Train Your Fruit Trees- Late Spring, Setting the Branch Angles and Checking Growth

Follow up on a Pear tree demonstration of training fruit trees to modified central leader. Train branch angles, check on growth and competition.
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[@lennanbate9787]

Please go on for hours, I'm happy to watch and listen ! Thanks for sharing all of this great insight, your approach to fruit tree training really speaks to me Cheers from Ariège France

[@SkillCult]

Thanks :)

[@BenjasUberHobby]

That is really cool. Good luck with it :) Thanks for sharing :)

[@porkcheeks]

Such awesome editing. I love that you built the sentences you wanted. That must have been so much work just for my benefit. Thank you

[@beemanrunning977]

You are very good at explaining the "why" of what you are doing. Your analogies are awesome too.

[@OakKnobFarm]

Awesome video, thanks for the info. I can't wait to see how quick your splint heals I love the clothespin trick, too... simple, cheap, perfect!

[@mvblitzyo]

Another video full of hands of experience from a educated point of view ..

[@SkillCult]

That's the idea :)

[@jarrahgilmour86]

Great series thanks a lot! I'll be attempting your method on 2 pears, an apricot and fig in a few months!

[@TheTNXXX]

I just got a shinseiki pear that's just a 6 foot whip from base to the top. I was going to lop it off at knee height but glad I found out about notching. Your videos were the most informative about doing this. Thank you very much!

[@SkillCult]

Check this out. It worked really well. Another refinement to the technique :) kzbin.info/www/bejne/eHPQeaiGpNBmrZo

[@rajender13]

Shoots that grow out of notched buds can be trained easily when they are very young/small with "toothpicks" that are sharp on both ends and are pierced into apple tree skin so as to make some sort of a equilateral triangle between vertical leader, fresh shoot and the toothpick stick itself (if it makes any sense :p). This method prevents branch splitting that happens with hardened shoots and gives almost perfect angles .

[@SkillCult]

Cool, now that you say that I think I might remember reading about it somewhere. I've had trouble on very young shoots as I remember with them breaking at the trunk because that connection is so weak. I'll experiment more with that. Thanks. I'd also like to set up a trial where the shoots are allowed to emerge without notching and as soon as the branch angles are set, then notch them to drive growth into them. That could work in conjunction with disbudding, because if enough growing points are removed, usually most of what is left will grow out if the tree has a lot of resources and growth impetus. Then see if those late notched shoots still gain dominance over the others and run to more of a leader type growth.

[@rajender13]

@@SkillCult I have had mixed results with late notching... I think it is good for forcing out failed nothings and fresh ones where need arises because of the shoots that may have been lost due to various causes. But the main issue is - late notching would happen during hot and humid days of the year. This causes issues with a lot of fungus and mites, bugs etc getting easy access to tree's main system that is otherwise protected by the skin normally. That's why I was like cringing while looking at you opening up those filled up notch areas. Some of my friends would not leave these notches exposed wide open even for a single day and they use latex paints to cover up wounds right after the notching is done. As far as issue of breaking of fresh shoots while bending and training is concerned, I think shoots between 5 to 8 or 9 inches that have skin firm enough to withstand the effect of a piercing toothpick are ideal. One can introduce a "gentle bend" initially leaving aside main crotch angle and after about one week move the needle downward direction on the vertical leader. BTW thanks a lot for your informative videos and for reading this long reply :p

[@SkillCult]

@@rajender13 Thanks for those details. I've used notching quite a lot to force growth on bare stems, which is so common in some varieties and crucial to correct on some restricted forms. It's always good to hear from people in areas where conditions are very different. Here, we have very light disease pressure. It has been a wet cool spring, but that is unusual and I don't think twice about cutting anything or opening wounds at any time of year. I just prefer that they be small ones whenever possible. One thing I've done that I would like to experiment with more and encourage others to try is smearing fresh pine pitch on cuts. It is antimicrobial and should seal completely. As far as I have seen so far, it has no negative effect on growth, but I've not use it extensively.

[@rajender13]

@@SkillCult I haven't tried the pine sap till now. I extracted little amount of pine sap but could not get bees wax and other ingredients well in time. I'll definitely try it out in future. Thanks again :) and ttyl ;)

[@mymustangs]

@@SkillCult have you tried propolis? As a bee keeper I have been thinking of other uses for it.

[@daveyjoweaver5183]

Another great video Steven. I have used your instruction for non fruit trees. Here in my woods there is so much competition that if I want something to grow in a certain direction, your methods work well on many trees I want to dominate. Thanks as always! DaveyJO

[@SkillCult]

Neat to hear. My working assumption is that most species will respond pretty well to the reduction of growing points and notching. Sweet cherry is the only one I have had a lot of trouble training how I want it, not even using these methods, but just in general. Someone else confirmed the same problem.

[@nineallday000]

Thanks for the update you are amazing! I think the important thing with your method is that it isnt a cookie cutter aproach of "cut open the center so you can throw a cow through" or whatever standard advice is, modified central leader training and debudding and notching is more intuitive and allows a person to actively think about the trees future form. It seems like most people that I have pruned with have ground rules that they follow blindly without actively thinking about why they are doing anything they are donig, and I am talking about professional fruit growers who do that. Thinking 40 years or 100 years in the future with every cut is hard to do but you have to do that if you are aiming for a long lived productive tree, and taking intuitive interventions early on just saves you so much in the long run.

[@SkillCult]

Throw a cow through lol :) lI tend to grow my trees a little more dense, mostly because suburn is such a problem here.

[@bobbrawley2612]

Very interesting

[@chrisp4170]

Will be interesting to see if the trees grow in that much shade

[@quintond.7888]

Thanks Steven :) I keep meaning to email you a picture of my parent's pear. I always thought it was a Bartlett, but my Dad says it's something more primitive, and still alive at almost 130.

[@SkillCult]

Pear trees can live a very long time. How do you now the age?

[@SkillCult]

or is your dad 129 ;)

[@quintond.7888]

@@SkillCult lol! Dad just turned 68. The tree was planted by my great great Grandfather somewhere between 1880 when he homesteaded and 1890 when he built his home. There is a sibling tree where his parents lived, also still alive.

[@SkillCult]

Neat. I hope you're dad makes it to 130 tho. :)

[@rogernolte1704]

My Kingston Black apple tree whip grew branches w/narrow angles because the clothes pins wouldn't stay in place, fell off, and I gave up on them. I am thinking I will try to bend them downward next spring when the leaves begin to grow and the wood becomes most pliable. I make bent willow trellises and furniture, you see, and learned that, when the leaves are first growing, the sticks bend easily. The bark can also be stripped off completely with little effort as well. With any luck, I am hoping, the apple tree branches will bend as easily as the willow and I can tie the branches downward or weight them in some way to establish the proper angles. ;-)

[@SkillCult]

I have good luck with the clothespines, but often double them up and have even trippled them. there other other spreaders like toothpicks or notched sticks that might stay put better if it's windy or something. Don't break all your nice branches trying to get perfect angles :) Remember, it's only the angle right at the crotch that really matters to preven bark inclusion.

[@T3hJones]

Great I will try some of this on an apple tree I planted last year. Some branch angles arent big enough.

[@SkillCult]

It can be tricky once they harden up. Be careful if the branches are a full year old. Well, I guess you just have to be careful any time!

[@T3hJones]

​@@SkillCult I have no fear!

[@SkillCult]

weeellll, maybe you should havc a little :)

[@geriannroth449]

So much information WOW. Can you zoom in abit more on this notching technique please?

[@goodmusic3679]

Excellent video, very helpful to a novice apple grower. Would this be the time to remove any suckers emerging from the rootstock? Also, would applying a fish fertilizer at this point help promote the growth of the scaffold branches?

[@SkillCult]

I'm sloppy about fertilizing and not sure what the best timing is. Best to do it not too late in the season though so it has time to slow and harden off. The early growth push usually slows pretty fast, but you can definitely sometimes push another growth spike with food and water until the tree has really decided it's going dormant. I like to pull suckers early and rip them away so they take more of the buds with them, whereas cutting can leave them on the tree. That's how I usually do it. Or I don't do it at all and regret it later.

[@bassburnsify]

Excellent stuff! If you can film it for hours, I can watch it for hours....

[@hamburger512]

“I don’t think I’m going to break it” .5 seconds later “Oh no! I broke it!”

[@jameskniskern2261]

The challenge with long term university level studies, is well, the long term aspects. The grad student wants to get a project, do the research and graduate. A study like you suggest will take at least 5 years. Better at 10, with hundreds of trees, and controls as well. So that would be a huge undertaking, with very little (monetary) gain. It will be hobbists like me and others to do the heavy lifting on this. And we're on it. I didn't find your tree trainging videos until after my winter/spring pruning, so I'll be on the bandwagon next winter. Peace.

[@SkillCult]

good points. I don't really know how that works, but someone does long term studies at universities. The problem is, I don't know how much they really care about home growers anymore and I'm thinking that trials aimed at serving commercial growers would be more narrow in scope. I definitely like the idea of a disseminated effort.

[@nateb8245]

Do you try to set the branch angles on the little top-of-tree centerpiece thing? Or let those grow more vertically?

[@SkillCult]

Sometimes. I'm more likely to just pick ones that are right. If there are none, you can also just keep cutting the top back until you get something okay.

[@alisonburgess345]

i've got a few 3 years old dwarf apples which are pruned and heading for vase form which i don't want. Can I now choose one single branch and retrain it to a central leader? And can I do it in summer (I'm in Australia) or should I wait till they're dormant? Thanks - great video..

[@SkillCult]

I'd say it's likely possible, but hard to guess what the results and consequences might be without seeing them. If they are not too large and there are buds or branch options, it might be possible, but it is usually best to start sooner. Vase has it's advantages for light and sometimes ease of maintenance. It's not the longest lived form, but dwarfs don't live a long time anyway.

[@alisonburgess345]

@@SkillCult Thanks for that. I'll risk it with the most obvious candidate and leave the other three I think..

[@jesusv.5828]

I been using the notching technique after watching you vids . I been very succesful with apples ,peaches , paw-paw , and other trees but ... sweet cherries have been a lot harder to train this way .Did you had the same experience with sweet cherries ?

[@SkillCult]

Yes! Exactly the same. They really, really want to grow tiers or whorls of branches with bare stems in between. If the whorls were closer together fine, but if they are 3 and 4 feet apart, not as great. I have gotten some okay forms, but Probably mostly by heading back each year as need so that they really kind of have to throw some branches for us to work with. There must be more that can be done. Perhaps not just notching, but partial girdling, just enough to disrupt the hormonal activity, but heal up very fast so as not to really hurt the tree. Kind of dicey, but hey, risks are required sometimes to figure stuff out. Glad to hear of your other successes. I'd like a fuller report anytime on effectiveness on diff species and effect on branch angles or anything else. Thanks for checking in with that.

[@mytech6779]

I have a "rescue' pear and it just wants to make vertical growth and narrow crotches. Even with spreading it keeps reverting.(although I think something/somebody is knocking off my spreaders which doesn't help)

[@SkillCult]

all you really need to do is get the initial angle out from the branch a few inches. that is the thing that matters, the attachment point. Pears want to be upright for the most part, you can keep fighting it, but it's a long term proposition. You might try tying the main scaffolds out and after one year they should set that way and stay put. except the new growth

[@tavyfavorite1149]

My jujube tree grow straight up and have short skinny branch like fish bone. So if i want shoot to grow long branch by notch? How do you force My jujube tree to grow suckers? My tree is 15 ft tall, hard to reach fruits. I wanted to turn it into a bush . do you think if I cut down the tree to 4 feet tall Will this tree grow suckers.

[@SkillCult]

It might work and is worth trying. I think if you cut it low, it will throw some strong shoots, but I would try notching first. Just pick a few branches that you want to grow a framework shape from and notch those. It can help to remove the branches you don't want too. Just like cutting the tree low, it will force what is left (your notched branches) to grow out more.

[@daiprout323]

Re flexing branches- picking a day when the tree is needing water and wilting slightly?

[@SkillCult]

Sounds reasonable. Timing might not work out, but I could see that being a little better if it did.

[@mytech6779]

that may work better for very green growth, once it starts to get woody you may find no benefit.

[@sherikream]

Notching can be done at any time, and multiple times in the same area?

[@SkillCult]

It seems most effective before the buds break and start growing. I use it anytime I want something to grow and sometimes more than once a season, though there are no guarantees. Lately I've taken to ringing trees with a saw to get branches to grow out that are being stubborn. Not on little stuff like this, but on larger grafts and small branches. It seems to work really well as long as it heals up quick.

[@Jay-tk7ib]

Pear tree limbs break much easier than other trees. Now how do I know that?

[@SkillCult]

lol

[@mytech6779]

But they also grow replacements fast. Even with limiting nitrogen.

[@andreasheij]

We've got a couple of apple and pear trees, where the bark is shedding. There's just a tiny strip of cambium left, basically. Do you have an advise on how to go about that? The trees are about 7 years old, totally full of leaves and lots of fruit already. Just looks realy unhealthy.

[@SkillCult]

Hard to say with out looking what it is. Here I would think borers first, but there are probably so many different things that could cause necrosis like that.

[@jeffreydustin5303]

I broke a y-notch on my pear tree...darn things are fragile!

[@SkillCult]

They are!

[@carl3233]

what state do live in.

[@SkillCult]

California zone 9

[@robertbrawley5048]

So you take out the branch that is growing like gangbusters. That what I wanted to know. Many other channels say to take out. Prune out the weaker branches and for me who is striving more towards decorative tree structure the vigorous branch is usually not the one I want to grow. I was confused by the admonition to take out the weaker branch and the effects of energy redirection to the lesser branches

[@SkillCult]

That's the problem with what i call dummy rules. They lack any context. You can't say either is true, just that you do one or the other to achieve certain goals. If the goal is balance, then you can try to encourage scaffolds that land in the place you want, but are a bit weak, or discourage over-vigorous ones, or even take them out.

[@robertbrawley5048]

@ the ten 22 time mark about increasing the crotch angle i have broken off my fare share of desirable branches. I now brace the vertical branch with what I have at hand malleable wire tape or velcro straps up the branch at least an inch away from the joint with the trunk where the end actually occurs On a plum I snapped the joint hinged it back in place last summer and the velcro tape I used to brace the repair is still in place . I don't dare remove it 9 moths after the fact

[@SkillCult]

@@robertbrawley5048 I'm working on a prophylactic solution to that problem, that I show in the video that is about to premier in 45 minutes! Definitely a problem...kzbin.info/www/bejne/iIa8Z4NupbWmabM

[@robertbrawley5048]

I'm @ the 13:27 time mark one channel recommended purposefully to break a branch and let it hang . In that case you break the branch upstream from the joint. Well I forgot what the purpose of that video lesson was about but have often left the branches that I crack at the joint just hang and its Incredimail how well they leaf out the following spring just barely attached to the tree

[@robertbrawley5048]

@ the 17:00 time mark you retouch the growing limb. I have never done that but I will definitely do so from now on for weak growing. Branches that are the more desirable crotch angle and and direction I was reading the Cummins nursery information on the mostly Geneva rootstock they sale and the rootstock of certain varieties influence the crotch angle of the cultivar. The scion choice G 930 something , 936 perhaps and there was another one as well

[@agpawpaw5912]

Why do you notches instead of just cut top? Any way it’s too tall.

[@SkillCult]

I have other content on that which was linked in the video. notching allows me to pick exactly which buds I want to grow out, so I have them at the level I want and the direction I want. removing some of the buds, guides more of the energy into those chosen buds. If the whip is tall enough, i also get all my branches in one year. Heading back is uncertain. You may get branches where you want them, but probably not. The branches tend to cluster below the heading cut, not sprout out evenly along the stem. Everyone says you must head back at planting, but I have not found it to be necessary and it doesn't give me any control at all on branch selection.

[@SkillCult]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/onbWZ6achK6GrLMsi=e8ij-Z6SYKBr1_du

[@agpawpaw5912]

@@SkillCult thanks.

[@agpawpaw5912]

I do agree with you by notching you can get branches where you want.

[@MrWhiltetail]

Instead of really pushing it to the edge & risking breakage, why not just put the cloths pin on it & adjust it every few days after it has had a chance to stretch out & start to take a slight set? In 2-3 weeks you could have it where you want it.

[@SkillCult]

Because I won't actually do it :) but it's a good idea!

[@heyye007]

Good work but all of them from old nodes.Very poor productive branches.Make it 90 degree angle and pluck the leaf of proleptic branch for get productive syleptic branclets.It's very difficult to get results in the shade.Because the amount of light is very effective on these branch types and the duration of these sleeping nodes.Good luck.