Trombone Comparison, Bach-Xeno-Xeno

If you enjoy this video please visit www.richbegel.com for more videos and information.

[@matthewlin4551]

I have a Yamaha 882G and I love it

[@johnjenkinsmusic1]

I really appreciate this comparison. Thank you for taking the time to do so.

[@richardbegel5423]

That’s nice to hear, so thanks! I’ll be revamping my website and KZbin page within the year so I’ll be sure to keep this one up.

[@richardbegel5423]

I must say, I am now selling the Xenos! I came across a 1966 Conn Elkhart 88H and while it may not be the last horn I ever own (I am in a transition period right now), I can not resist the warm tone. More videos to come!

[@mattdoubleday]

Thank you for this - great playing of horns you are not necessarily used to. First, I'm a bass trombone player only now (I do own a tenor and was a tenor player at college). What your video tells me is that Bachs are hard work - but it's worth it. Yes, the Yamahas are more consistent - easier if you like - but the warmth and fullness from the Bach wins it for me.

[@richardbegel5423]

Thanks Matthew, it's always good to hear that I helped someone. I now play an Edwards T350HB*, a 1934 Conn 8H (very impressive horn with a modern Conn S leadpipe), and my backup is a Benge 190f. So the personal trombone library has changed!

[@NotSkilledHere]

As a trombone player and a car enthusiast, particularly Yamaha and Lexus, i see many people echoing my thoughts that Yamaha Xeno line horns are much like Lexus. Both are extraordinarily consist. Both are relatively recent. I understand Yamaha horns have been around forever but the xeno line in particular is relatively recent. Actually somewhat similar in age to Lexus. Both provide extraordinary reliability. Maybe not the absolute best of the best available for a given purpose, but in a situation where you truly need them, they will be therr and they will perform. Interesting though about sound. The Lexus LFA uses a v10 engine (1LR-GUE) the size of a small block v8 with the weight of a v6, was codeveloped between Lexus and Yamaha. The Lexus LFA exhaust is actually tuned, as well as the interior sounds, by Yamaha. The Lexus LFA is widely regarded as one of the best, if not the best, sounding v10s ever built, if not the best sounding engine ever produced.

[@vladimirareizalondono1664]

1 Bach Stradivarius 42 2 Yamaha Xeno 882OR 3 Yamaha Xenno 882. That would be my ranking, yet the one that wins for me is 882OR because it is more versatile, you can get close to Bach’s sound quality, your rod is wide and I think that helps and apart from LeadPipes that allows you to play with color and with the answer of the horn. 882OR 🎉

[@musicofnote1]

Granted, I play 95% bass trombone (Yamaha 882g), but I played Bachs (50OG and 42OG, both from the 90's) for years first. Simply in terms of unity of tone color, the Bach is all over the place. Each note had it's own tone color, seemingly unrelated to the one before or after. This was my biggest problem when I played them - to get a tonally consistent phrase. This particular player, who I also admit, I don't know, but that's my problem, did the best in this respect with the smaller bell and wide slide (the third in the trio of horns). The overall sense to me was that that horn had the least air in the sound at any given pitch or dynamic. A little brighter than the other two, but not uncomfortably so. When I do play tenor, I do so on a Rath R400 with a Wedge 4G, that has a little darker sound and is not as punchy. I realise the price difference involved, but seriously, if I spent more time on tenor AND my playing result were similar to this film, I'd also tend to go for the smaller bell with the wide slide Yami.

[@richardbegel5423]

musicofnote1 Thanks for the thoughtful comment. It sounds like we are in agreement, although I now have sold those Yamahas and I use the instruments in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gZDJd5x7et2becU There is an Elkhart Conn 88h with some great quick slide facility and a beautiful sound, and a rare Larry Minnick bell and leadpipe on at 1955 conn 88h slide and valve section. The Minnick has the one-piece yellow bell and the thicker orchestral sound.

[@geovannivivas7736]

👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

[@CesarSatos]

Olá como faço para ganhar um trombone

[@kbrosfishing]

Should I purchase a Bach 42B, 42BO, or Yamaha Xeno 8820? And what is the difference of a Bach 42B and 42BO?

[@richardbegel5423]

I believe this viewer contacted me via email through my website, and here are the 2 responses I sent in the course of our contact: -------------------- Hi, Thanks for your questions. The Bach 42B has a Standard wrap for the valve tubing, like this: www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=YwVTRIpw&id=EB9137655F0EA5F24DF104FC6D9DD13989CA8466&thid=OIP.YwVTRIpw8vNGNLtwsDSrrAHaHa&q=bach+42b&simid=608012009879634073&selectedIndex=1&PC=APPL Then someone got the idea that less bends in the tubing would be better, so they invented the 42BO, with “open wrap” valve tubing like this: www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=IuW0yVG%2f&id=F415CAF1F901B6C8E7393E8A0204405E3380F0ED&thid=OIP.IuW0yVG_jST5bqicnCd5lwHaHa&q=bach+42b&simid=608021884011678903&selectedIndex=0&PC=APPL As a result the open wrap horns are taller, so more of it extends behind your head when in playing position. Do they sound different? Not too much; there are other features that make bigger differences, and different people will have different valid opinions about whether the wrap changes things. I think the crafting of the individual horns has a larger effect and if possible I would test them back to back. The same goes with your Yamaha vs. Bach question. It’s always better to test the actual horns before buying when possible. They can all play so differently, even those of the same make and model. You should keep in mind that the Xeno 882O is their imitation of a Conn 88H, and the Xeno 882OR is their imitation of the Bach 42BO. They are very different horns and for now I play a mixture of them, the slide of one and bell of the other. So if I had to choose between a Bach 42B or BO and a Xeno 882O without trying them that’s like apples to oranges. Bach has a heavier feel, beefy sound, worse intonation, and is harder to articulate. It’s a big horn, with a wide sound. The Yamaha has the narrow slide, quicker response, needs less air than Bach, has a more compact sound and is easier on the flexibility and intonation...it’s more Conn-like. It holds and plays like a smaller horn but still projects well. Between the Bach 42BO and the Bach-like Yamaha 882OR I would probably pick the Yamaha for the intonation, response, upper range and general ease. Best of luck with your choice! Rich ------------------------------------- HI, I'm sorry this reply comes so late! I hope you are happy with your decision if it is done. In an ideal world, you get to play on both instruments. When that isn't possible, it's hard for me to choose for you. But I'd say you have to think about what your goals are. Orchestral? Both horns are good. Smaller group stuff like rock band? The Xeno can play more like that. In my earlier email I wrote "Bach has a heavier feel, beefy sound, worse intonation, and is harder to articulate. It’s a big horn, with a wide sound. The Yamaha has the narrow slide, quicker response, needs less air than Bach, has a more compact sound and is easier on the flexibility and intonation...it’s more Conn-like. It holds and plays like a smaller horn but still projects well. " I think without us having personal contact and without knowing your specific goals and things you are trying to solve (why are you buying a horn? trying to improve a certain sound or technique? Just bumping up to the next level in size or quality?), I can't be of enough help. But you may email me again with the answers to these questions if it's not too late! Rich

[@Siebbazuin]

Laling Santiag

[@uga83joe]

Hello...my son has been playing since middle school. He in entering the 10th grade. I bought him a Cannonball Trombone with F attachment to start with. Cannonball is trying to get into the trombone line so I was able to purchase the bone for 1000 dollars. Intermediate model of course. It does have the wider slide compared to the 882or. I want to upgrade him to the Xeno line. Switching out the slides intrigues me but a complete slide is an additional 1600 dollars. If he had to choose one which one would suite him for the rest of his High School years? I know this is a very open ended question...Oh, he has made All State in his 8th and 9th grade years. So he is capable of playing very well. Thanks for your help.

[@richardbegel5423]

Hi There, If it were my son at this age, I personally would look to a used trombone for about $1500 along the lines of a Bach 42B (or 42BO), Conn 88H, any Xeno professional model (older kinds or the 20th Anniversary model which pretty much does what I have always done with these horns, switching the slide and bell type). New Xenos are inexpensive compared to other new brands, although I don't play them anymore because I prefer a different sound now. I would look to those or used instruments by Conn or Bach because over his first 5 years out of HS he will meet many players and try horns, and focus his preferences. If however, you want to think longer term and spend more now because he is playing so well, you can look to new and used Greenhoe, Shires, M&W, or Edwards trombones. You may get lucky with some of these in the used category by checking ebay, craigslist, and following facebook pages: trombone equipment, trombone marketplace, trombones and accessories, custom and vintage trombones of the world, and while you are at it, for learning instead of shopping check out trombone pedagogy and trombone-chat-dot-com, all on facebook. And I highly recommend doing this with guidance of a teacher. If you would like to send me a couple of ads that you find interesting from these places, you can send me them and I can take a look. I have a website www.richbegel.com and my email address is there. Ultimately down the road, the pros actually go to the factories and get an expensive horn custom fit to them.

[@uga83joe]

@@richardbegel5423 My son watched several of your videos. I knew he was going ask if I would purchase an OR slide for the O. Ha! He plays an open? bone with reverse tuning slide. He wants to stick with that and he is leaning towards to 882OR. But he did like the sound of the 882O with the OR slide much more than the 882OR. But likes the sound of the OR better than the O. Me...I am tone deaf so I can not tell the difference. I thought stand alone the O and OR sounded just fine. OR is a bit louder, to me. I gave him your websight info...hopefully he will contact you. But I want to thank you for responding to my rant. That was very kind of you.

[@richardbegel5423]

@@uga83joe Ha! There are plenty of things where I have only a passing knowledge so I can relate...and this one in particular is tough because you have different players, oral cavity shapes, mouthpieces, microphones and speakers for reproduction, and artistic tastes. Here is a little more info: The Xeno 882OR www.wwbw.com/search?typeAheadSuggestion=true&typeAheadRedirect=true&sB=r&fromRecentHistory=true&Ntt=xeno+882or (choose yellow or gold to read more) was designed with help from Larry Zalkind, imitating a Bach 42BO. Hence, it has the wide-set slide leading to the bigger sound. The 882O www.wwbw.com/Yamaha-YSL-882O-Xeno-Series-F-Attachment-Trombone-483576.wwbw was designed with Pete Sullivan and is modeled more after the Conn 88H, thus having the smaller set slide leading to the smaller, more supple sound but still orchestra-worthy. Neither horn exactly imitates their ancestors but they do come from those 2 older models, from back in the day when you only had those 2 choices...Bach or Conn. When it came to the Xenos, I liked the wide slide (style I grew up with) on the "smaller" conn style bell of the 882O, as in the video, and I could do it because I found one way under-priced and was able to own 2 horns. I think others also discovered that idea and liked it, and eventually the 20th Anniversary Xeno did something just like what I did when I made that switch. I swear it's the wide bach style slide on the conn style bell without having to buy 2 horns. See the video here kzbin.info/www/bejne/fYq3ZqFmmNd7jq8

[@uga83joe]

@@richardbegel5423 My boy decided on the 882OR. He did consider the Bach 42BO but he watched and listened to your video again and then decided on the OR. It was your video that helped him. So thanks again. You were a great help to him.

[@Oliverkor]

Any tips on a student used to a Bach 42 that is struggling on a Yamaha Xeno 8820 that he can't return

[@richardbegel5423]

Sorry to hear about this. The 882O (Sullivan/Conn style) is the smallest feeling, the most different from the Bach of all of them I'd say. Historically I'm a Bach guy and I have trouble getting used to the smallness. There is always buying and selling, although I think if you could get your hands on the slide of an 882OR you'd be surprisingly happier...ask DJ Kennedy, search the FB trombone sale pages, place WTB ads. The wider-set slide will receive air and articulate quite a bit more like you are used to.

[@Oliverkor]

Richard Begel Can I adjust to this instrument. I'm currently not in the best financial situation at the moment

[@richardbegel5423]

That's a fair point. Plus, I think that slide does not automatically come with removable pipes so having yours yanked for that purpose would cost something extra. I was talking with the bass trombonist of the Cincinnati Symphony recently about this very adjustment. Since he was coming from bass to the exact horn you have, his adjustment was from something even larger than a Bach tenor. He said he was thankful for having to do it. For having to learn to play with an extremely efficient embouchure, for having to learn to use less air (I think he said that though I should double check my lesson recording). I am going to suggest these exercises for you, and be sure your buzz follows your slide as you go: richbegel.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Lower-Register-Expansion-Glissandi.pdf and richbegel.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Upper-Register-Expansion-Glissandi.pdf The video demo of these can be found here richbegel.com/audio-video/#Teaching It's called "Teaching Video 2 Expansion Glissandi" and I believe it will help you acclimate to your horn, and find the sweet spot for it's more Conn-Style sound.

[@Oliverkor]

Richard Begel Thank You for your response, did your friend get comfortable with his new horn. If so, what did he do to get adjusted to the "Conn" sound.

[@richardbegel5423]

Hi. As I recall he had a student on the Xeno 882O and he liked the sound, so he did not have trouble getting used to it. He purchased one because Xenos are relatively (to other trombones) inexpensive and he was in a position to do so (established player, Cincinnati Symphony). He said the much smaller horn forced him to play with a more efficient embouchure. The player I was talking about is one of the top in the world though and has few technical obstacles in his playing. But I believe you can adjust also...hopefully the exercise I provided with prove useful for you.

[@codyrchen]

What trombone did you like overall

[@richardbegel5423]

Hi, I like my Yahama that's the bell from the 882O and the slide from the 882OR. In recent years I have tried a couple of different Edwards models that I like. I would never be able to choose for someone else though, with great brands out there like the old Conns and Bachs, Shires, Edwards, Rath, Thein, Courtois, M&W, Greenhoe, and more.

[@richardbegel5423]

I must say, I am now selling the Xenos! I came across a 1966 Conn Elkhart 88H and while it may not be the last horn I ever own (I am in a transition period right now), I can not resist the warm tone.

[@hudsonpedrotti7278]

The Bach definitely sounds the best!

[@chrismarbrey9678]

agreed

[@stevenholloway7794]

Hey Rich, how do you feel the Yamaha Xeno compares to Edwards?

[@richardbegel5423]

HI Steve, I don't have a recent comparison to Edwards, but I did recently play a Greenhoe Conn and a Shires. My feeling is that the Xenos do well and shouldn't be counted out just because they are priced lower. Especially if you experiment with leadpipes! I have heard the theory that the closer a part is to the mouth, the more it affects sound...so in order from the mouthpiece on down changes the horn a lot, and my experiments with leadpipes show that, in my opinion.

[@richardbegel5423]

HI again Steve. It so happens that over the summer 2018 I tried an EdwardsT396A PE1 leadpipe Rose brass slide tubes rose brass neckpipe rose brass valve tubing rose main tuning slide yellow valve tuning slide and I can't remember the handslide crook - I know it was different than the rose slide tubes, so it was yellow or maybe silver...I want to say yellow --- And a few years ago I tried a t350-HB that was a model Toby Oft is/was using --- I believe I liked both better than my Yammy, but especially the more recent one, the 396, although I can't say for sure until I try them all back to back. It had that ease and consistent sound, and I liked that config better than other Alessi models I had tried. I'm hoping for some huge influx of $ before the 2019 bone workshop!

[@richardbegel5423]

I must say, I am now selling the Xenos! I came across a 1966 Conn Elkhart 88H and while it may not be the last horn I ever own (I am in a transition period right now), I can not resist the warm tone.

[@raymondfallon7429]

@@richardbegel5423 Playing my grandson's Xeno doesn't suck compared to playing my Shires - I like the Shires more, but especially considering the half price (used Xeno to used Shires) it's not crazy to like the Xeno.

[@richardbegel5423]

@@raymondfallon7429 Definitely not...I'm not sure if I said something leading you to think that I think it's crazy to like the Xenos. If so, there was a misunderstanding. I used them for years. I am just switching now due to 2 great old Conns that came my way, and I'll make a video about that soon! Ir you are interested, I am selling a Xeno 882OR...It's on Ebay, I think until the night of 2/6/2019.

[@domenicobrancati94]

Bach