Trussville church of Christ Live Debate Stream

[@dwbid42]

"Now I'm showing that he was already justified legally in Genesis 12" Wow I wish there had been inspired CoC writers writing the Bible because everyone of the ones that did write it got it wrong. They were all ignorant and uninspired enough to acknowledge Abraham's works but then turn around and say that he was justified by belief. Even James got it wrong once!! Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
 Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 
judicial justification Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
 Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 
 Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 
 Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 
 Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 
 Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 
Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. 
 Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

[@bellcoolmountain6650]

@2:34:06 Traever admits his religion teaches regeneration which is literally Born again comes BEFORE faith!!! He does not believe in the gospel is the power to save,, Romans 1:16. He believes WE ARE SAVED BEFORE WE BELIEVE THE GOSPEL!!!!

[@horwath2005]

It’s amazing how many people fail to see the variety of works discussed in the Bible. The only reason to see them all the same is to force an interpretation that doesn’t exist, while ignoring all the contradictions it creates. Notice how many phrases Trevor uses that don't exist in the Bible. That's because the entire argument he is making is a theological argument, not a Biblical argument.

[@IAMTHELORDOFLUCIFER]

Isaiah 14:12-15 Rev 20:10 who can argue with that?

[@bellcoolmountain6650]

EXCELLENT work brother in Christ. I dont know His name but he exposed the error the contradictory and illogical doctrine known as calvinism, reformed theology

[@anthonyford6655]

Teach my beloved brother Donahue. Yes he is a follower of "CALVINISM."

[@dwbid42]

"belief is a work" absolutely 100% wrong - belief is THE work period. John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is THE work of God, that ye BELIEVE on him whom he hath sent. Huge difference between "a" and "the" as the following verse shows. Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. We must allow ourselves to be persuaded to believe and put our faith in the work of Jesus on the cross.

[@montyeason3973]

So, according to Taever, works prove your faith. and they do. But that begs the question according to Traevers no conditions to be met teaching, THen how can you be saved by faith alone ? Faith alone means without anything else. No works ever needed, nothing salvific past the point of just believing alone, ever! . However, If subsequent works are needed in order to prove faith was real then it can't be salvation by faith alone, at least not in the sense Treavor means it. If I say I will give you a million dollars and you never have to do anything ever to receive it, just believe in your heart I'm giving it to you, and if you try to do something to receive it other than just believe I'm giving it to you, you forfeit it, and then later on I say to you, Oh, but if you don't do something after you receive it in your heart then you never really had it, you'd think I was nuts. THat's Treavors position. Kinda squirrely.

[@robbyeversole7682]

35:56 Here Pat has been destroying the Faith Only position and the "toothless dog" @TheApologeticDog, comes along and says "Great Job Treaver... There is not an intellectually honest bone in Jeremiah's body... But thats been exposed publickly by Travis and Aaron.

[@dwbid42]

"you had people in John 12:42-43 that had FAITH but did not repent" I don't see where they didn't repent. They didn't confess Jesus, Peter not only wouldn't confess him but denied him three times, but after the resurrection he was very willing to be martyred. Two of these men were Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea. Be careful when you throw stones - Mat 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

[@alexgaranzuay7537]

I don't know who's the first speaker is but he didn't even introduced himself second he talks too fast it's hard to understand them third he really didn't explain what he's going to be talking about in a clear way so all three right there first needs to be done

[@billmartin3561]

Debates like this prove that sola scriptura is FALSE.

[@alexgaranzuay7537]

We don't care how much you have to read off your notes or how much time you got because of that it makes you become antsy so you need to correct that also

[@alexgaranzuay7537]

In other words you're too general people don't listen to preachers that are too general

[@Savedtotheuttermost1978]

What a CoC word salad.. read the truth and deny it at the same time.. good luck

[@dwbid42]

Rom 10:9 èav ομολογησης εν τω στοματι σου Κυριον Ιησουν και πιστευσης εν τη καρδια σου ότι ο θεος αυτον ηγειρεν εκ νεκρών σωθηση If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is the Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. ONE WAY TO LOOK AT THIS TEXT IS TO CONSIDER THE CONFESSION WITH THE MOUTH AS THE GROUND OR EVIDENCE UPON WHICH THE INFERENCE "YOU SHALL BE SAVED" IS BASED. BUT IT IS NOT THE CAUSE. THE CAUSE IS IN THE SECOND PART OF THE CONDITION, "IF YOU BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART. ..." It is not necessary to treat each protasis as bearing the same relationship to the apodosis. Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics - An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament - Daniel B. Wallace Pg 686

[@robbyeversole7682]

Before you get to Romans 10...read Romans 1..."By whom we have recieved grace and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH among all nations, for His name" In Acts 2, those from Rome were there on Pentecost day. They were Baptized for the remission of their sins (Romans 6).

[@dwbid42]

@@robbyeversole7682​​⁠what on earth does Romans 1, 2 & 6 have to do with my comment on confession in Romans 10

[@dwbid42]

"repentance is just as much a work as baptism" Nonsense - 2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh (produces) repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh (produces) death. Look up the Greek word translated "worketh" it means brings about or produces and it's used twice in this verse. How can anyone think that Repentance, belief or faith is a work? They are not something you DO. They are something you are after they happen. You'll never hear anyone say I'm going to believe or repent or put my faith in Jesus tomorrow because these are not things you just DO. These things happen in the twinkling of an eye when the light of the gospel finally turns on for you and they don't happen one at a time they all happen simultaneously. I know what John 6:29 says but how else was Jesus supposed to word it. Belief is only a work in the sense that you have to allow yourself to be persuaded.

[@robbyeversole7682]

@dwbid42 belief, repentance and confession are either works that you do, or they are something done to/for you by God. If God does them to/for you, it is not you who do them... then those that don't, isn't their fault...it's because God didn't do it for them. The sad thing is, that is exactly the god of Calvinism- and he is a monster.

[@dwbid42]

@@robbyeversole7682 According to the Greek grammar confession isn't necessary. Repentance, belief and faith are NOT something you DO. Think about it have you ever heard of someone saying I'm going to believe later today or I'm going to repent in the morning or I'll put my faith in Jesus next week?? No you haven't because that's not what happens. You believe, repent and put your faith in Jesus when the Gospel light goes on in your heart and mind and it happens in the twinkling of an eye and they become what you are. I am NOT A CALVINIST.

[@jamesfitch4569]

Gwendolyn Thomas catching the archive ❤️😃

[@IAMTHELORDOFLUCIFER]

Can someone believe in their works and Jesus at the same time? Is that like being double minded? God is mighty and powerful and perfect. And all our works are filthy rags, all our changes too. Even a civil servant like say, a police officer, has the humility to admit that. But the “church of Christ” rarely seems to be able to admit the following. “I am a sinner in constant need of the grace and mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is THE WAY.” The “church of christ” is perhaps very much like the church of Sardis, instead of the church of Philadelphia.

[@lynncantrell2782]

Baptism is the work of God not of ourselves!

[@IAMTHELORDOFLUCIFER]

@@lynncantrell2782 thou hast said but the church of the writings of Paul may not be able to blame the writings of Paul

[@nickt.7305]

Baptism is for the remission of sins. However, this doesn’t mean that we aren’t in constant need of Jesus’ grace and mercy after baptism. We still sin and ask for forgiveness after we’re baptized. I’ve never met anyone in the church of Christ that doesn’t acknowledge this. (1 John 1:8-10)

[@IAMTHELORDOFLUCIFER]

@@nickt.7305 Suffer it to be so for now. The church of Paul may go their way.

[@tiavee]

Jesus commanded his apostles, instructing them to "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age" (Matthew 28:19-20). Additionally, he directed his disciples to "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:15-16). These passages clearly highlight Jesus' view of baptism as crucial for salvation.

[@jamesfitch4569]

Trever claims that he is a follower of Christ yet he refuses to obey Christ commandment of baptism. I wonder who he thinks commanded baptism for the forgiveness of sins if it wasn’t Christ. Unbelievable how anyone can misunderstand such a simple commandment and say that they are followers and believers of Christ!!

[@CWC_Apologetics]

You don't think he was baptized by immersion?

[@jamesfitch4569]

@@CWC_Apologetics if he was it’s not according to scripture because he was not baptized for the forgiveness of his sins because he believes that he is saved by faith alone. That’s what this debate is about!

[@bellcoolmountain6650]

@@jamesfitch4569 hello sister! Haven't seen you for awhile on truth with proof

[@jamesfitch4569]

@@bellcoolmountain6650 hello. Sometimes I miss it but I’m still very much a part of it. I still watch truth with proof 😃

[@bellcoolmountain6650]

@@jamesfitch4569 wonderful, I love you so much sister, its late here 1:00 am. I better get some sleep. Goodnight

[@tiavee]

The Bible indicates that baptism is a plea to God for mercy, where the only active "work" is performed by God, who removes our sins (Colossians 2:12). During baptism, God is the one doing the work, while humans take a passive role, allowing someone else to immerse them in water "in the name of the Lord" (Acts 10:47-48; 8:36-38). Through faith in Jesus, we undergo immersion, seeking forgiveness and committing to a new beginning (born of water and Spirit), rising to live in "newness of life." Baptism is not a human accomplishment to boast about before God. It is entirely an act of faith in Jesus, and refusing baptism signifies a lack of faith in Him.

[@TheApologeticDog]

TRAEVER, YOU DID AN AMAZING JOB!!! Soli Deo Gloria

[@bellcoolmountain6650]

He did admit his religion is salvation through disobedience to Gods commandments and that he is regenerated i.e. born again BEFORE one believes in the gospel.

[@TheApologeticDog]

@@bellcoolmountain6650 nope, you are obviously COC and do not understand justification by faith alone

[@bellcoolmountain6650]

@@TheApologeticDog @2:34:06 That is exactly what he taught therefore believes. It is you who doesn't understand your doctrine . If you understood it you would have realized long ago that it cannot be understood. Impossible to make the illogical logical

[@bellcoolmountain6650]

Traever said word for word, quote " regeneration precedes your faith" You calvininists always make the accusation that others do not understand Calvinism.

[@bellcoolmountain6650]

​@@TheApologeticDog I have a question for you, Can I come to faith then get sick and die without obeying the gospel to be baptized Acts 10:47-48 and go to heaven? Salvation through disobedience to Gods commandments

[@dwbid42]

"works - conditions - obedience" This kind of talk is total NONSENSE. You can call A WORK whatever you want and it's still a WORK. Your boss hired you on the condition that you'd work 40 hours a week for him and do as he asks you to do . Did he have to hire you at all??? Absolutely 100% no he didn't, but If you come to work Friday looking for a paycheck then all he should tell you is "I didn't have to hire you and all you have done this week is obeyed what I asked you to do and met the condition that you'd work 40 hours so seeing as you haven't actually done any WORK I'm not giving you a paycheck!!" I believe you'd be just a little disappointed. If God or anyone else tells you that if you do this I'll give you this then once you do it he owes it to you. God doesn't hold us to a standard higher than his standard. He most definitely didn't have to tell the Israelites that he'd bring the walls of Jericho down if they marched around the city as he told them to do but once he said if you do this I'll do this he obligated himself.

[@MillerBB32]

If someone read the New Testament for the first time without any influence from man, they would understand clearly that you have to be baptized (along with several other things, including faith) to be saved. Denying that is “total NONSENSE.”

[@MillerBB32]

Traever kept saying that when the apostles limited what was required for salvation, then it is limited. That too is NONSENSE. Any Bible student knows that is not how you handle God’s word on ANY topic.

[@MillerBB32]

Traever says that the entire book of Galatians is about the fallacy of law keeping. But even Galatians 3:27 says, “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” Definitely prescriptive. Traever’s whole argument about descriptive vs prescriptive is just NONSENSE.

[@MillerBB32]

Apparently Traever (and you) like to call any idea that contradicts your theology as NONSENSE, but I am going to believe what the Bible says over what Traever says. Call that nonsense if you want to.

[@dwbid42]

@@MillerBB32 We are baptized into Jesus alright but it isn't water baptism 1Co 12:13    For by ONE SPIRIT ARE WE ALL BAPTIZED into ONE BODY, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. WATER is mentioned in Galatians 0 times. SPIRIT is mentioned 18 times in 15 different verses. Y'all see baptism and start drooling saying oh boy oh boy water baptism and then you see water and see baptism. You know Jesus walked on baptism and changed baptism into wine.

[@bellcoolmountain6650]

Every single time ive asked the calvinist Jeremiah Nortier if a man can be saved without being baptized he says yes. We both know baptism is a commandment of God, Acts 10:47-48. Then i show Jeremiah's gospel of salvation is Salvation through belief alone and disobedience to Gods commandments and he says his gospel doesn't teach this. His gospel absolutely teaches belief alone absence of works(obedience) saves.