Track Gauges and Scales - Part 1: Track Gauge

[@davidwayneprins]

I swear this channel is both entertaining and educational. Never would have expected a discussion on rail gauges to turn into moving an outhouse.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Well if the shoe fits… speaking of fits.. fits of laughter and foolishness

[@alwaysbearded1]

Glad you did not diverge into all the narrow and broad gauges out there but I really like learning where the extra 1/2" came from.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Oh well we will be going there! Sigh…

[@edwinsinclair9853]

Even today, railroads often set the gauge a little wider on curves to allow for the contour of the wheels to work properly.

[@josephkarl2061]

One very minor correction, and please forgive me for it, but Trevithicks first passenger hauling locomotive was called Catch-Me-Who-Can, complete with en dashes and all. I'm running away now and keeping my head down! Many thanks for a very informative video Dale and Karyn.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. The “amusement park” train. In the video. I called it catch me if you can…

[@josephkarl2061]

@@ToyManTelevision As I say Dale, it's almost not worth mentioning, but it's just in case anyone wanted to find out more about it and wanted the correct term. It's one of those points in history I would love to have seen in person, because this whole concept of being pulled along by something that didn't have lungs would have been mind blowing to many people. It really was a sign of things to come.

[@stevemellin5806]

Very cool . thank you for the information. Have a great week

[@ToyManTelevision]

Thanks again for watching!!! Sunday garden railroads.

[@jaystuckey4920]

The best part of this was the Outhouse story. That reminded me of High School Spanish class in 1971 being boring so we tried to bring in grins by making up Spanish words. We came up with the Spanish name for Outhouse....Casa de PooPoo.

[@garyacker7388]

Kayrn just cracked me up! I was too young but I watched my Dad and his friend move our "outhouse ". You guys are the best 👌 👍. When the Big Boys went into use I was told that several curves had to be changed because they were so long.

[@robertrussell2166]

You could do a follow up on this show using caboose’s. Even though they run on garden railway track the scale could be vastly different from one caboose to another. Just a thought. Fun show btw

[@benhancock1408]

Speaking of outhouses,,,,In the small town where I grew up, one of the neighbors to the highschool had an old un-used outhouse in his side yard. Every Halloween it would get tipped over, usually from the back. One year he went out the day before and moved it ahead about 6'. That was the last time it got messed with.

[@shanelipe2552]

OMG... LMAO.. That's a great story. Lol. I'd say the brats learned their lesson with that one. Lol

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yuk. And lol.

[@kenshores9900]

Boy , Karyn really when off the rails. Never boring and always unique and different.

[@davidwayneprins]

hopefully the outhouse never went off the rails. That would be a stinky disgusting mess.🤢

[@matthewlemire]

Great job with on explaining about track gauge, Toy Man Television!! I remember being blown away learning for the first time many years ago that different track gauges existed throughout the centuries. It's a really in-depth history that explains the significance of why railroad lines have the track width as we see today. Keep up the great work!!

[@ToyManTelevision]

Thanks!!! More on this coming. Next up.. standard gauges used on models. But still on gauges.

[@tomklock568]

Thank you! Now I know how to properly set up to move my outhouse. Ha ha! Thanks guys.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Boards in the mud. Hopefully a front loader. If not a truck and skids.

[@Samstrainss]

There was regional standardisation to a degree in early railways, each region tended towards a preferred gauge. One of these is where we got standard gauge. 4'8" being the preferred gauge in one area, this then being used on the liverpool and manchester, this then being widened by the half inch to help with cornering. Also the history of thervithic locomotives is quite convoluted and full of errors. Replicas exist of locomotives that never even did... replicas exist based on images that were drawn from peoples imaginations. It's quite fun

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

It was primarily due to a lot of railways were built by the Stephensons.

[@ToyManTelevision]

History is one of those things that can never be truly known. It’s always a story. Different stories. Told by people who were there. Or not. Or say they were. Or even think they were. But the “truth” is in there. The trick is figuring out what.

[@Samstrainss]

@@ToyManTelevision probably safest we can really say of trevithic without some serious use of asterisks is "he made locomotive"

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

@@ToyManTelevision that is only true where the documentation never or no longer exists. For the UK's public railways there all the Acts of Parliament plus other public records. If we look at the railways on Teesside as an example, where the Stockton and Darlington Railway started everything off. The S&D was engineered by the Stephensons. But the Clarsn e Railway wasn't, but as it ran from Simpasture Junction on the S&D to the Docks at Hartlepool and was built to carry coal from the same mines as the S&D it had to be of the same gauge. As were all the lines that linked to both of these railways such as the Middlesbrough and Guisborough, which linked to the S&D's extension to Middlesbrough. Meanwhile the Stephensons were busy with the Liverpool & Manchester Railway and the Leeds & Mancester Rsilways and had been named at least half a dozen railways before the dust had settled at Rainhill.

[@medwaymodelrailway7129]

Nice update you done lots going on liked very much.

[@medwaymodelrailway7129]

Thanks very much for replying to my comment. That's the great part about the hobby sharing ideas and learning new ideas from other people to improve our Channel. Take care and stay safe DD.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Thanks again as always for watching and commenting and stuff!!! Really THANKS.

[@medwaymodelrailway7129]

@@ToyManTelevision Your welcome.

[@lifeisagift.cherisheverymoment]

Everything is arbitrary. Something is "standard" simply because some group or society or association gets together and decides something will be referred to as "standard". :) Interesting historical lesson, thank you.

[@tgmccoy1556]

Now I know why. Thanks, Dale 😁.

[@stephensfarms7165]

Thanks a good education for lots of people 👍👍

[@ritaloy8338]

The Train of Kayron's thought definitely had a major derailment. Thinking about moving an Outdoor Privy while having a discussion about railroad track gages. That was why there were no survivors. At Whittier College they use have a Bonfire every year. The Bonfire Chairman had to provide an outhouse to placed on top of the Bonfire. A One Holer was a job well done. A Two Holer was a job done special. A Three Holer was a job done extra special. But when Richard Nixon was the Bonfire Chairman everyone was in shock. Because on the top of the Bonfire was a Four Holer.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Hi. Oh the wooden bathroom. A bonfire on rails. The mind boggles.

[@johnnyvscustomsgaragetassie.]

Standard video to gauge life by for stopping one running off the rails. Good advice. Cheer's John

[@ToyManTelevision]

Lol!

[@stephenrickjr.7519]

A nice history lesson, thanks.😊👍

[@ToyManTelevision]

Thanks back!

[@thomasharroun8068]

The first steam locomotives were built in England , and thus the first locomotives in America were imported from England with the inherited English gauge at 56 1/2".

[@edwinsinclair9853]

Some of us always heard that standard gauge of 4’ 81/2” was the width of Roman chariot wheels.

[@NYCJDClark]

Good information. You two are funny, move that outhouse! : )

[@ToyManTelevision]

Outhouse burned down. Sad state of affairs. But the tracks survive.

[@FlakusCorporation]

Well shucks. I learned something today.

[@growclipbonsaiforseniors1951]

Educational!

[@ToyManTelevision]

Hi again. Thanks again.

[@billkline0320]

You guys have too much fun

[@ToyManTelevision]

No such thing!!

[@AndrewJohnson-ur3lw]

There are urban tales about the gauge relating to the width of two horses hauling a roman cart. On some roman roads they had solid stone with grooves that the wheels could run in.

[@tobewan77]

What horses ass came up with that gauge?

[@pbyfr]

And the rest of the tale tells that standard gauge gave the normal with of railroad tunnels in USA, which determined the diameters of the Space Shuttle's boosters, and now the SLS' boosters. And all that is based on the width of the ass of Roman horses!

[@ToyManTelevision]

Hi. Well there is more to it that that. But yes, two horses. Or assess. Or horses assess. But the cart is of a size. Based on many things but mostly the size of a person. And that leaves room for two horses. So… chicken or egg..

[@everettthepetractionguy4222]

Thanks for the history lesson on standard gauge of 4' 81/2". 😊 Now, I'd like to see the gauge of proto:48 become the new standard gauge of RTR 'O' scale instead of the 5 foot gauge of the regular 'O' scale. 🙄 But, I'm sure the railroad model market won't allow that to happen - just a pipe dream. 🙄 You're a terrific history teacher. Looking forward to more history on railroading. 👋😉

[@pbyfr]

You should then use the "right" scale of 1/45. By the way, I model at 1/43.5😁

[@themodelhobbyist]

Thanks for the show once again great stuff explaining the scale vs gauge or not really vs but you know LOL. 🙂Thomas over at The Model Hobbyist

[@ToyManTelevision]

Thanks again! Next week why people started modeling in 5 foot gauge. Many still do!

[@johnmalley4355]

Really neat show, Karyn made me wonder what would be the most common gauge, or size rather of most outhouses? I’ve had to use a few over the years, never thought about that aspect until I saw your show. Great show…

[@karynfelix-the-Cat]

I believe the common gauge of an outhouse is 4'x 8 1/2 inches... Squared...

[@johnmalley4355]

@@karynfelix-the-Cat awesome 👏

[@johnmalley4355]

Forgot to tell you, Virginia City just had the outhouse races couple weeks ago, I usually go but had to work. Something fun…

[@ToyManTelevision]

Lol!!

[@timothyboles6457]

Scale and gauge are the 2 most confused words in model railroading. And we only have ourselves to blame. Because we constantly slip the 2 words and use them interchangeably. And they aren't interchangeable. Standard gauge being standard gauge. There is broad gauge. And narrow gauge. And really narrow gauge who refer to wider narrow gauge as broad gauge.

[@timothyboles6457]

You are correct. There was and still is wider gauges. But not in America anymore.

[@johnd8892]

@@timothyboles6457wide gauge still in use.. the five foot six inch gauge is the only gauge used by BART in Frisco. Intensive use.

[@timothyboles6457]

@@johnd8892 I almost forgot about BART. Or was I trying to forget it. I used to suffer riding it everyday and the screeching of the wheels in curves still haunts me

[@audriesantacruz3501]

Hi to both of you! I am new to model railroading. My friend has f scale or garden scale size steam locomotives. Can you point me to which videos to learn more about scale? I want to lean to build structures for his layout

[@Xander_YT57]

Im actually i have narrow gauge tracks and i have some train but its so much information and yeah its so much :)

[@ToyManTelevision]

More on narrow gauge in future shows.

[@finlayfraser9952]

Got it!

[@Santafefrank]

Thanks

[@ToyManTelevision]

Thanks again

[@MustangsTrainsMowers]

I read somewhere that some early rail equipment the wheels had the flanges outside of the rail gauge. They thought it was a safety issue and switched to wheels with the flanges on the inside. Online I see gauge and scale mixed with each other in reference to O gauge model trains. Then on top of that Lionel made under scale 027 trains with lighter built, shorter height tracks and O gauge with closer to scale size cars and engines. But then at 1.25” between the rails Lionel track gauge is wider than what 4’ 8.5” would be in 1:48. Imagine the confusion of someone new to the hobby.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. O scale and gauge. One whole show there!!

[@shedbythetracks]

How about "Wide Gauge" from the early years. I've never been sure where that fit into the history of railroading. I could be wrong, but I believe some of the early 4-4-0s were wide gauge. I'm getting old so I might have just made that up.... my wife says i do that. Ha!

[@caelumvaldovinos5318]

Wide gauge was an early 1830's -1860's fad fueled primarily by the Great Western Railway in the UK and the Erie Railroad in the US. The proponents argued that due to Wide Gauge locomotives being able to mount their boilers inside the frame and having a wider stance, you had better balance of the machine, build bigger and more powerful locomotives, haul more cargo, and could go faster than standard gauge. Well, space & costs of building the larger infrastructure started to add up and, for the Erie in particular, the lack of interchangeability with other railroads killed the fad

[@shedbythetracks]

@@caelumvaldovinos5318 Thanks for the info!

[@pras12100]

Very amusing video but no mention of George Stephenson? The popularity of his locomotives (and their derivatives) built to 4' 8" gauge are the reason why the standard was born. Adapting a cart for a different gauge is reasonably straightforward but adapting a steam locomotive for a significantly different gauge can be complicated. Things could have turned out differently. Isambard Kingdom Brunel's competing standard was 7 feet (a quarter inch was soon added for curves). This standard would have meant more stable trains and potentially much more powerful locomotives. The problems were larger (and more expensive) tunnels, bridges and earthworks. The size of the gauge also influences the radius of the curves on a railway as smaller gauges corner better.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Stevenson’s locomotives were the first really successful locomotives. And we mentioned 1825. But no time to cover everything. Just trying to explain the gauge.

[@FunAtDisney]

Have you read the story of BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) using 5-1/2’ gauge rails? Very interesting and it might make for a fun video.

[@ToyManTelevision]

No! Need more information on that!!!

[@donnamarie3617]

Standard gauge here in New Zealand is 3'6", as is South Africa...

[@jimkammerer5240]

LOVE THE VIDEO AND THE INFORMATION ON YOUR CHANEL A SMALL QUESTION WHAT ABOUT THE ROMAN CHARIOTS THEIR WIDTH WAS SUPPOSEDLY WHY THE WITH OF THE RAIL CAME TO BE I APPRECIATE YOU BOTH AND YOUR HELP WITH THE CHANEL AND SUBJECT MATTER FOR YOUR SUBSCRIBERS, JIM KAMMERER OF PHILADELPHIA PA NORFOLK SOUTHERN RULES MY RAILS 👍

[@ToyManTelevision]

Thanks Jim!

[@johnd8892]

Last time I checked there is more broad gauge track than narrow gauge track in use in the world. Broad gauges dominant in India , Russia and South America.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Much more…

[@earlfreeman93]

It is my understanding that standard gauge is also called universal gauge as well.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup.

[@caseyvillemodelrailroad3877]

Gauging by what your saying most rail roads are standard....

[@solarusthelonghaulerrailfa3226]

One thing about gauge is that the gauge need not be the same as the scale of your railroad considering the 7 & 1/4-1/2 in gauge and the scale could be 2/3/4/5 in scale

[@BravuraLion]

If you can send me the Audio from that clip without the background music, i can fix that crackling issue for you if you want :)

[@ToyManTelevision]

Hi. Anytime we hook a mic to any GoPro it crackles. I’ve talked to GoPro and crickets. Hum perhaps that’s the crackle. No Matter. No time to clean the audio. We need to edit in like 3 hours. We’ve looked at not using a mic. No crackle but reverb. Using an iPhone. Can’t connect a mic. Using the Limix. Picture is poor and no way to monitor. So we live with the crackle.

[@BravuraLion]

@@ToyManTelevision thats a bit of a shame.. i mean quantity is a thing but you should also release videos with some decent quality

[@lescobrandon3047]

When I was a young boy in the early 1950s, my brother, my sister and I were given an American Flyers train set for Christmas that was quite large. My dad got the idea from my uncle who was building an HO scale layout in his basement. When neighborhood kids came in to see ours on a plywood layout my carpenter father made, their eyes bugged at the idea of trains on TWO rails. Their Lionel trains looked terrible to us and they got nasty about it in response. And Lionels are still sold with three rails.

[@lifeisagift.cherisheverymoment]

My OCD brain could never accept model railroads running on three rails. :)

[@IndustrialParrot2816]

@@lifeisagift.cherisheverymoment Yeah it bothers me too that why I model g scale

[@lifeisagift.cherisheverymoment]

@@IndustrialParrot2816 In my early 20s, my model railroading began in N Scale, but as the years melted away and visual acuity became problematic, larger scales became more enjoyable.

[@IndustrialParrot2816]

@@lifeisagift.cherisheverymoment oh i dable in other scales aswell but i am focusing on g scale right now

[@ToyManTelevision]

Three rail… odd. But logical. A show on that coming soon.

[@paducahandlouisvillerailro3309]

Hey toy man I have a brass nickel alloy Santa Fe Railroad Spike from 1950 and it from Colorado

[@ToyManTelevision]

Sounds like a great souvenir!!! I wonder what it was for? But a great find.

[@paducahandlouisvillerailro3309]

@@ToyManTelevision idk Cyrus holiday casted it

[@iannarita9816]

And for the truly ancient I like to cite the Diolkos wagonway(?) en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diolkos From ancient wheel ruts in rock to steel wheels on steel rails is a long history.

[@iannarita9816]

PS are we going to see a model of a facility on rails?

[@ToyManTelevision]

Cool. Thanks again!!!!

[@daviemaclean61]

I thought maybe Karyn's outhouse had wandered off? She seemed to be losing her sh.......! ;-b

[@ToyManTelevision]

I can find shirt no matter where it’s hidden. This time of year it’s everywhere as there is an election in a couple of weeks.

[@drgwnut]

I'm trying to gauge the true scale of this discussion.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Lol!!!!

[@dkaustin98]

I haven’t watch all your gauge videos, but there is a theory those coal wagons were pulled by two horses. You can go back to Roman chariots pulled by two horses. So, in theory Stephenson first based his rails on coal wagons designed to accommodate two horses thus the standard is based on two horses’ asses.

[@ToyManTelevision]

That’s the story🐴. But it’s really just a matter of human scale. What is the best size for a cart?

[@dkaustin98]

@@ToyManTelevision The biggest size my broke down horse or ass can pull? 😁

[@danb8489]

How old the steam engine on your table? Allso what is your first train car

[@AndrewJohnson-ur3lw]

Trevethick was about 1804 he was from Cornwall in England. The railway failed as it was too heavy for the rails and broke them!

[@ToyManTelevision]

And train cars are a little bit tricky, because they’ve actually been around for hundreds of years. In New England they had rutways and railways. And many of them pulled carriages that looked a lot like stage coaches. Again just pulled by horses, and so the early steam engines pulled the exact same carriages.

[@chrisszumelda3189]

I was told some time ago the original distance or gauge between the rail heads was based on the distance between the wheels on Roman Chariot. Don't know if this is fact or fiction.

[@paulkalff6408]

Indeed.....and, since in ancient Egypt, a Cubit varied from pharaoh to pharaoh, the chariot "gauge" was a constant....sort of like how H-P determined the allowable dimensions of its test equipment (a group within H-P that provided design engineers with permitted enclosure dimensions) ... the "test" was Dave Packard dropping a prototype onto a concrete floor...if the device worked, it passed). A Cubit would be the distance from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger of the relevant monarch. The Sumerians used a cubit but, again, it varied depending on the monarch. I have also heard of using the index finger, but the "middle" would be the longest - for consistency....The particular "Cubit" dimensions may be a way in which archeologists help determine from which dynasty/ruler a particular ancient edifice is credited.....just a WAG.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. But it’s a chicken and egg problem. Long before the asses asses carts were built to any needed size. But the most common size was two horses wide. So we’re the horses the standard or the cart? Doesn’t matter until the carts make ruts. And the wheels need to fit the ruts or rails. But no matter how you slice it a cart or truck or car or stagecoach will be about 5’. Or 3 cubits. Or? But about that size because of human scale. If people were 10’ tall it would be different for sure.

[@paulkalff6408]

@@ToyManTelevision Hi, Dale and Karyn! Funny! 10' Pharoah = Cubit??? BTW....did you receive the two photos (J.W. Bowker and Genoa) I sent you that I took (icky quality, I know) in about 1965 when they were in storage at the WP roundhouse in Oakland? They are yours to keep. Too bad we can no longer get Raspberry Hurricanes at Snelgrove's.🥲Thanks! PK

[@kenshores9900]

Of course in Australia they have 3 different gauges of rail roads, but that is Australia!

[@johnd8892]

Even more when you count the sub 3ft 6in narrow gauge lines used for shorter distance traffic flows and logging. The main survivor is the 2 ft 6 in gauge Belgrave to Gembrook Puffing Billy line running 364 days a year in steam tourist preservation. A few two and three foot lines the other main ones.

[@kenshores9900]

And I thought the standard gauge came from the width of a Roman chariot.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Sort of too. But why were chariots built that wide? Hum..

[@pbyfr]

Standard gauge became the standard only both continental Europe and USA standardized to this gauge in 1886. Otherwise, it would just be another strange British standard, that nobody else use in the world.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Totally interesting history. Mostly British history. But the rest of the UK and states followed for economic and political reasons. The United States standard was really 5’. And should have stayed that but the powerful northern interests wanted 4’8.5”. And by 1868 the south had been removed from the discussion.

[@furripupau]

@@ToyManTelevision This is not quite correct. The 5 foot gauge first appears in the U.S. on the South Carolina Canal & Rail Road Company's line from Charleston to Hamburg, with the first few miles constructed in 1830. The gauge was chosen by Horatio Allen, for reasons that are not precisely known, other than that Allen claimed he took into consideration "all" the factors and settled on five feet as the best gauge. By the 1860s, South Carolina had quite a mix of 5 foot and standard track. North Carolina by comparison was mostly 4'8.5", and Georgia was almost entirely 5 foot. The five foot gauge primarily was used in the "deep south", yet even in Louisiana and Alabama there were some standard gauge lines - some companies had been laying track long before Allen's 5 foot gauge made its way west from the coast of SC. Interestingly, during his short reign as president of the Erie RR, Horatio Allen suggested that company adopt a 5 foot gauge too! Another thing to consider is that in pre-Civil War America, most of the northern roads were very slightly broad of "standard", 4'9" was immensely popular and there were hundreds of miles of this very slightly wider than standard gauge track in use. There were also some oddball lines, like the Camden and Amboy, that used a 4'9" & 3/4" gauge, or the Delaware and Hudson with its 4'3" gauge. Getting everybody to settle on 4'8.5" ended the craziness (until narrow gauge took off).

[@robertweldon7909]

Gauge us simple, Standard Gauge, and several "so called" narrow gauges, like 3ft gauge. Scale on the other hand is not so simple. First is scale to inches (architectural) Metric, similar to inch and then fractional. For example 1/4 inch scale 1/4 " = 1foot is the same as 1/48 scale, or 1 foot = 48 feet. Oh by the way "O" scale is actually smaller than 1/'4 inch, best said to be 1/47, because nearly all model railroad scales are based upon British scales. (Metric) O is about 63.5 mm. Ho is 3.5mm equals 1 foot or 1/87 (1 foot equals 87 feet. Then all the different SIZES to fit LBG type track. OH my aching head. I believe that so called "S" scale 3/16" = 1ft or 1/64 scale is the only "American" scale (no metric base). I'm sure you will be able to explain all of this much better than me, I got confused in this bit, which I did. ;-)

[@ToyManTelevision]

It’s sooo complicated. The basic problem is that the society of model engineers used 5’ gauge to keep the math simple. 0 scale. 1:48. Gauge 1.25”. See simple. Wrong, but simple.

[@markdeschane4467]

What is the piece of equipment behind Karen's head? Galvanized steel hood like thing, looks like a chimney for some type of oven?

[@ToyManTelevision]

It’s a white metal furnace. We cast parts (just for personal projects). The metal is melted there. Next to that is a large green spin caster. And next to that a mold press. Look on the channel for our casting videos. Well let me look.. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aoDRp3-LeZ53nac

[@ToyManTelevision]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/gWrOlpaCd5mUosU

[@Fedora5957]

So, then, why did the UK build a broad gauge in their colony of India.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Good question. I’ve always wondered. I’m sure it was a super good idea but no idea..

[@Fedora5957]

Hay Toy Man, did you also know that the Costa Rican National railroad was built in 3.5 gauge while the rest of Central America was built in 3 feet?