Scales and Gauges Part 9 - Narrow Gauges - On3 On2 On30

[@LMR78]

This year and next year bachmann is rereleasing some of their on30 stuff, I believe that the outside frame 2-8-0 is getting released again in the WP&Y, Potash RR and unlettered.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Really!!?? Wow. Great news!

[@crockett11000]

After over 60 years as a model railroader in every scale and most of them 3 to 4 times over including 7 1/2" ride on, Iv'e finally found my favorite, ON30!. At least Bachmann is still doing a few things,.. The 2-6-2 T trench loco came out only a few years ago, and their doing a East Broad Top set and cars, Steel bay hoppers. And now longer wood side door cabooses!.

[@JonnyHolms]

Thanks Mr. and Mrs. Toy Man. Have been enjoying your channel for a long time now and find every video very enjoyable and a learning experience for me. Thanks again.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Thanks!!!! Have a merry Christmas and stuff!

[@FishingwithChips]

Really enjoying learning the history of model railroad scales! Can't until you guys cover HO scale and it's narrow gauges since it's my favorite scale and it's not too small and not too big for space except maybe the bank account lol.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Blackstone makes the best HOn3!! Back in the “olden times” like before 1980 HOn3 was not reliable. Hard to work with. Never ran well. Or hard the get to run well. Most who started in it gave up and went Sn3 or On3. But now.. super easy. Super good.

[@FishingwithChips]

@@ToyManTelevision Awesome history lesson! I've read about Blackstone models and they are amazing. I would really like to eventually get their generic-like 2-8-0 for a future layout project that would be a dual-gauge freelanced model railroad.

[@ToyManTelevision]

@@FishingwithChips hi again. And they are amazing people. We toured their factory in Durango. And their tsunami sound boards. Just amazing.

[@FishingwithChips]

@@ToyManTelevision Wow, very cool!😎👍

[@eottoe2001]

Thanks for covering this. Also thanks for clearing up the mystery of how 1:43 became "O" in a previous episode.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Thanks for watching!! Next Tuesday a deep dive into Proto 48. Then moving on to 1 gauge!

[@rrrailservicehoscalemodelr4734]

I started working in On30 early this year, tho, I cannot explain my fascination for narrow guagr, except that it seems in most parts of the country a lot of locos and cars were custom created in their region of work. Now my friend has me interested in HOn30 so my creativity is challenged further but I am enjoying the journey. It's all Bob's fault!

[@ToyManTelevision]

HOn30. Super super fun. Challenging though. Hard to find stuff. But a few resin kits made. Some older stuff.

[@chriskodani2543]

I like to say HOn30 is the poor man's narrow gauge! It's built on inexpensive N gauge equipment and track--so much fun in a small space!

[@hotwheelsbob2000]

WQW! I am learning so much! Thank you, guys, for doing this series.

[@ToyManTelevision]

No!! Thank you. It’s viewers that we do it for. Thank you for watching us

[@hotwheelsbob2000]

@@ToyManTelevision I started putting together a "toy" layout, as it seemed the many items I collected don't scale well with even themselves. I had a Marx train when I was young and then HO slot car tracks. Well after looking at the AFX and later slot cars, I knew they didn't really scale with HO trains. They were close to 1/64th scale but not exactly as the width didn't scale with their length. I was told 027 Marx was close to 1/64th scale, but not exactly. Since I was dealing with not exactly scales and I had thousands of Matchbox and Hot Wheels cars and Kenner's building sets, and Disneyworld Monorails and many other toys from my youth I decided to build my toy town layout. I have some videos on KZbin under the name hotwheelsbob2000 if you would like to see some of the beginning. Once I get everything running right, I will start landscaping.

[@joellekarma]

I so love Narrow gauge. I love my 0n30Layout.It fits in tight spots but is large with better detail. I so enjoy your videos. Keep up the great videos.

[@ToyManTelevision]

For me, the really sad thing is that Bachman only picked On30 so that they could use their existing HO track system on a Christmas train to go with Department 56 buildings. Almost immediately it was a hit and they had to come out with proper track system for it that looked more like O scale. So they could have made it On3. The difference being 6 scale inches. 1/8”. And the track could go around the same curves. And used existing track and be compatible with a bunch of other trains. But saving on track..

[@drewzero1]

I always wanted an SM32 layout but they're mostly popular in the UK. I recently discovered a lot of 3D printable model kits available online, and O gauge track and parts are easy enough to come by, so I've started building my own. Narrow gauge stuff is the cutest and there's a lot more room for 'fun' than the typical standard gauge layout.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. 16mm scale. Hot stuff! I’m thinking of the same thing. I have 2 old German O gauge. 1:45 scale steam locomotives. Mostly parts. But boy. Between both I could build a 2’ gauge SM32 (16mm).

[@d.l.hemmingway3758]

I am doing a switch from HO Scale to O Scale, but I did not want to waste the track I already have. So I switched to On30. This holiday season though I am getting some Bachmann HO EZ track so I can run a Christmas track plan at my Birthday Party.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Fun!!!

[@stevemellin5806]

Thank you.learning alot . Have a great week

[@ToyManTelevision]

Hi again. Thanks again.

[@tomklock568]

O O O keeping us on the straight and narrow...thanks guys! Who knew it would be so complicated! 😄

[@ToyManTelevision]

It’s not complicated! We just explain it in a way that it sounds complicated!

[@tomklock568]

@@ToyManTelevision ha ha!

[@tomas5376]

I don’t know what gauge my 70 year old tin train was, but it was fun! Wish I still had it. I never heard anyone really talk about gauge back then. Oh well⛵️⛵️⛵️⛵️⛵️🙏🏼

[@ToyManTelevision]

Hi How many rails did it have? 3 or 2? What country was this?

[@tomas5376]

@@ToyManTelevision I think it was just 2 rails and it was in the U.S. It was handed down from my grandfather 🚂🚂

[@ToyManTelevision]

@@tomas5376 probably American Flyer by Gilbert. Very popular in 1950. But had been around for quit some time by then.

[@plunkervillerr1529]

A wealth of knowledge.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Thanks!!

[@vincenthuying98]

Dear Dale and Karen, magnificent explanation on the emergence of narrow gauge in O-scale. Absolutely love the way in which you were able to display the very confusion which arose from the discrepancy of initial toy train manufacturing which led to the inherent flabbergasting anomalies of O-scale and O-gauge. Very cool word pun was the ‘widening.’ Anyhow, saw some Proto48 operating alongside partly dual gauge track. Whether ON3, ON2, or ON30; it looks fabulous. Very much love these gauges, although I haven’t yet been able to find space for such a layout. Cheerio

[@ToyManTelevision]

A layout can be as small as a 18” shelf. It is possible!! Build that layout!!

[@vincenthuying98]

@@ToyManTelevision MTA plus highly compressed Penn Station layout is in planning and preparation phase!!

[@LMR78]

Ah, On30. I’ve just started dabbling in the art of screwing around in On30. Started modeling the Colorado and Southern.

[@ToyManTelevision]

My first G scale railroad was the C and S! I still have all the locomotives. Well I never really get rid of anything. Anyway 3 moguls and 2 ten wheelers. Okay I know, C and S didn’t have ten wheelers. But screw that! I LIKE TEN WHEELERS.

[@LMR78]

@@ToyManTelevision i think that ten wheelers have a special place in every narrow gaugers heart.

[@rogerstrate5727]

Holy smoke, you just blew my mind. I'll have to watch this video 3 times to understand narrow gauge modeling, awesome video however. Have a great holiday season and Merry Christmas.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Hi again! This one is a bit confusing. But I think the gist of it is there.

[@david_pilling]

As they say in the computer world "The nice thing about standards is that you have so many to choose from". It's been an interesting series. Hope a viewer does a spread sheet. As a child I could never grasp why some of my trains where different sizes - now I know, some were made in France, HO scale. The others in England (in the sinful) OO scale. All ran on the same track, but I managed to have three different couplings.

[@ToyManTelevision]

I’m really looking forward to doing the HO versus 00 series. Really odd reasons why they did that. Really fun!

[@themodelhobbyist]

Very cool and complicated on the whole stuff but I do lover the show thanks for sharing. 🙂Thomas over at The Model Hobbyist

[@ToyManTelevision]

Hi again!!

[@Narrowgaugefilms]

My last really serous layout was On2 (Sandy River and Rangeley Lakes, 1927). It was a labor of love: all the track was hand-laid and after a while I started making my own turnouts too. I figured on laying about a foot of track per night and I valued every inch! -what was discouraging is many visitors who didn't even know what narrow gauge is were really surprised when such a train guy as me called what was obviously (to them) HO Gauge trains "O-Scale"! "That's not O!...Where's the third rail?! Where are the Lionel accessories?"

[@ToyManTelevision]

. Well it’s a labor of love. It’s pure joy. But few realize what they are looking at. It takes me a day to lay a switch. And at times I wish I needed more. Because a day.. 5 switches. Five days of joy. Well I’m betting I’ll get weeks out of the tunable.

[@Narrowgaugefilms]

Back when I was first building this layout, I was buying commercially made switches for like $20 a pop. (1980s dollars, I mean!). They were soldered on circuit board spacers and meant to be spiked down on wooden ties. I realized that I could make knockoffs at home for the sake of some Code 70 rail and some bending, forming and soldering, and using the moto tool to clear the flangeways in the frog. It was actually easy! I do believe there is On2 flex track available in these advanced modern times. If I start this up again, I think I would go that way now. (I think I made my point the first time!)

[@yardhog]

On2 1/2 was introduced in Railroad Model Craftsman magazine in the early 1970's. HO running gear with 1/48 scale bodies was a quick and cheap way to make 2' gauge or 3' gauge. Never meant to be exact prototypical narrow gauge, just a way of making narrow gauge trains on the cheap. O scale buildings, vehicles and people were used to continue the narrow gauge look. Bachmann did take up the On2 1/2 or On30 but by that time Peco had their own On30 pre-made track and switches. In the mid 2010's brass On30 engines were imported so On30 has taken hold in the O scale field. Also some On42, 42" gauge was being modeled using S scale (1/64th) standard gauge equipment running gear. An actual railroad in Canada was built to 42'" gauge in Newfoundland. Then onto another use of HO gauge track, only in S scale for use in Sn42 and Newfoundland modeling.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. But really obscure until Bachmann hit a home run with it

[@dtj9923]

Great video! I would make one minor adjustment, On30 has been around much, much longer than the initial Bachmann product offering. There has been a relatively large active On30 community as far back as the 1980s and possibly further. I've been modeling On30 since the late 80's so that's my frame of reference. In the early years it was definitely a lot of kit bashing, adaptation, and scratch building. Grandt Line always seemed to have a few On30 versions of their small locomotives and mine cars in their catalog. I think I own them all. Track was either hand laid or you just lived with unrealistic looking HO track. Bachman is still happily using unrealistic HO track with their On30 equipment. Bachmann absolutely launched On30 into the mainstream and Micro Engineering has supported this with their excellent On30 track (Hey Micro Engineering why can't you make the same amazing track in On3???). Sadly Precision Scale used to offer some excellent On2 track but nobody ever produced made RTR turnouts. That definitely limits adoption. If we want to get really small there's communities of On20 (HOn3 track) and also On18 (9mm N scale track) I dabble with both of these. On20 is fantastic if you don't like hand laying track but want super realistic mining scenes. I see a lot of really interesting On18 modeling from Japan and it also seems to have a pretty healthy following in Europe as well. Love your stuff! -DTJ

[@ToyManTelevision]

Hi and thanks again for watching. Yup. On18. And HOn18! On Z track!!! Just received some photos of such a layout.

[@dtj9923]

@@ToyManTelevision Ha yeah I recently got into true scale HOn2 modeling. Somehow my eyesight keeps getting worse but my models seem to get progressively smaller. Running HO scale models on Z size track can be pretty shaky business.

[@FunAtDisney]

OK I am going to chime in again: After all these years I finally know why my “Hawthorne Village Bachmann Disney Train Set Christmas Mickey Through the Years” set has HO gauge track! I got this set years ago (my brother got it for me actually) and I always wondered why the train scale was larger than the track scale. I thought it might have been OO scale as they have in England where they run on HO gauge track. I occasionally watch “Sam’s Trains” - he is based in London and has talked about that (I also have sent him links to your videos!). Mystery solved! So I has I have “On30” set!

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup!!!! At first they didn’t intend to offer anything other than the standard HO track! One of the most expensive things they produce is track. So it made a lot of sense to utilize what they had.

[@frankhellman6879]

The one thing that human beings all do really well is to make everything more complicated. BTW, for your finale episode in this series, are you going to talk about the possible return of the long retired TT scale? It would be interesting to hear your opinion on why this scale is being resurrected considering the cost to manufacturers supporting it.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Or…. 1:1 scale?

[@frankhellman6879]

@@ToyManTelevision Ain't nobody got room for 1:1 in their garage, basement or spare room!! Does Peco make track for that?

[@ToyManTelevision]

@@frankhellman6879 nope. Ya gotta hand lay.

[@ToyManTelevision]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/sJ-waGR6nqt8hpo

[@swamppy4880]

Bridgton& Harrison,W W & F Ry, SR&RL. Bridgton and Saco River. Edaville in Carver ma. All 2'narrow gauge. Forneys, outside frame. 2' narrow gauge also started in Billrica Mass use 2' too.

[@ToyManTelevision]

The guys and I got to run a 2’ Shay In Colorado years ago. And they had a SRRL coach!! JOY!!!!!!

[@Bigboy4018]

To further confuse the issue, add in the 00,009 and TT-120 gauges from the UK/Europe!

[@jenniferwhitewolf3784]

Also emerging in 1/4" scale is modeling in On18... 18" gauge based on the use of common 9mm track and mechanisms ( borrowed from N scale mass produced items)

[@ToyManTelevision]

We had that on the MRS railroad! Was fun! Steve had a bunch of it on his layout before tearing it apart. His were several short non operational sections. One underground! But the MRS railroad was fully functional.

[@jenniferwhitewolf3784]

@@ToyManTelevision I'm a life long O scaler, with feet in toy trains, O 2 rail, and On3... and now beginning to collect bits to get into On18.... My vision is to have N scale equipment operating as a miniature 'tourist' like with O scale passengers riding in gondola cars with seats, and than have the whole construction and maintain side of the operation in 'full size' O scale industrial stuff.. with a tram style internal combustion engine, tipping hoppers, flat cars, etc.. anything that would be used to build and maintain the 'miniature' line that uses N scale trains. I have a freight train already carrying O scale riders...and some track.. Its a lot of fun surrounded by 1/4" structures and people.

[@ToyManTelevision]

@@jenniferwhitewolf3784 I have quite a bit of HOe. Which is HOn2 1/2 in America. Also uses 9mm track but HO scale. I have a magnificent little Shay.

[@lesterolson5526]

To muddy the waters a little more, there are some modeling in On18. That is O scale cars running on N scale track. Don't that mess with your mind.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. Done that. Seen it done. Dave Meeks is building a portable o scale layout in On18. The… six gun railway? Something like that.

[@matrixlee6392]

Thanks a lot for this great episode! It's a shame for Bachmann not making On30 scale tracks anymore, the ties on HO tracks just don't look right with On30 trains.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Sounds like they may be back!

[@EdwardPiccoli]

Hi, love your channel. I have Bachmann ON30 Narrow gauge trains running on HO track. Is ON30 gauge really 1/48 scale (same as O gauge)? It seems O gauge engines and cars look bigger in size than the Bachmann ON30 Narrow gauge. I want to create some additional train cars for my on30. So what scale should I make them to match the Bachmann on30 gauge cars.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Hi. Yup O scale. 1/48. But they are narrow gauge prototypes. Three foot gauge. And smaller. Most cars are only 30’ long. Most standard gauge are 40 or 50 feet. And wider. And taller. So they look silly on an On30 layout. But structures and autos and figures… 1/48. And scratch built trains are 1/48.

[@Ken4trains]

I checked all the comments to make sure not repeating….but you left out Nn3…I don’t model that and as far as I know, the Z scale track doesn’t match the gauge (don’t quote me on that!) since I haven’t “gaged” it. Matter a fact, I built a scene on one of my modules with a static display of HOn18 mining operation. Original I wanted it operable with a reversible mechanism…build a mine engine over a Z scale motorized unit, but I didn’t realize I built a “S” curve it couldn’t negotiate, so that’s why it became a static display!

[@ToyManTelevision]

And it looks spectacular!!! Thanks fer the photos!!!! Amazing. 😮

[@spankyham9607]

As someone that doesn't get anal about scale and sizes, I love the bachmann On30 stuff. It use to be really dirt cheap too for some of the best locomotives. I was buying them at $50 on sale, and that was just a few years ago. and I couldn't believe then that they were so cheap. They run fantastic, look fantastic and are die cast metal so they pull epic. Hawthrone is a way to get them at a cheap price now days.

[@ToyManTelevision]

How do you put a price on fun?? Well.. with a sharpie??

[@Prewarpostwaramdmore]

And g-gauge just does their own thing.

[@ToyManTelevision]

In two weeks… 1 gauge. And OMG. As bad as O scale. Gee. Er G scale. 1 gauge meter prototype.

[@davidwayneprins]

I had seen On__ before but never knew what the heck the numbers meant. I did know On30 was O scale on HO track but the origins on the 30 eluded me. Since we are still on O gauge, another possible subject down the road is how does the Lionel reversing unit work? On my dad's ZW transformer, some engines reversed as soon as you pressed and released the direction toggle. Others went into a neutral mode first and thus required a second use of the direction toggle. You mentioned in the "why is Lionel 3 rails" that it involves rearranging the magnets. But how did the magic happen? I know some people would somehow slave one engine off another for doing double headers and not having the reversing units fall out of sync. My dad, brother ad I usually locked the reversing units in forward and hoped we never had to back up.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Hi. A stepper relay. A small drum that rotated a small amount every time you cut the power. Now AC motors only have wire wound electro magnets. Will not work with permanent magnets. The AC makes the magnetic field alternate as well. So as one set is alternating in one direction the other is out of phase causing the motor to spin in one direction. Reverse the polls of that magnet and the motor spins the other way. So that has to Happen inside the locomotive. Early locomotives had a switch. Later this was a stepper relay. So every time you turn the power off the poles reverse. Now.. add a third position to the relay and you can cut power between steps of the relay adding a “neutral”.

[@carmenbaylines190]

Do you guys know any really good site for HOn30 buildings and such

[@ToyManTelevision]

Well buildings are HO. It’s all HO scale. But the HOn2 1/2 is a size of HO train. Also called HOn30 and HOe. Check eBay and search for those three sizes. There is a guy selling resin cast cars. And some brass and locomotive kits.

[@ToyManTelevision]

He calls his cars LMH Funaro.

[@pbyfr]

That's only a part of the possibilities, you missed 0m, 0e, 0f, O16.5, O14 and also On18

[@ToyManTelevision]

Or… how about 16mm scale? Also known as SM 32? Not O scale but O gauge. In 1:20.3 scale. For modeling 2 foot gauge British trains…

[@pbyfr]

@@ToyManTelevision 16mm is from times to times in the Narrow Gauge & Industrial Railway Modelling REVIEW, but I never tried or seen a model in real. And I don't dare to do it, as the details possibilities are a lot greater than 7mm, but it would take so much place.

[@Astro_dreagonz]

I just got a g scale narrow gauge 4-6-0 it needs a small overhaul but it’s good

[@ToyManTelevision]

Depends on the version of that model but heck yes it’s a great model. Did you see our show on it? Bachmann 4-6-0. Anyway I’m sort of rebuilding one of the original battery operated ones into a scale locomotive with DCC. I hope… project is on a shelf..

[@ToyManTelevision]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/eZPPmKCBd7JgjJY

[@crazysdk]

I expect a full report on narrow gauge all the way down to using T gauge track for narrow gauge Z and N scale.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Hope to do nano.

[@krissfemmpaws1029]

Oh boy another confusing mess... but the On3 On2 makes sense and is understandable. It tells you the scale of the equipment and buildings and the track gauge with no guessing.

[@ToyManTelevision]

The narrow gauge people mostly have it right. In all scales. Well… except 1/2” scale.

[@krissfemmpaws1029]

@@ToyManTelevision there has to be those couple of weirdos... ;-)

[@154Colin]

It's not confusing, really! 😱Clear as mud. 😂 Seriously, Proto 48 is definitively the "Pure Gauge" 👍IMO. Unfortunately just like the infancy of the internet everyone jump on the "Me, Me Bandwagon" and left the standards be-damned 🤬 But I digress... Happy holidays' 🌲🌲

[@ToyManTelevision]

Thanks again. We are watching snow fall. Like watching paint dry except you don’t need to shovel paint. So off to fire up the snow blower.

[@edmcnamara8747]

Your N is backwards on your graphics making it even more confusing

[@ToyManTelevision]

It’s a tippy z

[@ChristopherBrown-mq1lg]

Will there be a test at the end of this series? 😂 if so I will be absent that day! Very interesting stuff 👍

[@ToyManTelevision]

More of a quiz. 235 questions though.

[@caseyvillemodelrailroad3877]

soo 2 plus 2 really is 5 like my kid said ... i think... gargraves 0 gauge track makes a perfect 2.5" narrow track if you cut off the third rail and use hornby trucks tweaked abit. ill keep the larger flange for the Yard layout.

[@ToyManTelevision]

It’s sort of half… thickness of the rail but other than that, yup.

[@markdeschane4467]

I'm a On30 modeler. I want to model a portion of the Colorado Southern and would love it if someone made a Kit for an On 3 or even On30 Colorado and Southern Bobber Cabosse. Can you help me?

[@ToyManTelevision]

Geee. Kits no. But buy some evergreen plastic sheet and build the sucker!! It’s FUN.

[@markdeschane4467]

Have done that and that is an option! However, the wheels and undercarriage is the problem. Thanks for the comeback!.

[@finlayfraser9952]

Phew!

[@ToyManTelevision]

A lot to cover.

[@KYBLUELEX]

Your explanation of the origin of 0n30 is incorrect. On30 originated with modelers in the early 1950s modifying HO locomotives, building on the running gear of HO equipment. Bachmann entered On30 in 1998 for the Christmas Village market.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Well… I didn’t say origin. Bachmann came up with this product line as a Christmas village set… On30, HOe and a bunch of narrow gauge models were first built by people screwing around!!! As it should be!!

[@SuperiorWhiteKing]

Imagine your wife talking purses with you on this _level_ , well that's how she feels about this, it's obvious. get a train Buddy that's interested.

[@hexazalea]

Am i he only one who hears a small beeping in their left ear when using headphones? It really distracting ive been putting this comment off for a few days because its kinda painful.

[@ToyManTelevision]

No idea what that is…

[@iannarita9816]

L gauge anybody? Thx again

[@ToyManTelevision]

Sounds like L. Er… oh L. What’s L?

[@ToyManTelevision]

Lego??? Oh geeee g scale.

[@corgidog6756]

All this seems so complicated. I do not have a train set but have wanted to build one for many years. I love watching the videos of the various train sets or layouts and get many great ideas. But this scale business has me confused. As a beginner I thought the basic HO scale was a good starting point. If I understand correctly, it seems to me that gauge only really matters when you start building a set that includes an entire city or town, with all the many extra features outside of your train and track; You want all the sizes to look real and match. Does gauge matter if you are just dealing with trains and track only, and no scenery, buildings or anything else other than some track and some trains. I must be an idiot or maybe this has become over complicated. Maybe this is part of the growing process when you graduate from a basic track only oval, up to a real layout with accessories.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Not really complicated. First decide what you want to model and how much space you have. If you like modern class A railroading you need a lot of space and small scale. HO scale curves will be about 48” radius if you want a good look. In N scale the curves will be half that. If you love structures HO is great because you can make great looking structures and they aren’t too large. A huge building may be only 2 feet wide and a foot tall. Notice I’m saying SCALE. Gauge is based on the prototype so if that’s any standard gauge trains like modern Class A or older main line steam it’s all the same. HO gauge and HO scale the same thing.

[@corgidog6756]

@@ToyManTelevision HO would be the way for me.