How did Billy the Kid really die? The controversy.

[@PD3a11]

“Nothing changes more than the past.” Great comment.

[@ITILII]

When the legend becomes fact, print the legend - In other words, when fiction becomes fact, print the fiction...From the movie, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence

[@lukesnare8063]

The past can never be changed you can only change it with words

[@timjohnson2551]

@@ITILII w WW2 WW2 ³ww⁴ was

[@ronniebishop2496]

And at least we have the courage to change it to the truth if we ever find it.

[@ronniebishop2496]

@@lukesnare8063 The past doesn’t change but what we say about it and what we think the facts are does change, and should.

[@27Zangle]

My father was really into western, books, movies, history, etc. I remember him reading Louis L'Amour over and over among other articles. He lived in the Nevada, Arizona area while growing up and would regularly visit family throughout his life until his death. I remember books laying around and he would read them over and over through the years. He watched a lot of old westerns and anything new that came out and would include me with the movie watching on Friday nights. We would get some sleeping bags to camp in the living room, ice cream, and a coke. He would usually drink himself to sleep and I would finish the movie on my own before shutting off the VCR and TV. One thing my mother had always said was, "Your father was born about 100 years too late."

[@strahaironscale571]

sounds like a cool dad

[@beachcomber1able]

What was his opinion on Brushy Bill?

[@i.marr.6688]

@@beachcomber1able Do you believe Brushy Bill was really Billy the Kid? I doubt it was him If billy wasn't shot dead he would have resurfaced sometime later, On the other hand he was identified by some who knew Billy, But I believe he was shot By Pat Garratt

[@beachcomber1able]

@@i.marr.6688 No way was Brushy Billy. 😆 Forty odd folks went to Billy's funeral and the ladies of the town dressed His body .

[@danielwebster5748]

That is a good story. I have always said the same about myself

[@0lddragracer426]

In 1950, I was 12 years old. I was a big reader then, and now. I went to my local library, to check out some books, and found "The Saga of Billy the Kid," by Walter Noble Burns. I read it, and it left me with a life long fascination for the kid. I happened to mention this to one of my cousins, and a few days later I received a brand new copy of my own. It's still in Print, since 1927. I have been re-reading it, and enjoying it very much. Because I know so much more now about the kid, and his story, this read is not quite the same. Gone are the stars in my eyes. I believe you are correct when you said that this book made Billy Bonny a super star. It absolutely did!

[@doncrawford1255]

Llllll

[@jacobturan7948]

William H. Bonney blasted that bitch, with his own silver dimes! Yea!!!

[@MustafaBinAkbar]

My Great Grandmother use to tell how The Dalton Gang would hide out in her Father in Law's bard after they would rob a train. My 2X Great Grand Father lived in Perry, Okla his name was Chief Hoke Dent, they would leave the barn door open and the Dalton Gang after Robbing a train or bank would ride into Indian terrority and hide out in his barn. His wife would bring out dinner and breakfast to them. When they would leave my 2 X Great grandmother would go out to get the dishes and The Dalton Gang would leave a stack of gold coins on a wood barrel.

[@tacofingerz7247]

Well.. the Dalton gang? Or the Dalton-doolin gang?

[@MustafaBinAkbar]

@@tacofingerz7247 she said Dalton

[@TheBatugan77]

@@tacofingerz7247 She said Dalton. D-a-l-t-o-n.

[@clintperry799]

Super cool 😎

[@briangleason5597]

You teach me more than Any teacher ever did. Thank You Sir.

[@kiasax2]

Being American Indian and a history buff, I have loved True West since I was a kid. So, many thanks to you, Sir. So glad you've brought up Mr. Utley and Mr. Hutton, two historians that I respect immensely. I absolutely agree with you entirely, the story Garrett told just doesn't make any sense. No photos of the Kid's corpse? Really? Nonsense. If the Kid had been killed, there would have been photographs, with as much evidence as possible.

[@LRBeforeTheInternet]

Yeah, because there were tons of photographers living in Fort Sumner in 1881. LOL :)

[@MrSkiptracy]

In 1963 I was in the United States Air Force stationed in New Mexico I was talking to a man in his early '90s and really the kids subject came up and he swore to God that he never was killed the way it's gone down in history that he end up going to Mexico for a while before moving back to Texas and down of old age and I've always believed him That's all I got

[@stevensmith1911]

Hello Bob, I was at the Denver photo auction and actually spoke to you earlier that day. What a day!

[@danielscuiry2847]

Dear Bob: I’ve followed you and your work on The Kid’s life for years. Watching this episode made me decide to get your “Final Word”. Thank you for all that you’ve done here.

[@tacofingerz7247]

The only thing that really makes me doubt about Billy's death is the fact that there is no picture of him being dead. A wanted outlaw like him? A thirsty dog lile Garrett? Not a single picture taken? Like , it wasnt that all of that happen in a shootout in the middle of nowhere with a killing weather, it wasnt in battle, it was IN a room, and ambush, well planned and orchestrated, patiently pulled off and yet nobody took a fuckin picture? Hell we dont have pictures of the Dalton gang while being a gang, just the one where they are dead. We have a lot of pictures of a lot of dead outlaws who werent as notorious as billys and yet, knowing also that before his death there was only one picture of him? Cough we dont have a Bin Ladens dead pic either Cough. Just SAYIN.

[@808ghostMiller]

Definitely agree!!! 💯. Makes that movie Old Henry that much more entertaining

[@BlackbirdSpecOps]

Fort Sumner was small and there wasn’t a photography studio there. Photographers back then travelled through and plied their trade when they were available. Not uncommon to not have a photo of Billy the Kid dead.

[@brianmallen8887]

@Stephan Revier Can we talk about the croquet picture? If everybody else in the pic is who they say they are and there's no way to fake putting them in there....then it's got to be the Kid, right?...All we want is the truth, right? ..And if it is the Kid? It sure tells you something. The look on his face, the way he's covering his overbite. He got something going on under his sweater about mid-section. I think he's hiding a pistol. The guy in the pic pointing at the Kid, there's a reason for that. In fact, everybody in the pic seems to be focusing direct or indirectly at the Kid.....It may be splitting hairs but Billy the Kid wasn't the same kind of criminal as The Daltons, James gang, Sam Bass etc. .. He never stuck a gun in somebody's face to rob them. Like Arizona's "Cowboys" he stole horses and cattle, but Billy never robbed banks, trains, or people. Pat Garret was just doing his fucking job. You don't just let something go after somebody kills two of your deputies and then fails to leave the territory. Billy stuck around cause he was in love with Paulita Maxwell? I think Pat Garret woulda hunted the Kid to the ends of the earth and the kid knew it and decided to have it out in New Mexico. That's why Billy was sneaking around in his socks with a knife. Garret would have been a fool to approach a wiley, sneaky, escape artist who was damn good with a rifle and pistol like Bonney on the up and up. It's not a fucking movie, this stuff really happened. These were real people who didn't want to go out in a blaze of glory.

[@pauls5096]

@Stephan Revier Dude, step away from the exclamation point. It's only to be used quite sparingly.

[@LuisGomez-pg2qk]

AT TACO FINGERS - FT SUMNER AT THAT TIME WAS VERY SMALL TOWN, STILL IS ,MOSTLY MEXICANS LIVED THERE.NEW MEXICO IS STILL SOMEWHAT DESOLATE ESPECIALLY IN LINCOLN COUNTY COULD POSSIBLY BE NO CAMERAS AT FT SUMNER AT THAT TIME.ALSO GARRETT KILLED THE KID IN THE DARK SO THAT WOULD HAVE ANGERED BILLY'S FRIENDS N SO GARRETT RECEIVED NO COOPERATION FROM ANYONE IN FT SUMNER AND I'M SURE GARRETT N HIS DEPUTIES FEARED FOR THIER LIVES SO THEY JUS WANTED TO GET THE HELL OUT OF TOWN NO PICTURES, NO AUTOGRAPHS, NO PARADE GARRETT KILLED BONNEY N JUS IMMEDIATELY LEFT.

[@andrewt8754]

Love your work Bob, I'm a massive western fan all the way from down under Australia, my man cave is like going back in time with so much western stuff everywhere.

[@c-secofficer123]

"They some men were born in the wrong century.. I think I was born on the wrong continent" This aint Dodge City...and you aint Bill Hickok

[@dustypendleton6694]

Bob Boze Bell. After all the news and interviews about the way that Frank Hamer and Maney Gault orchestrated the trap and assassination of Bonnie and Clyde; I find it easy to accept your theory of the taking down of Billy the Kid. It's the intelligent way to avoid a shoot out with someone who would not hesitate to kill. Well done.

[@charlesbrowngodhelpmeimiss4907]

Rest well William Bonnie pals

[@earlclue]

assassination? really?...thats how you see it?....dang

[@silverstar4289]

You make a good point. Billy was a psychopath who would kill without hesitation. He received the fate he earned.

[@robertgoulart6495]

You probably won’t see this comment as this video is three years old - but I want to say I love your you tube channel and love listening to you - great stuff

[@matthewb2923]

i am a younger kid now getting into history i love learning about it and it opens my mind to how it was back then and then now!

[@tacofingerz7247]

History is a beautiful thing. Keep diving in!

[@dannyfaircloth2679]

I have a funny fact for you my soon to be exwife is kin to John Westley harden and my grate grandfather was a Texas ranger that went after John Westley harden

[@armyvet8279]

Yeah sure

[@susanmccormick6022]

@@tacofingerz7247 Welcome,but be careful,it's addictive.

[@susanmccormick6022]

@@dannyfaircloth2679 Fascinating.

[@Didymus1of12]

My grandfather always believed the Pat Garrett shot Billy from cover underneath a bed or couch that was on the walkway (porch). I didn't know enough to believe or disbelieve his story, but I just saw a short film by a man that knew the Maxwells and his account was essentially the same. My grandad was born in 1881, went to the NM School of Mines in Socorro. Evidently he knew someone who also knew Billy and Maxwell's adopted daughter, who, I believe was Billy's girlfriend. He said she was his babysitter.

[@dennis8309]

He lied...

[@alissarobertson8840]

I had a book about old west outlaws in the mid 60's with that famous photo of the kid. My Dad noticed the loading gate on the Winchester was on the wrong side and the photo was reversed. He said Billy was right handed and now I know he was right and I took that as irrefutably proof from that day to now.

[@robertayoder2063]

We all know that its widely known

[@varanid9]

@@robertayoder2063 Any relation to Adam Yoder?

[@troyyarbrough]

My grandfather knew the Maxwell family quite well and he told me that Pat Garrett shot the wrong man by mistake and had to cover it up. Whether it's true or not... is anybody's guess. Like you said, "Nothing changes more than the past."

[@richarddemuth7077]

I BELIEVE you and I AGREE. Read Garrett's account of the shooting very carefully and also look at the 1880's photograph of the Maxwell's Fort Sumner property. His location descriptions MATCH but also IMPLY it was one of the MEXICAN rancheros he shot. An "expendable" guy nobody would apparently miss whose identity could be covered up.

[@ernstb7376]

Why would some mexican ranchworker end up in Petes bedroom at midnight and disturb him? I dont think Pete would have liked that very much.🤔

[@richarddemuth7077]

According to a 1983 interview I heard about with Pat Garrett's last surviving daughter, SHE ADMITTED that her father had TOLD HER HE DIDN'T kill Billy the Kid. Would a father LIE to UNimpress his DAUGHTER that he DIDN'T DO something he was FAMOUS for??

[@ernstb7376]

@@richarddemuth7077 Well that is interesting....there are many people saying later that he shot the wrong man...but can we belive this...Deluvina Maxwell cried and let her sorrows out and she cursed and hated Pat Garrett for many years after the killing...why spend time on that if it wasnt Billy that got killed? The jury the day after concluded that it was Billy. They cleaned him an put clothes on his body before putting him into the grave. Around 40 people attended the funeral...Jesus Silva a friend of Billy was there too...no one said it was the wrong guy...Garrett could not have been able to persue all this people to lye for the rest of their lives. And then he wrote a book about it...If Billy was around kicking it was a brave move...naaa...I think Billy died that night in fort Sumner...despite what people tend to say...

[@danielblackburn1241]

​@richarddemuth7077 she died 20 odd years before that date so I doubt there's any truth there

[@elviejodelmar2795]

I lived in Torrence County, NM, (the county just north of Lincoln County) in the early 1990's. The county phone book was only about 1/4" to 1/2" thick but used space to publish a short history of an old timer who told story of a character, Uncle Billy. who was rumored to be Billy the Kid and who always went armed. The story-teller as a young man was on horseback running in front of a rain storm and came to a sliding stop in front of Uncle Billy's house and burst into the house only to come face-to-face with a .45 in the hands of Uncle Billy.

[@jaynesager3049]

I’ve loved True West since the seventies. Every article, cover to cover, kept me riveted.

[@0lddragracer426]

I re-watched this Bob, and enjoyed it again. There is a KZbin video somewhere, that someone made testing the theory of using dimes in a shotgun. He set up a block of geletin, and a large paper target. He loaded some rounds with dimes, and then buckshot. The dimes literally scattered, and did nothing! He shot more than once, with the same results. So much for that story. Of course, the buckshot was a different story. I believe Ollinger would have tested his dime loads, had he actually been using them. That said, I think the kid gave him a load of 00 buck out of his own 10 gauge shotgun. From all accounts, Ollinger deserved it!

[@jeffreyelliott622]

Billy the Kid said Best $1.80 I ever spent !! Bob !! Quit napping on the job Bob !!!

[@angelvalle6515]

Spread him out like tularosa 😉

[@kathyjaneburke2798]

My Dad had a subscription to True West! I remember reading them, in the '70s. It gave me a true love of the "ole west". Thank you for keeping the magazine & my curiosity alive!

[@silverstar4289]

It is a treat to get Bob’s perception on whether the Kid lived to old age. He sums it up well. There may be noteworthy considering if the same belief was associated with James, and other criminals

[@arthurdietrich5182]

I own a Sports Collectibles Store. People call me for advice all the time on their stuff. I have noticed people get mad when you don't tell them what they want to hear. I always just end the conversation immediately and abruptly once I sense any hostility. Kind of like the people who get mad about their Billy the Kid pics.

[@LarryGenePate]

I totally agree with you on this!!! I never ever thought Billy was shot by Pat Garrett!!

[@aridian7787]

It’s a fallacy to say that if the kid survived then he must be Brushy Bill. Not so! The kid could have escaped and lived out his life and Brushy Bill could be an imposter also. Both CAN be true. In other words, discrediting Brushy Bill doesn’t prove the Kid died in 1882.

[@ancestorstalker1707]

I agree with you. Just like all the so called photos of him. None look like the same person. Everyone wanted a claim to fame. And the "outlaws" who came out claiming stories i don't believe either. Maybe 20-40% of what they claim. Feel strongly on the information about the sundance kid too. Jesse Evans... hardly any facts and can't even confirm what their names actually were. With Billy tho, I have to wonder with all the fame around him, how many different people claimed to be him back in 1880s for the sheer "fun" of it, which would have made his stories and adventures even more spread out. Rumors.

[@donaldoneill2117]

Died in 81 nitwit

[@attilathehun0]

Nobody is trying to prove that Billy the Kid died in 1882 he was killed in 1881.

[@44hawk28]

@@donaldoneill2117 has nothing to do with the point he was making, who in the hell is the nitwit. There was never any validation of the death of Billy the Kid. Ever. 1881 1882 1883 or ever. The story made no sense whatsoever. And it wasn't until I was doing gunfight investigations and understanding what happens in and out of gunfights and understanding that in the 1870s and 80s if somebody even semi-famous was killed there was always a photograph. Not only was Pat Garrett a friend of the Maxwell family he was a close friend of Billy the Kid. It would have been easy for Mr Bonnie to disappear. They killed anybody at the Maxwell Ranch it was probably one of the workers and they quickly buried him and covered it up.

[@VideoGameSlang]

The Kid suriving is a perfectly valid theory but Brushy Bill was 100% not Billy.

[@markbliss1311]

The top tech of that era was photography. Anyone with noteriety would have been immortalised and shown off in a pine box. Pat Garrett would have certainly been paid a reward, and would most certainly have a more lucrative book to sell.

[@jerodgriffith337]

Would love to hear more about the life of Pat Garrett, nobody really talks about him out of context of Billy the kid

[@ajdogcurr1]

You tell wonderful true stories about the old west Mr Bell. They are so interesting.

[@jlbowhunter]

If you never got to watch Bob Munden, search KZbin and watch him. Fastest draw and shot ever recorded. He is outspoken and he knew he was the best and the fastest. Anyways, he said something along the lines of back in the old west days guys were shot in the back. There were no high noon standoffs outside of a saloon like portrayed in movies. I have no doubt it was like this and I am going to get this gentleman’s book to read. But the fact that Garrett possibly shot Billy like a dog unarmed is very believable.

[@pjh3066]

Thank you. I lived in NM for over 40 years and have been to all those places you spoke of about Billy the Kid. I live in Ohio now and I miss NM.

[@jimmiethomas7194]

My great great grandmother was Odilia Maxwell. Pete’s sister. Through sayings passed down I don’t believe Billy the Kid was killed that night!

[@dks13827]

Can't wait until we can go see Bob and Marshall speak to groups, again !!!!

[@ChacoteOutdoorRecreation]

Paulita claimed in an interview that she had never dated or been involved with Billy, oddly she had a bullet wound scar to the left side of her abdomen, that some say was the first shot and went through Billy, the remaining four were chest shots as Billy turned, and before daybreak a blood-soaked down filled mattress was burned that came from Paulita’s brother’s bedroom. Jose Jaramillo married Paulita, and she had a reputation, but that bullet scar was the one thing at the center of all their arguments, it was a reminder that he was not the first one to ride that spoiled rich girl. My last issue is this, suppose this happened at your home, would you really shop for and buy a mattress the following day? And why would law enforcement run this errand, a man named Thomas McKinney purchased the new mattress and arranged immediate delivery. No one finds this odd, or the blood-soaked quilt in her hope chest thrown away after her death, believed to be and described as a birthing souvenir. No midwife would leave a mess like that.

[@ChacoteOutdoorRecreation]

Poe is the one who dragged Billy off of the bed and put the gun in one hand and a knife in the other, Garret was in shock thinking he may have killed Paulita as well, You don't need to be a genius to figure out that no one gets a shot to their chest and holds on to a pistol and a knife, but that is how that night went, crafting a story threatening a Navajo slave girl, making sure Billy had been dressed to hide the bullet wounds, especially the one in his back before he was taken to a carpenters shop for a wake. And Paulita was not seen in public for six weeks, she had a bullet wound to nurse. Poe got a new job from this, funded in part by Maxwell influence.

[@ChacoteOutdoorRecreation]

Paulita died aged 65 in Fort Sumner, New Mexico. The cause of her death was nephritis (inflammation of the kidney)

[@susanmccormick6022]

@@ChacoteOutdoorRecreation The Navajo slave girl,is that Deluvina?I wasn't aware Paulina was a spoilt madam either.Food for thought.

[@striperking6083]

Chacote Outdoor Recreation I always wondered what happened to the gun that Billy allegedly had that night . That gun should be the most sought after gun in western history . But no one brings it up . And I agree 100% that it’s not possible to hold on to a knife and a gun after getting shot in the heart area and then falling . It just doesn’t add up

[@ChacoteOutdoorRecreation]

@@striperking6083 Shooting a man in the back while he is engaging in coitus is not something to be proud of, the gun and holster rig, the mattress, the address book, wallet, pocket Watch, all disappeared as part of the cover story, the only thing I am certain of is that blood soaked quilt in Paulita's hope chest, and now it is gone.

[@kennethburnett6262]

I really loved reading True West when I was a kid. Thank you for the Wyatt Earp stories . Can't get enough of this stuff !!

[@cassie7093]

The real question should be is just how connected was Billy? Billy came into my real life living mystery in 2013 when an El Paso Police Officer advertised to people visiting the cemetery my great uncle is buried in that he was a companion to Billy. My 1st step after finding out various things was calling the social security office to look for clues on my great grandfather. He had a sideshow he travelled our country with. It was called "The Hollywood Sideshow." He was written about in a book titled "Freaks, Geeks, and Vagabonds." The story of one handshake away notables of their time is enough to keep my mind spinning and searching. As my uncle was the miner for the man over the 1st holding company in all America. This man was William Collins Whitney. His 1st wife was Flora Payne. Sister of Oliver Hazard Payne. His 2nd wife was Edith Randolph. The daughter of the Doctor who examined both Abe Lincoln and John Wilkes Booth. When I called the social security office my grandfather used both names as last names for him and his father. John Edward Sundstrom or stage name of "Johnny Howard." Trailing any of them has been a ride out of this world. :As he put his mother down as a world famous fictional character. Definitely a fluke right! Not I finally figured out the other day not only did my uncle's son date the daughter of Evangeline Crawford-Daughter of Captain Jack Crawford but that I have a picture of my great grandmother( the supposedly fictional one) in a picture with Evangeline Crawford-meaning there was more than one family member connected to the Crawford's. Then like one of the partners in my uncles oil company was a judge that had a law partner who was the attorney for Harry Ford Sinclair. The Mc Kinney Family is a tie in. But not from there. From when Billy was a kid in school. The Mc Kinney family was also connected to Collin Mc Kinney. The Mc Kinney Family had a son that worked in Tom Green county for the MS Ranch. Who was in partnership with Adam Schuster of St. Joseph MO. Whose business associates were the men who brought about "The Pony Express" The history of entanglements in my story seems to be never ending. The world famous fictional character I get the HONOR of being named after in this one life to live? Katie O'Hara as in Gone with the Wind. The connections. Figuring them out who and why they would do this to any one? Say their family never existed!? Come to find out Buffalo Bill used to live south of me here near St. Louis. Boy oh boy how about the Sierra Madre Trading Company? My uncle was involved with the quarry that provided the stone for most of the courthouses, post offices, and other buildings in Texas~ with "The Peco's Red Sandstone Company. The man who paid to say my great grandmother never existed was the grandson of Mr. Whitney. His mom was Helen Hay. The daughter of John Hay. Abe'synopsis

[@TheReal1953]

You have a lot of interesting information. You should do some sort of a flowchart to explain all these connections. And to your credit, you should show accurate provenance whenever you can.

[@cassie7093]

I have a blog that is dedicated to the American people. I used to be one of America's top mortgage collectors til I found out my employer lied when they told me I had signatory authority to settle or sell mortgage notes for both Chase and Citi. Thereafter I lost my job and the only way I could be responsible is if I could get honest biz done. Then I found out I never needed a way as if they didn't lie to us everyday i"d be a billionaire. But money doesn't make a person. In America if you go to court with a way to be responsible they don't want you to be. The judges are full of bias with no impartiality. I faced two separate federal recusals back to back here in the Eastern District of Missouri then faced another corrupt judge. We've figured out two separate ways to build our families instead of coming after people like this. DNA tracking isn't allowed that I"m aware of. Neither is theft! At any rate everything may not be on my blog but if info is requested I can get it.I also have a video. Provenance can be verified :) kzbin.info/www/bejne/bmiTkpmLqpuViZI mortgagefraudclosure.blogspot.com

[@Snarkapotamus]

Yeah, but where does Kevin Bacon figure into all of that?

[@TheReal1953]

@@Snarkapotamus 🤣

[@415s30]

I'm directly related to Pat Garrett, I have always had a passing interest in the subject. We have a few old revolvers from back then because we had ranchers in the family.

[@thatsmytwocents4372]

Family Stories ???

[@larryviator7925]

the irony here for me is that both billy and jesse james were unarmed at their times of death. both being on the run and yet both caught with their guards down.

[@maxhammer4067]

Yep they got killed in there pajamas

[@dks13827]

@@maxhammer4067 their

[@susanmccormick6022]

Good point.

[@44hawk28]

Let me preface this by saying that because of the John Kennedy assassination I learned an awful lot about ballistics and how firearms at how bullets work and subsequently the physics and physical realities of gunfights. I never understood the Pat Garrett creation of the death of Billy the Kid. It still doesn't make sense that he just decided to shoot somebody that he couldn't possibly have known who they were when he shot them. Then he doesn't even go to the trouble of verifying the death by having the body photographed. That is hugely unusual for that period of time. As a result that the very best I can tell you that Billy the Kid did not die the way by Pat Garrett, a close friend of his, said he did. Whether or not he lived in obscurity because Pat Garrett killed whoever he chose to kill that night is a completely different question. There are people who knew Billy the Kid who verified that bushy bill was Billy the Kid he had the same scars and the same places and he had the body build that definitely was consistent with Billy the Kid. The photograph comparison doesn't work for me because I've seen people that in their 40s change their facial structure enough to look enough different that their photographs will not align. Surprisingly, I did study the background and verification of the croquet photo. And that isn't Billy the Kid in that photograph, that Billy the Kid had an identical twin. I believe that photo to be absolutely genuine. The thought that the second photo of Billy the Kid is going to sell for twice as much as the tintype sold for is a Fool's dream.

[@dks13827]

Was there a photographer in Ft Sumner ? ( sure, I wish there was )

[@LuisGomez-pg2qk]

AT 44 HAWK -IM NOT DISRESPECTING U BUT HOW IN THE HELL WOULD U KNOW WHAT KIND OF BALLISTICS TOOK PLACE THAT NIGHT WHEN U WEREN'T THERE OR EXAMINED KIDS BODY WOUNDS.I WISH PEOPLE WOULD JUS COME OUT N SAY IT "I DON'T WANT BILLY DYING OR THAT HE'S STILL ALIVE IN NEW MEXICO" JESUS, MARY N JOSEPH!! .FT SUMNER IS SMALL ASS TOWN MUCH SMALLER BACK IN 1882 FILLED WITH HUNDREDS OF MEXICANS THAT DIDN'T LIKE GARRETT OR THE LAW, PERFECT PLACE FOR THE KID TO HIDEOUT UNFORTUNATELY HE WAS SHOT IN DARK, NO PICTURES IT WAS SMALL TOWN N GARRETT PROBABLY WANTED TO GET HELL OUTTA DODGE ( I WOULD'VE) IN A HURRY. KID NEVER POPPED UP AGAIN BECAUSE HE WAS DEAD.IVE NEVER SEEN A PICTURE OF WILD BILL HICKOCK DEAD YET HE TOOK ALOTTA PICTURES OR MAYBE HE LIVED TO OLD AGE OF 100 N IT WASN'T HIM KILLED BY MCCALL- JESUS PEOPLE WILL BELIEVE ANYTHING!!

[@Sheltowee1775]

I’m a pastor. I wish I had Bob’s gift of storytelling! I’d pack ‘em in the church.

[@olskool3967]

i am a preacher. you don't need to be a "story teller" just preach the word. and no you won't pack them in. but the ones that will be there won't be there for a story, they will be there for living water,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[@hobiecat901]

Bob, You are such a Great teller of these Western Stories. I am going to buy the Book of the Saga of Billy the Kid. Will be looking for Your Book as well. Thanks.

[@MrSpacejase]

This is one of the greatest chat style vids with awesome backdrop ever!

[@corycole3474]

The confessionals Episode 307 The man who died twice. I started doing my own research after I listened to these guys and Holy shit yall. The truth is crazier than you could ever imagine.

[@felipevaldez2151]

1. As I stated earlier, I’m fused to your narrative! 2. There’s going to be a Young Guns III? Sumbidge! 3. I’m working on a story about a relative who’s passed about ten years ago, but he shared his adventures with me about life and exploits during the Cristero uprising in Mexico. Your storytelling method is very inspiring.

[@nigelpearson7617]

Why was there no photo of the body which was the practiced at the time

[@danielblackburn1241]

Mainly practiced in 1890s not 1881

[@boblevey]

Not sure you know this but Koch built a replica in a western town in Paonia CO about 10yr ago which I did most of the interior finishes on. I also worked for David in Aspen

[@noahcorreiaphotography]

Just bought my copy today. Keep up the good work Bob!

[@jamesperuski2217]

Nowadays if billy the kid would’ve done the same things people would think he’s a monster but to have it happen so long ago people love him

[@kevbullock8313]

Unfortunately this mystery will never be solved..I am 50/50 with the situation...Thankyou for sharing👍👍🇦🇺

[@kieranjones433]

I’m such a fan of billy the kid I watch so many documentary’s on him it’s unreal! I read so much about him as well, best film about him was young guns! It’s unreal how much that film had so much real facts about he’s killings with bell, rob loads it’s unreal

[@bidensucks6806]

Great movie! The Kid is a great movie also.

[@susanmccormick6022]

Kieran Jones: I loved Young Guns too.But accurate it was not!Wonder if Billy would've recognised himself.

[@henryriddle7891]

It's my life dream to see the places and artifacts that you've saw in the old west over the years. I'm from east Tennessee but really interested in the old west, thank you for this.

[@stanleybest8833]

You're correct that history and humor don't necessarily mix. I'm dismayed that you never picked up on the Billy the Kid story. Henry Mc Carty was hated by postmaster Ash Upson long before the Lincoln County Regulators, before John Tunstall, and even before Mc Carty/Antrim ever fled New Mexico. Henry is described in Robert Utley's book as handsome, which is a Victorian catchword for distinctly ugly but endearing. When Mc Carty surrendered his family photos to photography collector Sally Chisum, there were teenage paper photos of Henry, taken hard off center, in Victorian politeness, to hide the alignment of his eyes, ears, and nose. Upson's animal hatred spread to friend, Lew Wallace, territorial governor, who imported buffalo hunter Pat Garrett, famous for strangling Indian children. Wallace upgraded Garrett to Roman Gladiator sadism. Now look at the deaths of Bill Bowdre, and especially, hitherto, Tom O'Folliard, as they were candidates of the Roman Chicken Chase, which is why Billy the Kid can never be a cheerful movie. In the 1870's and 1880's, Henry Mc Carty or anybody could hardly scratch their bellybuttons without winding up in a male newspaper, Hispanic lady stories, or a government document. 140+ years later, pictures, library memoirs, and recorded stories emerge intact from the 1880's pulp fiction and depression era hype.

[@alisonwonderland5610]

I think that authors always want to find something new about a famous person so they can sell their books. It's the same thing that happens with men like Hitler from people who say he escaped. They want to "keep legends alive." But anyone who's really studied the personality and actions of Hitler knows that his biggest fear was being captured alive by his enemies and humiliated in front of the whole world. Hitler was also not someone who could remain obscure since he also had a desire for power and fear of obscurity. So escaping and remaining obscure was untenable for men like Hitler. So in order to get the truth about famous people, an author has to study that person's personality and motives, not just interview witnesses since a lot of "facts' about historical figures also comes from gossip and a desire to embellish their stories.

[@davesteller6301]

In the past week I've watched so many different videos on Mr. Bonnie. And each has their own take. All brilliant. I would love for all these people to get together, in good cheer, and have a discussion, or maybe even a debate, over some of these details...like did Billy really live on.

[@richardbeaton7324]

Loved this man please do more live chats answering questions ! Much love and respect from the UK.

[@harryasstruman3101]

That's a nice stove imagine buying that from the Sears catalog and having it delivered straight to the farm. Now with the way the supply chain is going we can't even get one at the store

[@davidlarned4315]

Concerning Bob Olinger using dimes in his shotgun. I don't know if he did or not but I saw a video of someone shooting a side of hog ( i believe it was hog ) and many of the dimes bounced off with only a few penetrating. Dimes did not perform as well as buckshot,,,

[@jimmyknight1609]

I enjoy listening to you speak, I enjoy the magazine, I thank you for your time and knowledge, much appreciation!

[@JoyCelebrating]

You’re the coolest historian I’ve ever seen on KZbin and I would love to get the chance to meet you🤠

[@clintperry799]

No one knows , now days how he died. Sad but true.

[@ettaplace6716]

Love cave creek .. and ur program !😬 So much to learn about the old west and is many colorful characters !!!

[@rosemaryfarell5264]

Love the Legend and Stories of the Kid. Without doubt my FAVOURITE Old West Hero. So much to admire about this Young Man. Id love to believe he survived.

[@Gutslinger]

Hero?

[@susanmenegus5543]

Me to 👍 I always wanted to believe he lived to a old age. 🤠

[@earlclue]

huh?, he was a gambling killer& thief, his name "kid", just attached to all "kids"

[@222fireant]

I never was interested in the old west but your videos have made me a fan.

[@rebcotton3679]

I just started watching your videos and I love them

[@MarkCartret]

A dog doesn’t run around creating mischief and murdering people. No a dog would have deserved better than the kid could have expected. Fugitives, felons and murderers lead a life on the edge of society and those that hunt them generally offer them the opportunity to surrender themselves peacefully. The kid had many such opportunities to turn himself in, and or amend his ways, move down to South America, and start a new life-free of crime. He didn’t and he was eventually caught by law enforcement. Sometimes when you live by the sword you die by the sword. Justice served.

[@chrisb8655]

You're partially right. Billy had agreed to a pardon from the governor, but the governor didn't keep his word. So, he tried, but they were crooked as well. That said, he was foolish to stay around the area & not bolt for Mexico. That was set arrogant, & obviously cost him his life.

[@bluesteeltraining]

The similar strategy used by Garret when he and his deputies killed Tom O’Foliard.

[@johnpearson429]

Thank you for your stories Mr. Bell

[@susanmccormick6022]

I am glad the Kid wasn't totally forgotten.And I don't think he would have gone outlaw if his mother lived.Or if his step father had been a true father to him.

[@clemdawg4360]

I highly doubt Garret killed Billy the Kid. Come on. No death photo, the original paper work on Billy being killed is still missing. I can go on and on of all the documentation that makes it look like Garret killed the wrong man. A Mexican with a beard. Where's Billy's missing pistol? One report says Billy had a knife. The other, that he had a gun other than a 44. Whereas the missing gun? What about all the people who said Brushy Bill Roberts was Billy the Kid? Too much opinion, not enough research. Check out Alias Billy The Kid on KZbin. He does an excellent job of giving documentation and details.

[@davidroberts5577]

So as I sit and watch I am impressed and truly enjoy your post. I'm looking at a a picture of Butch Cassidy as you are talking about Billy's death. What's your feelings on Butch and his death? Just wondering 🤔

[@melvinmayfield470]

Mr. Bell, as always, Great Stuff! Many Thanks!

[@erwinadams6848]

Nothing show exactly. What happened other than the people there. I just still want to know why the deputy could not identify Billy if most people in that community knew most every one.

[@earlclue]

i was always stuck on the part about garret being able to walk into dudes house &bedroom, and sit on edge of his bed, no dogs? wide open door?..alot was going on for him to be in such a deep sleep, with front door wide open

[@davidellis4416]

Hello Bob, from Bethungra Australia in 2013 I was in San tan valley visiting my daughter, dam I wish I knew you were around the corner.

[@ericwilliams6915]

Fact is nobody today knows what really happened Garrett was a crook and liar so is it possible he killed the wrong man yes is it possible he killed Billy sure is anyone claiming to be a expert on this issue today is not they can only retell stories they have heard

[@planca3430]

pat garret and billy the kid were friends actually. i think garrett only said he killed the kid was to get his bounty and get the law off his back. and is also why the kid when to Texas and hid out there.

[@JesusGarcia-cs9wl]

I enjoy listening to Bob talk about the old West. But all the recurring ads in this video made it unlistenable. I don't know if anything can be done about it. But it's a shame. It's like trying to enjoy a bowl of ice cream with dead flies in it. Ruins the whole experience.

[@albertramones3842]

Skip to the end of the video then click the replay arrow. Adverts gone

[@stevensmith1911]

Don't be so cheap. Pay for premium youtube and all videos are commercial free.

[@JesusGarcia-cs9wl]

@@stevensmith1911 Steven Smith works for KZbin. 😯

[@HootOwl513]

AdBlocker is free. No cmcls.

[@clivemacken552]

The only thing that throws me is why did they bury him so quick. Would they not take pics etc of him dead as it be a big thing seems odd.

[@manuelkong10]

I mean this is SO Filled with bob's "beliefs" ....despite the girl saying she didn't have an affair with Billy, he BELIEVES its real, he BELIEVES Pat told Billy "I'm gonna be a lawman now and I ain't gonna cut you no breaks"with nothing to back it up he BELIEVES the last thing Billy thought "while laying on the floor dying" (how lurid) was of his mother this is JUST the stuff of dime novels, penny dreadfuls and cheap western novels. "Billy's mother was a WONDERFUL woman" and in the same breath "we don't know that much about her".... It's just picking and choosing and dismissing what you don't like and aggrandizing what you do... I mean come on people flush the toilet already

[@musketbal]

I was a police officer in the late 80's and early 90's. I heard one of my bestfriends in high school was selling drugs. I did not know it for sure, however I decided to have a talk with him. I said, " terry, I've heard you might be selling drugs. If you are you better stop because if I get an arrest warrant I'll arrest you." Terry said " you know me, I would never sell drugs. Who ever told you that is a lyre." About a month later Terry was arrested in a task force raid for selling drugs. I never felt sorry for him because he had a chance to change the direction of his life. Sadly it took his younger brother to die of a drug overdose to change his life direction in a positive way.

[@susanmccormick6022]

All I know about Billy's mother is she was a well liked,hard working woman who came out west due to tb.Pity she ever married a second time though.Horrible man.

[@williampinner1893]

I agree with Mckinney's version of the killing of the Kid. Pat Garret was an ambush killer. When the boys rode into town that snowy night Garret and the pose just opened up on the group mortally wounding one of the regulatorsTom O'flanery. The boys hauled out and wound up at the rock cabin @ Stinking Springs. With the snow it was easy to track them. Garrets posse laid low out side & when someone walked out to feed the horses they just opened up mortally woundind Charley Boudre. Apparentley Charley was wearing the Kids sombrero or one like it. The point I'm making is Garret just shot first from cover & I personally find that either cowardly or smart in terms of his quarry. I think if we knew the absolute truth about history in general, we would have a slightly different take on things. Keep up the good work. William

[@ScoopDogg]

would love to know if you've seen the Red Dead Redemption console games and what do you think about them. They Introduced a new generation to Westerns, me included and I bet helped in the sales of your books too lol. love your artwork and stories you write.

[@clarencefancher9091]

The only history that you know is what you see with your own eyes everything else is hear say and that's the truth God Bless you

[@kbchaffin53]

Billy the Kid and Dillinger became American myth for the same reasons: 1) they pulled stunningly amazing jailbreaks against all odds. The American people love that kind of underdog story, and 2) they had very charismatic names, "Billy the Kid" has a ring to it and sounds boyish and innocent and maybe even swashbuckling. Dillinger sounds like Derringer and also Ballenger, which I think was also an outlaw name. That's why they linger in the collective memory. About his death, I never believe conspiracy theories and think they're surely a waste of time.

[@Sheltowee1775]

It might not have been your idea but I hope you see that people LOVE these FB/YT chats you do.

[@andrewbobro3374]

I think that your take is more worldly and thus more realistic, but i would like to see a debate with the " original" view with someone who also knows their stuff. You do a great job by the way!

[@hettro-cv6082]

Brad Meltzer's show " decoded" show about that Billy the kid was not dead. In that show it said that Pat Garret may have helped Billy the kid escape from jail, why then did Pat Garret shoot Billy? How much time past between the kid escaping from jail and Pat Garret killing the kid? This does not make sense! If Pat shot the wrong person, why did he say he killed the kid if he helped the kid escape from jail before? And If Pat Garret lied about shooting the wrong man what made Pat Garret think that no one would question it? Very interesting!

[@thejakefromstatefarm6768]

I feel like he was lured there because you would go in a man bedroom with no light in the middle of the night if you didn’t go there to help him or protect him from some sort of threat. I think garitte hid in the room and pete told someone to go tell billy to come there for whatever reason they used and when he walked in and ask what the problem was garitte shot him.

[@susanmccormick6022]

The usual story is Billy went to cut some meat & grew suspicious something was going on.So he went to ask Pete about it Garrett was supposed to be sitting on Pete's bed in a darkened room.As Billy walked in asking "Quien es?"Maxwell whispered "That's him!"& Garrett shot blind.Its supposed to be that Pete objected to Paulina Maxwells involvement with Billy.I also think Paulina & Deluvina Maxwell's reaction after the shooting,suggests it was The Kid who was killed.Else they were very fine actresses.Nor do I believe Brushy Bill was Billy.The Kid spoke fluent Spanish & Irish Gaelic.Roberts was almost illiterate & got things wrong when questioned.It is very odd though,that there were no pictures & Garrett never claimed his reward.I also heard The Kid,or whoever the victim was,was buried in a shirt too big for him.RIP Billy.

[@thejakefromstatefarm6768]

@@susanmccormick6022 I’ve read everything there is to read about the kid. I just read george coe’s book. I’ve been a billy the kid fanatic all my life so I’m aware of the official story. I have no doubt he was killed that night and i do believe most of the offical story is true. I just feel like it’s been “cleaned up” to some degree which caused all the confusion that gets spun into the crazy conspiracy’s. I just think it was a set up and it was done in a cowardly way so they altered their statements of the events. If you just showed up to ask if you had seen a guy, what are the odds that the guy you’re looking for come walking through the door…backwards? And backs up all the way to you? I’ve read garrettes book and poes book too. I just don’t but all of the story. I read the book about brushy bill too. Just to see if i could figure out who he really was because he definitely was not the kid. He was probably a guy with a similar life. I think he was probably an outlaw but just an average unknown outlaw.

[@chrismcmaster5964]

@@susanmccormick6022 brushy could speak fluent Spanish. There are interviews of people stating that. Best look it up before making false accusations. He was also literate.

[@patrickluchycky1172]

Grew up in Santa fe late seventies and eighties. I'm the son of a tailor. The first time I saw the Billy the kid photo standing with him with the rifle next to him, I immediately knew that the photo was backwards. The shirt placket and the buttons and the belt buckle are the proof that anyone can see. (The pistol is on the right side, but that doesn't prove he was strictly right handed. He might have been left handed but was probably ambidextrous with pistols and other things.) I would tell this to the old timers and history buffs as a 13 year old and had lots of fun watching grown men get angry because they weren't smart enough to figure it out. Yeah, lots of fun with that one. Have to disagree with this man regarding the kids death. Brushy Bill Roberts is the kid. His hips, shoulders, ears, nose, skull shape match up even throughout the years. Every law enforcement officer would have loved the notoriety, fame and glory capturing the kid. Garrett didn't collect the reward either. Knowing about the Santa fe ring, Lincoln County wars, the governor's reaction, etc, it's almost certain they let the kid go. Every law enforcement officer wants a trophy picture with the outlaw they caught and killed. Every Leo wants to be famous and document the collar and capture. Check out what ralph Epperson has to say regarding the kid. He's nailed it. Sidenote, I have a female friend related to butch Cassidy. She could pass for butche's daughter, sister or twin. Put a long, straight haired, dark wig on butch and that's exactly what she looks like. Poor girl. I'm happy she found a good man to marry her. The whole family knows butch and Sundance made it back to the states and lived a long, quiet life. I will have to check out this fellows book. I also have heard villa lived and died in New Mexico after Pershing and all. Wouldn't be surprised. Ps, now maybe the kid wore a gun holster on his right, as it was hard to find, buy, get, a left handed holster. Quite uncommon then, as the vast majority of people are right handed. Lots of guys are ambidextrous with guns, rifles, baseball batting, throwing etc. I am right handed but shoot rifles left handed, which was as natural from day one for me. When it comes to pistols, I am pretty much ambidextrous as is my brother. Quite a few of my friends are the same as well. Very competent with both hands, as I am sure the kid was as well. Plus posing for pictures isn't always accurate. Long live the kid!!!

[@patrickluchycky1172]

@Howard Polk just like everyone else. Governor Wallace, pat Garrett, 90 percent of the territory, you, yo momma, etc.

[@tacofingerz7247]

Nobody really knows about butch cassidys fate, nobody. Not even people who have dedicated their whole lifes on the matter and yet here you are claiming to have a friend related to him with an uncanny resemblace even to her looks. Nah man, just nah. Oh and when it comes to Villa? Im from Chihuahua, the state not the city, and have had lots of relatives living in Parral, the city where he was killed, theres his hacienda and even the car with them bullet holes. We dont have any type of theories regarding his death, it is well known and established, and yet I have my doubts. There are things that we just don't know.

[@patrickluchycky1172]

@@tacofingerz7247 negative. I know his family and I have to respect what they say. There's other evidence of seen on the internet that corroborates what I've been told. As for villa, they can put holes holes in a car and say anything they want. He wss funded and backed by people with money to do what he did. He just didn't do it and couldn't have done it on his own. He probably survived from what I know. It's easy to come up with a story in the papers to give to the public. Easy to hide back then too. Some organization backed him, covered him, funded, etc. Probably communist as they were funding revolutionaries in Europe at that time and were in Mexico at the same influencing politics there. Bolsheviks such as Trotsky and others were heavily in Mexico before ww1 and after and that doesn't include nazis who there as well. Mexico is set up as a republic but its politicians, intellectuals. Business, has been pushing communist values on the country since napoleon second or third?, and especially around 1900, when communist organizations started to make a more active effort in Europe at that time. The wealthy elite at the top and the poor on the bottom. Easy to control and exploit. Villa probably survived in my opinion. He wasn't just a pissed off, angry guy without a plan. He was a revolutionary backed and doing somebody's bidding.

[@patrickluchycky1172]

Howard Polk wussed out and took his smart-ass reply off the comments. Not surprised as he is stupid and his mother knows it.

[@buddylobos5277]

Today on that corner in Santa Fe is EVANGELO'S BAR. There is a brass plaque that was moved from the sidewalk to the building wall. Same bar "Bad Blake' (Jeff Bridges in Crazy Heart) and I have played. LOL.

[@ronniebishop2496]

Well what’s so interesting is for years people thought Billy the Kid was left handed, and I thought it was so strange that even people who made motion pictures for a living didn’t know that the picture of Billy the Kid was a negative? That’s borderline stupid. lol. So it doesn’t surprise me at all that we still don’t know how Billy actually died? If I put many people in the same boots of Pat Garrett I can see how he knew there was a lot of money in him creating a tall tale that he killed Billy The Kid Lol. Lots of people would do the same thing especially in show business. But did Pat have someone from back east encouraging him to write a book of fiction?

[@stevenellers1939]

I was 12 in 1963 when I first saw the famous picture of Billy. I immediately noticed the rifle was wrong but everyone I said it to laughed it off. It wasn’t until decades later that 12 year old know nothing was proven right. Time tends to set history right and this but one example.

[@Grace-tc1lq]

Did that not turn out to be the negative- mirror image?

[@NickAlati]

Bob Bell, great Radio Face lol. Nice to see you again!

[@spacecatboy2962]

HELLO BOB

[@THEBLIZZARDSIX]

I never bought the story either of how he died, he was more careful than that.

[@1lthrnk]

Another part of history of Billy the kid, his mother. Catherine (Devine) Antrim (abt. 1830 - 1874) ... Wife of Patrick McCarty before moving to New Mexico she was a very powerful person in Wichita Ks. She owned her own property ran a laundry mat and she was the only woman to sign the petition that helped incorporate the town.

[@brianramsey3824]

Just to clarify the Kid died when people said he did but not by Garrett?

[@outdoorlife5396]

I like the story, where the kid got away and lived in TX. I don't believe it, but I like it. I also like were Butch and Sundance got away, maybe. Or the one were they killed the wrong guy and he was not Jesse James. It is true maybe. I also like the stories about Pirate treasure and Confederate gold. Is it true, maybe, but I am a sucker for a good mystery. Some of this stuff is up to question, will ever know the truth, I would bet not

[@kellievenable9372]

My grandpa grew up in southwest Arkansas/southeast Oklahoma. He use to talk about Jesse James family and visiting his mother often when he was child.

[@CSAFD]

Irony: Jessie James shot and killed unarmed by Robert Ford who he considered a friend. Bonney shot and killed unarmed by Patrick Garrett who he considered a friend. Hickok shot and killed by Jack McCall who he hardly knew at all.

[@ernestaguirre4300]

In Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid, Sam Peckinpah had James Coburn as Pat Garrett ambush Billy (Kris Kristofferson) in the bedroom just as Bob describes

[@nadapuesnada7716]

It would not be wrong to have called that film "The Tragedy of Pat Garrett". It's the story of a man who sold his soul and died when the devil came to collect the debt.

[@blueduck5589]

If Billy the Kid had gone by his born name, Henry McCarty, nobody would know or care who he was.

[@erwinadams6848]

I would like to know why the deputy would say it doesn't like Bill the kid and was buried before anyone could say it was or wasn't the kid