seriously I was thinking about this problem this whole month even today and fortunately the video popped up at the right time in my life I am also 20

[@grandmoffpuppeteer]

I've fought this internal battle since adolescence! I always FELT like using reference was "cheating!" A good friend has been trying to break me from this for about ten years. I still reflexively feel that impostor syndrome.

[@TempestRequiem0]

"People are not tuning to learn about Marshall's eating habits" Speak for yourself *Marshall*

[@fioreariadne]

I love how proko puts it, there are no rules and no licenses to be artists. Only you can determine your value as an artist, always with the idea of improvement in mind. Keep up the good work guys!

[@yokoboo]

The thing with tracing to speed up time, you don't just trace and then you're done. You still have a LOT of stylistic choices to make, and it requires a good eye to look at a piece in progress and say, "I saved myself time drawing this, and now I can spend the next hour (or five hours or however long it takes) to make it look good for the art piece I want to make." Tracing isn't the end-all, be-all, it's a tool, and when you expect it to do all the work for you (like photoshop filters), it will show in your work and it will look lazy and like you traced it.

[@truckingpix]

Im really grateful that you guys put out these podcasts... it is extremely helpful to listen to artist speak artist language.. .. I guess if you are not in an art school or surrounded by artist in your work environment you don't hear this very much... THANKS GUYS!!!

[@ColoredMud]

I swear these videos always come at just the right time. I've been struggling a lot with this lately and I just recently broke through. There will always be flaws in what you're creating, and the frustration can make many people quit, but just keep going. Knowing your flaws is no reason to stop. One thing that would be worse than seeing your flaws would be to feel like you can improve no further.

[@todd.mitchell]

This one is so good. I'm 52 and when I'm not binging your podcasts on my daily hike, I'm working through your figure drawing course, Stan (my wife gave it to me for Christmas!). Imposter syndrome is particularly challenging in retirement. But man, do I have time. Keep up the good work.

[@Starks95yt]

i love this episode so much. i just recently learned about conscious competence before watching and to hear fellow artists speak about it was beyond amazing. i especially am experiencing imposter syndrome but hearing you two speak about this really helps put my doubts at ease. i love this podcast so much, thank you proko, thank you marshal.

[@froskefrue4898]

Thanks Proko and Marshall for this great episode! Helpful to know that thoughts one has about one's own talent are something that most people have struggled with at some point. Highly recognizable content. Love your podcast.

[@DanAlport]

This was definitely one of favorite episodes! I appreciate that y'all touched on tracing specifically and imposter syndrome. As an aspiring tattoo apprentice, I feel this pressure to be able to churn out quality designs quickly, because as a tattooer, you have pretty immediate deadlines to complete designs to be ready for your client upon the day of their tattoo session, and sometimes you just need to trace for the sake of time. That feeling of inadequacy or artist inauthenticity as it pertains to you as the tattooer and creator of the design can be pretty damaging to one's self-image as a 'true artist'. I imagine it's an ongoing struggle. Thank you guys for the episode!

[@mathilda6763]

I just finished a painting study that I used tracing for. It's a master study of lady with an ermine and to get the overall structure of the painting right I traced the image and then copied it on my canvas. I don't feel bad because the 'tracing' I did was only maybe 3 percent of the actual painting process. I still needed to physically mix the right colour ( or tried to), I still had to figure out how to do the lighting how to paint different materials and fabrics and all that jazz. Plus after the first layer of paint you don't see the lines anyway. The thing is the purpose of the image wasn't to get better atdrawing it was to show what skill level I have working with acrylic paints at the moment. I don't think it makes me less of an artist.

[@joanistotler8804]

I agree with you guys about the tracing thing completely, but there is one other time when I find it helpful. If I have a reference that I'm painting from and there's a difficult portion of an element that I'm struggling with, I might trace over the reference just so I can see and FEEL the angles or whatever, then somehow it kind of gets it into my thought and when I go to paint from the reference I "get it" better. Very enlightening episode as usual - I'm glad to know that most of us have all had the impostor syndrome thing - it stinks and I'm grateful it doesn't come knocking very often any more. To keep the inner voices out, I like to keep stuff I've painted posted on a bulletin board in front of my work table to remind me that there are some paintings I'm very happy with. Thanks for the Draftsmen episodes!

[@snoot6629]

Give the person responsible for the thumbnails a raise

[@BasicBoi88]

I’ve been listening to all of your podcasts and all of it is super good advice but I REALLY needed to hear this episode. I’ve been going through the figure drawing course for years and never moved on from the Robo bean or landmarks because it never felt good enough. This is also how I’ve been approaching books I study from and a lot of other resources! I’m gonna push through from now on keeping in mind your two weeks rule. Thank you Stan and Marshall, your content is gold!

[@BananaramaArt]

I personally started doing art by tracing illustrations I liked without the head of the character and then tracing the head of another character I liked on top of that. As soon as I learned the basic proportions of the human body, I began sketching figures without any further knowledge of gesture and traced each part of the body I poorly sketched seperately to get the result I wanted. But by the time I realized that this way I'm too limited and dependent on ther's art, so I can't really draw my own ideas. That's why I think trying is a way to do art, but it's more limited.

[@axelcortes4120]

this episode has been very "helpul", I really needed to know how much time I should spend on each lesson, I've just started drawing 6 months ago and been really lost a lot of the time since I'm by myself in this. This podcast has been really helpful on getting new information and inspiring me to keep doing this, thank you.

[@angeliqueroux3017]

Go through it all a first time without going too much into the details, then restart and study in-depth. 2 weeks per lesson topic. Thank you, Stan & Marshall!

[@leeannlabarge]

Haha 😆 You two are so fun! I believe I have watched every episode and have enjoyed them all.

[@ninjason57]

Great podcast. I've struggled with this myself as a self taught artist, specifically the tracing. I agree with Proko when he said it hinders your growth as an artist but it also cuts down A LOT of time if doing a commissioned portrait.

[@scarlet8078]

Marshall has much more experience & presence speaking live, yet he is so polite. It's crazy this podcase came up on recommended & earlier today I was looking through old books & found ImagineFX Sketchbook Volume where Marshall was featured! He's everywhere! :)

[@luiscervantes5662]

best episode so far i had a blast with this i have laughed so hard but i got so many insides and information in the best way possible through humor

[@Gazellelearns]

I realized that tracing is so commonly used for illustration works in fashion or graphic design, back in college I was told that it is ok to do so because your illustration techniques are more important here than drawing skills! But I always thought they say that cause they are not able to teach😆 would be nice to hear your thought s about it!

[@oinkykviko177]

I love when you wander off the topic cause it brings even more into it and I love listening to everything you say xD Pls don't feel bad about it, just keep being yourselves! ^^

[@YuukoStudio]

I think a lot of us need this video :') thanks for this, such a interesting topic. And I'm so curious about how far those thumbnails can go 💖🤣

[@carolepivarnik9316]

Such a good podcast...I'm always happy to see a new episode. This one was excellent. I do a lot of pet portraits in watercolor/gouache...and use the graphite transfer process ("tracing" OMG EVIL! *snortlaugh* ) from the reference photo to ensure the likeness is precise every time. If I was younger, I'd beat myself up more about not being able to draw the likeness precisely from scratch. But I'm of Marshall's vintage and well..ain't nobody got time for that if you're not there already and have a bunch of commissions stacked up! Besides which, clients are remarkably focused on the details of their beloved pets' portraits. I can't tell you the number of times the feedback before final approval is something like, "Well...she has this one eyelash that is slightly out of alignment that I think is an important part of her expression." Or "He has this little whorl on one ear that I love." OK...those are easy to address. But the "I don't know, there's something not quite right about the eyes..." kind of feedback? That's a rabbit hole I try to avoid at all costs! Using graphite transfer helps me do that. And frankly, there is the whole cost/benefit analysis where I look at how long it takes me to do a portrait and how much I can reasonably charge to have a steady flow of business. Spending hours and hours on trying to get the drawing right as the bones of the painting...it's just not cost effective. I do spend a lot of time drawing in sketchbooks from direct observation, so there's my "learn to actually draw" balance :P We each have to find our way to what works for us. Thanks for sharing your expertise and wisdom with the rest of us!

[@fenrysk]

I agree with the whole segment about tracing and photobashing. I used to be pretty naive about tracing and and very limited in scope with my reference usage till I saw the workflow of one of my friends, Jeremy Wilson. He shoots his own reference that he then bashes together when arranging his composition, and often times he'll pick and choose limbs and hands from different photos that he took if he thinks it serves the final image. He told me that he recently started using tracing to transfer that arrangement to the canvas after doing a smaller color study, but he himself had felt weird about tracing up to the point when he realized that no one's going to see any of that behind the scenes stuff, they're only going to see the final image. In this current Inktober cycle, I've been using a light table to do a lot of tracing for transferring and redrawing on pieces that I felt needed it.

[@juliapace2845]

I really enjoyed this session - am always surprised when you take the time to show film cuts or pictures to describe what is being referred to. Like you guys said, there are legitimate times to trace - like when you're in a hurry for some reason to make a deadline but you do cheat yourself out of the skill building. Photo bashing is necessary - how could I do a drawing of a leopard - I can't go into the forest somewhere and wait til one comes so I can take a picture - a once in a lifetime beautiful bloom at sunrise, a shark - you have to buy the photo to avoid copyright infringement and avoid being eaten by a dangerous animal. Love you guys.

[@untitledmisou]

This is an awesome balance of hilarious and educational. Love both of your work.

[@markbarrera6807]

Ive had shame with projecting for large murals. But now I see it as practical, plus I don't do murals much anymore. Love the show guys.

[@wingnutzster]

I confess, I photobash 😢 I’ve been a published illustrator for 25 years and nearly all my backdrops are photobashed. I never trace but to redraw my own stuff but I suffered serious anxiety about being discovered especially with my work being public within a tight knit industry. Thing is I could produce those backdrops by hand but I can’t justify that amount of work on tight deadline - I discovered some of the best illustrators do the same.

[@mesolithicman164]

Darren-Edward Oneill Have you thought that the more you do the quicker you'll get and then have the ability to add your own original slant to the job? You're only slow because you haven't done enough. I've done page after page of cityscenes in my sketchbook to get a feel for window styles street furniture etc. It's fun. And you know it's yours. Part of the secret is that it's just patterns.

[@michaeljmccurdy9449]

oh my goodness, Marshall said, "I just opened up the treasure chest..." (at 31:30) right when I was drawing Lobo, from DC comics, opening up a treasure chest (insert shocked emoji here)!

[@eterno1610]

the guy who asked this question was on spot, i've been thinking about it for a past week or so, i feel like a "bad" artist because i can't come up with original idea and only thing is trying to "redraw" character, scenes from books (how to), this feeling will go away once i will be able to do it on my own but how long will it take, at the moment im learning about mythical creatures and trying to draw them from book, sometimes its dragon and sometimes it is treant and many more.

[@ribbonsandclayenglish9947]

This was so interesting!! I often feel unsure of my skills as I draw but I never knew that it was something so common or that it had a name!! It's also a very useful advice to move on if you don't grasp something yet: I'm slowly trying to improve in drawing portraits but if I focus on them too long they get worse and worse. Switching to another style or subject can be really refreshing!!

[@mischa2643]

Those are my tracing circumstances also, and I’m so glad I’ve got someone else on my side. Speed portraiture and transferring/duping my existing works

[@bodawei425]

It's also that, at every stage of our artistic journey, we always look up at people who are better than us to improve our skills. It makes us feel as imposters as they're so much better than we are. But it is also a sign that we are in a mindset of improvement. So, it's useful to look back every now and then and assess the progress made over a certain period of time. This brings positivity and some sort of comfort, even if we know we still have much to improve, even if the road ahead is still very long.

[@edwardmedina1236]

Oh - Thank God you addressed the issue of when to move on. I am taking your figure drawing course and I've been spending a couple of days in gesture drawing. While I've improved some, I was comparing myself to your gesture drawing. However, when you said it would take years to become comfortable with it, it made me realize I was putting too much stress on myself to match what you do.

[@berserkerpride]

Thanks for these guys. It makes great material to listen to while drawing.

[@mrpandabites]

I am someone who is about halfway on my art journey. I can relatively accurately render a figure from imagination, but I still feel more comfortable using a reference. I started my journey tracing out of comic books and Mad Magazine. When I improved, I was making detail-accurate copies of photos out of magazines. When I finally learned the fundamentals and started studying anatomy, the lessons I learned from tracing and copying were useful. I could make a confident line. I could shade accurately. It is all process. No part of it is invalid.

[@joshknightfall]

I’m pretty long in my art journey, and I never traced. Now I fell in love with it because I don’t enjoy freehand right now. I’m getting a thrill from composition and fine linework. I don’t wanna think about form and proportion. It’s like just busywork, drudgery. It stifles the creative flow. I do draw for practice and enjoyment, but for certain outcomes, there’s no way to achieve it, and move on, without using tracing for a scaffolding.

[@MrOttotattoo]

This video is exactly what I needed . Thank you

[@JefferyDavisJr.]

This is probably the best thumbnail yet of the draftsmen podcast

[@KiX-K4T13]

It's art, of course! 😂

[@3FreddyKrueger]

I really appreciate how you say the course should only take six months. I've restarted it so many times thinking, I was going to fast or too slow. It has motivated me to restart once again and to stick with it. I also plan on doing the Nicholaides guide to drawing and plan to do every lesson.

[@kipz]

most weeks these topics feel hand-picked for me and my current struggles

[@lichdesign]

It's a good thing to combine all the things mentioned in the video. Photobashing/Tracing/sketching than refine the hell out of it :D

[@rudycueto6171]

you two are awesome and so much help for some of us trying to improve, ty very much!

[@ShadowBunni]

Marshall! Your finger! Love all the draftsman episodes but this one, in addition to being helpful and a great background noise for drawing, just really cracked me up. Had a great laugh today, thanks! :D

[@ValentinHarbinger]

As long as you're honest about your process, there is no cheating. The issue is when you see a piece of work that looks amazing but the artist keeps quiet about all the tricks and cheats he used to achieve it, and gives off a false impression of mastery and skill. All this had a massive impact on me and set me back considerably as a beginner and was very demotivating thinking all these people are creating all this art with pure skill and imagination which seemed very unattainable for me. But then I realized how much photo-referencing and tracing is involved in a lot of professional illustrations and animations.

[@senselesscompass]

I actually really enjoy those casual conversations between marshall and stan. I'd watch and listen to every topic you guys would talk about.

[@MarcoMouraArt]

This is very important information for all of us artists out there.. thank you so much!

[@BlushingCreep]

Thank you for this podcast topic. I've literally been struggling with feeling like a cheater, imposter, because I copied lineart that wasn't my own, even though it took me AGES to get it to look right, and I definitely learned from the process. I still feel like I need to make excuses for my tracing, but I know it's still art, because I worked really, really hard on it. I wanted the linework to be perfect, because it was a birthday present for my mother. I'm even struggling to not apologize and explain why I did what I did. I worked hard, I agonized over it for days and days. A week straight of working on it. I suffered for it and it made my mother happy, and if that's not art, I don't know what is.

[@michaeljmccurdy9449]

Good and helpful talk. I struggle with believing I have what it takes but I press on...

[@sarahnp490]

Great topic and great answers Stan and Marshall. Love, love, Maxfield Parish! Just recently I discover artist Jeremy Mann, a painter who uses his own photography to create the most atmospheric and sublime portraits, figures, and cityscapes.

[@carolannefisher1516]

Tracing gets you an outline only. You still have to do what in my opinion is the most subtle and demands the most of your artistic skill, knowledge, and problem-solving ability - rendering.

[@eivomtv1846]

I disagree, getting correct proportional measurement are always the most difficult part of the drawing

[@alexandrenff8448]

Do you know how to fight Marshall? Because I'm pretty sure you know some Marshall Arts.

[@ApacheJay156]

I feel guilty for laughing at that. 😂

[@yashwantYadav71]

Holy cow.......

[@shintaiga3334]

Smooth af. 😂😂

[@BleepingRelics]

I stood and I clapped.

[@Johanyohann]

Goddamnit

[@ChristopherRobinsonKeys]

Great discussion. Absolute riveting. Hearing educated professionals, discussing a serious topic, ie Imposture Syndrome, tracing and building true skill, is great. Great to be brought back down to earth and understand that this is art, not brain surgery. Real 1st world problems. And love the Dark Side of the Moon reference. :-)

[@LALA-nk8pm]

🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟 You are both awesome!! And so flippin hilarious! Thank you for all your insights and for sharing your knowledge! ☮️💜🖼️

[@covidcarl7480]

I do this with 3d modeling because I have mastered modeling- but now as a single person i take other models and modify them to spend my time better. this way i can create a scene quicker - I consider the models my own after I have changed 70% of them- using a base mesh is not cheating or copyrighting.

[@allluckyseven]

There's this comic book artist called Greg Land who's famous for tracing photos into his artwork. And while (as a result of that) his drawings look very realistic, sometimes the pose he's copying doesn't fit the story/attitude of the character. This may be the exception to what Stan said about nobody "calling you" for tracing, because, boy, they do call him. And I mean, I think that as a comic book artist you're expected to create figures in all sorts of poses and actions rather than tracing them. BTW there's a great video about him from ComicTropes called _"Tracing_ the Success of Greg Land". (wink-wink)

[@tiagodagostini]

tracing for a portrait is something completely different from a job that is supposed to be more creative than technical. Tracing anything other than your own sketches in comics is a disaster.

[@charlottealexander2329]

I was using photos from Pixabay when i was learning how to work with color pencils. I found that I could rarely find photos that matched my vision of what i wanted. Taking my own photos is much better though limited. Unless you want to paint whales underwater or something that would be really hard to take yourself. :)

[@Sky-de7oy]

I love ur intros. You guys are so fun. What a pairing :')

[@BakiWho]

question was very important! helps my schedule to get shit done and confidence on the time i spend

[@Daliena]

Here is a story: I came to US from Crimea at 19, despite having awful accent I went for my first interview at a corporate office - I had to find a job. I felt awful, my english was awful, I felt like I was going to embarrass myself and fail. But I got the job. Morale: There is always someone out there that "has a job" for you. Meaning: you may not get a top level position from the start but you can get up there slowly by working at it. So just keep working at it. Art is the same - there are ppl that wont notice your mistakes and will adore your work. Those will most likely not be professionals. Keep going and learning. You will get better - dont stop working on it. Every time you think you are not good or have impostor thought - "punish" yourself with 10 life studies :).

[@roscmon]

WOW!!!! I can't believe this! Marshall Vandruff!! So, years ago I got into drawing a little bit, and found him online because he was selling DVDs on perspective. I bought the perspective set, and then another DVD on how to draw animals. They were amazing! He's an awesome teacher (as you are as well Proko) and I learned a lot. But then I got side tracked in life and dropped art for awhile. So now here I am years later, getting back into art, and I discovered your videos in the last 3 days. After watching a couple of your vids on perspective, it made me think of my DVDs and I thought I should go through them again. And when I thought of them, I didn't remember Marshall's name, but I remembered him and wondered if he was still teaching. Those DVDs are from about 15 years ago, or maybe longer. I don't remember if he had a beard back then. He had a bit more hair and it was black. So I didn't recognize him at first. And as I'm watching this vid, 10 minutes into it, he's talking and BOOM!! He makes a quick expression and all of a sudden I could see his face from the DVDs. So I here in your description for his name, and I go pull out my DVDs to see if it's the same name... It was, and it just threw me into complete awe. It's so difficult to find people that are good at teaching. It's not just about presenting material, it's about presenting it in a way that it can be absorbed. It's about the timing when you're explaining, going slower on the harder concepts, etc. It's about making things so clear, that the student feels like a light bulb went off. It's about covering subjects so completely that there isn't any holes. Both you and he have those rare skills. So I just felt amazement to see you both in the same room, knowing each other, chatting together.... Too cool for words... :) It was exactly at 10:15 that I recognized him. 😁

[@yvonnerobinson7195]

Hi guys -This is the 2nd or 3rd time watching this episode and would like to support the concept of working from photographs. While painting from life, in studio or plein air, painting (or drawing) is invaluable, painting from photos is not only valid and fun, it is sometimes more practicable. Besides the art I did while in Italy for two weeks, I brought home tons of photos and videos so that I can do more now that I am home in Florida. I truly look forward to painting from my shots taken while in Barga and Lucca and all around the mountains and lakes of Tuscany! Lastly, want to share that all your pod casts are helpful in organizing my thoughts, additional perspectives, and reaffirmations to me in my art and video work. Even though I don't personally know you, both of you make me feel like I have friends and am not alone in my very conservative suburb outside Tampa. Thank you!

[@christoperjohnteodosio2688]

This is so helpful! I have been practicing gesture for a few months now. Its just that I think I'm not good enough to move on to structure. Thanks for clarifying that!

[@iAmLukeeee]

the chat about imposter syndrome helped a lot, thanks so much

[@ronspiegl6688]

Nice to hear artists can feel like imposters. I must be an artist. Great topic for all us striving perpetual students. Thanks. FYI a troll has called me a sycophant for positive words I have posted about you. I will have you know that you offer a wealth of knowledge hard to find in even good life courses in community colleges. Most are taught by people who have no business teaching it. Wish I had the internet when I was young. Sincerely your sycophant.

[@drawer9987]

Norman Rockwell traced photos he would project onto a wall and then he'd composite his individual tracings into a composition.

[@sarahnp490]

I want to know who drew it!

[@mesolithicman164]

I think his work suffers for it. Look at the work of his hero, JC Leyendecker, who worked from life. It has a vitality you can't get from tracing.

[@sergiojuan217]

He snorts, he giggles, tells jokes. Proko , you’re adorable.

[@MrsQueenEster]

I love you guys! You’re so funny to listen 😃

[@MsShawnaeSmith]

I also feel like an imposter Because my drawing skills are low. Fundamentally I’m good at observing, good at shapes, and colors (my values are slowly getting better)... but I’m horrible at line work (unsteady hands/low patience) and it really brings me down that I can’t solely rely on line work for a finished piece.... or i quit during the middle of sketching to full on painting to speed up my process. I realized that I can be just a painter and not a drawer, but I want to be both. I’m slowly working on my drawing skills and feeling confident about my painting skill... but I still feel imposterish when I do create painterly pieces 😓

[@KiX-K4T13]

Well shaking hands means your guarding yourself subconsciously, while simultaneously feeling stressed out. Steady hands come with time and I think as an outsider, who understands those shakes, take it from me: just breathe deeply, exhale many times, then when your calmer, just go slowly and take your time. Do not waiver and instead, bring confidence into your lines. Make sure they are the best lines you've ever drawn in your life. It works for me and I'm an idiot, so a queen like you should be just fine. I believe you'll get it. I have faith in your skills.

[@em_m5989]

I can recommend drawabox.com for improving your linework and draftsmanship in general. My lines are still not great but better from using that site.

[@Delta-2-0]

Use polyline it's okay, i'm not sure what polyline tool is called in photoshop. Good advice is to hold your breath and just let your hand slide, and practice bridging from end to end if you're doing traditional

[@alicedubois1348]

This seems so dumb... but I am in tears. In 35 years, I had no idea that there was a name to this, and Imposter Syndrom is the best name that fits this terrible dilemma of a feeling. Thank you so much for that.

[@variableeddie8000]

Regarding when to move on. I've said the same thing about schooling with regard to mathematics for years. You need enough geometry to start trigonometry but you can't really dig down into geometry until the trig is there and both of them relate to calculus and physics and even biology but that's not how the system's set up. It's one of the main reasons why passion can take people places that hard work doesn't understand, you need the perspective to say 'this is too abstract, what am I missing' and know to look somewhere completely different is often a healthy choice.

[@variableeddie8000]

Oh, I forgot. The reason I've said that is you need to see where the next level uses the level you are learning so that you don't waste time pounding information into your head that, while helpful in the long run, is very likely going to be missing a piece that you wouldn't think to learn the first time on the more basic subject. You can't know that imaginary numbers 'follow' the rules for real numbers if the real number rules they follow aren't even in your textbook. It helps to peek rather than peak, come back to reinforce the foundation and then set it into the rotation of something to come back to later[wall of text].

[@ArnabLHT]

Very good topic... Love it...😍🙏😉

[@DelOfTheShire]

Love this podcast. Listen to it on the car to and from work. The one thing I don't get is the constant reference to drawing from the imagination as if that is the pinnacle to which we should aspire. Stan himself says he painted from his own photographs; his courses and videos include lots of drawing and copying from life. Many of the old masters used models and real settings to inform their paintings. As did Norman Rockwell. Indeed, how can you progress without doing drawing not from imagination? So why is this such a Holy Grail? But it's a minor criticism of the best podcast on the best channel out there!

[@Voxavs]

When people start to throw "this cheating - that cheating" around you can really feel how elitist the art community can be. I talked with many artists about it and some of them gave me a feeling that they are butthurt, triggered and threatened by the fact that other people "have it easier" or just don't do it the way they do it.

[@sampokemppainen3041]

Tracing is like an aikidoka claiming to know how to do real self defense. It looks good, but we all know that guy would get crushed in real fight.

[@krisCrashTV]

A couple of years ago I took a 4½ months course in classic drawing. I already drew well, but this took it up a couple of notches, and it definitely removed a lot of imposter feelings I had from being self taught. Anyway, that earned me a diploma, which I sometimes view as my "art license" because that's fun.

[@arielartmind606]

I'm pushing 40 and decided to become a professional artist now, my skills are not at the level that I want them to be, I'm working a full time job that sucks the life out of me and causes me severe body pain, I now realize that I was born for art just ignored it and listened to society, saying that art is not a real job. I wasted a lot of time on bullshit. Imposter syndrome is just resistance, don't listen to it, enjoy being an artist. Thank you for this podcast and channel.

[@madhatterarts1506]

im late but ive been binging these podcasts and people take their personalities to their art as well. Someone who feels they arent worthy in general will most definitely feel that way if they are acknowledged for their skills

[@hotdogstratus6533]

I was against tracing at first but I use it to learn. It's really helped me with anatomy. When I study it along with other things. Now it's a lot easier for me to draw from imagination, Especially as someone with a poor mind's eye, bordering aphantasia.

[@tygra2886]

And what you think about the frankensteining? by frankensteining, i mean taking the huge amount of references of many things - clothes, body parts etc. And tracing all of them, and also, tweaking some things, like issues with anatomy or perspective - to the point that no one can put a finger on an exact references that you used? Also, what do you think of using reference photos to trace only a skeleton of a character, and then, only work from this skeleton without the reference to finish up this character?

[@benikeler]

37:20 I would so agree with this. When I started sketching, I studied anatomy until eyes bugged out and my hands hurt from practice, but my faces still looked bad. It wasn't until I got into digital sculpting and modeling that I learned how the planes of the face related to each other.

[@SiggEye]

Concerning impostor syndrome: I believe that if you have it, you will forever constantly delay the feeling of "I am good", which essentially mean that you will never be truly happy with yourself or what you create. I don't think that's the right way to go about it.