Trope Talk: Idiot Plots

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This one's a spicy meatball! Today let's talk about the plots that are driven, in whole or in part, by the characters acting dumb - and how that's not always a bad thing!
Video examples in order of first appearance: I Love Lucy, Divergent, Star Wars III, Doctor Strange (as a contrasting non-idiot plot example), Spider-Man: No Way Home, Captain America: Winter Soldier, TMNT 2007, Batman v Superman, The Three Stooges, Twelfth Night, Alien, Romeo and Juliet, Hadestown, Assassin's Creed 2, The Dark Knight, Captain America: Civil War, Frozen,
MUSIC:
Scheming Weasel, Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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[@markcochrane9523]

Good writing advice I've heard before: if your character is urgently driving somewhere and you need them to not make it in time, don't have them stop for a burger, instead have them break the speed limit and get pulled over for it. Both are mistakes, but the latter is understandable and consistent with their motivation, while the former is just stupid.

[@chrayez]

And depending on how late you need them to be, there can be additional drama with the traffic stop. Need more time “wasted?” Then maybe the character is getting visibly impatient and anxious at the very normal duration of this traffic stop, and the officer gets concerned and asks them to please step out of the car.

[@maxb3690]

Unless burgers are a consistent character flaw that has been demonstrated throughout the story. In which case, I hope to god that you are writing a comedy.

[@0_Body]

But what if the villain ordered the burger and the hero needed to make it in time or they got no tip?

[@drewjay8940]

This is exactly the problem with Falling Kingdoms. The character are actively being chased and their body guard goes off to get "provisions for the road" or whatever. His 2 companions wait for him in the middle of the road in broad daylight and act completely shocked when the villain catches up.

[@robertlewis6915]

Just give him a burger addiction because he lives in a country where all burgers are doped with opium.

[@mrniceguylff1]

Best example ever: Every single episode of Flash where Barry somehow forgets he can move at the speed of light.

[@emmajaramillo9160]

like barry why do you let the villains talk at all just do it

[@fiction5559]

That show went to trash after Season 2, I haven't watched it for ages. Doubt its even relevant at this point.

[@shindean]

I love that in Falcon in the Winter Soldier they actually address the inconsistency on powers. Bucky admitting that he's right-handed not left and it makes him forget to use his arm was awesome.

[@euansmith3699]

It is always Barry Allen's fault; always! 😄😄😄⚡

[@drakkenmensch]

He does remember in the 30 seconds Scooby-Doo crossover episode where the Flash catches and unmasks the ghost in under a minute.

[@Comicsluvr]

When I saw Batman v. Superman, I resolved the fight immediately. Luthor said 'If you kill me...she dies. If you fly away...she dies.' Okay...how about if I grab YOU, fly you to Batman...the WORLD'S GREATEST DETECTIVE... and say 'This creep has kidnapped my mom to force me to fight you and we have 58 minutes to find her.'

[@haalandfilms1695]

which wouldn't work because the moment he grabs Lex his mom dies. Also batman doesn't care about Supermans mom at this point, he sees killing Superman is the best way to save hundred thousand more people to die, as for every even Superman just shows up, thousands of people die. Batman has fallen so far from a rational person he is willing to sacrifice a few to save many. That's why Alfred is worried about him. Bruce not being himself is literally the point of that characters story in this film. He fall into darkness the moment he was too weak to save anyone during the Superman vs Zod fight. It triggered the same powerless trauma he got when he was a kid. The film literally tells us that from the beginning: Bruce has fallen, he needs to be saved.

[@wildheart3899]

@@haalandfilms1695 Finally, someone understands.

[@nuclearsimian3281]

@@haalandfilms1695 How the fuck can he push the button to kill her if Superman holds both his arms behind his back gently. He had to send a signal, or to get them to kill her before the time expired.

[@stevenstice6683]

I'd have used heat vision against Batman. If he dies, Martha goes free, and Batman wants to kill Superman. Sounds like an easy choice, right? I mean it's not like Superman had a reputation to protect anymore.

[@Hadar1991]

I will defend Batman v Superman, especially on the Batman side who definitely is not an idiot in this plot. He is also very much in character, but people forget that Ben Affleck portrays past-prime Batman destroyed by 20+ years of fighting crime, who already lost all his ideals and morals. Nietzsche once wrote "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..." and here Batman is already years after he became monster. Maybe people have problems with understanding Batman in BvS, because it was the first appearance of "Batfleck" who was the antithesis of the Batman that media previously fed us. But even Batman in BvS could perfectly communicate with Superman would not have an influence on his goal to kill Superman. And also Sups had his issues with Batman. The problem begins in the third act where Superman does not act rationally and his reason to fight Batman is not as convincing. As much I like Jesse Eisenberg 's Lex Luthor Jr. and his motivation it just don't feel like Superman would not be able to find his mother on his own (and even using LL Jr. as his human shield). Batman should start the fight and force Superman to fight. Batman also should kill Superman or least hurt Superman so much that he tough he killed Superman. People often misunderstand the "find Martha" moment, it has almost nothing to do with the fact that both guys mothers have the same name, but the realization by Batman that he is the monster, he is the villain and maybe alien Superman is more human than human Bruce Wayne. It would far more compelling if dying Superman begged Batman to do something human (e.g. saving his mother) and then Superman on his last breath sacrificing himself to kill Doomsday. Batman transformation from monster to hero just feels rushed and in my opinion if would be better Batman to the very end was the villain of this story, who thinks he is the hero but eventually realizing that he is the villain. But until the moment Superman decides to fight Batman I just adore the extended cut of BvS.

[@billcynic1815]

I used to get a lot more frustrated with idiot plots in stories. Then I started DMing in D&D. Forget about abilities and resources that would instantly solve this problem? Choose the absolute dumbest possible option available that causes everything to go sideways? Completely ignore or misinterpret the obvious hints thrown at them? Seen them all. And done some myself on the other side of the screen. It's helped me be sympathetic that people actually can and do act that way. Never underestimate your player's ingenuity or their stupidity.

[@flowerdream2732]

Never underestimate your player's wish to have fun x)

[@JoeStuffzAlt]

Agreed! In some cases, it can be lack of experience in the situation. In others, people assume they know everything. In others, they already had a plan in their minds that they want to execute. Last year: "don't buy an expensive GPU if you can help it. There's good market research on this" and now they are around 50% the price. I know a lot of people that bought a GPU that really didn't need to (I had one that was dying and was forced to) I worked places where "oh, if I do this, I can assume that people will take the most sensible path" and they... don't. There's times where a warning was placed and ignored, and it ended up being a downfall in one way or another. One place had workers that were assumed to be really good.

[@oisnowy5368]

Let's say D&D is entertainment. Choosing the simple, rational option would be boring. Sometimes the point is to figure what exactly can go wrong.

[@gilgameschvonuruk4982]

Real human beings can be very stupid

[@FenrirInFlowers]

My bard will try to seduce the Litch...

[@elsewhereprince3969]

“The problem with an idiot plot is not, as one might think, that the plot involves characters acting dumb. The problem is when it makes us question if the author is also dumb.” What a wonderful way to end and sum things up.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

I would say the problem is when the plot makes it obvious the author thinks the audience is dumb.

[@BoostedMonkey05]

Star Wars sequel trilogy in a nutshell. Why is a galactic wide government incapable of fighting a splintered empire when the fact that most of the Alliance was composed by pragmatists? "They didn't want to appear like the Empire so they decided the sector fleets were a viable strategy" well too bad since not every sector is capable of defending themselves from a unified threat. It also puts into perspective why starkiller base wasn't discovered long before it was fired. The Last Jedi is just everything wrong with The Force Awakens dialed up to 11.

[@ViolosD2I]

I lately noticed that the Lord of the Rings movies are being shown in cinemas again, with extra shows being added due to high demand. Seems like people are being nostalgic about the time the adaptations used to be good.

[@thomaskilmer]

@@BoostedMonkey05 That one, unfortunately, is all too plausible given historical events. WWII, electric boogaloo, this time with more Nazis, unfortunately did exactly this. Right down to the massive German arms buildup right in front of everyone's faces.

[@BoostedMonkey05]

@@thomaskilmer well the problem with that argument is that the German rearmament in violation of the treaty of Versailles was the result of a lot of things one of which was the radicalization of Germany after the incompetency of the Weimar Republic as well as the French Occupation of the Ruhr Valley. and yes I blame Nazis on the French. the glaring issue with comparing the first order to the Nazis is that this was an overt superweapon, you could not think of this in any other way. An entire planet being used gouged out to be turned into a massive battery for a massive cannon. Even if the galaxy had its fair share of superweapons "Centerpoint station" in the Maw Cluster. They were usually very known to the NR and were completely monitored and it was always treated as a massive issue when someone tried to take control of it.

[@dudewhatthewhat8983]

The secret to why idiot plots aren’t always a bad thing: Actual idiots exist, and sometimes do idiot thing. Just convince the audience the character is indeed one of these people

[@zashgekido5616]

I dunno that still doesn't stop people at times. Remember infinity war?

[@Homer-OJ-Simpson]

@@zashgekido5616 that’s why I can’t stand most of those marvel movies anymore. After the entertainment valúe wore off for me after 10th MCU movie, I began to be annoyed by the dumb moves some make.

[@Homer-OJ-Simpson]

Idiot plots only work when idiot action is believable based on defined character or defined world. Dumb and dumber works great because it fits the world and characters. But add an idiot plot to say The Departed, then it makes no sense and it’s annoying! (Edit: which is why The Departed didn’t use this plot device, was using it as an example of a movie where guy cant force it into). Unless you created a well written character that is just a screw up and it’s expected he will screw again.

[@TheMightyBattleSquid]

I think that fails to remember part of the trope is that it's *contrived*. If it's just an idiot being an idiot because they're an idiot it isn't contrived but natural.

[@zashgekido5616]

@@Homer-OJ-Simpson That... Was a dig at the audience of infinity war as opposed to infinity war itself, but fair enouh I suppose

[@jaydraws692]

"Because why would anyone assume that the person they're talking to is actually that person's secret identical twin?" This was basically Stan Pines' logic in almost all of Gravity Falls imo

[@intellectually_lazy]

oof, there's a whole 'nother problem with gravity falls. it's called the "end". it was so good, then...

[@PoisonFlower765]

@@intellectually_lazyOn one hand, yes the ending is the part of the show most subject to criticism (Mabel being kinda dumb and selfish, Pacifica's character development being undone for a few cheap gags, and Stanford pine's sacrifice being undone within minutes), but overall it's still pretty damn good and those criticisms (other than Pacifica) can be justified.

[@mullent169]

Believe it or not, Shrek of all films falls into this criteria. Most notably near the end where Shrek overhears Fiona talking about how no one would love a beast so hideous and ugly when she's actually referring to herself. Shrek then leaves after hearing half the conversation. He comes back later and confronts Fiona about what he heard. Another misunderstanding occurs, this time on Fiona's part. Shrek said he heard "Every word", making Fiona think he knows about her secret and is disgusted over her "true" self, when in fact, he believes she is disgusted by him. The genius comes from the fact that both these characters are majorly insecure about themselves, and it makes perfect sense why both would misunderstand the other. "Well, I thought, that wouldn't matter to you..." "Well... It does!" A Truly heartbreaking and well written scene from a fantastic film.

[@phastinemoon]

Someone on tumblr brought up that that scene is a great example of how self-deprecation can both hurt the people around you who care about you, AND anyone around you who shares those same traits you hate about yourself. Y’know, like if you make a joke about your own big nose or bad breath, and say “yeah, guess that’s why nobody likes me, ha ha” as your friend (who ALSO has a big nose or bad breath) is just thinking ‘gee, thanks - so you’re saying nobody likes me, either?’

[@rainpooper7088]

I don't even think that's particularly idiotic as both of them genuinely think they know that the other is proving the insecurities they hold about themselves true. Even when they do talk, you can tell that from each of their perspectives, it legitimately looks like the other is saying exactly what they think about themselves. It's a perfectly believable misunderstanding and it actually makes more sense that neither of them would want to pursue the matter further than if they randomly sat down and went "Okay, so it seems you literally agree with everything I hate about myself but let's talk.". The writing is just that good.

[@BarafuAlbino]

@@rainpooper7088 My only conclusion from that scene is "Use less pronouns and finish your phrases".

[@letoatreides5165]

That always breaks my harmony-seaking heart😢

[@BrunoMaricFromZagreb]

The movie was ahead of its time.

[@brennanruiz1803]

One thing I love about Hadestown is that “it’s an old song, it’s an old tale, it’s a tragedy”, and yet you can still hear the gasp rip through the theater when he turns around.

[@michaelacraigmile1241]

I've seen it several times. It still gets a "goddamnit orpheus" from me every time.

[@KelpieRider]

That's the real beauty of a tragedy, that you can sit through the same story, know the ending the entire time, and still hope it will be different.

[@PassiveSmoking]

That's how it is with the best tragedies. We all know from the start that the character is doomed, it's how that doom plays out.

[@karin5127]

I'm one of those people for sure! I know the myth, played the soundtrack on loop, and still, seeing it live, my hands flew to my mouth when he turned

[@dreamwalker7483]

Every time it happens I feel the same shock and despair even tho I always know its coming. Its such a sad ending and yet I keep coming back and keep getting upset at the turn

[@wormsdonthaveeyes2888]

“A good old miscommunication that could be solved in ten seconds of punch-free communication” is now my favorite thing that anyone has ever said.

[@timothymclean]

Why bother with ten seconds of punch-free communication when you can have fifteen seconds of communication AND exercise?

[@DaveTpletsch]

It never ceases to amaze me how many of these trope talks boil down to "this trope isn't bad, it's a useful writing device, but bad or clueless application by authors who should know better has given it a bad rap." Honestly, this whole series should be required material for creative writing classes. Lol.

[@jj-sc1kq]

I'd second that. Red always does a great job.

[@MSCDonkeyKong]

i dont remember where i got this from, but i remember hearing somebody say "the difference between a trope and a cliche is that tropes can be twisted to be made original". tropes arent inherently bad, they're just a tool you can use. cliches are the one thats inherently bad just because they're tropes made stale.

[@battlesheep2552]

Usually a trope only becomes a trope in the first place because they are good enough to be used frequently, with some exceptions being that they were good in the past when values were different, like racist and sexist tropes.

[@wolfyblackknight8321]

Honestly as someone who toys with creative writing as a mix of a hobby and making a dnd setting. I keep coming back to trope talks since it can help alot with bad writing or not using a trope that well.

[@elliaselliot641]

@@MSCDonkeyKong i think red has said that

[@williamklaiss992]

Hamlet can be described as being so smart that he wraps around to being stupid.

[@drewjay8940]

While she was describing Hamlet I was thinking of episode 1 of Adventure Time. Princess Bubblegum is supposed to be a genius and Finn and Jake are kind of goofy. At the end she remarks that they saved the day because she was too smart to try the incredibly stupid idea that ended up working.

[@shikatsu]

High int low wisdom

[@cryofpaine]

@@shikatsu Bingo! The world isn't made for the ultra-smart people, so it's easy to be too smart for the way the real world works.

[@1224chrisng]

var hamletSmart = 255; while hamletSmart < 127; hamletSmart ++;

[@Kalebfenoir]

I still remember watching the Kenneth Branagh version of Hamlet in HS. While everyone was talking about how cruel he was to Ophelia for no reason, I was the only person in class who realized he was trying very hard to get her out of what was going to come. He wanted her to be safe and far away from what he was going to do, but he couldn't outright come and say it, or the jig would be up. So instead he pretends to be mean to her, and mildly crazed, to the point she does leave. He just didn't count on her believing his act so completely that it drove her mad, and had legitimate heartbreak when she turned up dead. By that point in the story, even if he'd WANTED to just take her aside and say "Look, I'm going to be killing the king because he killed my dad. I don't want you ANYWHERE near here because I could die in the process, and I really do care about you.", he couldn't because he was already in too deep. So he could only watch helplessly when she lost her mind, because he knew it was HIS fault.

[@ARockRaider]

What's really sad/disturbing is how many real life disasters feel like an "idiot plot" in hindsight.

[@footlong7980]

I remember that one tragedy from 1920 or so about a boy that fell through a hole, and a similar story about a man that got stuck in a cave. The former had supposed professionals making idiotic decisions in arrogance and avarice, and the later had the usual idiotic, ignorant doggedness and Morbid curiosity associated with tragedy speculators be the downfall of the victims respectively. I don't remember the name nor specifics of the circumstances behind the boy's story, but I do remember that the man was Floyd Collins. There's a wiki article and an extensive YT video talking about his story.

[@fluffybutter4684]

Almost every nuclear disaster ever is basically an irl idiot plot

[@ARockRaider]

@@fluffybutter4684 pretty much. Many transportation disasters as well.

[@Real_Mechanic87]

@@fluffybutter4684 A non-nuclear example of an IRL 'Idiot Plot': "Yeah, let's just go ahead and dump our still smoldering trash into this old coal mine. What's the worst that could happen?" (Centralia, PA.)

[@phastinemoon]

Only because hindsight is a 20/20 omniscient 3rd person perspective. When you’re in limited 1st person, real-time? You are only a mere human, and therefore, a real idiot.

[@YiPeaches]

This episode brought to you by Team Van Helsing repeatedly deciding not to tell Mina what's going on

[@julietfischer5056]

Because she is a woman and must be protected from assisting in her own defense. Some weird Victorian logic. Hell, they didn't even tell a plausible lie to Lucy's mother, leading to the young woman's death.

[@KopperNeoman]

@julietfischer5056 The modern equivalent to that would be if Helsing told Mina and Lucy everything, and they went all Strong Independent Woman and got themselves killed and turned and crap.

[@intellectually_lazy]

@@KopperNeoman think you're most likely a bigot, but i may be wrong. i did write something not too long ago when this one dude tells his gf not to fight his ex-gf because she's crazy. she calls him captain save a ho, and instantly gets her face cut open. lucky for that walk-on that dude's dad invented what's basically heal light wounds for that world, but that guy was advising against violence at all, and that ex actually ends up hitting him with a car on purpose later

[@astrophysicsperson528]

Van Helsing to Lucy: You must keep these garlic flowers close and keep the windows shut. Do not tell anyone why they are here or what they're for. Mrs. Westerna who was never told what the flowers were for: *throws them all out and opens the window* Van Helsing: surprisedpikachuface.jpg Van Helsing, later: Madame Mina has been an essential asset with her meticulous record keeping and documentation that has allowed us to better study Dracula's movements without relying on memory or trying to playback Dr. Seward's phonograph recordings. And that is why she should be excluded from all future Dracula-defeating endeavors because keeping the women completely in the dark worked out so well last time!

[@claran3616]

Thank would actually be a good bit of really aggressive satire lol. (Satire only)

[@Alias_Anybody]

"I have to fight him, for my honour!" "But he'll kill you" "I think I already mentioned my honour?" In other words, such plots can also be the consequence of different values, not just miscommunication.

[@intellectually_lazy]

i think that's why achilles went to ilium, though there were definite miscommunications in that too, and a lot of asshole stubborness

[@asolomoth1066]

I remember hearing something about how if Othello and Hamlet swapped places, their stories would be resolved. Hamlet would see Iago's bullshit immediately because he is careful and clever. If Othello's dead father told him to kill his step dad, the play would be over in about 5 minutes. Idiot plots really do work when it's because a character is just *being themselves* in a situation where being themselves is probably the worst option

[@11th-lemon]

I think that was said or at least quoted by Red in the trope talk on tragedies.

[@dylanjwagner]

@@11th-lemon it totally was

[@therainbowwillow4453]

Same goes for Macbeth and Hamlet. Macbeth might hesitate, but would ultimately kill Claudius. Hamlet would stall long enough to fulfill the prophecy in some entirely accidental way.

[@msk-qp6fn]

Yeah and that is usually the point of tragedies with the element of self fulfiling prophecies or good idiot plots. That the characters' true own choices based on their established or acquired personality lead them there. All perfectly preventable yet not. It makes the tragedies and comedies from it all the more effective because that is US in real life.

[@johnnygyro2295]

@TheRainbowWillow Speaking of Macbeth, this is the first time I heard the "Macbeth and his wife jump straight to murder instead of thinking they could have a daughter who'll marry Banquo's son" idea.

[@lyinar]

Honestly, I'd say Frozen fits the "Tragedy Idiot Plot", save that they just BARELY manage to pull out a happy ending, and it works because they're all acting on things that are shown to be part of their overall characterization (and in several cases, things explicitly shown as something they need to grow beyond). Elsa's freakout is entirely understandable thanks to her parents genuinely wanting to help her but being idiots about it. Anna is desperately lonely, which is both why she falls for Hans and why she runs off after her sister completely unprepared despite the whole "Walking Fimbulwinter" thing. Duke Weaseltown (WESELTON!) is greedy, paranoid about how mysterious Arendelle is, and not that bright, so his idiotic actions make sense in context. Even Hans is driven by his desperation to actually make a name for himself, given the way his entire family treated him.

[@pippastrelle]

Honestly the biggest idiot ball is probably held by the parents. So, while the character actions feel satisfying, the set up doesn't. I think it fits into the "trying to explain the idiot plot" problem. Had the king and queen truly feared magic, they would have been projecting that fear onto Elsa and forcing her to stay inside and away from her sister. Then the conflict of Elsa and Anna's misunderstandings becomes a realistic product of their upbringing. The issue is that they tried to make the king and queen seem rational/like they were training Elsa by locking her away, which we see causes way more problems despite being framed by wise people as a solution.

[@Kagane1001]

I recommend the "how it should have ended" skit from frozen to highlight the parents idiocy The rest of the plot, arguably, is the logical result of interpreting "fear is the enemy" as "here's your room Elsa, BB👋"

[@CrowXIII]

Problem with Elsa is that she flipflops between extremely scared with accidentaly agressive powers and extremely uncaring with purposely agressive powers, and it's always in the opposite instances she should be be behaving that way, while also having the whole bay of arendelle in view, being able to see them freezing but somehow still thinking she's isolating for their benefit.

[@Dachusblot]

The biggest idiot ball in Frozen was definitely Hans. He was fine up until the big reveal that he was a villain, and then he suddenly became a huge idiot. He probably could have convinced Anna to marry him legitimately before she froze to death. But instead he monologues to her about his evil scheme, then leaves her to die without actually making sure she's dead, then goes and tells everyone that yeah, they totally got married, for real, even though there were no witnesses. *facepalm*

[@nacaicon1593]

@@Dachusblot I know!!! He could have gotten everything he wanted and was trying to do, by just being less of an ass for a couple more hours! Yes, 'true love's kiss' had no chance of working, but no one had any proof it would have worked anyway. He could have easily convinced her, when it didn't work, that he would find a solution, and she totally would have believed him the big ignorant wishful dumb dumb that she is. He even already showed to be a decently competent leader- more so then Elsa, and way more than Anna, at least- what with taking charge of the blankets and other supplies, and also attempting diplomacy with Elsa before resorting to violence. Granted, since he was 'secretly evil the whole time', it probably would have not worked out long term for Arendelle, but there is no reason anyone would ever have suspected him if he hadn't told her. Even in the worse case (for him) where winter goes away, Elsa is crowned Queen Regent, and Anna survives somehow, he still earned strong support from the people during the crisis which he could use as political leverage against Elsa in order to get married to Anna. Then figure out a way to quietly dispose of Elsa, like he had originally planned anyway. Or he could get greedy and attempt to marry Elsa directly, but that wouldn't have much chance of success me thinks, the fall out with Anna would weaken his support base. Of course, without him directly threatening Elsa's life, Anna wouldn't have 'committed an act of true love' trying to save her, meaning neither sister would have been saved. If she didn't end up dying (by her hand or Hans') or going full Evil, Elsa probably would have become a hermit living in her ice palace. Though I can understand Hans wouldn't want an Ice Witch living on his freshly acquired doorstep, so even if he understood she wanted nothing to do with the Throne (if she ever did) she would still be a problem he would have to do something about. Either way, delaying the confrontation until Anna was confirmed dead, or let a dying Anna convince Elsa to leave Arendelle to him. I think about this occasionally, maybe one or two times a year, and I still get mad about it. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

[@DeinosDinos]

It's barely related but I keep thinking of that scene in Falcon and the Winter Soldier when Sam questions Bucky why he used a wrench instead of his metal arm to fix a leak. Bucky took a look at his left arm and went 'well, I'm right handed so...' Still very funny to me.

[@SpottedHares]

Maybe this could be filed under the “well I never thought of that” section of idiot plot. Something that just didn’t cross that charters mind until some one points it out.

[@artemiswolf4508]

Besides Shakespeare I would also like to point to Jane Austen as a master of the idiot plot. The whole set up of pride and prejudice is just that simple. Elizabeth hears Mr Darcy says some cruel things and she doesn’t mishears them they are as bad as they sound, but because of her prejudices she lets that one interaction form her entire idea of Mr Darcy which leaves her vulnerable to believing all of Wickhams lies simply because she judges him as better. Darcy on the other hand is too proud to admit he’s just socially awkward and not the best with words, he’s too proud to let himself openly love Elizabeth despite her embarrassing family and even after he understands all the lies Elizabeth has been told he’s still too proud to simply explain himself. Like yes the conflict could have been very easily solved if Darcy and Elizabeth sat down to have an honest conversation about their feelings early on, but then the characters wouldn’t have been Darcy and Elizabeth and the story wouldn’t have been as interesting.

[@nardoritardeau2291]

Great point. Just read this book this year for the first time and i loved it.

[@msk-qp6fn]

Indeed, you know now that I think about it, a lot of character driven plots have the element of "idiot plot." It's funny how in literature class we end up agreeing this could have all been prevented if one of the involved parties were able to just be honest about something.

[@nardoritardeau2291]

@@msk-qp6fn true, but I think we should humble ourselves and try to see the idiot plots in our own lives. It's very easy as a book reader to say "silly character, you should have just faced the very thing you were most afraid of facing!", as if we dont avoid facing our own fears and responsibilities. (I'm not trying to attack you here, I'm just saying that in my experience people tend to do this.) These character driven idiot plots are some of the best allegories for individual human lives. Some people live a tragedy, some a comedy, and in many cases it's up to us to determine that. Like in Pride and Prejudice, i think it's so relatable because we've all been somewhere similar, trusting the wrong person against our better judgement or being too proud to admit we were harsh. On another note, I find Jane Austen to be a really excellent writer of deeply human characters, accurately expressing how certain people behave in certain situations, even her side characters. She seemed to understand people really well.

[@FenrirInFlowers]

Persuasion is another Austen story that is a phenomenal example of an idiot plot done right. Anne refused Wentworth's offer of marriage when he went away to make his fortune with the navy, because her surrogate mother persuaded her of the very rational dangers of what would happen if she married him and he died leaving her penniless after severing her connections. She never gets over her feelings for him though, so when he returns a successful captain nine years later she feels she has no right to expect his forgiveness let alone his love. Wentworth is still angry, hurt, and in love with her too. He's already been rejected by her once, so he reasonably believes that she didn't really love him but was fickle and concerned with fortune and title like her father and sisters are. They are constrained in their ability to talk not just by their social circles but by the very thing they need to discuss being so incredibly painful and their fears of being hurt again. So they dance around it, trying to observe one another to make sense of things from a distance while assuming it's over. Their insecurities and assumptions are natural as they fumble around. Ultimately, they each fall further back in love until finally they take the leap to confront their fear and confess their feelings.

[@Jack-kx5rf]

Yes but those books are old and use the social climate they are set in. They just can’t go and talk to each other since they’re usually in different social standings. Darcy is a Duke and is expected to marry the daughter of another Duke, it would even be scandalous if he was to marry the daughter of a baron, which is the lowest form of the nobility. The Bennett’s family are landed gentry, they’re not nobility they’re in the middle class. The only places they’re “allowed” to talk is at large formal events or in passing, even then they’re expected to have someone escorting them. One of them couldn’t just decide to go and see the other.

[@basementdwellercosplay]

My favorite idiot plots are "the characters all share one braincell, and they either pass it along like a game of keep away or only a couple/one character use it"

[@pencils7351]

With the "only one character has the braincell" i love it when that character gives up on using the braincell, either bc they're tired or they decide "fuck it, chaos time" bc sometimes you just wanna be a chaos gremlin and i can appreciate that

[@SerDerpish]

…Drawfee?

[@maybesomeluca]

regular show

[@talis2513]

Any (well, most) chatfics, I love 'em

[@erenozgur746]

Ace Attorney in a nutshell and I absolutely adore the series. I definitely agree.

[@assassintwinat8]

"Wait, why didn't Timmy just wish his friend to safety?" "Oops. I forgot to give him back his common sense."

[@archivist_13]

That sounds like an actual Fairly Odd Parents joke

[@tomb.524]

@@archivist_13 That's because it is

[@archivist_13]

@@tomb.524 oh shit really?

[@balanc-joy9187]

@@archivist_13 It's from the episode _Emotion Commotion_ where Timmy wishes all of his emotions to be taken out, and at the very end, he's facing the bizarre scenario of needing to rescue Trixie Tang and Chester (who she's dating for revenge, but girls give him the hives) from a diabolical mastermind, and to do so has to dive into a piranha-infested lagoon and go through a maze of death traps and hazards after that to rescue them. His lack of emotions would've made it easy (no fear to make him hesitate or other emotions to get in the way of making the most logical decisions), but Cosmo gives them back right then, and he jumps, which leads to what *assassintwinat8* quoted, with Wanda asking the question of why Timmy didn't just wish things to be fixed, and Cosmo explaining what part of Timmy he didn't give back. Timmy's Common Sense then says "Whatever you do don't jump!"

[@archivist_13]

@@balanc-joy9187 lmao that's gold

[@Jane-qh2yd]

One of my favorite "idiot plot" characters has to be Jinx from Arcane. She makes probably the absolute worst decisions at every point imaginable. What makes her so great is how the authors masterfully build her path into making these bad decisions, making her one of the most sympathetic characters ever, despite how terrible her choices always are

[@kiapet286]

Half the cast from Arcane qualifies, honestly. Jayce, Vi, Heimerdinger, Ekko and plenty others all make stupid and/or unhelpful decisions that make perfect sense because of their backstories and personalities. And it's part of what makes the show great.

[@geroni211]

I think it could be argued that Jinx is overall the least idiot of them all, but since she is always being manipulated or not told crucial information, she couldn't have done better with the data she had. In contrast, almost all the other characters are either badasses that can kick everyone's asses, are the ones in control/the ones manipulating, or both. So they are bigger idiots than jinx, even if still well written idiots.

[@brittvaughn9447]

Everyone in Arcane makes choices consistent with their information and characterization. No one has an idiot ball. Vi and Jayce are idiots sometimes, but there aren't any idiot balls in play. A good example is Jayce backing down from Vi... The writers wanted a fight, but then they had to face the fact that it wasn't consistent with the characters. So they forwent the fight. And bravo to them for it.

[@wilddragonsong2994]

Honestly, all of my favorite characters are the self-destructive ones who make all the worst possible decisions and leave you wailing at the screen "CATRAA NOOOOOOO"

[@danebirbhaha7520]

It's idiotic to the viewer with all the information. But for the character it makes perfect sense to make that decision. So it's not bad writing, because the characters are not omnipotent

[@MasterChef306]

I like the point about how in good tragedies "The plot is tailor-made to the hero" - we're all a little dumb about something or another. Tragedies are relatable and sympathetic because the plot isn't "Look how stupid this character is today", it's "Look how bad things can go if someone had the Worst Day Possible for them, personally"

[@AnarchHive]

The best idiot plot is probably still in SAO abridged where two akward teens with lacking experience and skills concerning relationships play 'couple chicken' to hide their own inexperience, fears and feelings from each other and try to get the other one to slip up first to go blameless. At the very end of the episode after a small child thing got caught up in the maelstrom of their madness and presumably died, they have one of the greatest exchanges in the show that solves their relationship problem: "Do you think we got married to quickly?" "Yeah, obviously" "Yeah, me too. Do you wanna stay together anyway?" "Yeah, obviously." Yeah me too. Was that the entire conversation?" "I think it was..." "That was SO EASY!" "We are SO STUPID!"

[@OreoRanger2210]

I love that series so much

[@Superflaming85]

SAO Abridged in general is a show consisting of nothing but idiot plots, which would seem infuriating if the show didn't also hammer it home into us that every single character in the show is an idiot, including the main protagonist. (Except the show's therapist) One of Abridged!Kirito's main conclusions about the first arc of the show is that the only reason the show occurred was because the main antagonist was "Just as big a fuck-up as the rest of us."

[@ToaArcan]

WE WOULD LIKE TO BUY ONE CHILD PLEASE! The conversation that kicks off the plot of that episode is legitimately one of the funniest in the whole thing. The Left Brain/Right Brain argument is amazing writing.

[@JiroTheFro]

Oh wow I never thought of that situation like that! SAOA is one of the greatest pieces of media ever created

[@mosesmm5473]

That entire thing was a collection of idiot plots as the Moonlit Black Cats destruction was from an idiot move, the murder plot involved idiots, the quest to forge a new sword, extended because of an idiot. But all that is entertaining, the show leans into it, it never pretends like this was the only way which like a comedy, is the whole point of the humour.

[@ashfire9307]

Me: "Okay, I think I'm ready to be productive now." *New Trope-talk drops* Me: "God damn it!"

[@theworstspeedrunner]

I was watching another video damnit but had to come over here

[@xenomorphking1595]

This was me 😂

[@mananagrawal6855]

Same dude, I was doing a test review. But trope talks take precedence.

[@ccdaly2561]

I was trying to get ready for work! Still made it out the door on time, but dang

[@grantdotjpg]

You're learning, learning is productive

[@EmeralBookwise]

As an occasional fanfic connoisseur, I see this come up all the time, in both directions. Obviously, armature authors are all the more prone to having characters act in contrived ways just to facilitate a plot, however... Nearly as often (and especially in "fix-fics") an armature author will have characters act in overly rational ways that are just as unrealistic, and more to the point, boring. A story without conflict, where every problem is solved before it can even be a problem, isn't much of a story.

[@BKNeifert]

Depends on the story, or where the true plot lies. In my story, the point isn't to draw attention to a conflict between the two protagonists, but rather to watch as the whole civilization collapses around them, but they have the stability of one another to shield them from just how bad things are.

[@Jessica_Szoke]

"An armature author"

[@intellectually_lazy]

@@Jessica_Szoke armchair author

[@TheSpecialJ11]

You're describing why I love Star Trek: The Next Generation. The plots are typically setup in a way that the characters are competent, intelligent adults, yet are still struggling to solve the monster of the week problem. It feels like real adults solving real problems despite being sci-fi set hundreds of years in the future with alien species. You still have conflict without the characters being idiots to facilitate it.

[@radraccoon9489]

Since no one will tell you I will: It's spelled amateur, armature is something completely different

[@void-creature]

Arcane & Edgerunners are two recent examples of great tragedies where the fundamental flaws of the characters steer them towards their heartbreakingly foreseeable, yet technically preventable fates; Like observing the arc of a projectile and calculating its place of impact

[@thegodofalldragons]

Right on Jayce's GF.

[@Azelf221]

In Arcane’s case I’m not 100% I agree, at least for all character arcs. Jinx//vi I can forgive because they were kids who lost their family twice and the second time was accidentally “Jinx’s fault” so I can understand it going down the way it did. Jayce was an idiot, but he also went from being an inventor with no political background to being a political minister, so I can argue that he was out of his depth and couldn’t be asked to make the right decision every time especially while he’s being manipulated by everyone around him. I think the most egregious offense was silco holding the idiot ball by keeping Jinx around so long.

[@matthewmuir8884]

I can't say anything about Edgerunners since I haven't seen it, but I agree about Arcane. And it's not just their character flaws that lead them to their decisions; it's also the world that they live in. Vander's fatal flaw is his stubborn refusal to fight back against Piltover's oppression; a stubborn refusal he developed because, the last time he led a revolt against Piltover, it failed miserably and everyone got slaughtered. Meanwhile, one of Jayce's problems is that he sees himself as working-class because his family is minor nobility and he actually worked in his family's factory, and he has to repeatedly be reminded that he knows nothing about what it's actually like for the lower classes.

[@matthewmuir8884]

@@Azelf221 Silco keeping Jinx around makes perfect sense: he sees her as a daughter after empathizing with her and taking her in, and he really does love her as a father would. He knows what it's like to feel betrayed and abandoned by someone he saw as family, so he would never do that to Jinx. As he himself muses when he finally realizes why Vander gave up fighting: "Is there anything so undoing as a daughter?"

[@nelaepowt]

Edgerunners sets it up perfectly. The main guy character (forgor his name haha) is hinted and warned over and over again to die with every single upgrade he got. But ultimately, in the end, all the strength he built up was for Lucy, saving her as well as making her dream of going to the moon come true.

[@cookiebombcasualemail5284]

When I was a kid I swear these were in so many shows in my formative years that I less learned about the moral lesson and more that I can never trust anyone to take what I say unless I describe it in the most literal and specific way possible.

[@nionashborn7626]

Yeah, the number one lesson I took from my childhood, was never make a promise before you hear the conditions in case you're talking to a fairy.

[@candiman4243]

Well in real life, even if you do that there will still be people who misinterpret what you say

[@Lark88]

Same. As an adult, I have a tendency to over-explain myself now.

[@forgethought8174]

We also call this "learning about human nature by working retail." It's a much quicker and much worse to learn that exact same lesson.

[@profmalicious]

For a while as a kid I became convinced that unless someone was actually looking at the object I was asking about, they would inevitably think I was talking about something else. This came from seeing one two many cartoons where this kind of misunderstanding happened. Turns out it's not entirely a hard and fast rule.

[@BLZ231]

Unfortunately it’s become rather clear that all of us are living inside an idiot plot, which is extremely frustrating. I hope we get better writers soon.

[@games_on_phone89]

a TRAGIC idiot plot, not an ACCIDENTAL one

[@KopperNeoman]

With how the World Economic Forum continuly boast about their nefarious Bond villain plans, never again shall ye doubt the realism of the monologuing villain or the apathetic masses.

[@nathanjereb9944]

My 5 step plan to fix the world: 1. Find the protagonist 2. Kill said protagonist 3. Break 4th wall 4. Have a little "chat" to the writers 5. World saved

[@BLZ231]

@@nathanjereb9944 My 3 step plan for fixing the world: 1. Get a death note. 2. Get a comprehensive list of every person with a net worth equal to or greater than $100 million. 3. Rest and watch the sun rise on a grateful world. I know it wouldn’t solve every problem, but I think it would solve most of them, directly or indirectly. After all, it would result in ACTUAL trickle down economics.

[@Rorschach003]

That's assuming we're living in a franchise owned by a studio, not a one-off novel

[@juniperrodley9843]

One of my favorite things about the manga _Kaguya-sama: Love is War_ is that it's essentially a satire of idiot plots. It's a whole intricately crafted, *masterfully* written series and 50% of that is just showing how much you need to go through to justify an idiot plot.

[@jodieg6318]

In the case of the Batman V Superman idiot ball, the only reason I think it really exists is because Frank Miller thought Batman and Superman shouldn't be friends and DCEU hasn't figured out there are more than 3 Batman stories other than Dark Knight Strikes Again, The Killing Joke and The Long Halloween but that's all a different argument.

[@louisduarte8763]

To Be Fair, The Long Halloween is awesome.

[@Queldan]

I am reminded of the end of the first arc of Sword Art Online Abridged. The original ending was painful as the villain stated he had *forgotten* why he had sent thousands of people in a game of life and death. The abridged version instead gave a good example of idiot plot: the villain had spent so long sleepless that he panicked and went with his first idea. When he's called out by the heroine that there was a much simpler solution, his answer, paraphrased: "The problem with that, is that it was a great idea that I wish I had!"

[@animeotaku307]

The overall theme of SAO Abridged looks to be “every person ever is kind of a dumbass. Yes, even you.” Just in how every plot in the story revolves around people making dumb decisions either due to stress, miscommunication, overthinking, Pride, or a desperate desire to put out the raging dumpster fire while grabbing gasoline instead of water.

[@SydCar]

The Kayaba forgot why he started the death game is a misinterpretation of what he was actually saying. Kayaba’s goal was to create a world that exceeded the real world’s rules and limitations. He was a video game nerd who wanted more than reality could offer. He’s like Kirito. Reality wasn’t a world he was especially attached to. The virtual world was more appealing to them both. When he first traps the players in the game, he explicitly tells them that his reason is to become part of a new world that he created. His goal was Aincrad. The reason it’s a death game is because death is what gives life meaning, and he felt it was necessary to make Aincrad real. What Kayaba was saying he forgot was the origin of his dream. When did he become obsessed with Aincrad, the Floating Castle. The idea consumed his life that he doesn’t know or care where it came from, just that it’s there and he can’t get rid of it.

[@coyraig8332]

@@SydCar I knew it was supposed to be poetic. Making the meaninglessness the whole point. Edit because linguistic ambiguity: I guessed right!

[@emblemblade9245]

@@SydCar That’s rather interesting actually.

[@nonamebecausewhy473]

To be honest, I think a good part of people misinterpreting Kayaba's "I've forgotten" is that he actually said (as far as I remember) that "there were times when he couldn't remember it himself", which does NOT mean that he absolutely can't remember - which is highlighted by the fact that he IMMEDIATELY proceeded to point out his motivation. So, yeah... People were just not listening to the end...

[@fawkspotter9884]

The plot that happens when people catch "the dumb" Truly a tragedy. 😔

[@ComissarYarrick]

If 2020 told us anything, "the dumb" is more virulent and contagoius than any covid ever will be

[@Cakekreidler]

That's what makes a comedy. :^)

[@1224chrisng]

apparently The Dumb can be spread through TV screens, so cases spike every time a politician shows up

[@Bladez10]

Or they took their stupid pills.

[@footlong7980]

@@Cakekreidler it's a tragicomedy :D

[@YeAuldGrump]

Nice reference to The Fool tarot card. :) One of the things that I really liked about Gargoyles was how Xanatos AVOIDED being stupid - running his cunning plans past his people, then listening when they pointed out flaws.

[@archivist_13]

Where was the reference

[@solaria9]

@@archivist_13 1:07

[@arturoaguilar6002]

The funny thing is that The Fool doesn't represent stupidity, but lack of experience; except when its reversed (but probably the cut would had been too deep if they had drawn it upside down)

[@intellectually_lazy]

i saw that too

[@intellectually_lazy]

@@arturoaguilar6002 the fool represents a lot of things

[@withboldentreaty]

I think my favorite Idiot Plots are all in terrible slasher movies. "Don't go upstairs! Don't hide in the closet! You're such an idiot!" shouted at a screen with relish will always be one of my favorite watching experiences. It's an Idiot Plot we all want to happen--not just believe or accept.

[@bitnewt]

In slasher films, the question which keeps us engaged isn't so much whether every character in the cast (except the final girl) is going to die horribly, but when and how. How well the murders are contrived can make it a better or scarier film, but the bad ones can still be fun!

[@marcosdheleno]

it makes sense for us to call them idiots. but what they do, is the most realistic response. remember, when in panic, people wont think straight, they will do what "feels right" at that moment. alot of people will stare at a car coming in their direction, or run in a straight line. because their brain will "malfunction" when put in that moment. its similar to how soldiers have to be trained to kill, because our natural instinct will force us to flee or even miss on purpose.

[@bitnewt]

@@marcosdheleno I agree, except I'm pretty sure the reason soldiers have to be taught to kill is because of empathy, not exclusively fear. Some people's fight response will let them defend themselves when they're afraid but most people would rather flee or miss than kill in cold blood.

[@marcosdheleno]

@@bitnewt its not just empathy, most humans do not like conflict. we do it to survive, but most of us dont handle the pressure of killing, or be killed well.

[@pisscvre69]

i hate this about horror in general especially cuz there's no shortage of mistakes that make sense to make cuz of fear but they always find the one mistake that's to dumb to be cuz fear its just them being beyond stupid

[@ibrahimtuna375]

0:44 I love how there is "Eat a Snickers" solution at the plot solution list.

[@bluesbest1]

"You get a little stupid when you're hungry."

[@connorscorner443]

"You're not you when you're hungry"

[@alanbear6505]

How many hero fights start because someone is just hangry?

[@changvasejarik62]

Cool, also when did KZbin get a zoom feature?

[@daviddaugherty2816]

The last thing you want when you're dealing with weird, dumb stuff is to suddenly turn into Betty White.

[@purplehaze2358]

As of late, I legitimately feel like real life is an idiot plot where I'm also one of the idiots.

[@theradionicrevival8068]

Everyone is, the big trick writing wise is to just make the characters actions understandable but not always reasonable or excusable If you know how their internal clock runs, it makes understanding the choices they make in context make a lot more sense (even if it doesn’t always end well)

[@IndigoWhiskey]

welcome to self awareness

[@absoul112]

Aren't we all?

[@purplehaze2358]

@@IndigoWhiskey I always knew I was an idiot, it's the extent to which others are that surprised me.

[@Bluecho4]

That's human psychology, baby. Our brains are fundamentally limited machines, doing their best to keep us alive in a world that is infinitely complex and that changes in ways evolution never prepared us for. We develop Schema to understand the world, but these are formed by our lived experiences, not any kind of objective truth. A very "good enough" approach to grasping truth. Moreover, once we develop a Schema, it's disadvantageous to go changing it all the time, so we form cognitive biases to determine what we need to edit about our understanding and what we can "safely" rationalize away. We were created to survive in the wilderness, where calories are limited and thus thinking is expensive. Our bodies are misers for energy, by design, and this hasn't changed in our modern time of relative plenty. Our thought processes are inherently subjective, and there are many messy aspects of our desires and feelings that don't care about logic. Things like "it would be too psychologically painful to acknowledge I was wrong or that I'm not as smart as I thought I was, so I simply won't". Sometimes, people don't consciously think about what they're doing or why. But since we're wired to assume we're doing the right thing, by default, we'll grasp at anything to provide post-facto rationalization for actions and beliefs that are, in truth, fundamentally irrational. All of this not even getting into the fact that people can lie. Or perpetuate untruths because we believe or _want_ them to be true. Much of our society, nations, culture, and economy are built on many layers of fictions, willing or unwilling. Money, Gender, Nationality, Race, etc are all constructs. Only real because we make them real.

[@soidz4569]

It's great that you noted this trope as something that isn't necessarily bad, as comedies thrive off of this trope.

[@animeotaku307]

Tragedies, too

[@iantaakalla8180]

Explains why tragicomedies are increasingly common. They both share the commonality of people being themselves leading to horrible outcomes, thus Breaking Bad.

[@ianhowick]

"Evil always wins over Good because Good is Dumb" -Lord Helmet

[@spacecat_scribbles]

I think a case could be made for the One Ring being an idiot ball-esque plot device done well. A huge part of its thing is that it corrupts people and makes them super irrational, so when Boromir - a guy who's consistently been shown to Care a Whole Lot about protecting people, especially those weaker than him - tries to take it from Frodo there _is_ a layer of "nooo why would you do this, it's objectively a stupid choice and you're not stupid" but there's also the layer of "oh of _course_ the guy who came north _begging_ for help for his people because he's _so damn tired of fighting an impossible foe alone_ would be the one who would desperately grasp for anything he thought might make them stronger" The Ring makes people act out of character because that's _its_ character and I think that's neat Edit: to clarify, I do not think that the Ring is *actually* an idiot ball! I think that the effects it causes are *similar* to the idiot ball. Apologies for my vague wording 😅

[@albertonishiyama1980]

Another fun way to use the idiot Ball is making the characters actually became "dumb" from overthinking or over specialization. Making the characters rethink all of their methods and finding something else to work with. Super Sentai series does this quite frequently and well, since having five to six (or even more, nowadays) different angles to tackle the situations give a lot of diverse answers for the "what you do when your go-to sollution fails miserably" question, and a lot of "go-to sollutions" to take away.

[@alexiscanfield3473]

I don't think it is, though I can see how you'd draw that conclusion from the name and brief description. The problem is, the "idiot ball" is a euphemism to explain the phenomena, and not an actual in universe item that a character picks up. An idiot ball plot happens when an otherwise reasonable and intelligent character suddenly, and completely without provocation or reason, behaves in a way that is antithetical to their supposed reasonable and intelligent nature. It most often occurs in serialized media or longer novels, where you have enough time to flesh out characters and for people to get a reallly good feel for who that character is, and then, suddenly, only because the writer needs something to happen, the character doesn't behave the way they'd normally behave. For instance, if your character who is shown to be a skilled hacker, programmer, and engineer type suddenly doesn't think to use any of that expertise when they run into an electronic lock. Or if your character who is the straight man (so to speak) to a slapstick level crew of pirates, as well as being depicted as incredibly horny for money, suddenly trusts the weakest, most untrustworthy member of that crew with a fortune after they already nearly lost it to thieves once. Its in these moments that you can tell an author needed a thing to happen, so instead of making a good way for it to happen, they went the way that made a character dumb for the plot.

[@calsalitra4689]

I would disagree on this front. The One Ring, from the start of the narrative, is described as a corruptive force that will eventually corrupt anything, and thanks to the Ringwraiths all being Humans we know that Humans are particularly susceptible to its effects. We also know from Gollum that Hobbits are particularly resistant to its effects. Frodo himself is shown struggling to resist the will of the Ring when it exerts its will, and he's a humble Hobbit who just wants to see the world. Boromir is a Human, an ambitious warrior who dreams of glory in battle, and who *immediately* suggests using the Ring against Mordor. Boromir never stood a chance against the Ring, so his fall is an inevitability.

[@voodoodummie]

to me there seems to be the same induced idiocy as rat race. Tell some decent people that there is a huge reward just a little bit away, that it is a very temporary window, and that people compete to take it first. Then a whole slew of biases take over and the person acts with emotion instead of logic.

[@spacecat_scribbles]

@@alexiscanfield3473 oh yeah I agree on this front! I definitely don't think it's a true example of the idiot ball phenomenon, only that its corruptive effect produces similar consequences of "this was a really bad/stupid/out of character choice" and I think that it's an interesting parallel My bad for wording it kind of vaguely 😅

[@galenwilds3273]

There's an anime called Baka and Test where the brief summary of the setup is that everyone's entrance exams determine where they end up in the school hierarchy. The A students get private valets and professional tutors while the F students get a broken down shack with orange crates to use as desks. The only way to move up the hierarchy is to beat another class in a test-based challenge (which can also take the form of a cool fight scene due to anime shenanigans, because of course it can, but that's not relevant here). Our heroes are the F students and the first main arc follows their attempts to challenge the A students in order to improve their conditions. The show casts them as the plucky underdogs trying to fight back against the system, but I found it hard to sympathize because the show also makes it very clear that, with a few exceptions (which doesn't include the MC), class F is all the screw-ups, slackers, and washouts that brought this upon themselves. Regardless, they come up with an elaborate plan that amounts to "make sure our opponent is this specific A student, then make sure the test is 100 kindergarten-level questions since that student always gets this one specific question wrong, allowing us to beat her 99 with an easy 100". Sure enough they get it all set up, and at the end of the quiz her score comes up as 99. Class F starts to cheer, as their champion's score comes up....68. And just like that everything clicked into place as I realized "oh, that's right, they're all idiots" and had much more fun with the show going forward as I watched all their plans continue to hilariously fail due to them being their own worst enemies. Long story short, it's a show that became vastly better when I realized that the plots were all going to be idiot plots, and that was the point.

[@archivist_13]

Sounds interesting, I'll have to watch it

[@otherlego]

Oo I think I’m gonna like this show

[@kjj26k]

Sounds like fun comedy...and icky social commentary? I'll have to learn more.

[@SlapstickGenius23]

The light novels that the anime was based on are perhaps even better.

[@advanceringnewholder]

that anime is legendary. it is worth a watch.

[@notoriousgoblin83]

So many plots hinge on the fact that the mentor apparently cannot say the crucial secret to defeating the big bad until the blood in his body is measured in deciliters.

[@Master0Chef]

I loved the young justice subversion of this trope when all the blackmailed characters did in fact open up and turned the tables on the villains

[@blacademics]

I’m so glad No Way Home was highlighted. I remember watching it with my family and they said “soooo sad.” And I simply said “this entire plot relies on Peter Parker continuously making the worst choices against everyone’s advice. He’s then surprised pikachu face.”

[@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec]

Not really? The whole thing could have ended earlier if Peter had told the MIT lady that he is a part time hero under supervise by Tony Stark and SHIELD

[@bluesbest1]

It never occurred to him that "Doctor" Strange really is a doctor, with a medical degree, that required him getting into a university. Of course, Strange never actually explained to him what spell he was in the middle of casting and getting him to think it through first.

[@devildham]

.....that's like....EVERY Spider-man comic

[@blacademics]

@@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec no I mean for him getting deleted. Messing with the casting, risking the universe to reform people he has no responsibility for (his aunt died).

[@cooldes4593]

This is the perfect computational logic machine argument. Spiderman is supposed to be a dumb teen with near zero wisdom

[@MM-xn6tn]

I still remember, the first time I watched Arcane, how relieved I was when, in the first episode, the writers subverted the, 'Only Hearing Part of the Conversation,' trope; or how Mel was still willing to hear Jayce explain why he suddenly left her after they slept together.

[@derpymule7977]

I think that was the moment I realised Arcane was going to be a show I really enjoyed. I went into it incredibly sceptical, but the second I saw that I thought “oh thank god, a show is actually going to make sense for once.”

[@graceohanrahan2865]

Arcane is so good because all of conflict comes out of who the characters fundamentally are and you find that you can't really damn any of them for their actions. Are some things misinterpreted? Yeah, but it makes sense for that character to misinterpret that event in that way. It really gives you a feeling that there was no other way this story could've gone. It's brilliant

[@fieldrequired283]

Everyone in Arcane is really trying their damndest, and it just keeps not being good enough.

[@pRahvi0]

@@fieldrequired283 Yeah, most of the things would've been solved with good communication. Too bad none of them was good at communication. Actually, those whom it hinged on the most where pretty terrible with words. But right in character with it.

[@fieldrequired283]

@@pRahvi0 Jayce and Viktor and Donger (and Silco, for that matter) all have problems they can't trivially talk their way out of, even if they sat down and tried. The main conflict between Vi and Powder probably could have been resolved if they had a few chances to just talk it out, but like you said, neither of them are good with words, and circumstances really contrived to keep them from having any quiet moments together. Their individual flaws, together with their cruel circumstances, make their difficulties completely understandable.

[@afkathisguy]

"Whenever I'm about to do something, I think 'Would an idiot do that?' And if they would, I do not do that thing." -Dwight Schrute

[@ZeroLeviathan7]

I had a script for a task due really soon that I hadn’t worked on at all so I watched trope talks for half an hour and by the end I had so many sarcastic script ideas. I then proceeded to go god mode and write the entire script in an hour. Thank you for assisting me with your rapid-fire snark.

[@MiriamEttrick]

One of my favourite writers of romances made a point that she never writes a plot where the romantic problems could be solved by the two characters actually talking to each other. Makes you realise quite how many romances that doesn't apply to.

[@cubescihist6737]

Well, there are many real life relationships that could have gone better if they just talked to each other. Nothing unrealistic about an idiot plot in romance!

[@patrickhector]

​@@cubescihist6737realistic =\= not frustrating

[@peggedyourdad9560]

@@patrickhector Sometimes it's frustrating because it's realistic lol.

[@adamguthrey6160]

PLEASE tell me who this author is! i swear I will read as many of their books as I can

[@Amy_the_Lizard]

I'm okay with problems that can be solved by characters talking to each other if the writer successfully convinces me that it would be unreasonable for them to do so in this specific situation. It's very hard to do that in the first place, and even when it does work it generally won't work for very long until I expect the couple to find some other way of working it out, and I start getting irritated. It should also be noted that I strongly dislike romantic drama, especially petty romantic drama, and that romance is kind of a hard sell for me to begin with, as it's hard to get me genuinely invested in a romantic subplot to begin with.

[@javaks]

"Drop in a little forced conflict and let them fight over a shared love interest..." A LOVE TRIANGLE!

[@gregorde]

I got that reference!

[@javaks]

Bet you all read that in Jeff's voice too!

[@CAP198462]

Tee Double yew ae, a terrible way to write

[@dakotaharmon2825]

That is some truly Terrible Writing Advice

[@inserisciunnome]

@@dakotaharmon2825 ™

[@NeoShameMan]

As a neuro divergent, idiot plot looks very much like real life, how many times I have been scold for being clear in communication or asking for clarity.

[@smergthedargon8974]

I feel you.

[@louisduarte8763]

It's really weird if someone I ask questions to elaborate more about something (like my soon-to-be stepmom) takes it as a personal insult.

[@Lark88]

In Cabin in the Woods, there was a scene where the characters were starting to form a rational plan to get out of their situation, but then someone released a gas in the room to make them stupid.

[@cosmicspacething3474]

Cabin in the woods sounds vague, what’s it about?

[@user-lt2pd3ht6b]

@@cosmicspacething3474 Well ya see, there's this cabin, it's in the woods.

[@cheeseburgerowl937]

@@cosmicspacething3474 It’s a parody of horror movies, where characters are unwittingly placed in a cliche horror movie scenario and struggle to escape and discover why this program exists.

[@boobah5643]

@@cosmicspacething3474 "If all these stock horror movie tropes were real, why would that be the case?" It doesn't really make a good case for many of them, they're the rules because they're the rules, but it's utterly unclear how 'the rules' were discovered, and considering the consequences they claim for not following them, trial-and-error seem unlikely.

[@cosmicspacething3474]

I looked it up, it sounds great, and makes sense, but the ancient gods are the most convoluted part of it all. What do they even plan to do once the world ends?

[@funkkymonkey6924]

Favorite idiot moment in Shakespeare: Titus Andronicus, one guy falls on a hole and needs to get out; to get him out his friend jumps in the hole. Both men are now stuck in a hole.

[@skyblade7438]

The average D&D party.

[@intellectually_lazy]

i think i saw the same thing with a roof on beavis and butthead just the other day, basically

[@mojavefry2617]

Superman: You don’t understand! You have to listen to me! Please, hear me out! (Extends Hand rather than knocks him back) Batman: (somewhat perplexed) About what? Superman: Luthor is holding my mother hostage. He’s forcing this whole situation. Batman: What? That bastard! Superman: So please, help me save her. Please help save my mother Martha. Batman: Ma-MARTHA? That was my mother’s name too! Okay, he’s going down, NOW! Superman and Batman proceed to defeat Luthor. No giant fight with Doomsday, no silly nonsense about a Kryptonite spear. Wonder Woman: … why am I here again? Aquaman, popping out of a puddle: To set up a sequel. Wonder Woman: Oh, okay.

[@ryszakowy]

superman in other media - gets weak by touching kryptonite dust snyder's superman - gets weak by kryptonite but not really becaue a goddamn kryptonite spear in his hand is held firmly also one of those stupid comics had superman simply knock away the spear...

[@augmenautus]

@Fullsound yeah it was so weird especially when wonderwoman is right there and could also use the spear to kill doomsday. Superman could have held the lasso for her while she did it.

[@willyolio9590]

Batman: super mad at superman for some reason Superman: just need to tell you my mom's being held hostage Batman: launches every weapon he has at Superman but can't even make him blink Superman: Oh I guess i have no options left other than to fight

[@luciusnguyen2449]

@@ryszakowy Batman - Lure Doomsday to the harbor to get the Kryptonite Spear Also Batman - Proceed to just stand there to watch Superman and Wonderwoman fight Doomsday while ignoring the spear

[@B.B.Digital_Forest]

So why was Wonder Woman in Shazam: Fury of the Gods? Are we expecting another WW sequel? 😛

[@alexissandren1884]

"Real stupidity beats artificiell intelligence every time." -from Hogfather by Terry Pratchett

[@egoalter1276]

Fun as that quote is, people tend to be stupid in extremely predictable ways.

[@seanmcfadden3712]

This whole trope discussion reminds me of those "How To Beat ..." videos where people look at a piece of media (typically horror), take apart the "mistakes" made by the characters, and describe "how they would act so much better". Sometimes yes, they might be able to make those smarter decisions, but often not really, because 1. They are aware of more information than the characters in question, 2. They're coming up with these solutions while not under stress and can think clearer than the characters at the time, and 3. They've already seen how it ends while the characters don't have that level of precognition. Definitely interesting to think about.

[@cam4636]

Yeah, 90% of those types of videos (or articles or other breakdowns of media) tend to be "I, the audience member, wouldn't do what they, the characters living in the world of the story, did. I am so smart and cool." I particularly 'like' it when the author/video maker is like "I would be a total stone cold badass and just shoot the ghost-alien unlike these morons who don't have a gun and don't know what kind of monster they're facing or even if it's really a monster." Yes I'm sure that's what you'd do, and without any hesitation or prior training, Jeffery; you are SO smart and SO cool.

[@seanmcfadden3712]

@@cam4636 Hahaha! Exactly! And then there's when they say something like "All these people are acting stupid..." Of course they are. They're panicking and in the middle of a crowd of other panicking people. The herd/mob instincts kick in and you follow, because that's what you, as a social species, are hard wired to do.

[@flameboi7104]

To be fair, have a gun and shoot the guy who always uses a small knife is worryingly affective against the modern horror antagonist. There is a multitude of ways to disarm a smart protagonist to make a story work. You could have them on vacation(airplanes), have them arrested, or even just have them be pacifist at the start of the story.

[@zackakai5173]

And not only that, but the purpose of every story ever isn't to resolve the plot thread in the most direct and/or logical way possible. Well written stories are almost always really about themes, characterization, or something other than just the strict A->Z sequence of events. In that context, a character doing something other than the most rational thing is totally fine provided the audience believes that character would do that thing.

[@MielTheDeerling]

There’s also the fact that in most horror mediums, the main characters are teenagers. They’re just kids going through horrific and traumatizing events, they aren’t going to react like the (mostly) adult audience members think they would

[@Loxalair]

I read a post on tumblr that said something like, if Hamlet and Macbeth had switched protagonists, there would have been no plot for either. Macbeth would have killed the evil uncle immediately and Hamlet would have hemmed and hawed so long that Duncan would have, idk, dropped dead from cancer or something. But that's the point. There's only a tragedy because these specific people have these specific flaws and they fit within the story and drive the plot. It's stupid, but it makes sense. But some authors try and put Hamlet into Macbeth and then force things so Hamlet does all the murders immediately and then it's well, that makes no sense. Hamlet doesn't do that. He procrastinates worse than an ADHD college student ten hours before the deadline Point I'm making, I think, is good video!

[@100lovenana]

That's why I have a strong belief that stories should be character driven. When a story relies only on its plot to be interesting, the characters end up being forgettable and/or awful. Having characters be well thought out and consistent can save any story even if the plot is average, because most of the major points of a plot have to happen because of the characters' actions

[@iapetusmccool]

I've heard the same said about Hamlet and Othello.

[@danielf.7151]

Red made a similar point in her tragedies video, but it was Othello and Hamlet.

[@Skallva]

That's the exact same point Red made in the TT on tragedies, actually

[@barbaros99]

@@100lovenana For a (mostly) literal examination of this, I would recommend you check out another YT creator, Jill Bearup, and her "Fantasy Heroine" series. The hook is that the author is constantly flummoxed because she has a very specific idea for how things are supposed to be done in HER story, and the heroine is having none of it. :EDIT: OH FOR....! Someone posted this right under this comment.

[@thogthemighty7960]

I think my most recent session of DnD highlights how you can make an idiot plot work. My character just murdered in cold blood an innocent (and important) person, which is going to have horrible consequences that could have been avoided had he been more rational; but this character a) thinks that killing him is the easiest way to keep him quiet about a conversation, and b) has a powerful urge to kill and destroy (powered by lots of backstory) that make him act violently at any opportunity. Combined with his need for catharsis at the time, he succumbed to his greatest flaw and made an irrational decision that will likely influence the plot going forward.

[@brittvaughn9447]

One of the many, many big reasons I'm obsessed with Arcane. No one holds an idiot ball. They might act like an idiot, but it's ALWAYS sensical and consistent. Even Vi.

[@arianae1993]

😂😂 i had to explain my grandma what an idiot plot was, because she didn't understand why the people in her telenovela weren't fixing their problem by just talking with each other and kept making dumb assumptions

[@beeaggro2593]

But that's just telenovelas. It's just Comedia del Arte but magnified

[@arianae1993]

@@beeaggro2593 yes, but my grandma was still confused that the last episode they loved each other and now they hate each other, or something like that

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

One has to imagine your grandmother likes watching idiots like how one has to imagine sysiphus likes pushing that boulder.

[@stevenjlovelace]

I remember that Mike Judge said that, writing Beavis & Butt-Head, he has to remember that the characters aren't going to do anything to intentionally get themselves out of a bad situation, since they're idiots. The fun part is when they succeed despite their complete obliviousness.

[@KopperNeoman]

I'm glad the new B&B remembered that. They heard "white privilege" and actually thought they were privileged for being white. Literally EVERYONE else understands that it's akin to Jewish privilege or Tutsi privilege - socialist doublespeak to justify institutional racism... but not those two.

[@RealRaven6229]

Can you do an episode on evil clones? It seems like a lot of potential, between "fighting yourself but stronger" or "facing your dark side" or even "evil clone takes place of the hero."

[@ShanaReviews]

If No Way Home is being used for the idiot ball moment, th only part I feel was dumb was on Strange for not considering that Peter wanted some individuals to still remember him as Spider-man before it began, especially since he considered himself to be someone Peter cared about. though to give the moment a fair chance, I go with the idea that Strange just thought Peter was okay with telling his friends and loved ones who he was and didn't understand that that was something peter wouldn't want to go through again

[@Birthday888]

This. Especially since the MCU doesn't have secret identities? Like, every major superhero is pretty open with both their civilian and cape identities. I'm not sure why No Way Home was used as the example. And like, Strange is the guy who found a spell to control time in a book, and tried it out just to see if he could. And the ending of his first film specifically endorses his use of such dangerous spells. So I'm not sure why Red used the scene of him tricking Dormamu as the reference for "Strange should know better".

[@JamesSchulte]

Strange absolutely qualifies. After getting a 'pretty please?' from Peter after chatting for about 10 minutes he immediately decides to erase an ultra specific memory from everyone in the entire world using a spell where if it goes wrong it could destroy the universe and only after the spell does go wrong he decides to tell Peter something that could've ended the movie if both weren't idiots in this moment

[@coolgreenbug7551]

Peter's idiocy makes sense because he's a high schooler looking for an easy out of a bad situation. Strange's idiocy is total nonsense for him being the future seer and master planner he was in infinity game.

[@IndigoWhiskey]

strange is an interesting example of what happens to a character you can't nerf (due to 5th wall limitations like wolverine never going out of print) once the power creep maxes out the writer doesn't feel like they can challenge them effectively anymore and the conflict will shift to the people around them with the original overpowered character being relegated to world maguffin as you only bring strange in when you basically have to rewrite everything to put the pieces of the world back. once a character has had their maguffin moment of being the get out of jail free card, they will inevitably get used as the reason for a conflict later in order to both remove the "just call strange" get out of jail free card and to serve as a handy powerful thing to upset a status quo in order to write a story inside that conflict. thats why the most rediculously overpowered people are medium savvy enough to stay the hell away from the plot.

[@Birthday888]

@@IndigoWhiskey ....? No? Your argument would render most of the DCverse pointless with Superman. And Strange has a better excuse given that he typically deals with extra-dimensional threats, so it makes sense that he doesn't really have the time to devote to stuff that other heroes could potentially handle. If you want to use an example, you'd be better off using Scarlet Witch.

[@kalahne]

I remember being so mad reading Othello because if he just /talked/ to his literal /WIFE/ none of that nonsense would've happened. I was so irritated with the idea that for some reason, you wouldn't go to the one person you pledged to love and trust more than anyone else and do exactly that. But it's cool to think that if I was in my own idiot plot, that would probably be the very issue. I'd be too trusting to the point of naivete or manipulation and that's where all the problems would come in. It's nice to see how any character could be in an idiot plot if it was written to their weaknesses instead of their strengths. That validates the idea of this kind of story for me.

[@julietfischer5056]

Othello is a Moor in Venice. A dark-skinned Muslim. An excellent leader against the enemies of Venice, but as alien as a Martian to them and well aware that he was not truly a part of their society. He loved Desdemona, but did he feel worthy of her? Was he sure she truly loved him, that their match wasn't political? Iago was his trusted subordinate--and a complete asshole who decided to wreck his life in revenge for not getting a promotion.

[@artemiswolf4508]

I’ve heard it be said that if Othello and Hamlet changed stories then they would both have happy endings. Hamlet wouldn’t have trusted Iago so easily and would have tried talking with Desdemona and his friend. Othello on the other hand would have murder the king as soon as his father’s spirit told him too.

[@runtergerutscht4401]

Another example is Faust, where he actually monologues about having a feeling that continuing to romance Margaret would doom her because he has a deal with the literal devil, but does it anyways despite the obvious signs and the entire christian faith warning of trusting the devil because he's in love. He actively dooms her because he's in love. Goethe was an asshole, but he was a great writer

[@k.5425]

@@artemiswolf4508 yh, Red has mentioned this in one of her videos.

[@k.5425]

Same here. Had to read Othello for school. It always frustrated me. But as it's been said before and you've more or less explained, the plot leans in his weakness.

[@mikeym1121]

The fight between Homura and Mami in Madoka Magica rebellion is actually a good look into miscommunication trope being successful. Both don’t understand each other’s motives because neither trusts the other to share what they know, yet they are friends who fought along side each other.

[@skazwolfman8622]

It helps that, due to Homura's time-looping and remembering the previous world, there's a major imbalance of experience between the two. Homura knows a lot more about Mami than Mami knows about Homura, and Mami doesn't know how much Homura knows about her. Specifically, Homura learned early on what kind of person Mami becomes when her world is flipped upside down, and Mami not only doesn't know that Homura knows that, she doesn't even know what Homura knows about her because the Mami that fought Homura in Rebellion never had that experience. Homura knows that Mami isn't as stable as she or anyone else thinks she is, so she can't bring herself to entrust Mami with too much information that might run the risk of breaking her, and because there's no good way for Homura to explain that to her, Mami naturally finds her incredibly suspicious and untrustworthy. And that very simple, self-sustaining impasse is why every interaction between the two of them turns out the way it does and DAMN IT DO I LOVE AN ACTUALLY WELL-WRITTEN TIME TRAVEL STORY! Madoka Magica is one of my favorite stories in anime, so hyped for the new movie :D

[@orrorsaness5942]

@@skazwolfman8622 Facts

[@Spectacular_Insanity]

I just recently got into Madoka and I have to say, that every deconstruction of common tropes that the show does is brilliant. I never expected it, honestly. It was one of my best surprises of this year. I had heard about it, but I hadn't had time before. I'm really glad I gave it a chance.

[@beeaggro2593]

@@Spectacular_Insanity It's pretty much the gold standard on how to write a deconstruction

[@jordandwiggins1026]

Rebellion is so damn good. God I can’t wait for the new movie

[@floricel_112]

Another idiot plot I'd like to talk about is from Shadow the hedgehog (2005). In it, at one point Shadow discovers Eggman built an entire robot army in Shadow's likeness, and for the rest of that particular branching path Shadow ponders and broods over whether he too is one of those creations or not and it really bothers him. But I'm sitting here like "just poke yourself with a needle! If you bleed, then congrats, you're the real deal. If not, there's your answer. This is not as big of a deal/mystery as they make it seem"

[@SpottedHares]

I’m thinking to the Stargate episode where SG1 had robot double that went bank and Jake just grabbed a knife and started cutting open his arm to check if he was the robot or the flesh version. It took seconds for him to check as soon as the implication were known. The one good thing I’ll say about west world is having the host mimics not just the external but internal parts of humans helped in coving how some people never tested if they were hosts.

[@GrosvnerMcaffrey]

To be fair android replicants can bleed so that's not quite conclusive

[@floricel_112]

@@GrosvnerMcaffrey there aren't any replicant type of robots in Sonic. Robots in Sonic are either obviously robotic or mimic the looks of an organic creature (Shadow androids being the ONLY example) but are otherwise completely robotic in behaviour: beep boop, tacit, accomplish mission and all that

[@GrosvnerMcaffrey]

@floricel_112 never the less if the shadow ones have an organic outside they can have some kind of mock fluid

[@floricel_112]

@@GrosvnerMcaffrey it's not an "organic outside", it's a fake synthetic skin or whatever. Probably not even that and it's just a coat of paint. Point is, the Sonic series isn't that thorough or has the foresight (however you wanna put it) to have robots that mimic organic functions like fake skin, fake organs or fake blood. Eggman doesn't build them like that (again, either) and neither have there been any robots like that from other parties

[@blainewheaton9679]

For the accident idiot plot, something I’ve seen in webserials, where the chapters come out one at a time, the characters will sometimes do something stupid then realize the important thing they’ve been forgetting because the audience has pointed it out. It always makes me chuckle when the author lampshades it a bit, like we’re all in on the joke now

[@ikebirchum6591]

My favorite accidental idiot plot is The Whisperer in Darkness by H. P. Lovecraft. Main character Wilmarth has been receiving letters from his friend Akeley about the alien cryptids that Akeley has been trying to find proof of in rural Vermont. As Akeley gathers more and more evidence of the aliens, he suspects that they're going to kill him, and his letters get more and more panicked. Until one day, Wilmarth receives a letter that more or less reads like "Dear Wilmarth, So the aliens came and talked to me and they're actually really nice and want to take both of us on a super cool tour of the universe. All you have to do is show up at my isolated cabin in the middle of the night, bring all copies of the evidence I sent you, and tell no one about any of this or where you're going. Don't worry, this is definitely not a trap. Also you may be wondering why this letter was written with a typewriter when all my previous letters were handwritten, well that's because I unfortunately broke my writing hand in a completely unrelated incident. Have I mentioned how much this isn't a trap? With love, Definitely The Real Akeley And Not An Alien In Disguise" And Wilmarth is like "this is the most legit thing I've ever read in my life" and follows the instructions, obliviously dodging all of the aliens' traps through pure luck. He only realizes something is wrong when, after talking to what is very obviously Akeley's corpse being "Weekend At Bernie's"-ed by an alien, he spends the night at Akeley's house and overhears aliens through his door loudly discussing the best way to murder him. This is treated by the story as a serious and horrifying revelation. He then jumps out the bedroom window and escapes. It's stupid and hilarious and I love it.

[@josephperez2004]

I have not idea if this was meant to be a comedy, but honestly it sounds darkly hilarious.

[@galaxystudios370]

Ladies and gentlemen, Hippo Potamus Lovecraft.

[@franklin5ify]

Wow, apparently Red woke up and chose violence today.

[@Lionstar16]

Doesn't she choose that most every days 😅?

[@minasthirith6314]

@@Lionstar16 Why do you think she's Red?

[@b_e_p_i_s_m_a_n6212]

Thanks for pointing out that characters acting dumb isn't necessarily bad writing. I keep seeing this take online about plots being resolved if everyone just talked things out and how frustrating it is when, oftentimes, that is very much the point. Besides, it's not like real life human beings perfectly communicate themselves 100% of the time anyways.

[@Mr.Brothybear]

Reminds me of how Luke was treated in the Sequel trilogy of movies he whole-heartedly believed there still to be Good in Dart Vader despite everything and didnt give up on that and then Kylo shows a bit of darkness and Luke wakes and chooses Murder

[@intellectually_lazy]

i never liked that guy. never liked any of them

[@SpottedHares]

So he went from an idiot that bet everything on an unfounded gut feeling… to betting everything on an unfounded gut feeling. So in now way did Luke change.

[@iantaakalla8180]

He went from an idiot that was too idealistic to an idiot that went against his previous compunctions. That is why many take umbrage over Luke’s attempted killing of Ben.

[@michaelyoung7261]

Red mentioning the Idiot Ball first made me think of a classical dance ball, and I was rather intrigued. And then after the explanation I wanted a story where the Idiot Ball was an actual physical McGuffin within the story.

[@barbaros99]

I mean, your first interpretation could work just as well. Imagine the Idiot Ball as an actual dancer at an actual ball, swapping from partner to partner depending on who needs to be stupid at that moment.

[@josephperez2004]

Not exactly an Idiot Ball, but the Light Grenade is an item from 'Mom and Dad Save the World' that is a literal dumb weapon that would only work on idiots. Luckily, the setting its from is full of it.

[@natalie7851]

technically, this is the plot of lord of the rings

[@josephperez2004]

@@natalie7851 Oh damn, that's right. The One Ring is a literal Plot Device and a physical Idiot Ball that makes pretty much anyone who picks it up makes incredibly stupid choices.

[@flipflopzthreeonethree1873]

The thing with the Idiot Ball McGuffin is as soon as someone gets it, they do the stupidest thing possible. Probably eat it.

[@pythox2948]

“Other Ways” 0:48 -Tell the Honest Truth -Call the Authorities -Trust that your Trusted Friend is being Honest -Wait Five Minutes and Reassess -Explain the Miscommunication (even if it’s awkward) -Get a Second Opinion -Confirm that you’re talking about the same thing -Eat a Snickers -Say Your Plan Out Loud and See if it Holds Up -Ask Follow-Up Questions -Don’t Assume Malice when Ignorance Also Explains It -Occam’s Razor in General -Follow Quarantine Protocol

[@pRahvi0]

#11 (malice vs. ignorance) is my favourite argument against conspiracy theories: They are not ridiculous theories because they assume a lot of people are evil - they are ridiculous because they assume those people to be competent too.

[@keltzar1]

@@pRahvi0 Also the fact that most real life conspiracies are like, way less complicated and the info is out there, they're just perpetrated by people that are protected by the system. Like yup, Perdue Pharma did in fact just, sell opioids they shouldn't have. It wasn't a grand conspiracy to control society, they just wanted to make money and didn't care about the consequences.

[@Henle_]

Facts

[@Alias_Anybody]

@@pRahvi0 The more people you'd need to organise something the harder it is to keep it secret. At some point it becomes magnitudes less plausible than reality.

[@pRahvi0]

@@Alias_Anybody 3 people can keep a secret when 2 of them are dead and the remaining one mute.

[@avamay4224]

I read a book that had characters act completely out of character because they were possessed by demons. It worked, and it established a major conflict between the two hero camps AND got the two most powerful heroes to fight before the girl with the magic voice figured it out and performed an exorcism. The other way you can do that is by having them be a clone or imposter. It works well because the audience doesn’t know they’re possessed when they’re doing this, so you still get that element of surprise that helps make it compelling.

[@rudelwolf1591]

let me guess, heroes of olymp?

[@characookie241]

Heroes of Olympus yessss

[@avacadotoast5571]

The fact that I immediately knew which series you were talking about

[@peteryang5056]

I think an interesting recent example is Arcane, which is explicitly a story *about* how societal inequity creates mental blinders that shape the way we think and act. It's a tragic exploration of how socioeconomic inequality creates an "idiot setting" scenario that traps everyone within it. (Big ol' Arcane spoilers below.) On the one hand you have an upper class that either benefits personally from the oppression or else is too far removed to really understand it, much less do anything meaningful to address it (hi Heimerdinger). On the other hand, you have an underprivileged lower class that is rightfully angry about how they've been treated, but due to a combination of trauma, festering resentment, and lack of resources is unable to come together to create productive change by any way other than bloody revolution (hi Silco). Every character in the show is shaped by this class conflict. All in different ways, informed by their particular circumstances and life events, but in every single case it results in a myopia about the "bigger picture" that prevents the cast as a whole from turning Piltover and Zaun away from their explosive destiny. Powder embraces her "Jinx" persona because everything in her life has been screaming at her that that is *what she is,* and eventually she gives up trying to fight it after being directly responsible for killing her father figure for a second time. Jayce tries to enact change through every tool available to him except actually interacting with an Undercity resident, and by the time he does so, it's far too late. Viktor wants help the citizens of the Undercity, but the poison in his lungs from his childhood there are limiting the time he has to accomplish his dreams, thus driving him to desperate ends. And Vi, our erstwhile protagonist, who emerges from the prison seemingly unchanged from the confident badass she was as a teenager, shows that this stasis in and of itself can be toxic, as her inability to reconcile who Powder *was* with who she is now inadvertently serves as the final catalyst for her transformation into Jinx. To be clear, Arcane is *not* about the inevitability of its tragic ending, not exactly. Instead, it shows us time and time again the many tiny decision points that could have altered the outcome. What if Vi had not tried to rob Jayce's apartment? If Marcus hadn't escalated matters at Vander's bar? If Powder had not followed her siblings to Silco's lair? If Jayce had not ordered the blockade? "What could have been?" It doesn't matter, because the problem was not any one character's decision. It's the whole stupid world they live in, the broken, fundamentally unjust system that Piltover created. It was always going to end in war. Jinx just happened to be the one to pull the trigger.

[@dashvash5440]

I agree with most of this but Silco is not just a revolutionary. He has development and was well written but him pushing extremely addictive and horribly disfiguring drugs tells us enough. During the show he's a competent sociopathic crime lord who cares about his friend/enemies kid that he adopts after trying to kill her very loving father.

[@mananagrawal6855]

One of my favorite Idiot plots is the light novel 'Gamers!'. Literally everyone in the story realizes that they have a tendency to get caught up in idiot plots, and the world just works in mysterious ways to always throw them into these idiots plots. It is extremely self-aware. Their realization that they could be in an Idiot plot and somehow utilizing that realization to get them deeper into the idiot plot is one of the best things about it.

[@thegirlinthefireplace]

Oh man, I think I watched the anime of that! It was a fun watch, maybe I should check out the light novel

[@mananagrawal6855]

@@thegirlinthefireplace light novel is much better tbh. Anime is decent tho.

[@alansmithee9769]

I saw the first season of the anime. Did they ever make more?

[@bibbobella]

@@alansmithee9769 Not of the anime unfortuently. Might get another season at some point...you never know...I mean the devil is a partimer is apparently coming back so anything can happen!

[@alansmithee9769]

@@bibbobella Honestly what even is this timeline

[@DanceswithBlades5]

This reminds me that Persona 4 Arena used a little trick to avoid the idiot plot, the main villian was actively maintaining a perception filter to manipulate what each character heard the other say in order to provoke a fight and keep them from being able to talk things out, as soon as it's gone they start immediately working to bypass the rules of the main villain's tournament setup

[@Snow_Fire_Flame]

I will say that "maintaining a perception filter" is an extremely godlike power that only make sense in certain stories. If a spooky fairy tale character can do that, fine, but you run into the problem of how this doesn't lead to total mind control quite quickly in most settings if such a power isn't deeply limited.

[@DanceswithBlades5]

@@Snow_Fire_Flame Very true, but it makes sense in the context because it's a series that largely has themes about perception, and technically all the main characters are a form of psychic. Its s sneaky tactic and definitely not one to be used lightly without some good setup.

[@HoradeFidges]

Don't really know if iit counts, but I really like how persona take certain tropes and go with them, but with a twist and making complete sense. In persona 5 you get introduced later to the obviously bad guy akechi. He introduces himself as a good guy and pressures the group into working together. The heroes accept and seemengly believe his lies. The twist isnt that akechi was in fact the bad guy, but our heroes were well aware of this and planned aroung it in advance.

[@DanceswithBlades5]

@@HoradeFidges Oh yeah that one's basically a reverse idiot plot, where the heros pretend to be the ifiots in the idiot plot but actually outplayed him.

[@archivist_13]

@@HoradeFidges I especially like the twist because the way the twist is set up it implies the main character was on to him the entire time, completely recontextualizing all their previous interactions

[@orderofscribes]

Love the nod to the old sonic the hedgehog comics. Surprisingly has some really compelling writing (sometimes)

[@nuclearsimian3281]

"Characters will spend their time acting bizarrely myopic and petty." Oh wow, that's the best summarization of everything Zach Snyder's ever written.

[@thedukeofchutney468]

Why do I feel like my entire high school experience was an idiot plot? Everyone had over-the-top emotions and no one wanted to have a good old-fashioned conversation.

[@riluna3695]

In the specific case of Character vs Character battles, where the plot requires that one of them win and the other lose, there's a specific thing I like to keep in mind as I'm writing. The losing character should not lose because they didn't do their best, the winning character needs to win in spite of them doing so. Put another way: Don't hand the loser the Idiot Ball; hand the victor the Genius Ball. My favorite example of this is the time I realized that a character I needed to die for story purposes had an extremely easy way to escape and would have absolutely taken it. I started wondering what I might be able to do to eliminate that escape method, but that ended up being a case of handing him the Idiot Ball. I changed my thought process and realized that I could absolutely have him escape and make it all the way home...and the villain could still catch him even then. And this incredibly small realization blossomed into an entirely new mini-arc slightly before this scene where said villain is secretly setting up exactly the trick that will let her accomplish this feat, while also allowing for several other neat story tie-ins elsewhere in the scene, some of which even help relieve others of "idiot ball" moments later down the line. That new arc is one of my favorites in the story now, and the entire thing was formed solely from trying to resolve what was ultimately a very small and easily-missed mistake on the part of a single character. It's a very powerful tool for improving your stories :D

[@CrazyFarseer]

Very nice!

[@loadeddice4696]

You're basically describing pro wrestling - you ideally want both the winner and the loser to look good, without burying the loser or giving it to the winner on a technicality.

[@rolfs2165]

Do you publish your stories somewhere?

[@riluna3695]

@@rolfs2165 I have a DeviantArt account under the name RilunaSolaris, but it's underdeveloped. As grand as the ideas in my head are, I find it immensely difficult to get them out of my head and onto a page or a screen. Still, there are a few snippets there if you're curious.

[@jyousemorenoeng]

I remember I had a character on a story killed by a blockable or avoidable attack that the character had blocked and avoid before. Why did they die because of it in that instance? Because the attack wasn't aimed at them, but a party member, and reflexes were strong enough to make him stand in the way. He couldn't even process that he had received the attack before he died from it.

[@santiagogarza8121]

You just encapsulated the problems with GOT seasons 7 and 8 (especially 7). In the first 4 seasons, characters would be destroyed by their well established flaws (Ned's inflexibility, Rob's impulsiveness, Oberin's cockiness), in the final seasons, characters are destroyed because their IQ jus plummets (Danny kinda forgetting about the Iron Fleet, the night king not killing Arya for some reason and whatever the hell Tyrion was trying to do)

[@jasonblalock4429]

12:50 In fairness to Marvel, Endgame's Hawkeye vs Widow fight is a great example of the hero fight done very very tragically right. Also, I think the big problem with the Batman v Superman fight in general is that it had to be set up in a VERY specific way, to deal with the fact that Superman could insta-gib Batman at any time. So Superman has be deliberately holding back, which means piling on an extra level of contrivance beyond the usual hijinx needed to provoke a hero fight. In turn, this means Batman has to be utterly unreasonable to keep the fight going, which requires its own level of justification. It's pure contrivance from top to bottom, and the fight feels so hollow as a result.

[@BubblegumPatty]

The most frustrating part about Idiot plots is if the author just put in a little more elbow geese to justify them with the character's traits/flaws, motivations, circumstances, etc, they wouldn't have such a notoriously bad reputation.

[@Comicsluvr]

Agreed! I've seen and read many things that had issues that could have been fixed with just a little more effort on the creator's part.

[@jonathanshaltz7750]

Agreed. Incidentally, you made my day with your typo!

[@nardoritardeau2291]

I for one always write with elbow geese 💪🪿

[@tortis6342]

I'm sorry you you just use the phrase, "elbow geese"?

[@mellieg.7543]

@@tortis6342 Do geese technically have elbows?

[@TokenSelf]

The panel of a girl declaring "I have two personality traits!" to a gasping crowd got me 🤣.

[@heirtothethrone2133]

This was an awesome video! This was a topic that has always bothered me and when I first saw the thumbnail I was excited to see what you had to say about it. The Troupe Talks as a whole have helped develop my narrative skills. Your video on the 5 man band inspired a core group for a novel I am working on. I love this series so much! Thank you for making what you make and congratulations on both 10 years and 2 Million subscribers. You deserve more all of your success and more. Y'all are incredible. 😎🥰💜

[@macalmy6750]

This speaks to why I end up checking out on so many comedy series that start off strong. Early on the characters are idiots and wacky hijinks ensue, and that's fine for a while. But the writers have at least heard of character growth and try to convince the audience that it's happening by people "learning their lesson". But they also don't seem to know how to write comedy without people being idiots, and so the character growth disappears, sometimes as soon as the start of the next episode.

[@HeavyMetalGamingHD]

Scrubs did that so good.

[@ScooterBond1970]

We call this Aesop Amnesia.

[@yiklongtay6029]

Happened to B99. Rosa's appeal is being an unreasonably stoic and violent person and occasionally subverting it. Subverting too many times that it becomes the new standard kills a huge amount of her appeal. Same mechanics applied to Holt

[@TheGerkuman]

My general advice for people who want to do these sorts of plots is to establish that the characters have these flaws, but that certain things keep them in check, eg. their best friend, prescription medicine etc. Then, when you want the character to make the bad decision, you take away their support mechanism. The character falls into the hole, but the audience stays sympathetic to them. And then maybe, if everything eventually gets resolved, they learn they can't just rely on one thing to keep them grounded. Just an idea, anyway. There's lots of ways to do it :)

[@steampunker7]

That's a good way to play it. While one might be tempted say Tony's actions in Civil War were the results of an idiot plot, it's shown early on that he's estranged from Pepper and kind of flying without one of the few people who can even partially talk him down or reign him in when he heads off on a tangent. Steven meanwhile not only loses Carter but is so hyper focused on saving Bucky he fails to see the forest for the trees. Nat tries to step in for both, be the voice of reason but even she's conflicted on the entire matter and can't quite bridge the gap between them.

[@leithaziz2716]

Raphael from TMNT is like THE definition of this description. When things go bad for the turtles, he retaliates in the most upfront way and gets into trouble because of it. Raph makes dumb decisions BECAUSE he cares and doesn't take a breather to consider the ramifications of his actions. And while I am MCU'd out, I can't help but feel that Peter is a high-schooler with a lot of thing on his mind that are making him panic. So he wont make the most reasonable decisions. I don't know, I just feel like NWH stands out enough by the Spider-men stuff that I justify the rocky start.

[@cannotthinkofaname7904]

Just as a heads-up, the idea of having a lack of medication being the main driver, is honestly so sensitive these days that it's likely to be seen as in poor taste at best, and reinforcing harmful stereotypes and misconceptions about illnesses at worst. I would strongly urge against this.

[@fairycat23]

@@cannotthinkofaname7904 I support your comment. As someone with mental health struggles and medication because of it, and as someone who gets really annoyed when other people with mental health struggles whinge about how going on medication would "take away" something inherent about them, the only way I can imagine such a plot device working is if the lesson is "MEDICATION IS GOOD ACTUALLY AND YOU SHOULD TAKE IT IF YOU NEED IT. WHAT, DO YOU WANT TO TELL A DIABETIC THEY SHOULDN'T TAKE INSULIN? IT'S THE SAME THING YOU DINGUS." But I don't trust most people, including myself, to handle that story well enough. 😅

[@TheGerkuman]

@@cannotthinkofaname7904 I get where you're coming from, but as someone who does needs meds themselves to stay stable I think that it can be done. It just needs to be done with tact and delicacy. So, I guess, maybe not pick it unless you're going to to do it justice.

[@k.5425]

I'm so glad Red brought in Dr.strange as an idiot plot. Like seriously...he listened to some teen without going through with him the whole process and consequences etc *BEFORE* even walking into the room to begin the spell. It's *while* he's doing the spell then that Peter brings up the issues and Strange lays out the consequences and keeps changing the spell.🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

[@justifiedsmile52]

I was reading through the list of options in the "There's no other way!" and had the distinct impression of: Aren't several of these Shakespeare? I really appreciated the comedy/tragedy/accident breakdown. The moment that got me: "single whiff of critical thinking"

[@croutendo2050]

I heard somewhere once "if you could've avoided disaster it's a tragedy, if you were doomed from the start it's a comedy"

[@RmsOceanic]

For preventing the accidental idiot plot, I always like Rich Burlew of _Order of the Stick_ 's core rule for when a character is killed off: It has to be a result of their own in-character choices. Roy: Jumps onto a dragon to fight Xykon with no safe means of getting to the ground, because he's still operating on the assumption that he has to be the one to do it, rather than trust in his team. Miko: Breaks the Sapphire Gate and is killed in the explosion, because she still believed she had a unique special destiny and her first instinct must be true. Tsukiko: Reveals she knows about Redcloak's deception of Xykon to Redcloak himself, resulting in a quick disposal, because she's deluded herself about Xykon's feelings for her and how central to Redcloak's goals that deception is. Durkon: Refuses Malack's offer of safe passage from Girard's gate and they fight to the death, because of his duty to the quest and loyalty to his allies. You keep that in mind, and your audience will be sad the character made the choice, not angry at the writer for making them do it.

[@merrittanimation7721]

Or Nale, who’s so desperate to be free of his father’s influence he disregards the consequences of removing the one thing that’s stopping his father from killing him.

[@patrickfrost9405]

Redcloak is the goalie and basically carries the idiot ball back into play whenever somebody finally gets rid of it, lmao. Dude's gonna get himself disintegrated.

[@alisalevenseller2796]

What story is this?

[@josephperez2004]

@@alisalevenseller2796 Its a long running webcomic based loosely on a Fungeons and Dragons style setting. Warning, its been going on for YEARS, so if you want to read up, there is a heck of a rabbit hole.

[@boobah5643]

@@josephperez2004 Don't threaten me with a good time.

[@RVBFan182]

My favourite example of this trope is in Kamen Rider 555. The entire back half of the plot could be resolved in a single conversation, but instead of talking, the two leads decide to just escalate the conflict repeatedly.

[@famousthaneus9810]

This is probably the best video essay I've come across in months. *subscribed*

[@ivandekad7249]

Surprised they talked about the Cap and Iron Man fight in Civil War but not the far more controversial Star-Lord attacking Thanos scene from Infinity War. With the latter, previous knowledge about how impulsive Peter can be, but without it, it just looks like he was about to save the day and then immediately doomed half the universe.

[@rudelwolf1591]

especially since i think the cap and iron man fight in civil war was actuallydamn near perfect. Because of course tony stark wouldn't listen to reason in this moment, i mean, in all of his movies he is shown to not think things through, to actually getting very emotional on certain topics, and in this moment, he learns that his at that moment probably best friend dind't tell him that the guy that stands right in front of him killed his parents. At that moment, with that much rage and betrayal, of course he doesn't give a crap about anything both of those would say.

[@mattpluzhnikov519]

@@rudelwolf1591 and @Ivan Dekad, considering that the topic being discussed was how talking things out CAN solve some problems, but not ALL conflicts are based on miscommunication that can be cleared up...I took the inclusion of Civil War clips to be a way of highlighting a situation where, due to it not teeeeechnically being a problem of confusion or miscommunication, the conflict COULDN'T be defused by the clear AND reasonable attempts at appealing to logic and reason. The movie ITSELF wasn't actually discussed, but, after noting that communication CAN resolve problems, the video INSTANTLY transitioned to clips where that tactic MAY have worked...but had not been even TRIED properly. Pretty that was done to compare/contrast the two films against one another. AND, as Red quickly noted after said transition, Clark DOES make pleas to try to clear up misunderstanding, but was written to then prolong the fight, rather than to actually engage in talking sense and clarity, putting him firmly in possession of the Idiot Ball.

[@rodrigobueno8652]

@@rudelwolf1591 I would comment but you sayed everything, as red sayed accidental idiot plots are subjective and i feel some of the examples red used completely make sense to me: and the civil war was one of them (frozen the other one)

[@MrChidumebi3]

I don't think it applies as well because most people agree that even though Peter's reaction was infuriating, it was still totally within character. We all remember how Peter immediately went from a euphoric like trance to "shoot first and shoot some more later" when Ego mentioned he killed his mom. Tony doesn't really get that pass because he's always listened to reason up until that point, especially considering the only reason he was even there to help Steve was because he realized Bucky was set up and that Steve was right. For Tony not to see reason in Steve telling him that Bucky was brainwashed and not in control of his actions gets kind of sus in terms of Tony's character. To go even further, at that point, Bucky had already tried to Kill Tony once while brainwashed. Meaning Tony has witnessed first hand what it means when Steve tells him Bucky was not in control.

[@msk-qp6fn]

@@MrChidumebi3 I agree with this one

[@brookedickson4118]

What I expected; what makes a plot stupid and how to avoid it. What I got; how to write stupid plots well. This works so much better. It’s like sex Ed vs abstinence.

[@josephperez2004]

Red always goes the extra mile. Then teaches you how to convert miles to kilometers, the pros and cons of the different measurement systems and a few humorous anecdotes to round things out.

[@CarnageRulez469]

You had me at the thumbnail of Batman v Superman and the Video Title “Idiot plot”.

[@otaku-chan4888]

Omniscient Reader's Viewpoint (yes, it's me, the ORV bot again) mostly avoids the idiot plots. Though there definitely are some points where the main characters fight and the audience goes "no! Talk it out, damn it!!" it does make sense, because even when they _are_ working together they hardly communicate at all. Yoo Joonghyuk is an emotionally constipated sunfish, and Kim Dokja is emotionally repressed to the point where it fucked entire universes over, but that doesn't make the characters frustrating because there's valid reasons for why they can't communicate. Joonghyuk's entire character was written to be a person of few words, he prefers action to words (and stories, that he doesn't prefer especially since his goal is to eliminate the influence of scenarios and stories). As for Dokja, he thinks there's no real way to understand someone else, in the same way no one else can fully understand him, and dissociates to be the onlooker in third-person; so opening up would be too much immersion and something he'd rather avoid. In short, Dokja and Joonghyuk are people who wouldn't be able to have a deep conversation to save their lives (which did actually happen lmao) But the way they do eventually get on the same wavelength is so satisfying. It's not _perfect,_ but there's a lot of heart behind the shared comraderie they do have, and while they're still idiots for never learning how to talk things out, they're _my_ idiots~

[@krumpits]

I feel like this is every story that comes from “character overhears conversation and jumps to conclusions and leaves before listening for literally one second longer”

[@Cityweaver]

It's just so disgusting how many lackluster, mediocre snoops there are...! ... Is what I would say to them if I wasn't willing to give them another chance. And if they get their act together, I'll throw 'em a little surprise party, too.

[@The7thDraconian]

It's one of those storytelling devices that feels really cheap, like inherently. I've seen works do it well, usually by setting up that the character jumping to conclusions was expecting the worst and either leave right away because confirmation bias. But those well done examples are few and far between.

[@Ansixilus]

Now that I've seen Red illustrate The Fool, I want an entire Overly Sarcastic Tarot.

[@Telephonebill51]

"Why can't we just get in the RUNNING CAR?" "Don't be stupid, we'll go hide behind the chain saws..."