No Wrist Speed? No Problem: Secrets Of Reverse Dart Thrower Picking Motion

[@Goldendick]

I'm already blasting the f*ck out my guitar after watching this. It is unbelievable! You are a genius, Troy. Thank you so much for everything!

[@troygrady]

Put up some clips, we love seeing results!

[@Goldendick]

@@troygrady just uploaded a video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y2bXXq2oZ8qYjNE. The upstrokes are crazy already!

[@troygrady]

Awesome!! Edit: For reasons I can't figure out your link is not displaying here, but it probably will if I post it as the channel owner ( kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y2bXXq2oZ8qYjNE ). For those who are interested, click on over for some amazing 260 bpm upstroke riffing!

[@Goldendick]

@@troygrady omg. I'm honored. Feel free to share and cut ❤

[@Goldendick]

@@troygrady New video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bIGTaYGOhbdqi8k definitely got faster on the higher strings, but i don't know if i am doing it right.

[@cofiddle]

I am astounded by how much we still have to learn about technique, efficiency, the human body, Etc.

[@troygrady]

Same!

[@johnwardle9667]

I'm a mechanical engineer and a guitar player. I find this forensic approach to guitar techniques so AWESOME! I really appreciate the work that must go into these. ❤

[@troygrady]

Nice! That's a skill set I'd like to have. What do you work on?

[@helio1055]

prob just 🧢ing lmao

[@johnwardle9667]

@@helio1055 hey, first job was a design consultant to the construction industry, mechanical and electrical department, Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning systems for buildings. I didn't really enjoy that too much. Then I transferred to a Diesel engine test facility. R&D for the fuel injection systems for truck and tractor engines. I dunno what capping is, I'm probably too old.

[@NEKROMONICON.]

@@johnwardle9667hey that’s awesome I’m an engineer also! Love metal and guitar rock on 🤘

[@NEKROMONICON.]

@@troygradyyour sick af on the axe 🎸 KEEP IT METAL ROCK ON 🤘

[@RichLyles]

I wish I'd have seen this 35 years ago. Thanks for all your hard work making this, Troy Grady! You're Awesome!

[@troygrady]

Me too! Better late than never I guess.

[@BobbyKoelble]

Exemplary work as usual, Troy. Thanks so much for giving props to Chuck Schuldiner! I played with Chuck in Death and it was a great honor to do so. Nice to see him getting recognition here for his blazing picking technique. I tend to think of the reverse dart thrower motion as the same as using a salt or pepper shaker. Please correct me if I'm wrong haha.Cheers \m/

[@cuteasxtreme]

I'm going right back to your Symbolic Solos video after I get this technique down.

[@troygrady]

Awesome!! Man you played on a true classic. Chuck is a pioneer. I actually had to do a little digging to make sure I got the pronunciation right. I discovered that not knowing how to pronounce "Schuldiner" is pretty common.

[@bliss_gore5194]

Oh my god it's the Bobby Koelble! I loved your solos on symbolic :)

[@StevenRice]

huh, I was doing reverse dart the entire time and didn't even realize it...that's awesome. Its always what was more comfortable for me over the past 33 years. Excellent video as always!

[@therealbrentmiedema]

I've dealt with chronic muscle tension due to PTSD for all of my adult life. The work you do in the science of guitar playing is greatly appreciated.

[@10csade]

cry me a river

[@ExiLeZH]

@@10csade really?

[@nyquilthegreat]

Wtf you started this project so many years ago i thought you had uncovered it all and then you make this mind-blowing video 🤯

[@troygrady]

What we noticed originally was the concept of escape motion, where some players make the pick appear it is going up in the air. But we actually didn't know much about all the different ways the motions are accomplished, i.e. which joints and arm positions and pick grips and so on. That was a very complicated puzzle to piece out but we have much, much more knowledge of that know. And also how to teach things, which is the important part for most of us who just want to make music.

[@nyquilthegreat]

@@troygrady well I think you do a great justice to the many nuances involved, and your resources are ones for the guitar history books! PSP and CtC really opened my eyes to technique and position, and this video did it again by literally inverting how I perceived which muscles are working on the desired motion

[@Torgomasta]

Awesome you included Archspire!! Dean Lamb is one of the main guys that comes to mind for me reverse dart throwing. He’s the only reason I’ve tried to switch to it, no luck yet, but still trying.

[@troygrady]

Are you sure you're not already doing it? Andy Wood, Al Di Meola, John McLaughlin, Andy James, and many more or all reverse dart players. They're not using "tall mouse" form but there's plenty of footage of McLaughlin blazing at 220bpm+. So "small mouse" is still a very capable motion.

[@raysmith5193]

When it comes to technique Mr. Grady is # 1 guitar teacher in my book !

[@renesagnelli]

I can't believe how a high level, top tier, super instructional and enlightening video has only 145k views (when this comment was made)!! This is a life changing video, thank you so much Troy Grady! You changed my playing and I bet you also changed the playing of many guitar players! I'm hitting the share button, and everyone should also!

[@theeasterling3383]

So u could actually write a dissertation on this one and become a phd in guitar 💪🏽 this is pure science

[@troygrady]

We drew on a number of research papers for this. What is interesting is that the performance question (i.e. speed and endurance) hasn't really been investigated by science yet. These motions are mainly studied for their role in rehabilitation of joint injuries, where doctors are looking for motions which are very common because they can be used in many everyday activities like pouring, tapping, etc. They are less concerned with breaking speed records, even though the speed aspect can be a clue to how the joint motions work and why they evolved - and those questions *would* probably be of interest to researchers.

[@theeasterling3383]

@@troygrady I mean this is a great topic for phd research in Berkeley university. This is the whole new level of playing, ur pickslanting videos for example completely changed the way I play. And it’s really more than just - practice 24/7 and u will become a great player

[@MarRecusable]

Finally someone scientifically dissected James Hetfield's picking technique. You are my hero. TY!!!

[@troygrady]

James is a picking pioneer!

[@MarRecusable]

@@troygrady I'm printing this conversation to show to my friends.

[@BenEller]

WELL! I know what I’m trying today!

[@ForTiorIJohnny]

ngl i didn´t quite get all of that. but what i did get out of this video is that fast "knocking on a door" motion you can do in the air, do that on the guitar. and if the motion seems a bit large, don´t worry about it. and after a few minutes of trying that mindset, fast down strokes do feel quite a bit easier and less tense.

[@troygrady]

That's it! Great summary. The other hint is that to do it on a guitar, you don't want to come straight down and "knock" on the strings. You want to come at it a little from the side, so you may have to rotate your arm position a little like you do when using an ergonomic mouse. And this may require using a different pick grip to achieve that arm position while still being able to reach the strings comfortably with the right attack.

[@jackiefrett3235]

OMG finally! I've been playing 15 years now and never could get this 220 bpm downstrokes like Hetfiled does Thanks, this is pure magic through science You guys are the best 🥰

[@troygrady]

Awesome! Let's see some clips! We're always learning from the way other people are learning.

[@terryschambers1584]

Please! Never stop doing what you do Troy!!

[@troygrady]

I'm unemployable in the accounting department with my current skill set so you're in luck!

[@fabricioborges6643]

To say this video has just made my day is an absolute understatement! I have no words right now... Just have to say "thank you, Troy!"

[@troygrady]

Cool!

[@riangarianga]

Thank you, that was pretty interesting! It'll serve me to guess why I can play quite fast when standing and wearing the guitar a bit lower than when sitting down, when my arms are otherwise feeling cramped. Your work is a blessing! Those first videos on pick slanting meant an immediate leap for me, after years of struggling jumping strings, not being able to figure out on my own how easy it actually was. Although he main «wisdom» I gained wasn't the technique itself, but the thought process to find out the «code». Later on I even took beginner students, and observing their mechanics while fixing them as needed (I didn't want to bomb them with rules on «position correctness») made me learn much more than just observing myself.

[@lovisblixt4276]

HOLY SHIT this made my downpicking speed go from a max of 85 bpm (where i got tired) to 95 bpm and sometimes higher depending on what i play, and my arm feels less exhausted! In one day! Thank you very much, this has greatly improved my picking!

[@TarnTarn-zv6cp]

Troy,I can't express how my playing (20 years deep before I discovered you) has improved,love you man ❤

[@alisabbagh8242]

Amazing thing. I've been doing the reverse Dart thrower picking with a typical pick grip forever. My thumb doesn't bend backwards so I've adapted. At first I couldn't figure out why both motions where the same speed with your way and mine.After filming my hand and comparing, It's because I've always done it. Cheers for putting a name to the technique.

[@aleksamrkela831]

Looks like a breakthrough for me. Definitely going to exercise this!

[@perikholt3395]

I love to watch these vids and imagine what it’s like to have the ability to get your hands somewhat in sync with each other.

[@williamhsi3597]

Thanks Troy! This makes absolutely sense. With this dart throwing motion it’s easier to play faster and cleaner.

[@user-pdogiP78V]

Man, I can't even tell you how much this helped me. Finally, for the first time in several years, that awkward passion for learning guitar appeared again. Can't believe this information is free, you obviously deserve much more views. And also I definitely can see how you honestly want to share your team's discoveries with people, it really warms the soul XD.

[@troygrady]

Awkward passion for the win!

[@jordanj9069]

I’ve been waiting for this level of research to be put into musical technique for years… thank you

[@troygrady]

Evidence-based investigation is what we do!

[@michael1]

@@troygrady It's a waste of time with respect to playing music. Firstly it's a tautology, since none of the mugs singing your praises can play darts telling them it's a dart playing motion is as pointless as telling aspiring dart players to move like they're picking a guitar. Secondly none of them do anything else they do by fretting about which anatomically named parts of their body move or don't move - if that was required then 1 year olds wouldn't be learning how to walk we'd have to wait until they were older. Thirdly if all the people singing your praises could actually play the guitar to a high technical standard then there's bazillions of incredible virtuoso musicians by now and yet there aren't any. Odd. Lastly, and the biggest clue this is a waste of time : the only interesting guitar players to come out in the past decade that are playing music can't even use a pick. Lastly, if you look at other musical instruments, e.g the piano, you can find the same situation : a plethora of highly skilled virtuoso pianists and a circle jerk of people bleating on in pseudo-scientific terms about parts of their body who can't play particularly well fixating on technique in the flawed belief this will provide the "secret" to playing. It doesn't. But I guess the key part of making money from this is ignoring that evidence.

[@slapitman]

Troy can you please do the video from the players perspective ie view of hand but from the players eye? It's great to see the string axis and rotation at string height but it doesn't really relate to the players view. We need to see the action as you would looking at our strings with the guitar on our body. I really think this would help more.

[@tonymartin4571]

Right and with both pick grips. I’m so lost on this subject after watching it like 5 times I still don’t get it

[@valuesrejected]

Definitely, I am so lost lmao

[@jfo3000]

Paul Gilbert has a great video from "Paul's Eye View" with lots of discussion of up and down escape motions, although he doesn't call them by those names, but you can see it the way he does...so valuable!!! kzbin.info/www/bejne/h2eaioKMrtaCj8U

[@wth522]

Amazing stuff, Troy! I have heard people talk about reverse dart throwing motions in the forum but I never really knew what they were talking about and now I do! This video is so well done! Incredible playing also. Great job! 🙂🤘

[@troygrady]

The Primer explains all of this in even simpler fashion. The quickest reference we have is this lesson here: troygrady.com/primer/motion-mechanics/chapter-1-identifying-wrist-motion/

[@DethMetalGuitars]

My dad just retired recently. As a guitar player he asked me if i would teach him some guitar to reclaim an old goal of his now that he has free time. I will definitely be showing him this and other videos that demystify certain things that lurk beneath that surface level that most players struggle with at first and need to discover through feel for themselves. I play more extreme stuff and have since i was 15 and a reverse dart thrower style is what i landed on for picking speek 17 years ago through necessity, trial, and error. My dad wont ve needing this type of speed, but at his age he will need to be exerting his effort efficiently to avoid overuse injuries while learning, staying healthy and injury free is the only way to reach a goal like that in a timely manner. Cheers Troy and co.

[@troygrady]

That is a fantastic observation! It's not really that the motions are fast - it's that they're fast *because* they're efficient and easy. Everything below those speeds just gets even easier.

[@Matt-xe9dj]

I feel like Troy is listening to me through my phone. I’ve been learning corridor of chameleons by Meshuggah and had to switch to this very technique. Then I see this video in my recommended. Funny timing! You rock, Troy

[@troygrady]

If you're intuitive enough to somehow know that these form adjustments work, then you are among the few, the proud. I was never that smart back in the day. I had to "figure out" all these things!

[@ErikWebsterRealtor]

This opened up my mind as to why my picking speed hasnt progressed.

[@MattAngiono]

Okay, I'm ready for the version for drummers now too (my first musical passion)! This was amazing! It should be mandatory viewing for anyone trying to play fast! I also noticed the grip is very different from what I've seen recommended for fast playing in other videos. Gonna have to try it all! Also, as a physicist, I love the scientific approach to understanding the ergonomics. I'm sure anyone with a science background will agree. This is simply the best demonstration of this ever! Cheers, and THANK YOU!

[@anglach3l]

PHEW, my brain just didn't want to do supinate the wrist AND also use DSX. Took me about an hour to convince my brain that bringing my wrist down is the upstroke motion in this technique. You're so right though, it's technique-based. Every 10 seconds I'd have to remind myself to either get my wrist back to the "ergonomic mouse" position, or to reverse my pick slant, and every time I'd remember, my speed would come back. Then I'd lapse into old muscle memory and lose the speed. Thank you for this!

[@joebegly733]

​ @troygrady you'd already set the bar high but this is one of the most interesting videos you've done. Playing in the beginning was CRAZY and all the explanation of how the wrist works was very informative. Well done, I know you and the team put a ton of time into this stuff. 👏👏👏 EDIT: I wasn't even finished the video when I posted the above. Playing in the middle-end is even CRAZIER lol So awesome!

[@troygrady]

This single escape stuff is a great skill and doing it at the nether reaches of speed (1) is fun, (2) makes 200 bpm feel like walking backwards so improves all your other playing, and (3) leads to all kinds of cool idea generation. Like turning all your diatonic scales into 1234 / 4321 fingerings by adding an extra note.

[@kevindrinkswater9024]

I've been playing a long time and I've been searching for why my alternate picking was plateauing and i wanted to go faster but i was locked. It's because of thumb to pinky movement..100%! I'm not near my guitar but i can already tell your spot on

[@noneavailable5515]

Troy is responsible for me being able to throw down on guitar...Cant tell you what these lessons have done for not only kickass playing,but you're also helping people's self esteem...🤘

[@f_USAF-Lt.G]

Songwriting has to have the cyclical roots of the modality's emotional spectrums AND the trained ear... It takes months: starting with the parts (doodles) that you want to put together. You work on the link zones through bridges and accents just to paste it together. After getting that template created, you move on into the phrasing nuances that speak out the idea while holding back on the spelling things out. The entire process is constantly evolving the piece into the end product so, that time of overly elaborating the parts and the piece is still relevant to the self lessons in choosing the chord usages and elaborations. Thank you for this interview !!

[@TheDarrenJones]

This is truly fantastic. I'm a similar age to Troy, and while I've been unavoidably away from playing the guitar for a couple of years, I've just seen the light after literally decades of frustration from having tried to ape Al Di Meola's playing with a flat wrist and side-to-side action (which I think he even described in his playing techniques book which I bought when I was maybe 15). Just changing that axis while tapping against my laptop, with the arm twisted (rather than flat) shows that this is a huge breakthrough. Fantastic stuff from Cracking the Code, and when I eventually get back to playing the guitar (in 6 months or so), I'm looking forward to putting this into practice. 👍

[@troygrady]

Yes! When you learn to view wrist joint motion relative to the arm it becomes clearer which motion Al Di is actually making. Live footage helps of course. From static photos in books back in the day, forget it - I had no chance. There were still people who learned these techniques at fifteen or whatever, with no teaching. They were just fewer in number because succeeding required particularly great athletic intuition, luck, or both.

[@claymor8241]

Hope you get your parole.

[@TheDarrenJones]

@@claymor8241 It's worse than that. I'm self-building an extension for my house.... my one year build is already over a year overdue! All looked so easy on KZbin.

[@TheMirrorify]

You're such an asset to the guitar community, Troy. This confirms something I have suspected for a while, I notice way less tension when I do the 3 finger grip. I actually do it with 2 fingers but my index finger is in the same position (slightly more centered on the pick) as it would be in the 3 finger version, kinda pointing at the guitar, not curled up. After watching your video here I noticed the method I described also allows for that slight forearm rotation.

[@troygrady]

Sounds plausible! You are correct that the key is the wrist motion, and the arm position and grip simply enable that.

[@NOTDOJS]

Thanks for teaching and codifying these techniques. It somewhat explains how I pick single note lines. You mention that when using the easy motion, one picks straight into the guitar. But rather than rotate the forearm clockwise as you do, I rotate the arm counter-clockwise, so the pick points downwards, getting the pick as parallel as I can comfortably get with the fretboard. I hold the pick in a standard thumb and index manner and use a door-knocking motion to pick with short strokes. In my mind, I feel like I am picking towards and away from the fretboard. This also allows me to alternate pick one note per string arpeggios and two notes per string as fast as I can tremolo pick. There is a Shawn Lane video where he describes what I think is similar. He says that his pick is almost sideways, and his hand appears to be doing the dart-thrower motion. I am by no means an accomplished guitarist, as I only noodle now and then, but I thought I'd mention this as a variation of your technique.

[@Dungeon47]

Another perfect explanation and demonstration of a rather arcane subject. This is close to how I've been playing since I ditched the bent wrist style Marty Friedman uses so I could do reliable palm muting some 15 years ago. The other component is the rotation of the whole forearm as an added part of the overall motion. That rotation is a function of the bicep, which being a rather larger than forearm muscles, has a lot of endurance for these small motions. Combining some rotational motion in with the angled wrist motion (for me at least) gives a lot more endurance. The circular axis of the added motion, also makes avoiding unwanted string picks a little easier.

[@troygrady]

Forearm motions can be fast, for sure! EVH's tremolo technique is a great example of that. But this technique here does not have a forearm rotational component. You can see this in the closeup shots - the pick is not rotating. This technique is more similar to what very fast wrist players do, like Shawn Lane and John McLaughlin.

[@Dungeon47]

@@troygrady Indeed. The big takeaway for me is the reminder that you don't have to use the same technique for everything. You can have a whole bag of different tools and use as needed. I think a lot of us get hung up on the idea of there being a singular 'right' way. You're doing a lot to get people to branch out and accept variety.

[@troygrady]

That's true, and Ed is a good example of a multi-technique player who used different motions for different phrases.

[@Dungeon47]

@@troygrady I think about Tim Henson in that context of using a huge variety of techniques. Like some of the newer Metallica stuff. It sounds very simple and easy to play, until you try, and then discover it's challenging in new ways, be it timing, or some other way you have to stretch.

[@paulsprouse7239]

What an absolute unbelievable one of a kind genius this man is

[@EL_DUDERIN0]

This is genius. that fast strum is what I can do now and again, but not consistently. Now I know how. Brb gotta go practice. Thanks!

[@troygrady]

That's the key! If you can get it sometimes and not others, that's the sig that you're onto something. I think of it like doing a skateboard trick.

[@EL_DUDERIN0]

@@troygrady Nice analogy! Certain skateboarding tricks are not going to work unless you setup your feet properly and generally someone has to show you that part... thanks again for lending your knowledge man!

[@michaelseidl1562]

love your analytics. i can play some smooth phrases with instinct, and doubble escape, but some other´s are always got a extramove that slowes all down. i think u nailed it, again! thx

[@rattleheaddd]

woah, ive been playing like this since the start of my guitar journey and i always thought that my picking technique wasn't right

[@TheBrianRaglandChannel]

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏Wow, I am truly mind blown. I've been playing for 30 plus years and I could never attain the speeds that I wish to attain or the effortless in the clean picking between string and notes. I am blown away by this. Thank you so much. New subscriber here. I plan on binge watching the videos on your channel and possibly ordering your instructional videos. Where have you been my whole life?👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

[@troygrady]

Awesome, thank you!

[@malamute8257]

Today I learned my picking technique looks identical to Albert Lee. I had actually been consciously trying to stop using 3 finger grips because I thought they were "wrong" and would hinder rather than help. In the same way, I was trying to flatten out my mouse shape to be flat like Jason Richardson. This has been enlightening. Been doing stuff right I didn't even know I was doing right.

[@troygrady]

I think Jason's technique is actually "dart thrower", i.e. non-reverse. So he's not flat, he's actually anchoring on the thumb and tilted the *opposite* direction. This is mainly for his medium-speed playing. When he speeds up I think it just becomes elbow joint motion, but this is common among dart players, since the overall form is similar. In your case though, correct - if your arm position looks Albert's tall mouse form, and it's comfortable, you can get great results that way.

[@malamute8257]

@@troygrady by flat, I just mean how his fingers are tucked underneath and curled tightly, not that he is picking or moving on a flat axis. In other words, I thought it was bad to be "tall". It looks like an "OK" hand symbol when I hold my pick sometimes, where Jason has no space between the thumb and pointer. kzbin.info/www/bejne/m3jRn3usma2qhZY 3:48 in this video is exactly what I'm talking about.

[@prezlamen]

This is exactly how I play,I develop this by feel,I was unable to down stroke in metal.I think this is also a secret of Shawn Lane`s speed

[@troygrady]

Yes, Shawn was a dart player - but the original dart thrower motion, not the reverse one. So he is kind of "backwards" compared to the players we look at in this video. However, similar concept. He's using the diagonal motion for speed.

[@bobibobik5903]

@prezlamen i saw it from George Benson and in one old book from DC and of course Shon Lane as well ( IMHO Shown picked that from G. Benson), but there were no explanations like Troy did it here. Shown only told that He holds a pick in an opposite direction, and that during those super fast runs He almost 'cut' strings at 90 degrees angle. The rest was up to to us who watched Him to guess what He did. So i never had a guts to develop that, and a few days ago i gave it tried after a long pause and it seems more natural. Problem was that teachers would tell us ''that is the wrong approach''. Thx to Troy people can understand why something works and believe in it 100% that such approach or any other that he have explained (in the past years) will gave them a good results. Of course If they practice it , so it is soooo much easier nowadays thx to Troy. Imagine if people had this 30 years ago such detailed explanations? I wished i did due to there was a lot of guess work back then, and some teachers would insist ''you have to hold the pick like this''. Only solution for the problem was to play slow. OK Shown told ala ''that is OK to play a fast as We can no matter f We make mistakes, but then to return to a speed were We can play it clean''. that was a bit difrent approach that We used to see in those REH videos and Hot Licks. There were no people like Troy would clearly explain it all .

[@bobibobik5903]

@@troygrady Your explanations are so precise, Troy IMHO you are the leading expert when it comes to picking techniques ( for the last 10 years for sure you're No1). I have to find some page with all expressions you use to learn them well. Due to you've put the picking under the scientific Prisma, and that is a good thing, because such precise expressions and names are taking away the guessing work. Thank you so much Sir Troy!

[@RobTackettCovers]

With me, I think it is a synchronization between left and right that I struggle with....as in speed runs.....if your fingering hand is slow when playing runs, it really doesn't matter how fast your picking hand can go when it comes to fast runs...but that's a completely different subject than what this video covers...this is a way cool video in regard to what it is covering...which appears to be playing extremely fast while staying on one note or chord. Thanks for this one, Troy, hope you and yours are doing well!

[@troygrady]

For sure, the intro is all riff examples, but I also included coordinated single-note lead playing examples in the alternate picking section at 15:31. I wanted to make sure players understand that these are just wrist motions, and they can be used to play anything else that people typically with the wrist joint, i.e. everything! As to hand sync, yes, super critical topic. However, one thing I want to point out is that even tremolo picking with no fretting hand can be "synchronized", in a manner of speaking. Even at very fast speeds, and even with no click, it is possible to know, by feel, where all your downstrokes (or upstrokes) are in time, and to stop on any of them, so you can play an exact quantity of notes. This is true even when playing fast enough that someone listening may not be able to follow individual notes. The ability to "chunk" your motions into groups is how it's done, and it is actually the first step in two-handed synchronization. If the picking motions are not grouped in this way, then they will just be a blur, and you won't be able to link them up to the fretting motions at known intervals. There's a little more on this subject in our old Cracking the Code series ( kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZqPNdGCmnZ6Kj6M ).

[@RobTackettCovers]

@@troygrady Thanks Troy (corrected the mis-spell of "Trey" in my comment...sorry about that, haha!)...I'll check the video reference of 15:31...thanks for the reference! "You just have to choose lines that you can actually fret at these tempos"....so it appears you have to know what lines your fingering hand is capable of accurately fretting at those picking hand speeds...ok...got it...thanks again!

[@JohnHorneGuitar]

I haven't really had a chance to fully explore everything presented here and I'm not sure I'm ready to switch up my pick grip, but I had a real paradigm shift after watching this video. I had some "door knocker" wrist motion in my playing already, but I considered it as a secondary part of my pick stroke. After focusing on it as the more primary method of movement it allowed me think about and experience the entire movement a bit differently. Thanks for your continuing exploration into this area!

[@troygrady]

I'm not sure there's a way to think about parts of a pickstroke! I say this only because I don't want to mislead you with all technical bedazzlement in these lessons if it's not actually going to produce results for you. With this technique, the simplest test is if you can do a rapid, easy-feeling "tapping" motion in the air. You can also do it by tapping on the guitar body. If you do it with a metrnome and you can go way faster than your usual picking motion, then that's a good sign that you're doing it. If the speed comes up more or less the same as what you normally do, then you might not be getting the benefit. Thankfully, this is one of those things where it's relatively easy to tell if it's working.

[@JohnHorneGuitar]

Trust me. I’m good at overthinking things.

[@Bardish]

Troy is pretty much unlocking the next generation of guitar players.. get ready for 1k notes per minute to be a common thing on youtube.

[@195wolf]

The best instruction on this topic! I like the scientific approach so much!

[@coledoyle5950]

I've been learning the guitar for about a year, and I've been doing this a lot accidentally when trying to pick really fast, which isn't really that fast considering my experience but not even realizing that it was an actual thing. sweet something to lean into then.

[@bobibobik5903]

Troy you're the legend, but i Doubt you'll believe that i tried that 7 days ago, after pause in playing of 1+ year and now i see video of yours ☺+science. I saw it from George Benson, Shown Lane, and before them from DJANGO and bunch of Manouche Jazz players, also in a book of Dave Celentano ''Flaying Fingers'' 30 years ago He gave proposition to try that technique. People called it ''Reverse''. Anyhow, i never had a guts to play like that due to its rare in rock, blues and HM fast solo picking. When i tried after 1+ years that technique it was far more natural and easier to me to play like that then with a usual approach. You are the only one who underline explanation why something work and goes deep into science. BRAVO !

[@troygrady]

There are tons of little coincidences and accidents like this in learning instrument technique so I believe it!

[@bobibobik5903]

@@troygrady WOW thank you so much Troy for the answer and that you believe, I agree with you 1000% about little coincidences! ( i've made a few spelling mistakes so pardon me for that pls). Thank you for all explanations, when you do it then it's makes more legit, and i'm sure this what you've made will have a HUGE impact on a future players, as well as all your videos and methods did in the past. You have changed how people approach to the guitar 100%. For a lot of things i have to thank you, due to some of your videos have helped me in the past to understand that is OK to tilt the pick. My teacher 25+ years ago insisted that i have to hold the pick parallels to the strings, and practice super slow. That gave me some usual results but your methods are far far better. You are excluding the guess work, and give people trust in it so that with some practice they will have a great results. I'm still not the sure should i change my entire picking to this one that you shared, but i'll use it more often. if someone sas it looks strange then i'll tell them ''check on Troy's channel''. Sometimes We have to believe more in ourselves when We see that something is giving results, no matter that only a minority of players are doing that or even if it seems 'unique'. That was my problem, i never had a guts to go for that technique all the way, but now thx to you that will change i promise. THANK YOU TROY, you are the BEST!

[@ScottLaneMusic]

I recommend purchasing the pickslanting primer. Its got tons of great information. One thing I didnt realize is that Downward escape is the fastest (vs USX).

[@troygrady]

Yeah it's a very interesting question. It's mainly just that there is one direction of the wrist that is the fastest. However the escape you get is somewhat secondary - it's determined by the overall arm position and form. It's possible that you could use the "fast" direction of wrist motion, but cause it to be USX by using the right form. Notice that many death metal players use a highly "flexed" wrist, like you're cradling a baby. I think this is why they do that. With a straighter wrist, that same motion might produce DSX. So some experimentation is necessary.

[@ScottLaneMusic]

​@@troygrady Thanks for responding Troy. Having worked with it for about 6 months I find I like a more heavilyflexed wrist when on the high E (USX). If I am moving across the strings I flatten out somewhat.

[@trevscribbles]

This is fascinating. I was in a band with another guitar pal who was far less committed to the instrument than myself, but his alternate picking was lightyears ahead of mine regardless of my hours of discipline, attempting to catch up with him. I guess he just naturally landed on this economic technique 'cause he certainly wasn't able to articulate it to me!

[@Sorc47]

This is amazing. I love how far you've been pushing the knowledge that everyone has pretty much disregarded up until now. There has been so much contradictory advice on picking technique and this idea that certain things only work for certain people. But Troy consistently shows that you can learn it all if you know how, whether it's Yngwie style shredding, bluegrass crosspicking, or effortlessly ripping through metal riffs at 250 bpm. Also love the thumbnail, by the way.

[@troygrady]

I think there are still likely differences in individual ability, as there are in athletics. But how great those differences are is unclear. The god of this subject was Anders Ericsson who was super skeptical of genetic "talent" but did accept that some things, like tall height in basketball, were obviously beneficial. For everything else he was emphatic that you won't get the best performance until the best techniques are fully understood and there is coaching that can teach them. So in that respect, it's a good description of where guitar is at, since we're still figuring out things and disseminating the instruction for them.

[@jfo3000]

​@troygrady And thank you Troy for your team's work!

[@AudioEast]

hands down best channel! thanks Troy.

[@marklazarus1356]

Абсолютно точный научный подход. Спасибо 👍

[@alexharvin2870]

Funny enough it's just like doing matched grip vs French grip when playing drums (single stroke rolls with no bounce/fingers). Matched grip with done by Slightly externally rotating (supinating) at the wrist and simultaneously flexing at the wrist. I actually gave up on guitar and started playing drums for about a decade...in part because I felt like this speed component was missing and I just didn't have "it." Then somehow coming back to the axe 10 years later but having somewhat optimized my wrist movement and positioning from drumming, I can play lighting fast. Still trying to get left hand synced up, but the right hand is no longer an issue. Great video series!!! Thank you!

[@troygrady]

Lots of parallels with drumming in terms of the complexity of the motions. None of the motions in this lesson are forearm rotation, they're all wrist joint motion. But we were just talking about Buddy Rich's joint motions on the forum the other day. His right hand was wrist, his left hand was forearm: ( forum.troygrady.com/t/buddy-rich-joint-motions/71087 )

[@cowsgobob3518]

Hey man, if you don't stop these videos we're gonna have a new GOAT of guitar KZbin...

[@tubo777]

Thanks for sharing this Troy! All you do is amazing and changing players lives!

[@edelcorrallira]

Those extreme speeds sound amazing!!!! Man so need to take note because I absolutely love that sound, I could listen to it for hours on end... Made me think of Anthrax and Agent Steel

[@troygrady]

It's super cool - sounds like a helicop[ter. And kind of surprising when you get it working.

[@Musika1321]

Wow wow wow Troy, thanks for confirming reverse dart thrower is exactly the same as Roy Marchbank's hybrid sarod. When you interviewing him? Be awesome to see you two jam.

[@Laionel76]

I'm grateful for you sharing such quality content with us. Thanks.

[@troygrady]

Thanks for watching!

[@Laionel76]

@@troygrady I've been following your work for quite a while and your finding and explanations are incredibly relevant and usefull. I've been practicing the advice you shared and it made realized something I've been suspecting for while. Whereas the extend to which the forearm is rotated is important, it appeared to me that the amount of flexion/extension of wrist is also important. While they are seen as progress, I wonder if tommy cut and the forearm contour pioneered on the stratocaster, are actually a desirable feature. Especially for the less gifted among us, a flat body implies that the player has a pretty control and perception of the plane of the string and it promotes a position in which the elbow is a tad further away from the body and there is less wrist flexion. The effect varies depending on whereas the player is sitting or standing, how he positions the guitar. etc it is nonetheless a factor. I just received a Les Paul copy and whereas I like the flat back, but I noticed that the carved top and the significant angle between the neck and the body messes with my picking. I guess one can adapt but I wonder if the flat simple bodies (with a neck aligned with the body) are actually more ergonomic when picking mechanic is considered and not confort. I could also explain why there is no request in the tele community for the strat «ergonomic» cut. Anyway, have a good week-end.

[@tommuller849]

Adopted this picking style from watching Steve Lukather play. He is a master at it.

[@happybobummy]

I'm no speed demon but i can pick pretty fast consistently. After watching the vid i guess i fell into this picking style by accident years ago, trying to learn thrash speed chugs. My old guitar teacher and i worked on technique plenty, but he's a jazz guy so we never really got into speed picking beyond scale runs with alternate picking. Anyway, cool video. Thanks for making it so scientific!

[@troygrady]

Necessity is the mother of invention! Metal and punk players know what's up when it comes to fast motion.

[@Javier-qk7ms]

Damn it Troy, if there was a Nobel Prize for guitar I am pretty sure you would already have a few of those.

[@Kriegter]

I actually started off with the three finger pick grip, but changed to a two fingered grup once I realised that I can't quite do a trailing edge when playing guitar standing anyways, which prompted me to switch to leading edge picking. However I realised that while most players only use the tip of the index finger to hold the pick with the thumb I use almost half the index finger, which looking back, was almost a compromise for a three finger grip.

[@troygrady]

Right! Sounds like you were probably figuring out a way to get similar efficiency with an index grip.

[@CompleteProducer84]

Never thought in a million years I would be going back to a trailing edge grip! But after seeing Troy's intro, I may have to for rhythm alone

[@troygrady]

You can use both / all. Just more tools for the toolbox!

[@CompleteProducer84]

@@troygrady Yes for sure, thanks Troy!

[@unnicornmusic89]

This totally works!!!! Im watching this at age 35 going where was this stuff 20 years ago :) but hey better late than never!!

[@troygrady]

Right on! What are you working on and what kind of results are you getting?

[@ariboiangiu1316]

Unbelievable ! Thanks Troy and crew!

[@elipse4594]

I managed to get it to work! It’s slightly faster than my regular technique. Feels really solid

[@troygrady]

What does your usual technique look like? Is it already pretty fast?

[@elipse4594]

Yes, my regular technique was already fast. How could I show you a video?

[@ArtbyPaulPetro]

HUGE cool points for that clip of Roy Clark from "The Odd Couple"...imo his finest recorded live performance (that I've seen anyway)

[@troygrady]

Roy was amazing!

[@MrThrash3d]

I'm playing that way since I picked up the guitar. It came naturally to me. Always played thrash, death, black metal.

[@tommyibanez3958]

It's crazy the number of things I was doing right as a young teenager that my teachers made me stop doing. I've been relearning from Troy all of the things that came naturally and were taught out of me.

[@troygrady]

Very common story! Technique is complicated and not at all obvious.

[@Kriegter]

This has always been my go to picking technique since I begab playing guitar. Having practically worshipped James Hetfield's picking it just made sense for me to imitate him

[@michaelseidl1562]

After practicing this today, I think I got it. Paul Gilbert talks about this, but from his video, I dont get it. (Paul Gilbert, Right Hand on KZbin) If you dont know this video, it's a nice shot of his picking, and he talks about the upstroke as well. I absolutely love Paul, but your discrpion is the best I know.

[@troygrady]

If you're talking about the one where he does all upstrokes and downstrokes, I've seen that. However the motions he does there are not very similar to his actual picking motion once he starts alternate picking. So if him doing all ups / downs that way helps, I would say it's somehat coincidental in his case. The key with the motions in this lesson is that even the "all-upstroke" tapping motion looks almost exactly like the alternate picking version of the same motion. We can see that with the slow motion camera. So it's a much closer stepping stone. If you can get the all-ups, you can probably also get alternate at the same tempo.

[@michaelseidl1562]

@@troygrady i think you are right, again, if the motion is exact the same the feeling changes. im glad of your gamechanging knowlage and sharing this stuff❤

[@Francesco-ow4ud]

Can’t wait to see a deep dive playlist of vids dedicated to Matteo Mancuso unique approach to guitar picks

[@klausonstrings]

Yeah! Thank You! After developing my one technique and learning the right hand technique of Michael Angelo Batio, I will be able to learn and understand the technique of James Hetfield because of you, Troy! As a Metallica fan I can't wait for learning it! And reverse ... wow!😊

[@robphillips8351]

Just stumbled across your channel... Pretty awesome sauce. Will be paying a lot of attention to your techniques

[@robertanderson1043]

Aw, man. This 3-finger rotated grip is what I started with so many years ago, until I got some lessons and was told that was completely wrong, and I was going to have to re-learn the thumb and curled first finger pick grip. Now you tell me!

[@troygrady]

Everything was anecdotal back then. Guys says do this, other guy says do that. The three-finger thing isn't magic though and some players may be able to use a "tall mouse" form with an index grip if their fingers or palm are long enough. So there are still unknowns here. I would say test and see what works, while monitoring for what feels easy / comfortable.

[@DanAshby]

I’m the same as you and am only just going back now and re-adopting some of things that I unlearnt because I was told by a black and white picture in a book printed in 1992 that it was wrong!

[@IkatoSwu-de2js]

This man is extraordinary

[@rachel3683]

You are a god among men, thank you so much :))

[@jfo3000]

Decades ago I started allowing my hands the freedom to do whatever motions are required to make things happen. This was a leap because I started on classical guitar where postures and mechanics are strictly regimented. But then you see Gary Moore using mostly only first and second fingers for that blinding left hand speed and the penny drops. Afterwards I stumbled onto two finger one thumb pick grip with "outward flick" playing Metallica type stuff. The hand just went there, I guess to relieve the struggle. Then it's great to see Hetfield and Troy validate these type of experiences, following our body's inclination for movement can really make things easier.

[@troygrady]

Exactly. If you're intuitive enough to figure out that some things feel easier than others, then you win. Most of us didn't know. We just did what we did and weren't able to suss out that certain aspects of our form were working well, and we should do MORE of those things. There were a ton of things I probably did right at 14 or 15 and had no idea I was doing right.

[@jfo3000]

​@@troygrady Me too regarding doing things easier early on. My classical guitar teacher taught me nothing about flatpicking. So I developed DPS economy picking on my own, 1974, before any knowledge was available. It worked great! Then heard that I needed pure alternate picking and stumbled down that road for a good long time. Now economy and alternate, whatever works easiest. I like the intuitive approach.

[@MrZergMan]

you're amazing for making this. thank you!

[@miseklukov7236]

The Legend returns!

[@troygrady]

...Thursdays this fall, only on NBC!

[@CarstenGoeke]

Another incredible Video Troy. Thanks very much ✌🏼

[@DevanBishop]

This was a fantastic video. Thanks for posting!

[@troygrady]

Right on!

[@eblue9620]

Pretty amazing explanation Troy, after so many years of unlocking picking secrets and still breaking new ground in researching and explaining what our human hands have been doing all along and didn’t know it. Tried this and it does indeed allow for faster speeds and with less fatigue. Reminds me of my ancient Asteroids video gaming days blasting through all those rocks. One caveat for me is I hybrid pick a lot and with this hand orientation my fingers are pointed towards the ceiling and can't get to the strings. 😉

[@troygrady]

Yes for sure. The Andy Wood "small mouse" reverse dart technique can split the difference a little for hybrid. It's not as fast as "tall mouse" form. But with Andy's arm position, which is much flatter, you can still make a diagonal motion that goes pretty fast. It just won't feel as super duper easy.

[@eblue9620]

@@troygrady makes sense, I'll give it a go

[@MarcelVincent]

been loving your stuff since the start... the way I pick is in my THUMB... i bending my thumb gives me and up stroke and straightening my thumb gives me a down stroke ( this is more noticeable on one string) this also by nature incorporates two way pick slanting.... the way i came up with this was from thinking picking parallel to the strings was what was causing me to break them but it was a sharp saddle on a cheap squire strat :P funny how things work

[@troygrady]

So many breakthroughs start as accidents or misperceptions. Embrace the chaos!

[@Mihai_9999]

LOVED SEEING JAMES GETTING MENTIONED HERE. Was waiting for a video on downstrokes since you interviewed Brendon.

[@troygrady]

The conversation with Brendon has a lot of great discussion of different rhythm techniques, and you can watch most of it right here on the channel. Great guy, and great player!

[@Ash___Wolf]

amazing! I wonder how we would pinch harmonic with it?

[@armandosinger]

Wow amazing. Been playing around with this technique for a couple hours and realized that my form looks similar to the Gypsy jazz player. But then I tried to flatten my wrist toward the strings more and directed for palm muting the lower strings and noticed it’s very uncomfortable. Now I can’t work out how these guys palm mute with the fleshy part of the palm under the thumb, or if they mute in a different way!

[@jonesyfromtheblock9635]

Amazing Troy! You always make it very clear en let us see the potential.

[@troygrady]

Excellent, that's what we're shooting for.

[@cactophage]

This channel is incredible!! Thank you Troy!

[@bstemwedel]

This one was revelatory! Thanks for the work you do!

[@remembertomorrow6737]

Awesome. That's the way Shawn Lane uses the pick!! 😮

[@troygrady]

It is! Shawn's motion was similar.

[@jaycayssa7155]

@@troygrady Similar? In what aspects is it different, could you please explain?

[@NovoGOBEKEN]

Goddamit, I rarely comment in a video but this is really good. Anatomy + IT + Guitar skills? OP

[@troygrady]

Thank you!