Trope Talk: Antiheroes

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Antiheroes! Are they heroes? Ehhhh, kinda? Okay, are they VILLAINS? Ehhhhh, not usually??
Why are these bastions of that Sweet Sweet Edginess so hard to pin down, and do we actually care all that much about how to define the? Evidently so, because I spent HOURS on these charts, and y'all are going to APPRECIATE THEM
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[@Babbleplay]

If your mom or dad's sister fights crime, that's an Auntiehero.

[@anondescriptbullet]

Get out

[@twit9129]

@@anondescriptbullet (2)

[@jameseddieson33]

You. I like you.

[@Babbleplay]

@@jameseddieson33 I like me, too. I'm also proud of my comment on one of the SCP videos about a living entity made of metal links, where I referred to him as a 'Chain Male'.

[@zackakai5173]

I'm sad to say this joke falls apart when you're from New England 🤣

[@troyjardine5850]

"Antiheroes are way cooler than normal heroes because they posses a special power the marketers desperately seek, edgyness!" - Terrible Writing Advice

[@jimmyjenkins1907]

i hadnt even got to the end n i could already hear it in his voice like bruh

[@rubenantoniogaxiolaaguilar9463]

Crossover when

[@raziyatheseeker]

@@rubenantoniogaxiolaaguilar9463 Crossover when indeed! JP and Red need to get in on this! :o

[@personnemay2692]

You have like 666 likes, so I can only ❤️ in the comments

[@HellRider_]

But where can we fit in the LOVE TRIANGLE?

[@PiplupPeanut]

Red having a math degree and not an English or creative writing one is the plot twist of the century

[@floydharper1216]

Everyone has a hobby

[@PiplupPeanut]

@@floydharper1216 oh of course, I just thought it was ironic, as you’d expect someone with as much literary knowledge as Red to be a humanities major or something. Nothing wrong with diverging from your degree on your life path though Plus hey, we don’t know what she does as her main non-KZbin job, she could be an accountant for all we know 💁‍♀️

[@floydharper1216]

Lol don't get me wrong I'm not criticizing and I know what you mean, it is kinda incongruous. But yeah I sort of figure the math degree is for her career and what you see here on KZbin is her passion project. She is extremely knowledgeable about philosophy and literature

[@Rabid_Nationalist]

True

[@sino_diogenes]

I think that highlights her intelligence. She is/seems to be pretty intelligent and knowledegable, which was impressive enough, but the fact that her education is in something completely unrelated to writing means that this whole channel is based off her learning about a hobby, which is more impressive.

[@skyhideaway]

That "quitting an addiction is seen as heroic" got me thinking Villain: God.. what have I been doing? I've been getting this all wrong! Sidekick: What do you mean, boss? Villain: This is all so destructive.. I'm hurting.... I need to stop this. Sidekick: You're gonna stop killing innocent civilians? Villain: What? God, no. What do you take me for? I'm quitting my smoking, it's really unhealthy for me. Killing people still boosts my mental health, ya know.

[@ourtube1128]

that's an amazing idea xD

[@KyleRayner12]

Hero: I feel like I should be supportive, but on the other hand, it'd save a lot of lives in the long run if you smoked more.

[@Mario_Angel_Medina]

I think it was Roger Eberts who pointed out that in gritty crime stories, the detective is always _trying_ to quit smoking. That's why one of my favourite small details in film history is that Michael Douglas's character in _Basic Insctint_ casually accepts Sharon Stone's cigarrette while they're in bed. Trying to quit smoking was part of his characterization as someone struggling with dark impulses and self-destructive tendencies, so when Stone's character makes him smoke again it simbolizes that the self-destruction won over

[@hudsondunn8385]

Literally Hitler.

[@kempolar9768]

Ok yeah I need some kind of spinoff series turned into a slice-of-life where we see the villain continue to be a horrible person but also learns to increase the pay to his employees and how to home cook a healthy meal.

[@TsulaAngenati2292]

“Greeks didn’t rely on morals, just strength” No wonder they like zeus

[@mediabaron2416]

By today's standards, Zeus is a seriously entitled deadbeat dad. He's a bad guy from a TV drama. And not one of the regular ones either. He's in it for like one episode to maybe give another character some tragic backstory then he's never mentioned again.

[@NintendoSegaGuys]

Couldn't go five minutes without turning into a bull and banging mortals.

[@sineadthomas2024]

Media Baron Even in Greek times Zeus was seen as bad, but if you said it out loud you’d be struck by lightning and instantly killed

[@TsulaAngenati2292]

Sinead Thomas ah, like a Whiny baby with the strongest taser in the world

[@Callordin]

The might makes right mentality explains a lot about why imperial Europeans and British isles folk included Greek humanities in their vaunted classical education. 😒

[@arklaw8306]

"If you're writing a character, write the character. Maybe they'll be seen as an anti-hero, maybe they won't." This Trope Talk really helped. It pulled a mental weight off my shoulder.

[@dnm3732]

if it pulled a mental weight then it did help in a way

[@filipvadas7602]

Personally, if your characters leave the audience having different viewpoints on them(who's right or wrong, are they a hero or villain etc) and just generally making the audience THINK , then you've succedeed as a writer. Of course thats going under the assumption that that's what you want for your story, there's nothing wrong with having objectively good or evil characters

[@PyraXadon]

Yeah after a while, you realize to just do whatever you want to do. Sure things may end up in some neat little boxes, but so long as you write the character that YOU WANT to write, that's all that really matters. If you ask me, saying you want an 'antihero' or you want a 'paragon' is meaningless since labels like those restrict creativity and don't give you the freedom to create the kinds of complexities that maybe you want.

[@majora748]

i read this JUST as she said it XD

[@aleahlrb]

I can relate. I've been putting off continuing writing the adventures of an OC of mine because she's supposed to be this questionable character, but I feel like I've been making her make less sense.

[@eddiefirstenberg1000]

i kinda want a villain who's plans always end up backfiring making him seem more like a good guy. steal candy from a baby? candy's poisoned, baby saved. steal baby? abusive parents, baby saved. push lady off a building? the push she needed to unlock powers of flight, she's now your sidekick and the baby's adopted mother while you're the adoptive father with the adoptive parents sharing a purely platonic/aesthetic relationship

[@miaashford9625]

Doofenshmirtz, maybe?

[@mitkitty]

There's a ProZD vine about this

[@haewonchoi2752]

@@mitkitty “you fixed my shoulder”

[@aweirdoandaphone4135]

@@haewonchoi2752 *GOD DAMNIT-*

[@thehistoryandbooknerd8979]

Yes PLEASE

[@icetiger-4760]

"What is an anti-hero?" to quote red from the Kaiju trope talk "Ehhhhehhhh you know it when you see it."

[@AnimeboyIanpower]

She also said it in the Magic trope talk.

[@cherrycola542]

Do I?

[@thadblank3615]

maybe YOU are an antihero

[@garbagecan7718]

To quote the daredevil show, "Sometimes it's easy to tell what something is, black and white, no in-between. Sometimes the grey area is larger then anything else, all of it blurred. And sometimes it's like p😉rn, you just know it when you see it"

[@Ismael-kc3ry]

Nah, the amount of people I’ve seen call Batman or Eren Jeager anti heroes is way too much. Grumpy heroes and sympathetic mass murderers are not anti heroes

[@carolinemckee7009]

"Achilles, with a wife he likes alright, and a boyfriend he likes even more"

[@Callordin]

Dudebros would be a lot less angry all the time if they finished their transformation into classical Greek lifestyles and just lived off the grid, supported each other's fitness regime, and fell in love with each other and wrote love poems and homoerotic plays about each other. Ok so admittedly we'd be annoyed all over again when a big, muscled, nude army of hot gay warriors tried to take over a Walmart BUT STILL

[@federicoarmada8775]

boy friend*

[@scoopitywoop5665]

Achilles has big Joseph Joestar energy

[@kaiz1845]

​@@WrathofFenrir99 ...idk about Spartans, but Greeks weren't just gay lol. Half the time their gods are getting it on with literal animals and then giving birth to literal animals too. I'm honestly not exactly sure if their sexuality is a good standard...

[@alanepithet2931]

@@kaiz1845 Greek sexuality could be described as 'Yes, except lesbians.'

[@someone16234]

Actually, antiheroes are defined by falling into the category of “pulls into mcdonalds drive through as children cheer, orders one black coffee and leaves”

[@fduranthesee]

i remember the coffee thing, i think a comedian said that

[@Nulthazor]

PrimalTheEmperor (primal9000) pretty sure it was John Mulaney

[@katherinealexander8696]

John mulaney’s dad is my hero lol

[@lowbudgetadvice95]

Love that! LOL! John Mulaney all the way.

[@peggedyourdad9560]

That’s just chaotic evil in my opinion lol. Nice Mulaney regrants btw👌

[@michaelwellen2866]

Laughed out loud at "A wife he likes alright and a boyfriend he likes way more". Yep, that pretty much describes Achilles.

[@blakeetter280]

“Tries to cuss even in kids cartoons” ok now I want to see a cartoon where wolverine notices the universe itself is trying to censor him and he spends the entire episode just trying to get around it in whatever way possible, but no matter what he tries something always stops the swear from appearing on screen or whatever. Just spends the first five minutes confused and then the rest angry

[@Child_of_the_Void]

"frick!" "Why are you saying that instead of the actual word?" "I can't say that, it's a kid's show!" "You have been saying that for the last 5 minutes" "Well, that wasn't on screen"

[@dr.elementalist]

@@Child_of_the_Void (Something startles him) Holy sh- (A loud as hell train appears out of nowhere and goes away again) ... Wait a god (random car honk) minute

[@RJ-qh3iy]

​@@dr.elementalist gjch fhchjyk

[@coolgreenbug7551]

Why the fruit does all this funky stuff happens to me

[@rhokesh4391]

So kinda like Oxhorn's "Inventing Swearwords" videos from way back when WoW first started censoring stuff? AT least, that's where my mind immediately went ^^°

[@vex3488]

“Don’t write a hero, don’t write a villain, write a person.”

[@patrickmcguire7896]

Good advice Now if only marvel will listen to you

[@omega1397]

Funnily enough thats why Garth Ennis was drawn to the Punisher in the first place. And probably wrote the greatest version of him too for that reason lol

[@SoulcastProductions]

unless you want to have fun. and I mean a lot of fun

[@tormentbrogg8761]

But what is ur black ?????????????(no racial)

[@Percival917]

@@patrickmcguire7896 TTTTTTHHHHHHIIIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

[@craxnor]

Greeks: “Archery is the weenie baby choice for those afraid to get stabbed” India: “Bitch I did not just here that”

[@lukurd5923]

Meanwhile in Mongolia...

[@oxtheunlikelycontemplator2682]

Scowls in English and Welsh Longbowmen.

[@Attaxalotl]

@@oxtheunlikelycontemplator2682 Who are laughing in *snipin's a good job, m8*

[@maciejdutka3489]

actually while in Iliad archery is explicitly mocked, in the final scenes of Odyssey it is portrayed as badass, which is one of many arguments in an academic debate for those two to be composed (achieve agreed upon more or less canonical form) in different period and by different authors due to discernable shift in the paradigm of a hero. Counter argument being that, suitors killed with arrows where thus disposed of in a kinda degrading way.

[@redhollow9079]

You mean native Americans?

[@borealwood]

My theatre teacher has a pretty interesting definition for an anti-hero: a character whose ends are noble enough for the audience to justify the means. The converse, of course, is that an antivillain is when the audience can no longer justify the means and so they cross the very fine line to villainy.

[@dj_koen1265]

I like that definition of antihero But an anti villain to me is a villain who does good while intending evil Those are extremely rare though

[@necrozmaIV]

That, that is an interesting 10:36 definition of something I don’t normally enjoy, and it makes sense, that teacher needs a massive raise for increasing the power of The Art Of Writing.

[@stefanradebach2889]

Those definitions sound bizarre? An anti-hero is someone who does the right thing and fights for justice but has traits that doesn't look all to pleasant. Frank Castle is what comes to my mind. An anti-villain is someone who while an enemy and a threat to the good guys they have noble qualities to them that can make them sympathetic like honor, caring about their friends and fighting for a well-meaning goal.

[@mattiOTX]

​@@dj_koen1265that's called insanity.

[@DragonbIaze052]

@@dj_koen1265 Iron Man is an antivillain. He never does anything that isn't in direct service to himself or the people he claims (Happy, Pepper, Rhodey, Peter, and very briefly Phil). Any heroism he engages in is incidental to either protecting or avenging those people, or to absolve himself of guilt. He is willing to murder somebody he knows is innocent in order to get his revenge as well. The fact that he shot Falcon because Vision permanently disabled Warmachine is by itself all the evidence you need to prove he's not a hero.

[@BalorBallora]

i think deadpool wrapped up the trope pretty well. "I'm just a bad guy who gets paid to fuck up worse guys"

[@sonicsucks20]

Sooooooooo edgy!

[@alexanderdixson9956]

He started off as a bad guy, but later on became a good guy, especially after hanging out with cable, Wolverine, domino, and the x-force, and they molded him into a real hero

[@llewelynshingler2173]

We have space to ponder if his actions line up with this. And realise that they normally do.

[@melchiordouzet3587]

Nobody: Someone writing an antihero: "Be Gay, Do Crime."

[@gundamfan7541]

So pied piper from the flash???

[@benjamincuevas9627]

The Riddler?

[@gundamfan7541]

@@benjamincuevas9627 wait riddler was gay???

[@benjamincuevas9627]

@@gundamfan7541 it's a joke but you can totally imagine him as gay.

[@kanyewestandjayz]

Omar from the wire

[@aaronstephen3058]

Antiheroes: Everyone’s first self-insert.

[@Hookening]

If that ain't the truth.

[@carlosroo5460]

So Dante is an Anti-hero? Cool

[@Hookening]

@@carlosroo5460 In a sense yes but he got character growth eventually.

[@Mini_Squatch]

Mine wasn't. My first self-insert was still cringy as all hell, but wasn't an anti-hero.

[@YataTheFifteenth]

@@Mini_Squatch i feel ya' yo. I feel ya'.

[@frankensteinmonster1931]

“People who think Batman’s job would be a lot easier if he just used guns and that it doesn’t make sense that Superman doesn’t use his godlike power to just murder all his enemies. I find these people irritating....” THANK YOU!! I agree completely

[@floydharper1216]

You would

[@hardcaselj111]

I used to not understand why they didn't do that, but now I do

[@RomanvonUngernSternbergnrmfvus]

Let me guess you think it’s annoying when people blame Batman for the actions of the joker . . . Even though everyone and their mother should’ve thrown that clown in a trash compactor after escape/mass murder number 2

[@tompatterson1548]

@@hardcaselj111 Even if they did, in comics, baddies, and anyone in general come to think of it, don't tend to stay dead. It's only Uncle Ben and Batman's parents that stay dead.

[@pillarmenn1936]

@@tompatterson1548 so it's less the problem of the characters and more the retards that write the stories who seem to think dead just means sleeping

[@leonguyen2398]

Personally I think Jason Todd is the prime example of the antihero. Questionable methods, morally grey, self-destructive, mentally and emotionally damaged, and does the wrong things for the right reasons. But to his core, he still tries to be a hero and be a good person. He does kill, but only those who deserve to die. He's the cautionary tale of when being a hero and having heroic ideals fail or go wrong.

[@tunderstorm2769]

Thats not a hero tho, the red cap or how ever hes called after coming back is

[@aros0018]

But then you get into the aspects of Jason's character than potentially muddle the waters a little bit, namely that despite his insistence that Joker is a monster the world would be better off without even he still didn't kill him. Not because he thought it'd be wrong to do so but because he wanted Batman to do it. Instead of doing what he claimed absolutely had to be done and letting the aftermath prove his point for Jason instead demanded that Batman change and do the one thing he's sworn to never do, most likely either because Jason wants Batman to finally avenge him or because he wants Batman to sink down to his level and be unable to judge him. Whether he can be considered an antihero in all this is then an interesting thing to debate.

[@annadidathingy2832]

@@aros0018 the point of that whole setup with Joker was to test whether he meant to his dad as much as his dad did to him(and you betcha if Joker killed Bruce, Jason would've avenged him the first chance he had). After all, there was also an option for Bruce not to kill anyone and just watch his kiddo avenge himself. And the answer to the question whether he meant to his dad more than his principles was a resounding no, when Bruce chose to save the clown's life. He didn't attempt putting Bruce into similar situation ever since and still believes the clown deserves to die and will shoot if he gets the opportunity. That whole confrontation was not so much about different approaches to crime-fighting, and more just Jason working through his daddy issues.

[@Neutral_Tired]

When Jason first became the Red Hood he wasn't Batman with guns, he was a crime boss who wanted to run Gotham's entire criminal underbelly so that he could decide who got hurt and who didn't. When he first appears, he declares himself in charge of all of Gotham's major drug cartels, takes a hefty cut of their profits and forbids them from selling to kids. He wholeheartedly believed crime couldn't be eradicated so he wanted to control it. Interestingly, Marvel's Kingpin has claimed to have similar motives several times

[@darkothemapper1826]

ALL 4 comments here just confirm his anti-hero status lmao!!!!!!!!! Yes, Jason could have killed the Joker himself, but we know he cant because writers will always keep most iconic villain alive. But whole thing about Jason wanting Batman to kill the Joker was set up in Red Hood Lost Days comic and perfectly done both in the comic and the animated movie in 2 diffrent ways. In comic, all Jason wanted was Bruce to kill the Joker, not Batman because we know Bruce thinks he is the mask while batman is his main personality, so Jason wanted for his only father figure to show that his time as robin and ward of Bruce Wayne wasnt for nothing, that his father would choose his son over his moral code (out all of the robins, Jason was his only true son, even though damian is his blood, he didnt even come close to a son as jason did). But what happened... Batman out of panic, forgets all other possible ways to win in this situation, throws the batarang into his "son" neck, directly in the spot which would kill Jason and saving his murder once again over the person he fucking has dignity to call a son. Which shows that in the past Batman only kills when he sees no other option, thats why he killed Darksied, but here... shows how weak whole "no kill" rule is, by nearly kiling his son. Thats why in Comic Jason POV is more right, but of course writers fucked him over comming years so he ended up as a villain, and not as a true victim. But in the animated movie, its all grey area. You could easily side with Jason again, but here we get one of best written Batman (even though his Bruce "mask" is again same as in comic). Here Batman is more right and justiceable, because he doesnt throw a battarng or shoots the joker, but simply turns around and lets Jason let his guard down (which is so very manipulating as fuck, turning his back to his son who just wanted his father to avange him, which batman didnt acknowledge) and make Jason shoot at him and bataman throwing battarng into the barrel of the gun. No matter how Jason was written since then, this scene still stands as perfect represitation of having An hero, a Villain and an Anti-hero all in one room, in which everyone can draw their conclusion and choose a side (obviously, im on Jason side because in this video it was said evil cant be erased, but it can be minimised, and Jason knew that so he decided to control it, which Batman failed since the begining and who cant relate and sympitise a kid who ever wanted was his parents love and affection, who got screw by the Robin mantle and his anger issues which kept him alive on the streets until batman found him for him being voted to be killed by fans just because writer wrote him like that because the writer didnt like idea of child side kick so he decide to kill him off)

[@Arshva]

"Anakin's core traits never change, only the context" wooooooow, that's so true! Why didn't I see this?

[@RoyalFusilier]

This is part of why critics say Anakin starts his first scene of Attack of the Clones as a villain, which is kind of tough given the entire story is his Grand And Tragic Fall... it's like a film called 'ball falls of table' where it starts with it on the ground. But looking at it across the whole series imparts more meaning.

[@simonegreco1958]

Fusilier I’ve never heard of this AotC criticism

[@jankom.7783]

Both Anakin and Palpatine are antiheroes. Only Palpatine goes to greater lengths to bring peace and order to galaxy, so he is seen only as a villain from Jedi/rebels point of view. He starts as a senator in corrupt disfunctional republic with slaves and class systems, and he turns it into confederacy of independent systems, where law works for everybody. Empire did destroyed a planet, but we don't know the scope of conflict, so it might be perfectly justified.

[@simonegreco1958]

Janko M. Lmao no Palpatine is 100% a villain of unmitigated evil

[@jankom.7783]

@@simonegreco1958 He is villain, because "heroes" said he is. And we see everything from their point of view. All of them lie almost constantly (most of what Obi says in OT are lies). They even have discussions about lying and keeping secrets (not telling senate about Sith). They don't care about slavery (no slavery in OT), they enforce will of senate with force, but not actual law (Naboo and probably all separatist systems were left without support of republic). In OT, local systems enforce law, and empire keeps them from fighting each other. In prequels, Jedi murder whoever they want, completely unchecked. On Tatooine, people get killed, and taken, and no authority cares. In OT, law enforcement is everywhere. And they are interested in actual murderers, smugglers (Han), and terrorists (Leia), and not random members of religion (Yoda, Obi Wan), until they commit actual crime. To be fair, Darth Vader is a loose cannon, and he murders people, because he feels like it, but other things we see that empire does, might be justified. Difference between Jedi and Sith is, that Jedi demand absolute obedience, and don't know, how to solve problems, other than with lightsaber. Sith give you a choice to decide. And they are interested in solving problems. There is a rule of law and order in empire, unlike in republic. And Anakin was always keen to solve a problems (his mother, Padme's assassin), while Jedi were telling him to do nothing (especially Yoda).

[@smilemore7431]

What I thought I’d learn: what an antihero is. What I actually learned: CHARTS ARE FUN DUDES!!! Edit: this is my most liked comment, and it’s about charts. This is the power of charts my friends.

[@pablorepetto2759]

HELL YEAH!

[@JamesWilson-vr3ql]

Red's getting a lot of use out of that math degree today.

[@60sSam]

Are we saying that according to the charts...charts are fun?

[@djbananapeel3127]

I learned that there are even more dimensions to the political compass than I ever imagined.

[@spritemon98]

Exactly!!

[@appouhal]

Sam & Dean Winchester from CW’s Supernatural would probably count as anti-heroes (especially Dean) due to the fact that in addition to saving people, they also have questionable morals & ethics: (committing credit card fraud, impersonating authority figures, entering sealed crime scenes, committing theft, etc.)

[@joaofarias9986]

Thats not not being a hero, that's just being chaotic

[@FreshZCORD]

@@joaofarias9986 chaotic good, but Sam and dean often are antiheroes

[@joaofarias9986]

@@FreshZCORD They act too selfleslly too many time for not being heroes

[@user-ok8kr3hw6g]

ок

[@SweetOdinsRavens]

@@joaofarias9986 I disagree. The vast majority of their actions, including the reason they even took up hunting to begin with, are all selfishly motivated, even getting to the point where they bring on the apocalypse for the 100billionth time because they refuse to sacrifice the other or let them die.

[@VitaEmerald324]

I LOVE the usage of the image of Batman and Raven because of its involvement in the tumblr post that basically goes: "can you see this Batman consoling a child? If yes then he's in-character; if not, he's a shitty Punisher knock-off."

[@Excelsior1937]

That quote comes from Red

[@randomusernameCallin]

There are stories where he has lollipops in his belt.

[@matityaloran9157]

That’s an OSP reference

[@aukefif7329]

"I'm rude, self-destructive, traumatized and miserable. Also bisexual." I feel seen!

[@hellball5]

literally me, lol.

[@Wolfsification]

It was suppose to represent Constantine. Very good show, if you wanna watch the only season.

[@blackvial]

@@Wolfsification wasn't even a full season

[@rossbarone298]

“90’s antiheroes” do you mean: shadow the hedgehog

[@SeanStrife]

Ehhh... potato, pa-dildo.

[@justbny9278]

A character from the 2000s HUH

[@fernandoii8000]

I love that guy

[@SeanStrife]

@@justbny9278 He still exhibits all of the traits that 90's antiheroes exhibited at their peak; he just did it long after it went out of style.

[@Sonic62920]

"Damn" - Shadow the Hedgehog

[@gamithemighty5932]

"i'm not your hero. kid, I just ain't about to watch a kid die." "not if there's something i can do about it...." Now run along home kid, I'm sure your parents are looking for you. " looks at his tracking device* "and I still have work to do." runs off to pursue the enemy he let escape.*

[@esobelisk3110]

where’s that from again?

[@gamithemighty5932]

@@esobelisk3110 I kind of was just giving a made up example, but you could relate it to soldier 76 if you wanted to?

[@esobelisk3110]

@@gamithemighty5932 that’s cool :) I just felt like I recognised the dialogue from somewhere

[@JoaoPedroPT696]

@@gamithemighty5932 Jack Morrison is 100% a hero. He consciously decided to save the kids' life in his cinematic even if he says that the mission is all that matters. He is the definition of a vigilante.

[@litrpg101]

I think Artemis Fowl pulled a reverse Anakin. He went from villian to anti-hero to plain hero...

[@pumpkin2986]

What I expected: Antiheroes What I got: Social studies and math XD

[@Yora21]

Wellcome to peak nerdity.

[@pirateking56128]

Trope Talk: Antiheroes Red: "This video doesn't exist."

[@richmcgee434]

For twenty minutes, no less. :)

[@xXevilsmilesXx]

billy butcher

[@tillerintoxicated6917]

Anyone here with an imagination has talked about something that doesn't exist at some point in thier life

[@stanleyteriaca2184]

I have an Troup Talk idea. Hairstyle Shortcuts. Using hairstyles as a shortcut for how a character "should be". Sausage curls on a damsel in distress, bun for a smart librarian, etc.

[@specterghost9385]

That would be really cool! Other design shortcuts could also be fun like red and black being evil colors or what you dress your character in defining what they are.

[@stanleyteriaca2184]

@@specterghost9385 True.

[@Brivalia]

Side tail for “I’m gonna die in 10 minutes”

[@Hollieanaaa]

AKA Blonde hair = Highschool bully Brunette= "not like other girls"

[@stanleyteriaca2184]

@@Brivalia Side tail/plate = I'm the mother type. Also...yes they are going to kill me unless your Kasumi Tendo.

[@BowandSvent]

The way I take it is this: Don't write a hero or a villain. Write a person, and let their actions speak their role. As with the Anakin Skywalker example, if a person is written well enough they can be the Hero, Villain, and Antihero all in the same lifetime without really changing anything but the situation they are in. The best characters stay true to their characterization.

[@STROBEBLOK]

Red: “There’s actually one character who perfectly illustrates how difficult it is to pin down specific qualities as heroic or unheroic...” *sees Obi-Wan Kenobi* Me: *Stares in Confusion* Red: “...and that character is none other than Anakin Skywalker” Me: I’ve been bamboozled, a surprise for sure, but a welcome one

[@my4818]

Same here

[@nickmalachai2227]

Yeah, I thought it was going to be Satine, the woman Obi Wan was talking to, who fits... Surprisingly well as a Mandalorian Antihero?

[@NightWing1800]

Obi-wan is the quintessential anti-hero. He embodies a trait typically not seen as heroic, being a master troll. He has a bad attitude and doesn't uphold a moral code, the jedi code being "there is no emotion, there is peace. " and "There is no passion, there is serenity", but Obi-wan's a pretty sarcastic guy who points out the general bullshit people are trying to pull, and that's pretty edgy for a jedi. He's also a Guardian, which is the most aggressive and violent role a jedi can take. He's also very self destructive. As a mentor he told Anikan "don't try it", but when put in a similar but worse situation he himself tried it, knowing the downsides. He tics *all* the boxes.

[@autisonm]

*Me: _visible confusion_

[@37robinb]

@@autisonm Red has the high ground.

[@laurenvelentzas5044]

So antiheroes are the magenta of characters; not a “real” archetype with a specific niche on the spectrum, but what our brains use to fill the in between

[@glanni]

I like this idea!

[@blindbeholder9713]

That's not what magenta is but okay.

[@glanni]

@@blindbeholder9713 it literally is what magenta is. You can easily watch some color science videos here on YT.

[@blindbeholder9713]

@@glanni I have, and have also been taught since before this website existed. Magenta is as much a part of the spectrum as any other color. It's one of the secondary colors actually. The closest edge of the spectrum to it is tertiary color Violet, which is higher energy and lower wavelength than Magenta, and Violet is definitely on the spectrum. The easy thing to remember here is that if it isn't on the spectrum, it isn't visible to human eyes.

[@rickstevens1167]

Genius

[@jaydenliberty9536]

I would say Punisher’s “antihero” status is dependent ENTIRELY on things that don’t involve him. After all, Stan Lee’s very own definition of heroism is “people who do good things simply because they can or they must” Something unrelated to Punisher’s vengeance or motive happens, let’s say Option A is he knows the villain has info on the people that killed his family, and option B is that the city he’s currently in is about to be destroyed The Punisher, if written as someone who helps the heroes, interrogated the bad guy (kills him or not doesn’t matter here), and does what he can as an outsider to save the innocent lives in the city, most likely so that people don’t suffer like he did (bonus points, America at war time and it’s a massive city so he knows entire platoons would come home to dead families) is *without question* an anti-hero If The Punisher blindly pursues killing the villain and fighting the heroes trying to have him taken into custody instead, or just leaves the city because he has better things to do than save it, or maybe even tries to kill one of the heroes for getting in his way? That Punisher is, *without question* a villain protagonist So, writers…what would your Punisher do?

[@RomanvonUngernSternbergnrmfvus]

I’ve read most of the punisher stories and I can safely say option b rarely if ever happens the entire point is that the punisher kills those need punishing. Then again he and to a lesser extent Deadpool are the red headed step children of the marvel universe.

[@danysora]

I've rarely seen portrayal B, and its often in the copycats. Hell, even Marvel made Captain America beat the shit out of Punisher for doing that once in Civil War. I don't get the hate, it reminds me of the stories when villains go "oh you're just as evil as me. You see, I've done THE WORST and my men were rapists and tortured tons of innocents to death but you shooting us is just as evil", which I find extremely dumb. I really don't get the hate for Punisher when written well and the kind of people that are harsh on him are ideallistic to the point of sillyness.

[@Misanthropolis]

@@danysora Agreed, the Punisher is giving a permanent solution to evil people doing evil things - a barrage of bullets. I swear, people are so soft these days with that stupid Batman mentality that if you kill a killer, the number of killers remains the same. Like oooo, aren't you a real thinker! Dumb pseudo-philosophy. If you kill a killer, the number of killers is -1 because you killed a killer and you don't plan on killing anyone innocent, so you're not a killer, nor are you evil and nor should you get punished for it. Human rights should not apply to cold-hearted villains. Why do you think the Joker and Bane got away with as much as they did in the Dark Knight movies? The movies spell it out for you - laws and human rights and extremely unhinged and evil villains don't mix well.

[@zenzenulous2243]

@@Misanthropolis tbh it’s people being way too used to comics or really PG related media who don’t get that….uh, you kind of need to kill really terrible villains to actually get rid of them. Punisher killing really reprehensible people isn’t that morally wrong at all. Neither is Batman killing the joker, as another example. People really don’t get how morality should actually work in continuities where people can straight up come back to life

[@Misanthropolis]

@@zenzenulous2243 Exactly! Like I said, the only reason Bane and Joker got away with so much is because they could easily get out of jail/asylum at any time.

[@fntthesmth423]

Being able to describe The Punisher as a Mary Sue is a delight

[@Zeb0101]

Well any character can became a Mary sue and any Mary sue can became a proper character, all depends from the writer and the ability that holds and comic books have too way many different writers, that's why comic book characters have plenty of good stories as well that plenty that are just power fantasies

[@crypticangel7056]

Too late. Everyone under the sun has overused that term.

[@Zeb0101]

@@crypticangel7056 like everything, if we put in the work to don't use burned terms by people we wouldn't saying a sh*t for a good measure

[@crypticangel7056]

@@Zeb0101 I did not understand a word of that.

[@Zeb0101]

@@crypticangel7056 being fair I wrote with little to no decor, I meant: if we tried to avoid overused words we may won't be able to talk at all

[@ZanraiKid]

“I’m rude, self-destructive, traumatized, and miserable. Also, bisexual.” Next time Red, just @ me circa 2017.

[@Derpy241107]

The miserable part comes from the fact that everyone is super attractive, but he’s too insecure to ask anyone out.

[@cybersearcher1041]

Vax’ildan? Who let you have a phone?

[@Bacchasnail]

Just @ me right now tbh

[@Whosaskin]

Same but also Mexican

[@benjamincuevas9627]

You're a Greek hero!

[@teagannam]

The antihero trope: confusing, sometimes dark, misunderstood, controversial.... THE *ANTI-TROPE*

[@PhyreI3ird]

If the Anti-trope gets an avatar like other tropes, I think it needs a pope hat

[@floricel_112]

The anti trope equation

[@zetjet9901]

*wouldn’t that make it a trope?*

[@shukilevyandbrookesheildsl2638]

So, after watching this, I've come to realize that Lancelot du Lac is in fact an anti hero.

[@dj_koen1265]

I think the interesting thing is that he only later became an antihero When cultural values shifted

[@matityaloran9157]

As T.H. White wrote him, definitely. He calls himself Le Chevalier Mal Fet for a reason.

[@Ryn-dq2yr]

The trope talk were Red walks around her self for 17 minutes, regrets her life choices then calls it a day. I love it.

[@soapthesoap]

"A wife he likes alright and a boyfriend he likes way more" this line is way too funny to me

[@Maninawig]

Ironically, because Ancient Greece did not put such an emphasis on them being bi or gay, this line is one that always catches me off guard. It isn't such a minor character trait to their characters that I believe it might be how it passed under the Karen radars for all these years, while The Punisher ruffled their feathers into creating another subcategory of hero.

[@incanusolorin2607]

And a sex slave he liked even more lol

[@arseniykyrilkin33]

@@Maninawig i would like to add that ancient greek tradition of male relationships cannot be seen as related to modern fa(bb)otry, as it was either between strong, masculine men, or said men with underage femine boys, proxies for women. The implied narrative of the video is disturbing, but it can be forgiven, since author is a woman, her kin is more likely to fall victim to lies of equality.

[@Maninawig]

@@arseniykyrilkin33 she also studied the myths and histories behind them.

[@ellie8272]

@@arseniykyrilkin33 Uhh what the fuck?

[@-nav-398]

4:46 Red using her math degree to explain Anti-Heros Red's math degree: "Well hell, it's about damn time."

[@TerLoki]

I'm more surprised (and I mean no disrespect with this) that Red has a MATH degree. Totally not the field I would've pegged her for.

[@Ba_Dashi]

Wait... Was Tychus Findlay an antihero?!

[@profharveyherrera]

@TerLoki I know what you mean, I thought she had a degree in literature or something related to art

[@Aliexster]

This here is the single greatest graph chart ever constructed by man...

[@benjaminthibieroz4155]

@@profharveyherrera Yeah, i thought the same thing. Yet i know a writer with an engineer degree :)

[@rhondahoward8025]

"Anakin's core traits never change. Only the context he finds himself in." And that describes Eren Yeager to a T as well. The reason why he's so scary is that he went through the same transformation from hero to villain without actually changing at all.

[@DragonbIaze052]

Eren was never a hero. He was always bloodthirsty and driven by revenge and ego, it's just that the framing of the story masked most of that by having his goals align with saving humanity from an existential threat.

[@VladyO]

I wouldn't really place Punisher and Light Yagami in the same category. One knows they're a bad person and aims to spend the rest of their life killing worse people. The other one is a maniac with a god complex who actually has an end goal of ruling the world. I guess Frank is easier to root for because his slippery slope mostly ends at horrible people in his immediate vicinity and nowhere else--there's no real end goal of exterminating every criminal on Earth, either. Light kills and screws over anyone who opposes him, and even those that help him, to protect his identity and further his pipe dream of becoming a god--killing criminals was just an excuse to tell himself he's a hero.

[@BenLafarge]

Except they do. They are the exact same character, just at different points of the same character arc. Light Yagami doesn't start at "me is god" (in fact he first finds being compared to an angel to be funny). He just thinks the world is shitty because shitty people aren't dealt with as they should. 100% Punisher. And that he knows how it should be done and everyone disagreeing is wrong. Punisher again. Then he gets the mean to act upon those ideals and start killing criminals by the thousands. Murdering people or using drugs? It's the same. If you do crime you're evil. Unless your target is evil, then it's okay. Anyway limits don't apply to him, because he's always right. Just like Frank. And of course when people try to oppose him he starts killing them, because they're wrong and he's right, if he's stopped he won't be able to do what should be done, and he shouldn't have any limits because he's right. Then he recruits people and uses the followers he has gathered to gain personal power and make himself a defacto dictator, because he's the only one right so of course he's the only one that can decide what's good for everyone. By then of course he'll think himself a god. After all he is always right and everyone has to follow him. A last step Frank won't reach. Because he is a massive Gary Stu, and the plot will bend in any possible way to make sure he IS always right and none of his actions ever go wrong or out of hand. People with different opinions ? They're wrong. Or evil. Or they'll have a change of heart. Or will conveniently stop from doing anything too drastic to stop him before we have to see what an unfettered, self-righteous, armed man is bound to do in that situation. What if he makes errors and punishes an innocent ? Nope. He's always right. Because instinct or something. Won't his ultra violent vigilantism in populated locations result in collaterals ? Nah, only evil people have collateral victims. Frank can discharge a shootgun in a crowded hospital multiple times and he won't hurt anyone because sniper I guess (like, seriously?). Won't that mindset push him to oppose any system he founds too laxist, while recruiting other violent people to fuel his crusade? None of that. All other options short of murdering people who do crime will always be shown to be corrupt ways for evil ones to escape true justice. And any "pro Punisher" will exist only to make Frank look cooler, in order to give the writers their plausible deniability when IRL cops start gluing Frank's logo on their cars. The Punisher is easier to root for because he has the writers on his side. While Yagami, even with his magic notebook and absurdly precise deductions, is a more realistic portrayal; with writers who are a lot more honest.

[@chrissmith9167]

@@BenLafarge franks not a Gary stu. That’s just the writers problem.

[@General_Weebus]

​@BenLafarge dawg Light saw the slippery slope and ran at it with a sled. He proclaimed he would be god of his new world before the end of the first episode. Punisher is only in the same category when poorly written. When properly written he has the same motivation as other heroes. To protect innocent people and prevent others from having tonendure the kind of tragedy he did. He just disagrees with heroes over how best to protect people. And when serial mass murderers keep escaping to kill even more people he's not entirely wrong. He doesn't kill people just for getting in his way, he actively avoids killing people that he doesn't know to be guilty.

[@josephbolton5893]

@@General_Weebus People also forget, the punisher is a character made during a time with high, and rising, crime rates. He is an antihero because the time he was made saw that as being an antihero. It is only later with our cultures far more liberal view that people like Red would categorize him closer to being a villain. Given what she had said during this video and the amount of talk about the punisher it would have been nice if she was explicit in stating the reason why the punisher is seen as an antihero.

[@General_Weebus]

@josephbolton5893 Punisher's very first appearance was as an antagonist in a Spider-man story but he was tricked by one of the actual villains and all of the bad press Spidey gets from the Bugle. He tells Spidey he doesn't enjoy it but he has to do it to protect people. The real problem is he's a comic book character so his morality fluctuates wildly from writer to writer and Red only acknowledged the most uncharitable versions of his character. It'd be like talking about Harley Quinn and ardently ignoring that for more than half her existence she's been a villain.

[@preoccupied_space_dino_]

"70 white dudes, a few anime dudes, Blade, Black Widow, and Elektra..." I am wheezing.

[@MsDinova]

Is it just me or are those "3 anime dudes" specifically Vegeta, Zuko and Sasuke? XD EDIT: Before you “Well Actually” me on wether this character is an anti-hero or that character isn’t from an anime, please actually read my original comment. All I asked was if the little figures Red drew resembled those characters.

[@saqibahmed7740]

@@MsDinova I feel that Zuko is not a anti hero but a villain turned to a good hero.

[@tomraineofmagigor3499]

@@saqibahmed7740 is he really a villain if his country can progress the world and the rest of the world won't accept it. From propaganda pushed on him since birth he didn't know what his country was doing was oppression

[@robinschicha4712]

Yes, he is a Villain from the point of the 🦸🏼‍♂️. His Backstory not matter, his Actions.

[@pjdougherty6442]

saqib ahmed Even in season one, at his most villainous, he had enough heroic traits to be considered an anti villain, which is part of what made his slow turn to hero more natural.

[@gretahaffandhawf]

"And before you ask, no, this is not how I expected to use my math degree, but hey if it works, it works." -Red

[@kingsadvisor18]

This video actually justified the whole idea of math majors in general

[@bigmo611]

"Why do I have to learn about math? I'll never use this when I'm an adult... I'm going to be a KZbinr!" This is why. 😂

[@keithhagen7571]

See. I'm just sorta shocked she has a math degree. I figured she was an anthropologist

[@Rainbowthewindsage]

To be fair, my dad uses his math degree to figure how long a spoon need to be to not fall into a bowl when you set it down.

[@teaartist6455]

Well, I'm here using my, admittedly grammar school, maths to figure out ways to calculate approximate page counts of comics from the script.

[@toku_fox]

Maybe the real anti-hero was the friends we made along the way

[@MrKago1]

I think the reason Spidey stays in the hero category is because of his status as an everyman character. despite his power Peter Parker is just so damn relatable.

[@pridelander06]

"Characters are individuals, and, just like real life, a single label can't encapsulate the totality of their existence." Perhaps one of the biggest life lessons I really wish more people would learn.

[@Ramsey276one]

Agreed

[@slateoffate9812]

I wish that wasn't always the case. Me and my stupid Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle of a mind.

[@abbakarenina]

“3 anime dudes, Blade, Black Widow and Electra” is a MOMENT

[@blackvial]

She missed Spawn in that listing

[@TacticalRubberDucky]

@@blackvialTHANK YOU!!!

[@callaae]

I picked out Vegeta and Sasuke... but I don't know who the middle anime guy is...

[@verdragon5591]

False: Our lord and master Shadow 'The Ultimate Life Form' the Hedgehog is not among that list

[@NoblesseOblige-17]

@@callaae Lelouch from Code Geass. (Arguably the most liked anime character)

[@fictional-girl_05]

The definition of antihero that most resonates with me is a character who does the wrong things but for the right reasons.

[@shawerful5209]

a anti hero is a guy who do good things for selfish reasons, (like deadpool, most of the time when he is helping the heroes or killing a villain its because he is getting paid for that) Or they are good people who dont have a problem in killing or torturing their enemies (like the wolverine, a guy who have good heart and saves people because he know thats the right thing to do, but still dont have a problem in behead his enemies)

[@rimurutempest4945]

Odysseus being an anti-hero is the reason why I love him so much

[@axios4702]

Personally, I define anti-hero as: Someone you would call a villain if their actions werent directed at other badguys.

[@chadfalardeau3259]

The Punisher and The Wolverine # 1 and 2

[@ashadeofblue6815]

everyone would be a villain in that case spiderman instead of catching villains is beating up random citizens. Edit:grammar

[@JamieBatabyal]

The Netflix portrayal of The Punisher is a case in point for this. In both Daredevil Season 2 and his own show, he performs wanton acts of violence against people who have done bad things. But DDS2 portrays Frank as much more villainous than his own show does. Mainly, I believe, because in his own show, he's taking down people who are explicitly shown doing extremely nasty things, frequently to Frank himself. As such, the narrative presents his actions as far more justified. In Daredevil, his victims' crimes are rarely even mentioned to the audience - he just asks Matt to take it on faith (sorry) that everyone he killed was deserving of that fate. Daredevil (and by extension, the narrative) disagrees with Frank here. Later in the season, when he starts going after someone who has personally wronged him, his heroism-meter gets a bump.

[@phoenixfire1074]

That’s the Punisher in a nutshell

[@axios4702]

@@ashadeofblue6815 Pay attention to my wording, of course everyone would be a villain if they directed their power towards innocent people, but I´m not talking about that, I´m talking about what they do, their ACTIONS. Spiderman just beats up people (pretty shitty villain if you can even call him that). An anti-hero however may also murder, extort, threat, plant bombs, etc. (Example: Butcher in The Boys) However, this characteristically villanous actions are forgiven, or at least tolerated, by the audience due to them being directed at (or being means to harm) even more villainous characters PS: You may notice I have edited the comment it was just to change "his" for "their"

[@rotatingdisc-479]

"Antiheroism is usually more of a vibe than a quantifiable value judgement" Dam they really do be just vibing

[@brosephnoonan223]

bad meme

[@rotatingdisc-479]

no u

[@aundersave]

Batman: “Vibe Check”

[@scottn.6088]

@@aundersave *Buzzing is heard somewhere in the room.*

[@brosephnoonan223]

@@scottn.6088 bad meme

[@dude59974]

You went WAY DEEPER into this than I ever have. I've always defined an anti-hero as: Someone who breaks laws in order to stop other people from breaking more/worse laws. My typical example is Deadpool murdering a murderer so they don't murder more people. By committing 1 murder, he stops that person from committing multiple more in their lifetime.

[@platinumchromee3191]

Well,sure as hell my character is a divine killing machine named Mr.Edgelord and i'm pretty sure his kill count is huge,but let's count all innocent lifes saved.

[@MouldMadeMind]

So every superhero is a an anti-hero?

[@user-id3fc8qs7y]

In one comic(saw in KZbin Shorts) Deadpool literally decides to kill Santa Claus just because he didn't bring kids their presents 💀

[@DragonbIaze052]

Superman and Spider-Man are vigilantes. That's breaking the law. There's also the massive number of laws heroes break just by flying. The many times powers have been legislated as counting as weapons, every hero who steps near a school is breaking a law.

[@kazumablackwing4270]

The antihero is essentially the hero with a machiavellian twist. At the end of the day, the greater good is paramount, even if the methods to get there are less than savory. Sometimes you gotta do the wrong things for the right reasons

[@FreshZCORD]

Pretty much

[@alexanderdixson9956]

And some of them deserve it and they get what’s coming to them

[@purplehaze2358]

“The spiciest option on the protagonist menu” Radiation is just spicy air.

[@novameowww]

Spicy light*

[@ignoreme9110]

Why are you HERE bright?

[@brennanruiz1803]

@Ignore Me Could’ve sworn that “internet access” was on the List

[@purplehaze2358]

Ignore Me Why not?

[@purplehaze2358]

Brennan Ruiz What can I say, I’m a man of *BRIGHT* ideas.

[@MegaFafnir]

MAJOR kudos for highlighting Superman's "world of cardboard" speech, and why it makes him so admirable :)

[@jouheikisaragi6075]

Or pedantic depending on how you wanna write him. You can use one of his crowning moments to make him almost blatantly admit to a God Complex and treat this "The world is so frail I have to hold back" idea as straight up "I'm so much better than you that I have to lower myself to your level".

[@Center-For-I.E.D.Mismanagement]

@@jouheikisaragi6075 I suppose you could, especially if you're FRANK MILLER.

[@sayerglasgow115]

@TheThoughtPalace Uhhh... I'm pretty sure Superman does not know how to cure all diseases. Nor how to stop war, in any way besides just delivering an ultimatum that no one is allowed to war anymore. In fact, nothing I've seen suggests he's exceptionally intelligent at all.

[@sayerglasgow115]

@TheThoughtPalace Smart would be actually demonstrating an ability to come up with creative solutions to problems and out think opponents. Superman demonstrates a consistently unexceptional ability to do this. If he was ACTUALLY smarter than any human, Batman and Luthor wouldn't be outsmarting him all the time. The fact that Zod is so often a straight-up moron in his plans further disproves the idea of kryptonian hyper-intelligence.

[@sayerglasgow115]

@TheThoughtPalace Oh no, I've never particularly liked superman. I just think it's weird that you're criticizing him for not finding a cure for cancer when it doesn't seem likely to me that he could even do that. Superman's hyper-intelligence just sounds like something some writer put in without thinking about it and then forgot about because it didn't actually make sense.

[@cookiefaceyt2002]

Red: Is it heroic to change the world or support the status quo. Jreg fans: *heavy breathing"

[@prettyred8554]

Sometimes people say "anti-hero" when what they mean is "complex character." I think there's a reason so-called "anti-heroes" show up in superhero media...it didn't start out as the most complicated of genres, and throwing in a complex, imperfect character next to "Haha I punched a Nazi" boy makes them look anti-heroic by default

[@BabyBells231]

"I'm rude, self-destructive, traumatized, and miserable. Also bisexual" 11 days into the new year and you're already attacking me

[@clarienne7583]

So if I'm (mostly) polite, encourage self-love and acceptance, educator about mental health issues, and oddly content bisexual, does that make me an anti-anti-hero? Or possibly your long lost twin sister.

[@timothymclean]

@@clarienne7583 I'm polite, relatively functional, content, and asexual. I'm more anti-anti-hero than you!

[@pedroivantaveraferreira3037]

@@timothymclean you're asexual, you're clearly a villain

[@timothymclean]

@@pedroivantaveraferreira3037 Or possibly a robot.

[@natesmodelsdoodles5403]

@@clarienne7583 that would fall into the "hero" area.

[@straubreyquartz]

What I was supposed to take from this: the anti hero archetype is made up and doesn’t matter What I actually got from this: red, the KZbinr who gives off the most English/creative major vibes, is actually a math major

[@fantasyshadows3207]

She is secretly the antihero that doesn’t follow the norms OH WAIT IS RED SECRETLY AN ANTIHERO?

[@straubreyquartz]

According to this video, yes because anti hero rules are arbitrary 😜

[@Quantum-yz9fc]

Math and Computer Science

[@DS-wp2dj]

I once read something about the titular Emma of the Jane Austen novel sometimes being credited as the first anti-heroine. In this case, her anti-heroic qualities are that she and many of her loved ones view Emma and her personal qualities as inherently good and admirable, while the very quality of being admired causes her to continually hurt those around her while she remains unable to see the harm she's causing due to her perfect self-image. I like to extrapolate on that with the general rule that "if a character embodies traits or choices considered morally supreme and worthy of admiration within the world of their story, but embodies those traits or choices in a way which is seen as immoral, distasteful or un-admirable in the world of the same story."

[@joyc.e.7511]

Your description of Anakin reminds me of Eren Yeager right now. It's not that he's changed completely, it's that he's doing whatever's necessary to preserve HIS little group of humanity. Which has always been part of his motivation.

[@mickey4125]

he said it at the start. im going to kill them all...

[@onadaTotihotiH]

Can you describe antiheroes? Red: Well, yes, but actually no.

[@smeminem1258]

>the color red That's a pretty good description of antiheroes

[@postmodernguava9518]

You know, comic book antiheroes' mentality of "Why fight them over and over again when you can just kill them once?" doesn't make sense in a medium where death only lasts a few issues.

[@Punaparta]

“Don’t you realise, death is no object to most of the enemies we deal with? Quite frankly, as an alternative to some of the super-punishments we’ve had to devise over the years, execution’s a walk in the park. These ‘no-nonsense’ solutions of yours just don’t hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel.” - Superman, _JLA Classified_ #3

[@raziyatheseeker]

@@Punaparta Supes telling it like it is. :o

[@andrewkim9848]

While this is a valid argument, there’s still the fact that not every villain gets to come back (when they do it’s usually magic or reboot interference), so maybe they’re looking to get lucky?

[@tatwood1123]

Theres also the fact that if you set out to kill all bad guys, then the bad guys will fight to the last man, since they'll die anyway. While someone with the powers of superman wouldn't care, batman most definitely should. Since prolonging a fight means that the odds of someone getting in that one lucky shot increases dramatically.

[@timothymclean]

If only the justice department put more funding into the prison system, this debate wouldn't exist. Seriously, the Joker breaks out of jail as easily as a grumpy teen breaks out of his parents'house, and he doesn't even have superpowers!

[@bloopletank2491]

For the punisher, I like to imagine the good is in the fact that he's reducing the number of people being murdered, by murdering the murderers who do the murdering, there for preventing more murder.

[@alexanderdixson9956]

That is what makes him a hero, even though other heroes don’t see it as heroic

[@thenarrator4549]

My def of antiheroes: heroes who are perfectly fine with darker forms of justice such as death or a hero who mainly cares for themselves but has slight care for others.

[@a.n.9800]

The way I always saw it was: Heroes do the right thing for the right reason. Antiheroes do the right thing for the wrong reason. Antivillains do the wrong thing for the right reason. Villains do the wrong thing for the wrong reason. I understand this may be oversimplified though.

[@StarSage66]

It might be oversimplified but I do think it is a helpful generalization all the same

[@ForrestFox626]

Before you can color with shades of grey, you need to have access to blacks ⬛ and whites ⬜.

[@RhysClark97]

yeah but like, right and wrong are subjective maaann, no really though the way plot represents someones actions is usually more important than the actions themselves, that sort what she was getting at with the character of Anakin, someone who has seen to be a hero, a villain, an antihero and everything in-between depending on what piece of media you consume with him in it.

[@Jason23941]

This is basically the video's X/Y axis chart.

[@ariahazelwood3842]

Hahaha "oversimplified though"

[@fishbuddy547]

Trope Idea: Disabilities. Almost everytime a character with a disability comes on a show, they have to have some sort of power or ability to make up for it. Autistic? Congratulations, you're a genious now! Blind? Well now some sort of awesome ability, like ultrasonic sensing! Wheelchair bound? You'll either be a villian with a cat, get your ability to walk later, or are faking it! Very rarely disabilities are just disabilities in shows, they usually have some sort of gimmick or reason for the plot. I love this series and think this one might be a good idea to talk about.

[@RacingSnails64]

Fish buddy interesting point. i think the reason disabilities are turned into superpowers is for a very similar reason that racial minorities are so often requested to have no stereotypical qualities in stories: we already know that they can be bad in reality, so we just wanna see them in a positive light however we can. i mean imagine a story where the person in a wheelchair is constantly said to be useless. that'd be insulting and annoying! so giving them a superpower is a way to overcorrect that. the unexciting middleground would be to have a person in a wheelchair and never really do anything with that fact, which could be seen as uninteresting...and probably also branded as pandering 🙄🤦‍♀️

[@areadenial2343]

I think Spy Kids 3 touched on this a bit. Juni's grandpa Valentin is disabled, and gets a powerup that gives him legs in the game. It's been a while since I watched it though, so I don't exactly remember the message, but I recall that Valentin wanted to stay in the game, since he could walk, run, and was nearly indestructible, but Juni told him he didn't care about that and would think he was cool anyway, disabled or not. So then Valentin agreed to return to reality with Juni.

[@raziyatheseeker]

@@areadenial2343 Holy cow, that reminds me of the main character's younger brother Doned in Final Fantasy Tactics Advance. Not only was Doned wheelchair-bound, but also had other health issues and was constantly in the hospital. Hence when the MC and his hometown are whisked away to Ivalice in its golden age, Doned has a reason to stay in the fantasy world: he is no longer disabled and sickly. Really, as much as people slam FFTA for the drastic change in tone compared to the original FF Tactics, the game still has powerful themes under the surface. Wish I could say the same of FFTA2, which is basically just a magical summer vacation. That said, Ivalice in all its eras and games is still my favorite Final Fantasy setting for a reason. I believe Clemps' video defending FFTA is a worthwhile watch if one has the time to invest.

[@andrew10022]

Well if your watching a Super powered show then that would make sense. If they didn't have powers then they would be irrelevant to the plot and pushed aside for more useful characters.

[@aliattack2012]

Barbara Gordon sort of bucks this trend when she became oracle, like she never had powers but she found a way to work around her disability to be a hero

[@rasenshurikenfries2942]

I find it really interesting that you mention anakin. Anakin is a particularly interesting character, because he was intentionally designed to be layered, neither purely right or wrong, just like the Jedi. In an interview, Dave filoni talks about this, the idea that anakin’s passionate care for people around him is actually morally *right* and it is the Jedi’s dispassion that is their flaw. This idea is further broken down in the Extended universe, where a loved one of obi wan is killed, obi wan arrests the killer, instead of murdering him back. anakin wrongly assumes obi wan “didn’t really love her” but as filoni puts it, obi wan “learned how to love with an open heart” or out in English, he learned how to let go and still love intensely, he learned how to cope with loss of attachment in healthy ways, something anakin never learned how to do. Filoni breaks this down further when he talks about how anakin could have turned out differently, when he talks about why the track duel of the fates has its name; it’s a duel for anakin’s fate. Because anakin loses qui gon, he loses a parental figure a second (or third) time. He’s separated from his mother, and now his replacement paternal figure has died. If anakin actually wasnt massively retraumatized, he probably would have been able to attach to people in a healthy way. Qui gon also would have been a perfect mentor for him “trust your instincts”

[@rasenshurikenfries2942]

Accidentally submitted it early, so continuing to type here. Qui gon was something of a maverick among the Jedi, specifically because he followed his passions, he would have been an excellent father for anakin. Lastly, you’re right, the hero antihero binary really isn’t helpful, it keeps writing locked in banality and simplicity. the best characters are almost always morally neutral, or at least, have motivations that are amoral or can lead them to do good or bad things while being internally consistent. Take hondo ohnaka from Star Wars the clone wars. His Amoral motivation, get money, is pretty consistent across the series, and leads him to be an antagonist almost as often as he helps the heroes, and even then, when he does “the right thing” it’s for his own reasons (usually so he can get money). Hondo is interesting because he’s unpredictable, which is part of what makes a character human, and thus well written. But yeah, we need less hero anti hero binary and more characters with their own motivations that are independent of strict morality. Or at least, allow them to make mistakes, to do the wrong thing sometimes, and be morally nuanced. Getting things wrong is part of what makes us human.

[@ThePeaceDealer]

I would love to see you cover Anti-villains. I haven't seen talks on tropes this good anywhere. Thanks!

[@NerdSpartanPerson]

"Paragon heroes with very angry motivations" *Doomguy would like to know your location*

[@kiraramirez2776]

They killed his pet rabbit he had every right.

[@demi-fiendoftime3825]

@@kiraramirez2776 for Daisy never forget!

[@absanchez777]

Rip and tear gentlemen

[@dreamerhammerspace]

this is honestly really funny

[@solracstormhunter3023]

I was thinking the same thing. Also, in which quarter would this put John Wick into? (He's definitely inspired by Doomguy and you can't change my mind)

[@PhoenyxAshe]

My husband just inflicted me with this pun, and so I must now share my pain... "Whatever happened to the Uncle-Heroes?" I'll see myself out, and drag the other half with me.

[@ingonyama70]

I trust his retribution will be swift and terrible

[@willieoelkers5568]

They all just retire and open tea shops.

[@calamusgladiofortior2814]

Uncle Hero powers include finding quarters in people’s ears, capturing noses and the dreaded “pull my finger” attack...

[@brettdibble2763]

... i don't get it.

[@aflamingidiot4427]

He got shot to inspire the hero to use their powers for good.

[@Original_Syn]

I’d argue that the Punisher is in fact an Antihero because he isn’t just out for revenge. While revenge is a major part of his motivation his other major motivation is to go after the bad guys with the goal of preventing them from putting anyone else though what he went through (I.e having to helplessly watch his family being brutally killed in front of him)

[@alexanderdixson9956]

That is what makes him a hero

[@cherrycola542]

Harley Quinn is basically in the category as Catwoman, this is ESPECIALLY shown in The Harley Quinn Show on HBOmax.

[@GrieveIV]

I like the “don’t write the character as an anti hero, just write the character” aspect

[@timothymclean]

I like the part about how antiheroes are "allowed" to be in marginalized groups. It resonates with me now more than it would have when I was a kid; I didn't realize how many little ways I didn't fall into that archetype or why it mattered whether or not you got heroes who you could relate to. I also liked the graphs, because I am a huge geek.

[@GrieveIV]

Timothy McLean same lol. Made it really easy to think about

[@tenara-kun5979]

Probably someone: hey Red can you stop mentioning Avatar in Trope Tal- Red: DID SOMEONE MENTION THAT AVATAR HAS LITERALLY EVERY LITERARY DEVICE

[@Rainbowthewindsage]

That's more Hello Future Me. He got challenged to talk about redemption arcs, without talking about Zuko and went "How dare you I'm going to use him as the main example. Who do you think I am!"

[@jsystormkekkei572]

3:14 CW Anakin is my favorite character in all of Star Wars.

[@soldier257]

Spawn actually dodges that white dude aspect and is actually a really good anti-hero. He employs violence and death where a hero wouldnt, but he still has compassion and the ability to self-sacrifice, sometimes with his own powers. Anti-Hero to me is you employ methods a typical hero never would, have an aesthetic that borders on villain, and you still maintain hero motivation and goals. Spawn hits all those

[@alexanderdixson9956]

And so does wolverine, punisher, Deadpool, red hood, catwoman, Harley Quinn, ghost rider, venom, invincible and many others from comics, live action tv and movies, literature, video games, and anime and manga, this is everything an antihero is exactly to me, thank for this perfect description

[@-ism8153]

“Heroic traits can lead to unheroic actions in the right circumstances” *Dante sent you a friend request*

[@Azzabackam]

This is what I live for! I'm absolutely CRAZY ABOUT IT!

[@PintoRagazzo]

How's the dude getting a tour of the afterlife unheroic?

[@lapisleafuli1817]

@@PintoRagazzo devil may cry dante.

[@JT044-iz1cv]

What "unheroic" actions has Dante done?

[@Mongward]

Which Dante? Devil May Cry? Warhammer 40k? Dante's Inferno (the game)?

[@eview.753]

Me: talk about Anakin, talk about Anakin! Red: A great example is Anakin Skywalker from The Clone Wars! Me: YAAAAAS

[@inkslaboratory3010]

We all know she's the literature/media queen. >:3

[@davidwuhrer6704]

He lived long enough to see himself become the villain.

[@tillerintoxicated6917]

With great powers comes the ability to choke a bitch from a good distance

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

Boo! That guy became the very thing he swore to destroy!

[@lunda2222]

The most anti everything isn't a lack of morals, but indifference. I find the most archetypical anti hero is the mercenary. The guy who doesn't care about morals but works for whoever pays him. Usually they gets a redemption arc like say Han Solo in A New Hope but not always.

[@sylvercritter]

I came in with an idea what an anti-hero was, I came out not knowing what an anti-hero was.

[@voltsiano116]

Red: _Puts together a well-edited and visualized video to talk about an interesting topic in such a way that would impress any college professor._ Also Red: "So yeah."

[@Valigarmanda]

lmao

[@d3-ll754]

Speaking as someone who can also articulate a thought while also having no idea how to end it, I can vouch for the realism of this scenario. XD

[@AlbertFingernoodle959]

12:37 with Spider-Man it means “if you can do good you must do good” and with super man it means “you must be careful with your powers”

[@bluelandyaandgreenlandya1788]

Which is kinda weird because if you just look at the motto Spiderman goes by it sounds like the same thing superman is saying

[@Azmodeus87]

@@bluelandyaandgreenlandya1788 That's because when it comes to writing, the person delivering a message changes it just as much as the actual text of the message. It's even part of the build-up to the "World of cardboard" Red mentions, that all Clarke's friends are Grade A determinators, always willing and able to give their all ,while he can't most of the time. When it comes to Spider-man, his mantra means to always wield his power for altruistic reasons, since he can do a lot more then most people. It's also pertinent to Peter, since he's NOT unvawering in his ethics & optimism. He, unlike Clark, needs a mantra about being a force for good, since he's designed to be neither Morally infallible, nor ironclad in his convictions. TL;DR "With great power comes great responsibility" means different thing when you can either punch Darkseid across the globe, or die protecting the city from Thanos.

[@normal6483]

@@bluelandyaandgreenlandya1788 Like most early superhero comics, they're both made by Jewish writers and both have very heavy Jewish-coding. Judaism places a heavy emphasis on community and a moral responsibility to do good regardless of how you feel about it, while also emphasizing that it's a bad thing when you use power to achieve good things via bad methods. (There's several prayers and such during Passover dedicated to just saying, "Wow, those plagues were a bit much, G-d didn't really need to go that far." And most golem stories usually have the golem going berserk not against Jews but against non-Jewish aggressors, and the golem gets shut down because reckless retaliation is a bad thing.) So even though it's true that the core sentiment of "With great power comes great responsibility," exists with both characters, it's more accurate to say that both characters are just deviating explorations of the morals of their Jewish roots and that "With great power comes great responsibility" is just an accurate summation of one of Judaism's core ethical paradigms.

[@cypher4783]

@@normal6483 this is fascinating! I am wondering though how has American ideals effect these Jewish values. If you look at the US military there's an ideal "learn from every one". The US has basically been at war for as long as it has been around. From the native Americans the US learned the value of far ranging skirmishers and jaw dropping nerve. From the British the value of using warships, infantry and spies in tandem. WW2 germans taught them the value of combined air and land warfare. Japanese the value of streamlined aggressive assaults. Vietcong taught the value of ambush and partisan movements. Which begs the question, what is an authentic American hero when it's ideal in warfare is to be as pragmatic as possible?

[@kimarna]

Ironically Spiderman also has to constantly hold back, and even roll with punches so he doesn't break people's fist when they hit him. He's WAY stronger than he lets on

[@DragcoDavid]

It's funny you mention the 90's Antiheroes; I actually know a perfect movie that actually goes over the debate of the 90's Antihero vs the traditional Paragon, in an actual meaningful way; "Superman vs The Elite" - The Elite basically being a team of Antiheroes who literally basically become popular because they are willing to actually kill the villains, and while claiming to have heroic motives, are generally just on a power trip and do it because they can; they even push Superman to the brink of crossing that line into Antihero himself.

[@mathphysicsnerd]

I'm guessing from the age of this comment you hadn't seen the Superman Detail Diatribes when you posted this

[@kayten3537]

I think what fits the anti hero definition is the Marvel character is Namor. Marvel's Aquaman with Orm like motivation wanting to protect his kingdom in the ocean and sometimes considers destroying the surface world to do so. Doing bad things and claim his actions are right. For the greater good. That doesn't make what he does good, especially when he kidnaps Invisible Woman, changes a town to live underwater and other stuff. Definitely fits the definition better than the Punisher. Don't you think?

[@randomdude9583]

"With a wife he likes alright, and a boyfriend he likes way more." Aaaannnd now my laptop has soda and saliva all over it.

[@jennytulls6369]

@Super Greyflash What're you implying? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[@saikanji9570]

@Super Greyflash From... From what else? (concerned face)

[@soapthesoap]

Haha same

[@summerwatson3794]

“How did I talk about this for 15 minutes?” - me after talking to a random stranger about how weird it is we never see a baby pigeon

[@STALKER953]

Thanks, I hate it

[@summerwatson3794]

TheRogue 😂😂

[@summerwatson3794]

If it’s about the baby pigeons: they don’t leave the nest until maturity. If it’s about the outcome of the conversation with the stranger: they sort of just smile and nod politely while they edge away and look for an excuse to leave the conversation

[@garbagecannot8830]

its cause birds don't exist

[@kriptonite981]

Pigeons are just CIA drones. They recharge by landing on power lines

[@CharaViolet]

I always thought an anti-hero was a character who isn't a hero or protagonist but is still in opposition with the villain/antagonist

[@FreshZCORD]

Well they can be a protagonist and hero

[@ninjabluefyre3815]

In trope language "the Starscream"

[@wickerbotterthewizard707]

If I were to sum up my understanding from the video, it's that anti-heroes are read not written.

[@natetso3307]

Red: * mentions Avatar * HelloFutureMe: “DID SOMEBODY SAY AVATAR”

[@davidwuhrer6704]

James Cameron's masterpiece.

[@natetso3307]

David Wührer Not the one I was referring to, but yes that one is good too

[@lillymoonstar8]

Zu.... zuzu.... Zuko,,,

[@Hickabooboo]

When does Red NOT mention Avatar?

[@natetso3307]

Coffee Daemon Fair point, though some tropes just simply don’t fit it. Like robots or dystopias.

[@thisisfine4093]

Anakin’s friend: You must KILL me to SAVE me. Anakin: *heavy breathing*

[@EagleEye-rw5pn]

*visible confusion*

[@BubblesTheAmoeba]

"let's look up a top antihero list!" "wait, it's all deadpool?" "always has been"

[@alexanderdixson9956]

Deadpool is #1 Anti-Hero

[@keeganheckel1543]

Not only is she beautifully eloquent, and both analytically and comedy minded, but her voice is fantastic. I could seriously listen to her for hours.

[@FreshZCORD]

*Horny bonk*

[@losttessa6998]

14:40 “There’s tons of lists of best anti-heroes in fiction and they’re all like 70 white dudes, 3 anime dudes, Blade, Black Widow and Elektra.” 😂😂😂

[@anthonynorman7545]

Best line of the vid!

[@vulkanofnocturne]

Personally I don't have a problem with white people or Blade.

[@ravenfrancis1476]

@@vulkanofnocturne Red doesn't have a problem with white dudes either, she's just saying they're way too prevalent in fiction. Also, why'd you add Blade? Why would you have a problem with him?

[@ThatRandomPerson15]

@@ravenfrancis1476 whoops. Looks like you activated his trap card.

[@sirbruno95]

I find that statement bothersome. You honestly can't objectively criticize that most protagonist with a niche label are part of a single group, when that group was mainstream for 80 years while the other groups just became more mainstream friendly in the last 15, 20+ for the less niche groups like Asians. The antihero label was even considered a bad label to have for your hero till the 90's, so of course people wouldn't give their protagonist from niche groups a negative label unless it was for plot reasons. I honestly wish red would take more recent examples when she tries to make a point. It's obvious why there's so many white protagonist if you make a list that dates back to before the 80's.

[@odericn.8998]

"I will not be accepting criticism at this time" that made me laugh more than it should have lmao

[@theautisticartist9370]

To me, an anti hero is someone against the hero and also the villain, but is not fully a vigilante. Just kinda there.

[@SophieHatterLeFay]

Okay favorite anti hero for me has always been accelerator from a certain magical index/scientific railgun. He doesn't get a lot of screentime, but his journal to redeem himself, when we realize all he wanted was to stop the constant assassination attempts, but went about it horrifically and his struggles to make up his wrongs. His character journey is by far the most developed out of all the characters in 40+ books