Trapdoor Rifles- 'What do we do with all these dang old front-stuffers now?'

After the US Civil War the army was confronted with a new reality- muzzle-loaders were obsolete. But they had all these old rifled muskets...
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[@Buddha-of8fk]

I have my 2x Great Grandfather's 45-70 trapdoor Springfield. A few years ago l took it hunting and got a big doe with it. Gave me a smile. Still feeding the family generations later.

[@tinkertalksguns7289]

Awesome!

[@marstondavis]

At 150 years old they can still put a hole in you...a great big hole.

[@bhartley868]

Dang old front stuffers I thought you were talking about me

[@mkshffr4936]

🤣🤣🤣

[@jpay37]

Add this to the list of “things Tinker taught me that I never knew existed.” Great video!

[@Thoroughly_Wet]

A trapdoor Springfield, a dream rifle to get a hold of.

[@dennistate5953]

Used to work 4 a guy name o Howie Tinker. Heckuva guy. Nice playtime!

[@daleharvey3278]

The 1866 was a conversion,sleeved from .58 to 50 cal

[@DirtyFrigginHarry]

One of my grail guns is a trapdoor carbine in 45-70, And it definitely doesn't have anything to do with Red Dead Redemption. A .577 Snider Howdah pistol is also a grail gun, and I suppose that would need a companion long arm.

[@PhillipFelix-kw3zi]

Wow, if those old rifles could talk. Thanks for sharing especially the English rifle.

[@brucelivingstone365]

Britain may have started replacing the Snider with the Martini Henry in the 1880s but it was still in Militia armories in the 20th century . It seems they had converted 350,000 Enfields by 1867. The Imperial Indian Army, a much larger force than the British one, used the Snider until the late 1890s and the weapon also found its way into Mounted Constabulary (Police) units throughout the British colonies. It seems Britain had converted 350,000 Enfields by 1867 and some were taken out of armories and issued (to rear echelon units) in WW1.

[@TheGunfighter45acp]

Another outstanding review. I too, could find room in the safe for a carbine version of that wonderful '63! 👍👍

[@thefirstmissinglink]

I've an H&R Buffalo Classic. Changed out the wood furniture for synthetic, added large multiples of shot in the rear to slow the recoil to a nice shove. I won't bench it, however a 6" pattern at 671 yds off hand is available. And... it is my coming down gun after several 12.7x99😊 Told a gal I had something more fun than sex. After her first shot with the 45-70 she was giddy with delight and begging for more. I love the engineering and ingenuity that goes into this stuff.

[@energizerwolf5574]

You poor little soul.... i wish i had the facepalm emoji.

[@Salieri47]

My attempt to edit won't post. Very cool old conversions, thanks for sharing!

[@Gunsgame1966]

Loved this video , I’m biased I’m a riflemen, can you please do more of these types of vids mate ? Also I think your old microphone worked better then these new noise reduction one does just my two cents worth ! Keep up the good work cheers Wrighty

[@FredCheckers]

I love that in the USA, the guns that the term "fire arm" was coined to describe are not legally fire arms.

[@Gunsgame1966]

Yeah we in Australia can’t have an antique firearm unless it’s been disarmed to the point of ruining its value! Never lose your 2nd amendment

[@richardross7219]

Over 60 years ago, we used an 1873 Springfield with greenie stickem caps. The same with a Smith Carbine. In those days nobody wanted to play with black powder. In high school they were traded off for shotguns. Nice video. Good Luck, Rick

[@PassivePortfolios]

It was a rather ingenious system but it was made obsolete by lever action and falling block action rifles.

[@philipdepalma4672]

Militaries were not getting a lot of funding at that time so converting existing guns that they had in large number seemed a better/cheaper answer than buying new. And it took time to develop lever guns that could reliably function with full power military rifle rounds and even longer to convince the generals that they could trust their men to accurately fire repeaters and that their logistics could keep them supplied.

[@artfulalias3984]

The 1864 rolling block and 1885 falling block are to this day elegant solutions for a single shot action, saving a cartridge length+ from over all length. Or adding that much to barrel length in the same OAL. (Compared to single shot bolt action)

[@daveyjoweaver6282]

Just Lovely old Guns! And guns with a history and a half as well! There’s something very special about firing period antique rifles and guns, like shooting history I always say. When you think of hundreds or thousands of lead balls going back and forth? Well it’s amazing that anyone survived. The soldiers of the day were as tough as their rifles and guns,hot days, wool uniforms, heavy packs and 20-30 miles to march! I often shoot my old musket the day before I visit Gettysburg, which is 65 miles west of my home. It gives me a deep appreciation for those amazing soldiers. Kind Thanks, Many Blessings and Good Shootin! DaveyJO in Pennsylvania

[@kevanhubbard9673]

Well the ancestors could have melted them down and started again but then you wouldn't have had such interesting devices to look at!I don't think i have ever seen a gun from Nepal, a place that I have never been but would love to go although I think that it'd be a toss up between Bhutan or the Maldives if I went on holiday to one of the countries that encircle India.

[@hercules1073]

I've got an old Southern trapdoor 45-70 cutdown that I keep contemplating on whether I want to line it or convert it to something else or just trade it off... I've had it sitting so long now it'll probably end up someone else's problem when I'm gone.

[@daleharvey3278]

If your td is in decent shape,you can load 65gr of fffg w a cast bullets,or a light charge of smokeless... Stay with cast bullets...maybe a hollow base to bump up as bore dia varied.

[@loquat44-40]

On the 577 one can use 24 ga brass shotgun shells to make the 577 snider rounds.

[@michaellavaughnrobinson]

Is that like from Quigley down under? I always loved that one as a kid.

[@tinkertalksguns7289]

@@michaellavaughnrobinson No, he had a Sharps rifle.

[@cowtipper6705]

VERY cool, thanks for sharing

[@bernard8272]

During the 1930's when my dad was a kid they used an old 45-70 trapdoor with .410 shells to hunt rabbits.

[@mkshffr4936]

Exposing your breech could get you arrested. 😇

[@P_RO_]

The original US "trapdoor" was a result of Army tests of conversion methods,sand this was submitted by a man named "Allin" (note spelling is correct).So it was initially known as the "Allin conversion" and was judged to be superior to other methods tried. It also used more of original unaltered parts which saved the Army money and that's a big factor in why it was chosen. Too many worn out 58 bores brought the 50-70-450 cartridge with a 'rainbow' shaped trajectory and complaints about recoil, so they decided on the 45-70-405. Later they increased the bullet weight to 500gr, and they also loaded a version for carbines with only 55gr of powder to reduce recoil. While the ejection seen on Tinker's gun was snappy, that wasn't always the case (pun intended). Early brass cases were inconsistent with many splitting on firing. Worse was that some boffin, thinking they only needed brass near the breech, decided to make the front of the case from rolled waxed paper.These sealed powder gasses well and fired as long as they didn't get wet- then they wouldn't chamber at all. Worst was that they tended to stick in the chamber and you had to pry the fired case out with a knife point; not a fun thing in battle. More fun was when the prying only pulled the brass part out, leaving the paper part firmly stuck in the chamber with the soldier having no tools to remove it. It is said that many of Custer's men were found with knives clearly showing they were used to pull stuck rounds as well as guns with stuck rounds in them. With as few as 30% of their guns working at times, the enemy who lacked any guns with that long range ability, was able to get within the range of their guns, many of which were lever action repeaters, and overwhelm Custer's band. Had all of Custer's men's guns worked correctly they could have probably held their own till help arrived.Shortly thereafter they were able to perfect manufacture of the all-brass cartridge case and the 45-70 gained a reputation for being a good long-range cartridge, and the Trapdoor rifle a good platform for it, until smokeless powder came along. The trapdoor lasted in official use through the Spanish-American was for reservists, volunteers, and non-front line troops. When we entered WW1 many National Guard units still had Trapdoors, but were given modern guns before they went overseas. After that war ended, the Army sold off all it's Trapdoors as surplus with many going to Bannerman's who sold them for as little as $1.50 apiece. The Navy had long abandoned theirs except for a conversion to a line-throwing gun to pass a rope to other ships, and in that format some were still being issued and used till after the Korean war. Quite a history for a cheap way to re-use rifled muskets!

[@tinkertalksguns7289]

Wow! Thanks for that wealth of information!

[@P_RO_]

@@tinkertalksguns7289 I'm no expert on these, I just found the history fascinating an thought I'd share it. The British had similar cartridge problems plus a large batch of rifles which were issued to combat troops with unregulated sights so 'alf yer bullets fly wide in the ditch

[@MarlinWilliams-ts5ul]

I believe Mr. Allin worked at the Springfield Armory, Springfield, Mass.

[@P_RO_]

@@MarlinWilliams-ts5ul You're right. I went "into the rabbit hole" on these ages ago when starting a collection.Trapdoors were just beginning to go up in price, but looking back the common ones were still cheap. Life happened and I never got one.

[@mpetersen6]

When the US went to smokeless powder .30 caliber versions were built for testing purposes.

[@rickgaston7118]

Well done

[@Jarozila]

Great video. These would be a lot of fun to own.

[@jiddo4440]

Nice video, glad I found you .new subscriber

[@BretMTx]

That was a very interesting video.

[@dbmail545]

Were those cartridges loaded with a BP substitute? A lot less smoke than I anticipated.

[@tinkertalksguns7289]

they sure fouled the bores like BP!

[@daviddavey1727]

You can’t use full strength modern smokeless 45/70 loads

[@tinkertalksguns7289]

Definitely not! Good catch, I should have mentioned that in the video.

[@bt4839]

I imagine the troops were over joyed to get the carbine version! Both of those would have been a lot to hump around in the military! Great video!

[@loquat44-40]

It was necessary for the 45-70 to come up with a lighter recoiling carbine load. The bullet and the powder charges were lighter.

[@michaellavaughnrobinson]

Wow awesome video Tinker. Say is there a connection between springfield and enfield? I know springfield is in the states, but always wondered that.

[@tinkertalksguns7289]

Not so far as I know.

[@Tammy-un3ql]

👌👌👌👌

[@rustyauerswald1069]

Oo a Allen conversion..correct ?

[@tinkertalksguns7289]

A descendant of it certainly!

[@rexfrommn3316]

All those muzzle loading rifles should have been sold on the second hand market to Latin American countries oe elsewhere. The US Army should have adopted the much better Remington Rolling block rifles. The US Army was only about 50,000 troops in the early 1870's. So equipping this number of soldiers with the Remington Rolling block was NOT financially unaffordable. The US Army should have adoped some 1870's Winchester repeaters too for higher volumes of fire. A platoon of repeating Winchesters within a company troops armed with Remington Rolling blocks would have had a good volume of fire for infantry tactical fire missions.

[@leonhart2452]

The trap door was a way to use front stuffer parts but none were ever converted. They were all made from new parts.

[@tinkertalksguns7289]

Certainly the .45-70 guns used new parts, but the information provided by the owners of these guns suggests early guns were in fact converted. Not really in my wheelhouse so I'll let others argue the point.

[@garrettfromsmokeinthewoods]

The model 1865 trapdoor model 1866 model 1868 model 1870 and model 1881 shotgun all were trapdoors made from civilwar guns

[@telesniper2]

First! 🏆