Why Mary’s Assumption Is Indefensible

[@angelavogt9086]

I converted to the Catholic faith when I was 27 years old (1991). Within 7 seven years, my husband, sister, and best friend joined me. At the age of 52, I was convicted by a Providential discovery of Dr. Greggory Allison’s book, Roman Catholicism: An Evangelical Assessment. I am grateful for the Catholic Church and how it taught me to love Scripture and doctrinal truth. I have an MA in pastoral theology from a Jesuit university. Ironically, my critical thinking skills have led me out of the Catholic Church for two primary reasons: 1. I started to struggle with the RCC’s claims about itself as the one true church (for a number of reasons) and 2. Even though I sincerely love Mary and accept some of the RCC teachings, I just can’t accept that those teachings are elevated to the level of infallible dogma. This places Marian dogma at the same level in the hierarchy of Truth as the resurrection. I simply could not bind my conscience to that. I’ve been writing a bit about my journey in Substack. I’ll post the link, if anybody is interested (it’s free-just a hobby).

[@karhukoira]

Please post the link, I'm interested!

[@sharplikecheddar2]

I’d be very interested, please provide a link! Blessings

[@johnrevelation37]

I'm very interested also 🙋🏻‍♂️

[@charliego7375]

What denomination did you go to?

[@briankosasih7629]

I’d be interested in your writing if you’d be willing to share it! 😊 Thanks!

[@BeefyPreacher]

Babe look, new Gavin Ortlund video dropped !!🔥🔥🔥

[@kgpspyguy]

Ugh. Catholics out here trying to apply divinity to Mary. Let’s get out of here babe.

[@BeefyPreacher]

@@kgpspyguy 😂😂😂

[@JD-sj1zn]

@@kgpspyguy Um, no.

[@Ourlady898]

Thank you pastor As a struggling Catholic Your debate with trent horn is how i discovered your channel As i look more and more into scripture and your works i know where my anxiety and confusion is coming from May God bless your channel abundantly.

[@Stigma-ba115]

God Bless you on your journey. 🙏

[@beecee3161]

Who wrote the bible? How do you know Matthew wrote his gospel? How did Hebrews and Revelation make it into the canon? There are many more questions you can't answer as a protestant without the Church. Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. Protestantism is the tradition of men, not the Church.

[@ProtestantKing7]

@@beecee3161 why don’t you ask Michael Kruger those questions and see how badly he will make you wish you never asked. He is a reformed Protestant biblical scholar, who does work on the Bible and the issue of the canon, etc, he has answered every single question that you listed in your comment……. You’re just showing that you do not understand the protestant position on sola Scriptura. And I bet you that you don’t even know the answer to your own questions, but you’re just repeating what you’ve heard other Catholics say. Highly recommend reading by Michael Kruger 😊

[@matiasgamalieltolmosuarez790]

​​@@beecee3161without the church??? The problem with Catholics starts in believing just Rome is the church, and that's totally arrogant considering Rome didn't even participate in ecumenical councils. Most part of protestantism is from valid and legal churches, clergy and laity, bishops in northern Europe totally accepted the reformation, and according to church fathers no bishop have more authority than other

[@Stigma-ba115]

​@beecee3161 I don't understand how these romanists just keep parroting the same elementary talking points as if protestants haven't already answered for centuries. Please, my brother in Christ, at least try to research the historical protestant position before using these childish talking points.

[@anthonynoronha8442]

I am an ex Catholic from from Mumbai, India. After first reading the Bible some 40, 50 years back, as a Catholic I used to struggle with some of the bizarre dogmas and teachings of the RCC and used to think that how can such intelligent and learned prople in the RCC could make such errors leading to weird teachings and idolatrous practices. I finally found a Bible based local church of which there are many in Mumbai and other cities in India. Your videos have been very helpful to see that in reality Protestism is much more apostolic and fundamentslist than what it is made out to be. God bless you and your family.

[@TruthUnites]

may the Lord bless you!

[@theknight8524]

I am also an ex Catholic from india(kerala) Praise the lord.

[@anthonynoronha8442]

@@theknight8524 Praise the Lord.

[@annb9029]

Most XCatholics leave because of poor education I left but went back after I read the Bible and the catechism hand in hand and watching Trent Horn then I learned the faith , the Catholic faith was not what I thought it was after I learned the truth God Bless an I respect different views

[@N1IA-4]

You are assuming Protestant epistemology and Sola Scriptura. No one in the early church, save a few clerics, had complete OT Scriptures never mind the NT. SS was not an operative principle for them then. Unless you can point to where God changed to the Bible being the sole infallible rule of faith.

[@bobbujka]

As a faithful and devout Catholic, thank you Gavin for your thoughtfulness, for your charity and the good spirit you bring to apologetics. This is so needed on both sides. Still disagree, but this is the way to do it!

[@Justas399]

What's there to disagree about?

[@brettpinion4233]

Why do you disagree? What does he get wrong?

[@N1IA-4]

@@brettpinion4233 History and epistemology among other things.

[@marlam8625]

The Assumption is promised to all of us. I don’t believe it difficult to think [interpret scripture] that He gave it to his mother earlier than the rest of us?

[@Justas399]

@@marlam8625 no proof that Mary was assumed into heaven. Not mentioned for centuries.

[@mzmPACman]

Made it to the end. As a Protestant, I actually have zero qualms with the possibility of Mary being assumed bodily. How could any of us truly know?? The way I see it, it's the Lord's business. My problem is, like you said in your conclusion, that the Catholic Church makes this an essential, mandatory doctrine you must assent to or else be anathematized. That is just a step too far for me---saying you are quite literally ACCURSED if you dont assent to this non-biblical doctrine that has no historical evidence. If the RCC or even individual Christians want to accept it as a pious belief, totally fine. But the overreach of authority is just crazy to me.

[@johnrevelation37]

​@patriceagulu8315I'm not a philosophy major but I know that your argument and claim is weak. The shroud of Turin has nothing to do with The Assumption.

[@user-jy6hd9uw8h]

True, I have absolutely zero qualms about most of RCC, but when they elevate crazy doctrines with little to no scriptural basis to the level of dogmas...

[@caleb.lindsay]

This is the exact statement I have come to also make stemming from my conscience. I am perfectly fine if she was assumed, but to equate it with the Gospel itself by anathematizing it? Holy moly. That's wild! The scariest part for me, which Gavin rarely touches on, is the Queen of Heaven paganism that it appears this stems from. Not just Gnosticism, but it truly seems to be an infiltration of pagan goddess worship. I know they want to say, "nuance!" but it's just such an exploitation of the Christian conscience to me to do this. That's my deepest and most gut-wrenching struggle with all of this: it is an abuse of the Christian desire to submit and be charitable to such a degree that is beyond comprehension. That's what really hurts me. A wolf in sheep's clothing wouldn't act like a wolf, but it would learn the sheep, behave and speak like the sheep, exploit the nature and desires of the sheep, and that's unfortunately how I see these things. So sad.

[@bernardauberson7218]

@@johnrevelation37je suis entièrement d’accord avec vous ! Nous, orthodoxes, parlons de Dormition de la Mère de Dieu, c’est la même réalité ! La Mère de Dieu est toujours à la droite de Son Fils! Voyez la place de leurs icônes sur l’iconostase ! C’est leur place, là où est le Christ ! Mais cette incroyable Mario-phobie des protestants bloque leur connaissance des choses divines, celles du monde d’En-Haut. C’ est dramatique pour eux!

[@cindiloowhoo1166]

So, perhaps you should not contemplate becoming a member of the Catholic Church just now. God is in charge. He is Omniscient. We mere mortals are not. If you knew everything, you would be God. You are not. There are Mysteries in The Universe. Study and pray and stay close to God, as however you may perceive Him to be, and allow the rest of us to do the same. I'll meet up with you later in Eternity ~ Blessed Be

[@morninglory576]

I've been looking into Catholicism and find this dogma a real sticking point. Thank you for the work you put into this video. Please know that I appreciate your kindness; you honor Jesus in the way you've handled yourself in every video I've watched thus far.

[@OnTheThirdDay]

I personally find the perpetual virginity (meaning not physically a virgin despite giving birth) to be very weird. Anthony Rogers did a couple livestreams on the perpetual virginity, talking about the gnostic origins of the doctrine I just said. He also argued against perpetual virginity as in not having any other children but I think that that is definitely more debatable and not completely strange.

[@annb9029]

Trent Horn and Jimmy Atkin have good info

[@morninglory576]

I like Trent Horn, but didn't find his argument very compelling.

[@morninglory576]

Thanks. I'll look into Anthony Rogers.

[@repentantrevenant9776]

I think the biggest problem is that there is so much good in Catholicism that is sadly lacking in much of Protestantism. It makes the choice of choosing Protestantism feel like you have to sacrifice good things (things that are of God) in order to attain others. Gavin put it wonderfully when he compared it to a divorced couple who are both diminished by their split. It could be the case that the woman was right to leave the man (think abuse, infidelity, etc), and yet both parties are diminished by the split. I am a Protestant because I ultimately believe it is the side that best represents the Truth, which is the most important thing for my conscience when it comes to following God. But I have to recognize that there is likely much that is good (and even important) within Catholicism that I do not get to experience regularly. And of course, the same is true in reverse. I long for a day when the two traditions could somehow be reunited, but I’m not sure what that could look like. I pray that God has a plan for it.

[@JoeThePresbapterian]

Mary's assumption is better seen as what it is called. An assumption.

[@matthew7491]

Ba dum cha

[@missmister6354]

😄👍

[@marcokite]

All Christians who belong to the original Church - Catholics and the Orthodox have always believed it, even back to the Dark Ages. Remember that all the Churches that go back to the time of Our Lord (Catholic, Orthodox and Eastern Oriental) accept the Assumption, only the protestant heretical sects (like the Baptists) which were inventions of men deny it.

[@marcokite]

@@elizabethburns1449 - why are lies brilliant?

[@rolandovelasquez135]

Do you mean that the Roman Church assumes that Mary was assumed? Sorry, just couldn't resist.

[@alexlugibihl2915]

Baptist here to learn a bit more about church history and find out if much of it is even important to know or not.

[@thestraightroad305]

I have found it to be helpful and even essential🙂.

[@molodoychilovek1949]

As a former RCC convert who returned to Protestantism, I concur with your comments on this. I listened to all of it. Cheers!

[@MrPeach1]

just curious how long did you convert for?

[@VFXShawn]

@@jpc9923 This is emotional pleading; those resurrected in Matthew 27:52 were resurrected as a testimony to the resurrection of Christ, it would not make sense for Mary to be resurrected/assumed into heaven many years after this event, as it would not serve the same purpose as a testimony to Christ's resurrection, but only as an act of favoritism towards Christ's mother, of which God says, He does not show favoritism (ROMANS 2:11). Further, Christ says those who obey God's words are His mother Matthew 12:46-50 “For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother", almost anticipating and refuting the catholic dogma that Mary has some special status on the eyes of God beyond that of other women of faith.

[@Jy3pr6]

Надо возвращаться к Православному ☦️🙏🏼

[@Duarte1298]

I watched it until the end. As a portuguese, I deal with extreme Mariolgy daily because of Fátima, and the next accrecion that is surging: the co-redeption of Mary. This has given my good tools to engage with it, speacily regarding the lady in the book of Apocalipse. Thank you so much Gavin. 😁

[@garyr.8116]

@Duarte1298 "the lady in the book of Apocalipse" - hi brother, perhaps you can answer - in Revelation12:5 Are you stating that 'a male child, destined to rule ALL the Nations with an iron rod' is NOT Jesus, or that the Woman who gave birth to this son 'She gave birth to a son' is NOT Mary ??

[@wojo9732]

​@@garyr.8116Mary was a tool, I don't mean that in bad way, if It had not been that woman mary, it would have been another woman equally sinful.

[@mcgilldi]

​@garyr.8116 the male child is for sure Jesus, but the woman is Israel

[@mcgilldi]

I see that also: Mary as "co-redemtrix " will surely come. This is the straw that has caused me to leave Catholicism

[@Jesper-bl2ns]

I remember that from when I walked the camino in Portugal. It was mary & fatima everywhere. Another pilgrim that began to be really annoyed, sarcastically asked a small group of catholic pilgims: "have you heard about this weird guy we call Jesus?". He also made quite a spectacle of himself when he saw people kneeling and praying to St.James in front of his coffin in the Cathedral in Santiago. I tried several times to calm him down - but the camino ended up being a very bad experience to him.

[@mega_mind397]

I love all of Dr. Ortlund’s metaphors and analogies. They’re always so creative. He’ll be going in depth on a theological topic and then just be like “ok so imagine California splits into 3 states”

[@ethanstrunk7698]

north coast, south coast, interior lol

[@Nathanthepoe]

Presbyterian here, I have to thank you so much for your content, Gavin. I've been ingesting such a huge amount of theology content lately and also trying to see the Catholic side of apologetics (since I have a considerable amount of Catholic family members and friends) Your gentle approach and respect of historicity is refreshing to see rather than the flat out demonization of the other side (which happens from immaturity on both Cath and Prot sides) There's a part of me that reeaallly wishes I could become Catholic to join my family members who are and release that tension, but it's dogmas like this that unfortunately keep me from taking that route. Regardless of the differences though I take comfort that our needs for salvation are met in our mutual love for, faith in, and reliance on, Christ Jesus. God bless you and thank you for your content!

[@joekey8464]

Christ will never leave His mother on earth to decay in a grave, while he reigns in heaven. Faith and reason must come together, blind faith is false. There is always a reason behind all Catholic dogmas. In the year 1854, Pope Pius IX had declared the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary. Several years later, in 1858, the Blessed Mother gave her name to St. Bernadette at Lourdes, the Lady responded in the Bigourdane dialect, “Que soy era Immaculada Conceptiou,” which means, “I am the Immaculate Conception.” This proves the authority of the church to “bind and loose”.

[@samueljennings4809]

I don’t think that the issue is about whether it happened or not, but rather about whether such doctrines are required for salvation.

[@joekey8464]

@@samueljennings4809 The church has always believed in the Marian Dogmas, and even before it was officially defined and it was open for discussion. People can deny or ignore them, but the church cannot leave any questions unanswered, so it has to define these matters. In its 2,000 year history the church has answered all questions that has to be asked in regards to our faith, no stone can be left unturned. it officially defined Assumption of Mary in 1850. Mother of God in 431, Immaculate Conception in 1854 (Mary herself confirmed this Dogma in 1858) and Perpetual Virginity in 389..

[@joekey8464]

@@samueljennings4809 We must believe in all what God has revealed, this is why they are required for salvation. We cannot choose and pick His revelations.

[@daddydaycareky]

@samueljennings4809 ALL of the Marian Dogmas are required for salvation ONLY because they point to Jesus. For instance, God created Mary without the stain of sin, only so that no one would question Jesus's purity at birth. Mary is the Mother of God, because Jesus was always and will always be God. Mary is the Queen of Heaven and Earth because Jesus is the King of Heaven and Earth. Mary is a perpetual virgin because she was the human ark of the New Covenant, meaning Jesus was the ultimate High Priest. Jesus was the Ultimate Bread from Heaven. Jesus was the ultimate law giver. Mary was assumed into heaven because Jesus w was the ultimate son and would, of course, bestow every honor and grace upon his mother. Mary ALWAYS points us to the glory, honor and power of Jesus.

[@richardbeall9174]

Made it to the end (as I've done with all your videos Gavin] which required absolutely no effort on my part. I cannot tell you how much your channel has, and continues to, enrich my Christian journey. Thank you and God bless from the north of England.

[@TruthUnites]

Thank you Richard, that is so great to hear!

[@rohan7224]

Please return to the Catholic faith, the spiritual heritage of all Protestants.

[@DekemaStokes]

@@TruthUnites hey Gavin i just watch the video great by the way but my question is what is the name of that song you have playing at the end of your video its a really good beat i would love to know so i can listen to it instead having to always go to the end of the video every time to listen to that song hope you respond back

[@CDLS32]

I made it to the end! Huzzah! That’s easy to do though, as I always find Dr. Ortlund’s videos very interesting. I am a former Roman Catholic of 30 years. I knew that the assumption was a required belief, but didn’t know the history surrounding it. This was true about most of my catechism - knowing the beliefs but not the history of why. When I attended initiation classes for a friend, this issue of the assumption was discussed and the teachers’ arguments were very simple: Mary’s body was nowhere to be found and “early” accounts say she was assumed, thus we believe she was assumed. I was astonished by the lackluster argument and dove into the Marian Dogmas. After months of research into Mary and other topics (mainly the pope), I decided being a Protestant was the best thing for me. I will be confirmed in the LCMS this fall. God bless you, Dr. Ortlund!

[@platospaghetti]

Wow! I would love to hear your testimony more fully 😃

[@andyheuer]

Ditto. LCMS here we come!

[@dreamweaver3406]

@@andyheuer?

[@Athabrose]

Welcome to the Lutheran Church. I was confirmed on Reformation Day in 2020.

[@bethorwesgnile7341]

Thank you for so clearly and succinctly explaining everything! I am an evangelical protestant, and agree, but I love that I now have the clear words to better explain to others.

[@jacobgoodwin8717]

Thank you for all you do! I’m a Protestant that struggles with my Protestantism sometimes because our modern church in the US can sometimes seem too trendy and lacking in reverence. Your exposition on scripture has helped ground me in the Faith in Protestantism in a way that I thought traditional Catholicism or Orthodoxy would. P. S. I made it to the end of the video.

[@scottb4579]

Hi. I'm a former Catholic. I know what you're saying about the superficial and sometimes downright ungodly trends in many modern U.S. churches. This, however, isn't a problem with Protestantism itself, but a symptom of the overall apostasy affecting many churches as people don't want to hear sound doctrine and seek an entertainment atmosphere. You can't get grounded in the faith in Catholicism. It is diametrically opposed to the gospel. It allows man made doctrines to supercede scripture. Romans 10:17: Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Therefore, man made doctrines inspired by demons will never produce faith.

[@haronsmith8974]

@@scottb4579 The worst Catholics become protestants, and the best Protestant become Catholic. Ill take the Churchs dogma over YOUR man made doctrines you get from your opinion in scripture anyday.

[@EnglishMike]

@@haronsmith8974 So, you're about to become a Protestant, then...?

[@JD-sj1zn]

@@scottb4579 Peace. How exactly is the Church, who wrote and gave us the written Gospels, opposed to its teaching?

[@scottb4579]

@@JD-sj1zn What church? Four men gave us the gospels before any catholic church existed. The gospel of Jesus Christ is this: Christ was brutally beaten, scourged and crucified for the sins of the world. He died, was buried, and rose again on the third day. For “Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved. Romans 10:13 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast. Eph. 2:8-9 Every catholic doctrine unique to the catholic church is diametrically opposed to the gospel.

[@jovonbrowne3129]

as a Protestant I have no issue with Mary being bodily assumed or remained a virgin forever but the fact that it is a dogma and that I have to believe it lest I be thrown into hell fire is a serious roadblock for me. How and why is belief in Mary’s bodily assumption essential to the faith, did Mary die for me or did Christ ?

[@splashenful]

Christ Died for you. However, Mary gave Birth to Him, so that He Could Die for you.

[@jovonbrowne3129]

@@splashenful Thank God for allowing Mary the privilege of being the vessel by which he would bring His son into the world but I would not have my eternal security held hostage by whether I believe Christs mother died or not.

[@splashenful]

@@jovonbrowne3129 Well, at least you are not like other Protestants that go out of their way to tell us Catholic (& Orthodox) Christians that the Marian doctrines concerning Our Lady's Assumption & Perpetual Virginity are both wrong. Back in my younger years, I actually struggled with the Church's devotion to Mary. It took a lot of studying to help me overcome it.

[@DanielApologetics]

Nailed it, Gavin! Great critique.

[@DavidTextle]

Wow I just noticed you’re almost at 35k followers. I’ve been here since before 10k, glad to see the channel grow :)

[@jackknox7895]

Amazing, and irenic overview. I was raised Catholic, became Evangelical (not protesting) through study, not anger, and all have lots of Roman Catholic friends. This shows it can be accomplished, discourse in truth and love. Well done, sir.

[@marcuswilliams7448]

This was 50 minutes longer than my video, and also WAY better. Super informative, especially with all the references to the Holy Fathers. Thank you, Gavin.

[@TruthUnites]

Glad it was helpful!

[@JD-sj1zn]

Peace. I'm not sure why being long-winded makes his point better. I would suggest that it weakens his argument as well as accentuates his rejection of consistent Church teaching for almost 2000 years. You mention the Church Fathers. Consider this: Have the greatest intellects of the Church throughout the centuries, failed to do what Dr. O. has done? Sts. Augustine, Bernard, Gregory the Great, Bernardine, Thomas Aquinas, Hilary, Anselm, Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Clement, Francis, Benedict, Pius V, Bonaventure, Albert....and so on, from every century to the present have NOT taught what Dr. O. teaches. Not a single one. Not one in 2000 years. Isn't it amazing that after 20 centuries, we now have the good doctor to set us straight? If you are really interested in understanding why the Bride of Christ teaches as she does, consult the Church, not a protestor to that Church. As an additional resource, I may be able to answer objections that you may have, to your satisfaction.

[@commentor93]

​@@JD-sj1zn How does listing more arguments and being able to go into further detail weaken anyones point? Also, Dr. O points out what the greatest Intellects of the Church did not teach, which is the assumption of Mary, to make his point. So they're not at odds with each other but rather Dr. O makes it clear to those not familiar with the church fathers that they support the protestant position in this case. I'm not sure which part of the video you interpreted as setting us straight, all I see is summing up the church fathers' position for an evaluation of their theology across the times.

[@raphaelfeneje486]

Been waiting patiently for this. Let me watch now. God bless you and your ministry, sir❤🙏 Pheeeww!!! I just finished the video! This was expository!🙏

[@mitromney]

As an ex-Catholic, this was by far one of the most damning piece of evidence that led me out of the Church back in the day. I could not understand how can Catholics insist on a dogma this abstract and unimportant and bind all Christains to it under a curse. For me it was a living proof that Catholic Magisterium is not infallible, but rather, it produces doctrine that seems compelling at the time. I still think Catholics can be saved, because the proper gospel teaching is out there among their countless encyclicas on secondary issues - but remaining in a Church this self-centered was simply out of the question for me. I can't be homest with myself and remain Catholic, when the dogma clearly states that I am under the curse myself for not finding the evidence behind Mary's Assumption coherent.

[@culpepper7665]

What is "proper gospel teaching" ? And how do you know?

[@mitromney]

@@culpepper7665 the truth that to be saved, you need only to have faith in Jesus's saving work. Through that faith, and with an act of repentance from your sins, you are accepted by God as his child, and given saving grace. Apart from any works on your behalf - those will only follow your conversion as natural fruit of love and obediance to God who saved you. This teaching can be found in the Catholic Church nowadays. I personally know many Catholics who believe this "proper" gospel, and they do so on the basis of Catholic doctrine, not their own Bible or Protestant research. One significant place this doctrine can be found is Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, released by the Magisterium in 1999, when John Paul 2 was the Pope. Other places are public statements of faith made by subsequent Popes. Pope Benedict famously proclaimed that Luther was right when it comes to doctrice of Justification - that it is by grace through faith alone, apart from works. Pope Francis also made the same declaration at least twice. You will not find it taught by Catholic theologians and apologists, who fight with this updated doctrine with all their might, but it was embraced by a lot of common lay people who pay attention to such things - many of them have been praying for this teaching to be changed for decades. But, ya know the saying. The watermill of Catholic Church makes its turns slowly, the tradition dictates the tempo. Even though these revolutionary declarations and statements were made, a lot of water needs to still pass through before the Church actually acknowledges them and starts living them out. Still, it is possible now to be fully a Catholic and believe the true gospel. That's something. 30 years ago it was but a dream. You were either a manifest heretic for claiming it, or a false convert, living in hiding but anathema all the same. I give credit when it's due. At least that much has changed.

[@ramondm201]

Marian miracles like Fatima proves catholoc dogma.

[@thoughtfulchristianity]

This was my same experience.

[@albusai]

Hebrews 10 is the one that made me leave that church

[@JW_______]

I think this is one of those rare subjects of RC v protestant disagreement where the argument is decisively won.

[@JW_______]

@patriceagulu8315 Gates of Hell don't prevail against the church under protestantism either. No offense, but this is such a tired, over-used argument.

[@petergomez5174]

Gavin, thanks for your input on this topic. I am a seminary student at Talbot with a love of church history. I recently became interested in Protestant/Catholic dialogues, and you’ve provided insight as well as great reference material. Thank you!

[@JD-sj1zn]

Peace. A love of history? It reminds me of a quote: "To be steeped in Church history is to cease to be Protestant." - John Henry Cardinal Newman (convert from Anglicanism) Please read Newman and then the Church Fathers ( Augustine, Aquinas, Bonaventure, Leo the Great, John Crysostom, Cyprian of Carthage, Hillary, Jerome (especially his response to Helvidius on this specific topic) Blessings.

[@daddydaycareky]

Gavin does not have his finger on the pulse of Chirch History. He simply cherry picks quotes that can be used for his agenda. I think he has read Ignatius' letters and he honestly stated that he wrestles with them because of how clearly they lay out a Church hierarchy, especially the role of the Bishop. Well, unfortunately the role of Bishop is very Biblical, the role of Elder is both very Jewish and very Biblical. Fortunately, I discovered that as a Catholic, I no longer have to struggle with the Church fathers.

[@petergomez5174]

Yes, Ignatius does talk a lot about church hierachy. But the words used for bishop and presbyter/ overseer are used interchangeably in the NT meaning that to refer to Bishop and Elder as seperate offices or roles as Ignatius does seems to misunderstand the text.

[@JD-sj1zn]

@@petergomez5174 Ignatius was a bishop of the Catholic Church, he was quite familiar with terms. He also had the benefit of being taught the New Testament by the Beloved Apostle.

[@JD-sj1zn]

@@daddydaycareky Peace. It is a beautiful thing, isn't it. We must never take it for granted, I have learned,or forget that it's by God's Grace. Sometimes we don't have to know everything. We just have to know The One who does, and His Bride to whom He gave the authority to give us correct teaching. Blessings.

[@keedee3104]

Hi Gavin, I’m a Catholic covert. I really appreciate your gentleness and kindness when approaching these engagements on Catholic doctrine. I thoroughly enjoyed listening to you and I really admire the research and time that you put into your videos. It means a lot to me that you can be civilized in these debates and challenges without the anti-Catholic rhetoric. May God bless you Gavin

[@carltonhobbs]

One thing to consider that Acts 15 was a Beit Din. A traditional Jewish assembly where the Av Beit Din "Father of the assembly", the 2nd in charge, brings an issue to the Nasi, the President of the assembly to make a final decision. Peter had the Keys (meaning 2nd in charge) to bring the issue to James to make the final decision. Only those with a Gentile lack of understanding of this Jewish assembly would falsely assume Peter was the leader or decision maker.

[@jimmu2008]

​@@carltonhobbsyeah, I am pretty sure Peter was second in charge to Jesus, not James. However, James was Bishop of Jerusalem, so naturally he would have presided over the council.

[@cactoidjim1477]

Even if one considered that a "knock-down" argument against the Papacy, it ends up being a rather strong argument *for* Orthodoxy (and I have heard it often without the use of the Beit Din) @@jimmu2008

[@joekey8464]

He can have "gentleness and kindness", but be aware that he is misleading a lot of people, people who seek the truth

[@jimmu2008]

@@joekey8464 I think you meant to start with "He cannot...."

[@davecorns7630]

thank you for your content, youtube needs more kind protestant apologists like you

[@busyharbor75]

Praise be to God for how charitable you are in your apologetics Gavin.

[@ValerianGamgebeli]

Thank you very much Gavin for this fascinating content. Please never stop telling the truth about these matters. I am a former eastern orthodox who became a protestant christian by reading the Bible and comparing what was written with the teachings and practices that exist both in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches. Brother I find your videos invaluable for showing in the best way (with love and truth) what true Christianity teaches and what it doesn't. Again thank you very much and please keep doing this good work. There's anything more important than truth, well argued (well documented), explained in a peaceful, patient and loving manner. May God bless you and keep you and your dear family brother.

[@goldenspoon87]

I'm a methodist and grew up in a Catholic school for 12 years. I had to argue and defend my beliefs, every morning during prayer I'd say the Lord's prayer but I'd keep mum during the hail Mary part. This issue has been on my heart since a young age and I'm grateful for Gavin who is able to articulate our position so well and lovingly.

[@bradleesargent]

Do you think Jesus talks to his mother in heaven? Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven...

[@jamestrotter3162]

@@bradleesargentThe Lord Jesus talks to everyone who is in heaven. But He answered and said unto him that told him, "Who is my mother? And who are My brethren?" And He stretched forth His hand toward His disciples, and said, " Behold My mother and My brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of My Father which is in heaven, the same is My brother, and sister, and mother."-Matt. 12:48-50.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@bradleesargent I do think Jesus must have a special spot in his heart for his earthly mother, and likely also his earthly father, Joseph. It is a commandment to honour your father and mother. Yet we have to balance that w/ the fact that God is no respecter of persons, and he loves us all. This is why we find the way Catholics close to deify Mary to be disturbing. We can't find scriptural evidence that she is sinless, a perpetual virgin, or that she was assumed. I would have the least problem w/ Mother Mary being assumed, because she is full of grace and blessed among women. It's the fact the RCC makes it an anathema to not believe in the assumption that is a big problem. Believing Catholic dogma about Mary shouldn't be a salvation issue. Yet is is w/ the RCC. Our salvation is clearly only through Christ though, as the bible says.

[@bradleesargent]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 you have no idea because my priest always made it very clear that salvation only comes through Jesus Christ.

[@bradleesargent]

@saintejeannedarc9460 there were catholics in Canada called the army of Mary who turned her into a goddess and they were summarily excommunicat3d from the Church. You should not say things when you just don't know or even are curious enough to do the extremely difficult task of research like I had to before becoming a catholic after over 40 years as a protestant.

[@2007bing]

I really don’t understand why people believe Mary had no sin and is raised to heaven. Why have Jesus Christ then? Why did he die for our sins? I can’t understand why this dogma even exist, for what purpose?

[@Angel-cu5mf]

"may Christ be honored in the way we search for truth on this topic" 💯

[@jamescrumbaker3169]

I've always been a Protestant at heart. Even when I was younger and heard the teachings about Mary, Purgatory, Mass and other practices that were not based in scripture, I often wondered where they got these ideas from. It was only after doing some research into the pagan and occult practices in history that it started to click. I believe that this is the same veneration given to the same queen of heaven by the Jews in Jeremiah 44.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

So you were raised Catholic, and eventually left it?

[@jamescrumbaker3169]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 No, I had people try to educate me on it (looking back, I'm not sure if they were trying to convert me or just debate the topic). I was raised non-denominational, and my parents visited many different churches trying to find the right one. I go to a Lutheran church now, and it seems like most of their beliefs line up with what I believe. There are a few things I don't agree with like infant baptism and worship style, but their theology is rock solid on the gospel.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@jamescrumbaker3169 Oh, ok. I had no idea I was supposed to be a protestant until well into my 20's. I was raised Christian and on the bible. I had a vague notion that mom used to be Catholic, but had no idea what that involved. I just followed the bible, as I'd been taught. We went to different churches, but weren't a set denomination either.

[@DavidinSLO]

Made it to the end. Appreciate the excellent and accessible scholarship, as well as your charitable tone (San Luis Obispo, California)

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

Me too. Been a non-Catholic my heart.

[@jamestrotter3162]

None of the bishops at the council of Nicaea believed dogmatically what the RCC teaches today.

[@garyr.8116]

@jamesstrotter3162 - none of the Protestants today believe even what Luther taught 500 yrs ago: True Presence in Eucharist, Mary Ever Virgin ....

[@cronmaker2]

Development of doctrine is true in Protestantism as well. No Protestant scholar asserts the full orbed theology of Westminster or Augsburg was held in the 4th century.

[@jamestrotter3162]

@@garyr.8116I know Protestants today who definitely believe what Luther taught 500 years ago.

[@jamestrotter3162]

@@cronmaker2There's a difference between development of doctrine and development of understanding of Biblical doctrine.

[@cronmaker2]

@@jamestrotter3162 of course RCism asserts its doctrines are biblical, and the church's growing and deepening understanding guided by the holy spirit drives the development of its dogmas. Regardless, neither Protestantism nor RCism holds their 21st century doctrines are found fully formed and explicated in the 4th century so the original comment is not really germane to the dispute.

[@winterland3253]

One thing I really appreciate about your videos is how you get right into it without any overlong intros or blaring electronic music like a lot of apologists. Instead, there is immediately a sense of seriousness and legitimacy. \ And thank your as well for all of your detailed arguments, I am examining a lot of denominations and your arguments seem to hold a lot of water to me. God bless!

[@TruthUnites]

Thanks! God guide you in your pursuit.

[@HectorTheGr8]

Thank you Gavin for all that you do. As a protestant, you have helped me tremendously. I would love to see a video on the perpetual virginity of Mary. Thank you again. Your videos encourage me greatly.

[@michaelabah1037]

Gavin thinks it's possible

[@heather602]

Jesus had 4 brothers and at least 2 sisters

[@JD-sj1zn]

@@heather602 The term "brother" in the Greek is used 4 different ways in the New Testament. 1- as a blood brother 2- as a brother in the Faith 3- as related to a larger group that holds the same beliefs or as members of a race 4- and as it applies to relatives (such as James the Just) The latter term is what is meant by the passages from whence you derive your count. For many reasons (that I would be happy to speak a/b if you wish to hear them) the Blessed Virgin Mary is Ever-Virgin.

[@heather602]

@@JD-sj1zn Matthew 13:55-56 Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”

[@JD-sj1zn]

@heather602 Peace My comment is still true. These are relatives but do not share the same parents. By way of example, Abraham refers to Lot as his brother. Clearly, he wasn't. Lot was Abraham's nephew. This is the same sense used here.

[@Reformedcatholic_]

I’m glad I watched this video. My heart is secure insofar as I decided to not cross the Tiber.

[@stephenpbailey9646]

Keep speaking the truth in love! It shall set anyone free willing to humble and accept what is true

[@perilouspete]

Excellent video, Gavin! Thank you for your thoughtful, well-researched work on this topic, as well as the many other topics you cover on this channel. Keep up the good work and may God bless you with wisdom and discernment!

[@HaonDlo]

Made it to the end Gavin. I appreciate the conciseness by which you present these videos. I found it interesting that you mentioned the Francis Schaeffer quote. From the content I have seen from you this seems to fit your approach very well. Just as we are to present the Gospel as an extension of truth rooted in love rather than an attack, you also always present your content in a way that is truthful and loving. You always give me such a strong impression that the joy of the Lord in within you. I pray He continues to use you, God bless.

[@Strongtower]

Watched to the end of the video. Thank you Gavin for all you do.

[@Athabrose]

Ya know this makes me kinda sad. It’s not the idea of the blessed Mother being assumed that bothers me. It’s the binding infallible declaration behind it that separates me from communing with wonderful Roman Catholic Christians. We will all commune together one day when what fallible men have ruined will be restored by Jesus Christ. Thanks for your work Dr. Ortlund

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

Amen, till we meet in the air.

[@Athabrose]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 till then 🙏

[@littlechildinbigworld]

awww, I'm sorry... I wish we could all be family, too. What faith do you profess?

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@littlechildinbigworld We are family, even if we don't realize it now.

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

Yes, it is sad. All of the unholy, unnecessary wars. The deceiver and deceivers HATE GOD, His Creation and His Truth

[@Toyboughtdave]

Thank you Gavin for the way that you presented the information in regards to this subject. My wife and I have been investigating since the spring of 2023 the early to medieval Catholic beliefs and practices. I have learned and seen that there is a deep richness in the liturgical practices of the early church, as well as great devotional thought found in the church fathers. One area that has bothered me is this topic. Again, thank you for the way you presented the material and thank you for your ministry brother.

[@natebozeman4510]

My anticipation for this cannot be put into words. So excited to watch this. Brace ourselves for like 15 Catholic response videos.

[@JoeThePresbapterian]

Some would be about 8 hours long 😅

[@morghe321]

I'm sure they will do their very best to defend the indefensible.

[@Y0urMisterDirty]

I love how the entire Catholic Church sends their full intellectual might again one lone Californian. The man has some serious chops.

[@YajunYuanSDA]

Mary who died in 43AD or who died in 48AD or who died in 53AD or who died in 63AD or who died after the last book of the NT was written or who never died. Mary who died in the place of Jerusalem or who in the place in the place of Ephesus or who never died. Mary whose death was by God (e.g. Moses) or whose death was natural (e.g. old age) or whose death was by murder or who never died. Who was assumed immediately after death or who was assumed the following night or who was assumed three days after death or who was assumed seven months after death or who was assumed without death. From the above account Catholics can be 100% historically certain that Mary went bodily into heaven on August 15th because Eugenio Pacelli claimed in 1950AD that the 1st century Apostles deposited this as historical fact to the Roman Catholic Church.

[@DanOcchiogrosso-uj4be]

@@Y0urMisterDirtyespecially as a full time pastor with 5 kids going up against full time apologists!

[@nataliakanty6341]

I just finished it - listening in Studzienice/Poland. I challenged you dear Pastor to check it on a map - just so you have idea how far and wide you preach and help. Thank you!

[@jamesfahey5686]

I enjoy your respectful back and forths with Trent.

[@josephnelson9739]

As a Lutheran I’m rather indifferent to the assumption of Mary… I personally feel it is adiaphora … many of the reformers seem to be in favour but at the same time not thinking it should be a doctrine

[@YajunYuanSDA]

Are you indifferent to the assumption of Luther? I would be in favour in making a doctrine that he will not be bodily in heaven until the resurrection of the dead at the second coming of Jesus Christ.

[@josephnelson9739]

That makes no sense at all… Luther was not assumed into heaven. No one believes that.

[@YajunYuanSDA]

@@josephnelson9739 Exactly, so the point is apart from the time difference of when they lived. Why for only Mary, should we raise the possibility of bodily entering heaven before the resurrection of the dead. To be consistent the adiaphora should apply to all believers in Christ, which is why the default should be to deny all assumptions into heaven in the absence infallible eyewitnesses accounts.

[@josephnelson9739]

@@YajunYuanSDA that is very different and the foundation of your argument is flawed. Luther was not for a start the Theotokos. Likewise Luthers remains are still with us- you can go and see them. Frankly it does not matter if Mary was assumed into heaven or not... she might have been... it makes little difference to the substance of Christian doctrine...however, it is a problem when Roman Catholics insist that it is a doctrine that must be believed. As Luther said "There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith... It is enough to know that she lives in Christ." -Martin Luther (Sermon, Feast of the Assumption of Mary, 1522)

[@AnglicanFish]

Thank you Dr Ortlund for keeping me on the Lutheran side of the Catholic-Lutheran tightrope I seem to walk every day 😂

[@Stigma-ba115]

Fellow Lutheran! Let's goooo

[@danielmclean3227]

I watched to the End. Gavin thank you so so much for doing this, and exampling to us how to fight for the unity of the Church while valuing Truth and gentleness. Absolutely love your channel, and it has equipped, encouraged, and corrected me so much. Keep up the good work!!

[@pamelalanehaun7156]

Thank you for explaining Mary's assumption in Layman's terms. Your study of theology and all the writings surrounding it are very appreciated.

[@jwcrusader]

RC here. Watched to the end. I personally believe in the Assumption/Dormition, but I admit the doctrinal foundations for it are weak. My belief is that it should be considered a wide-spread, venerable opinion, but surely not one that results in "utterly losing the faith" if a Christian doubts or even denies it. I also agree with you in the final analysis that the Magisterium is the only source of doctrine which really comes to matter in RCism. We are finding that sword to cut both ways, when it is used to find novel reasons to justify dubious moral practices, let's just say.

[@ANGELMartin-n4y]

Mary acknowledged Jesus as her Savior. She was definitely a sinner. *Luke 1:47 (KJV)* And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

[@cakebakerish]

Watched to the end!😊

[@adamvillemaire984]

Thank you Gavin IN THE NAME OF JESUS for this VERY IMPORTANT vudeo..... You ARE very well detailed....simple to comprehend....based un scriptural & historical proof..... Dont give up.....brother....many will HATE you ....this is normal....but the true body of Christ will love you & encourage you ....we are in a spiritual war..... God bless you Gavin ❤

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

Spiritual ⚔️ War

[@glennherron9499]

I've had so many discussions with Catholics and regardless of what scripture you share, any position you take, they are unable to separate themselves from the lens of catholicism! The role of Mary is quite clear in scripture. She, like John the Baptist are prophecy fulfilled! Neither play an active role in our salvation. They point to the wedding as one reason why they pray to her. To gain stuff, I guess but does the Holy Spirit intercede for prayers to Mary, or only those to God? With millions of catholics praying to her every minute of the day how is able to enjoy heaven, hear every whisper, run to Jesus and have Him give her the stuff that she was asked for? The woman shouted, "Blessed is the woman who birthed you and breasts that nursed you", Jesus didn't tell her He agreed but instead took everyone's eyes off of Mary and placed them solely on God. He replied, "Rather blessed are those who hear the Word of God and obey"! In Matthew 12 when Jesus was told that His mother and brothers were outside He pointed to the believers in front of Him and said, "Here is My mother and brothers"! But He didn't stop there. He added, "Anyone who does the will of God is My brother, My sister, My mother"! He doesn't place Mary in a special category but lists her with the common believer who does the will of God. From the creation of the first Christian Church in Acts thru the book of Revelation Mary is not taught, preached, written about, or even mentioned! No Apostle, no writer of any book mentions her. The Apostle John, caretaker of Mary after the cross, never once mentioned her by name. Never told us that she was special, deserving of our praise and adoration. The Apostle Paul, writer of half of the New Testament never once mentioned her! The Apostle Peter, the Catholic rock, never mentioned her, not a single Hail Mary! Revelation 12, the woman who is pregnant is pregnant and in heaven over 2000 years before Jesus was born. In verse 9 Satan is cast out of heaven. So the timeline contradicts Luke's account of when Mary became pregnant. In verse 14, the woman was given giant eagle wings to fly like a superhero. There is no mention of Mary having wings in scripture. Then in verse 17, I think, I don't have my Bible handy, but it says something to the effect that Satan went after her other children who kept the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus contradicts John 7:5 where we are told His brothers didn't believe in Him. Mary, like John the Baptist are prophecy fulfilled. Neither have an active role in our salvation. To take our eyes off of God and to give to Mary is a dangerous thing to do!

[@scottie8365]

Revelation 12 talks about the woman in the wilderness ,the 1260 days and the woman becoming more persecuted. Some believe the woman is The Church,I believe the woman is Israel. But it’s clearly not Mary

[@AshtonSWilson]

I appreciate that you mentioned John the Baptist. It seems curious that a man who is considered so highly by Jesus (Lk 7:28) is not also revered by Catholics so highly. Also, the fact that John is so connected to Elijah is interesting considering one was assumed and the other decapitated. It does seem to indicate that typological arguments have limits.

[@bethsaari6209]

All EXCELLENT points! Thank you.

[@peggywilliamson9722]

As a former Roman Catholic, I thoroughly enjoy your channel. I appreciate your thoughtful scholarship, as well as your ability to boil it down for the rest of us. Great job balancing grace and truth!

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

If you'd like to share, what brought you out of Catholicism, and which denomination did you settle in?

[@peggywilliamson9722]

@@saintejeannedarc9460, I left the RC church initially out of frustration. Despite a Catholic education, I knew little about the Lord, and felt disconnected from Him. I don’t know what they teach nowadays, but in 10 years of Catholic education, I was never required to open a Bible. In college, I joined a small women’s Bible study and the Lord began to speak truth to me through His Word. The lines of communication were open for the first time in my life. I have been a member of a couple of denominations as well as non-denominational churches over the many years since then, and have grown in my love for the Lord through each of them. I’ve been a Southern Baptist for the past 14 years.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@peggywilliamson9722 I hear that a lot. Catholic shows have panels on why so many Catholics leave the RCC, and they usually claim it is because they aren't well catechized. It is a weakness of Catholicism that they don't really learn the gospel well in church. I've heard Catholics say that the gospel is proclaimed every Mass. Yet if you don't know the bible well, it goes over your head. I've attended Mass, nothing against Catholics myself, just many of the doctrines I can't accept. Needed to edit that last part out. If you saw it already, I had confused you w/ another former Catholic whose Catholic school had gotten really liberal.

[@annb9029]

I use to be XCatholic for the same reason, but I took the time to read the catechism an the Bible hand in hand an nothing’ contradicts it finally all made since plus watching Trent Horn on KZbin it was bad catholic education that was the issue not the Catholic Church God Bless ps I’m not here to tell people we’re to go to church but I will stick up for Catholics

[@fantasia55]

You were never a Roman Catholic. You were a Catholic.

[@catholicguy1073]

I listened to Trent’s response for this so I’ll listen to yours. It can be frustrating for all of us when our beliefs our challenged but it’s necessary. Iron sharpens iron

[@norala-gx9ld]

There’s a great deal of truth, goodness, and beauty in Catholicism, but Rome’s doubling down on this isn’t it. Thank you so much for your work on this.

[@michaelcruz7916]

You ATEEEE! Great work!

[@meltingpopsicle5842]

(I watched to the end. Heart me!) As a protestant, what gets me about the Assumption is that it is a dogma in the Roman Catholic Church, which means that if you willfully reject it, then God will damn you (see the papal statements starting at 7:11). At most the importance of the Assumption could be an edifying thing ("Hey, did you know that Mary got assumed just like Enoch and Elijah? That must mean that her example of piety and faith is a good one to follow!"). There is nothing central or essential to Christianity in this doctrine. Denying it is not like denying the deity of Christ or His Resurrection so why should denying it carry such severe eternal consequences? Making this doctrine a dogma is an unnecessary and harsh imposition on the consciences of believers.

[@lindacooper5542]

I agree we just need to keep our eyes on Christ he is the one the saves after all

[@ilovechrist914]

That's why you come orthodox

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

WHY ? Power, Control, Money. Well, most men on thrones are familiar with and use power, control & money, Right ?

[@JWM5791]

From my research, Orthodox believe in the assumption of Mary as well. Is that not true? ​@ilovechrist914

[@keithvittozzi90]

I converted to Catholicism in 2007. I am finding that I should have done more research. I always had some reservation about people being more concerned about going to Mary then to Jesus. Your video was a real eye opener for me as I have been thinking about going back to Protestantism becausethis video of my doubts. Thank you for this video.

[@annb9029]

You don’t have to go to mary as a Catholic you can go to Jesus plus Mary always points to Jesus we only ask the saints to pray for us to Jesus we honor the saints we do not worship them you may want to read the catechism along side the Bible thry match up perfectly

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

I have wondered how many protestants that convert to the RCC, actually stay w/ it. I had heard lately that a lot of them come out of it again. I haven't seen any proof of that w/ studies, but I do see occasional comments like yours. I have wondered how Christians who know the bible deal w/ the added doctrines and dogmas, not well supported or not at all supported in scripture. For many, it's enough that the church decided, and so they accept.

[@nateewongo3905]

I'd recommend Dr. Brant Pitre's "Jesus and the Jewish Roots of Mary" and "Mary at the Crossroads of History" by Francis Hoffman. I too am a convert and can understand where you're coming from. But please realize that Dr. Ortlund prefers shorter videos and there is more to the story that doesn't make it in. God willed that we learn about Him and grow in love with Him through parents, friends, and even strangers. I've only grown more in love with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by learning from Mary, the one who knew Jesus best, the mom Jesus shared with us on the Cross, a prized example of a disciple Jesus teaches His Church with. I don't doubt that some Catholics take it too far, but we are imperfect human beings and anything good can be taken to an extreme. I bet many Christians care more about what their friends think than God--does that mean they shouldn't have friends anymore? No. Rather, they ought to fix their relationship with God.

[@samueljennings4809]

@annb although Catechism teaches that Mary points to Jesus, there is definitely a problem of that idea in actual practice. It often does come out as prioritising Mary. Even if that is not what the Church officially teaches, there is no denying that something is wrong with how it’s being manifested in practice, whether that’s by poor catechism or poor emphasis.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@samueljennings4809 You seem rather troubled by the extra emphasis on Mary too. Are you Catholic as well?

[@TeamWilsonCT]

Great video Gavin. The section that deals with Revelation 12 deserves it’s own video - the Catholic interpretation of this passage is integral to the Marian beliefs and pivotal to the supportive lore (ex. Virgin of Guadalupe etc…) that provides for them (I feel.. unwarranted) mystical corroboration. Please do a video on the apparitions and keep up the great work.

[@marcokite]

why is a great big, offensive (to Our Lord) lie a 'great video' ?

[@ElijahBRogers]

I absolutely love these thorough and compact video essays. Always have and will appreciate your stuff Gavin. Praying your video educates and convinces!

[@garyr.8116]

@SouthMinister - ​ - hi brother, perhaps you can answer, since Gavin is dodging the question - specifically in Revelation12:5 Are you stating that 'a male child, destined to rule ALL the Nations with an iron rod' is NOT Jesus, or that the Woman who gave birth to this son 'She gave birth to a son' is NOT Mary ??

[@YajunYuanSDA]

@@garyr.8116 Israel "gave birth" to the Messiah, Do you believe Jesus is 'Son of David'?

[@garyr.8116]

@@YajunYuanSDA Even a 5 year old child can clearly see that Rev12:5 /1 is talking about MARY - Mat 11:25-27 Luke 10:21-22 Can you show where in scripture it states ' 'Israel gave birth to Jesus' ??

[@YajunYuanSDA]

@@garyr.8116 "Before she was in labor, she delivered; Before her pain came, *she gave birth to a boy.* Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be *born* in one day? Can a nation be *given birth* all at once? As soon *as Zion was in labor,* she also delivered her sons. Shall I bring to *the point of birth* but not *give delivery?”* says the Lord. “Or shall I who *gives delivery* shut the womb?” says your God. “Be joyful with Jerusalem and rejoice for her, all you who love her; Be exceedingly glad with her, all you who mourn over her, So that you *may nurse* and be satisfied with her comforting breasts, So that you may drink fully and be delighted with her bountiful breasts.”" (Isaiah 66:7-11)

[@awakenyouthcenter3205]

I always make it to the end. I love your content

[@anglicanaesthetics]

Watched the video--this is excellent stuff, Gavin. Especially the last 5 minutes where you highlight the nub of the issue: given the absence of the doctrine in the first five centuries and positive evidence that no one knew of the assumption, there is no possible way the assumption can be a logical exposition of what the apostles taught. There is no theological rationale that makes any sense so as to say that belief in the assumption is necessary to salvation and follows in any way from a saving faith in Christ according to the teaching of the apostles. This issue itself entirely debunks the magisterium's claim that it is merely interpreting; it is *adding* stuff the apostles didn't teach us.

[@garyr.8116]

@anglicanaesthetics - - hi brother, maybe you can answer this for me, since Gavin seems to be dodging the question - specifically in Revelation12:5 Are you stating that 'a male child, destined to rule ALL the Nations with an iron rod' is NOT Jesus, or that the Woman who gave birth to this son 'She gave birth to a son' is NOT Mary ??

[@anglicanaesthetics]

@garyr.8116 I, with the early fathers, am saying that the woman of Revelation 12 is the renewed Israel. So Israel is mother of Jesus, and the mother of other offspring (the woman of Revelation 12 has other offspring)--and the church is Israel continued and reconstituted, with Gentiles grafted in through the Messiah.

[@ryanhiatt23]

Watched to the end! Your videos are fascinating and I applaud your approach.

[@MegMcl]

As I read the comments it's making me sad that there is a "them and us" negative spirit seeping through. Please be respectful. I have a new love and respect for all my Catholic brothers and sisters since Gavin, Trent etc began dialoguing. I love them and now pray daily that God will do a great work amongst us all. We are great in number and we all seek to follow a great God through our captain Jesus. With heartfelt love to all my wonderful extended family. Thank you so much Gavin and Trent. God is with us.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

I love these ecumenecal channels. They do a great service to the body of Christ. You may like Matt Whitman, Gospel Simplicity and may know of Pints with Aquinas, through the sola scriptura debate w/ Trent, then the follow up sit down they all did. Their love and respect for each other leads the way to more peaceful dialogue, always seasoned w/ grace. It's ok that we contend for the faith and differ on doctrine. It's much more peaceful in venues like this, than it is elsewhere, where Christians just bite and devour one another.

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

End of Vatican 2 = Start of Ecumenicalism Ecumenical Movement = Start of One World Religion

[@sandrapihlskott3262]

Thank's for all your work and gentle tone in these discussions. A very important channel.

[@samuelholm316]

Watched to the end. Great video as always!😃

[@debrahunter5432]

I have engaged a lot this past year with my son who is joining the Eastern Orthodox Church. Gavin, your videos and books have enlightened me and strengthened my faith so much. So helpful and beneficial for my soul, but his is hardened at this time. God will use all this for His glory and our good in the end.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

Hopefully he will draw closer to God through Orthodoxy. I do find the Orthodox are generally very elitist and they tend to look down on protestants esp. My heart goes out to you.

[@debrahunter5432]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 thank you…

[@delgande]

​@@saintejeannedarc9460prots aren't Christian. Simple as

[@kale6264]

I get excited for every post!

[@huntsman528]

This was good! Made it to the end!

[@MereTheology]

Just want to say thank you for what you are doing. I have always kinda struggled with understand the balance in truth and grace and the nuance of how to talk about your faith and evangelize, and defend it. I was either feeling guilty that wasnt doing enough or that i was being to "mean" but when i did decide to discuss my faith. After I found you it really helped me understand how to rigorously defend in an irenic way. Very cool what tou are doing, and its inspired me to do something similar. God bless. P.S just finished your book "theological retrieval for evangelicals" one of my favorite books I have read. 👍

[@litigioussociety4249]

I only discovered you recently by way of Jordan Cooper. Glad i subscribed, because this video was very informative on something I just perceived as typical, Catholic baloney that was added later.

[@WMsReligion]

Watched till the end, fully worth the 59 minutes! Thank you and God bless you Gavin for this video. Such a great example of charitable and loving way of doing apologetics.

[@bethsaari6209]

Keeping me Protestant, for sure!

[@garyr.8116]

@bethsaari6209 hi sister, maybe you can answer this for me since Gavin seems to be dodging the question - specifically in Revelation12:5 Are you stating that 'a male child, destined to rule ALL the Nations with an iron rod' is NOT Jesus, or that the Woman who gave birth to this son 'She gave birth to a son' is NOT Mary ??

[@bethsaari6209]

@@garyr.8116 The Child IS Jesus. Revelation 12 is an overview of the History of God’s church. There are actually two women in Revelation. One representing a false form of worship (Rev. 17), and this woman in Rev. 12. The woman in Revelation 12 represents God’s people, or church: Jeremiah 6:2 Isaiah 51:16 Matthew 25:1 Ephesians 5:23 2 Corinthians 11:2 Revelation 9:7,8 Revelation 21: 2,9 Revelation 22:17 There is a line of holy people through which Christ came (ie His people). The OT documents this line well and represents it in Revelation.

[@garyr.8116]

@@bethsaari6209 So if the son in Rev 12:5 IS Jesus, then we KNOW that the Woman John shows us (bodily- described in detail) IN Heaven in Rev 11/12 IS MARY (unless you believe that some other Woman birthed Jesus?)

[@tysonguess]

@@bethsaari6209 sorry but the church has universally held a tripartite understanding of the woman being Mary, Israel and the Church. With that said, P1. If the woman in revelation 12 gives birth to the Messiah then the Woman is Mary. P2. The woman in revelation 12 gives birth to the Messiah. C: Therefore, the woman is mary. Each premise is verifiably true making the conclusion inescapable. You would have to deny that the child born is the Messiah but denying it doesn't demonstrate its truth and given that there is no other male child who defeats the dragon and delivers 'salvation and the power and the kingdom of God' (v. 10) then the only way to avoid the conclusion is personal incredulity... It could further be argued: P1. If Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant then Mary is the woman in rev. 12. P2. The church has universally held Mary is the ark of the New Covenant. (she contained the true manna, the true king and the true high priest) C: Therefore, she is the woman seen with a body in revelation 12.

[@lad6524]

​@@garyr.811661. By the woman then clothed with the sun," he meant most manifestly the Church, endued wth the Father's word, whose brightness is above the sun. And by the "moon under her feet" he referred to her being adorned, like the moon, with heavenly glory. And the words, "upon her head a crown of twelve stars," refer to the twelve apostles by whom the Church was founded. And those, "she, being with child, cries, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered," mean that the Church will not cease to bear from her heart the Word that is persecuted by the unbelieving in the world. "And she brought forth," he says, "a man-child, who is to rule all the nations;" by which is meant that the Church, always bringing forth Christ, the perfect man-child of God, who is declared to be God and man, becomes the instructor of all the nations. Hippolytus of Rome on Revelations 12:1

[@sirschober3811]

This is great Gavin! Keep up the good work

[@AlexLoia]

Made it to the end! Thanks for an insightful look at this issue!

[@Jy3pr6]

Hi Gavin, You misrepresented (I’m not saying intentionally) the Eastern, Orthodox Church’s view by not mentioning that it’s universally held that the Holy Mother of God died prior to her body’s Assumption into Heaven. This is why the Feast is called the “Dormition” for us. I may have misunderstood or misheard what you said, so correct me if I’m wrong. Still, I think it’s worth mentioning that the absence of relics isn’t something to hand wave away as you do, considering how undeniably keen the early Christians were to preserve the remains of Saints who didn’t even have direct relations with Christ. It’s not only easy to imagine, but, arguably, unthinkable and untenable to imagine otherwise, that such Christians would not guard the remains of the very Mother of God herself to the point of risking their own lives for it. That there is no textual or oral tradition whatsoever of her remains constitutes, for someone who is already a believer in Christ, possibly even sufficient evidence for the claim. That’s especially the case in light of the fact that the Incarnation is precisely about the cleansing of Human nature from corruption. To deny the bodily Assumption of the Mother of God says something about God, that He would not honor His own mother, whose flesh He chose from before the foundation of the world to be the flesh He would assume for the salvation of humanity, with the absolutely minor favor, from the point of view of His omnipotence, of preserving it from corruption. These two things, the absence of relics and the greater coherence with the logic of Christianity, I think, are very compelling when seen in light of each other.

[@JustSaiyan117]

These videos are too interesting to not make it to the end. I have been inspired to delve deeper into theology and apologetics through your videos and those of others. Keep it up and may God continue to bless you and your work.

[@ClayBitner]

Thanks for this, Gavin. Appreciated not only the conclusions you’ve drawn, but the posture in which you approach the topic.

[@tonycostaification]

Great video Gavin.

[@JubalBed]

Can't wait for your new book.

[@michaelabah1037]

Made it to the end. Great work dude

[@TheophilusH]

I watched the video to the end!! this is such an important and well-thought out message, you helped me in my faith journey tremendously. Keep up the good work!

[@joneill3dg]

I think it's frankly ridiculous that I've heard Catholics try and dismiss this issue as "This alone can't make you a protestant, if you agree with every other dogma of the Catholic Church, you should just step over the tiber already since you're so close!!", when THEY are the ones who made this a dogma of the Faith that incurs the wrath of God if denied. This is absolutely enough to keep and make somebody a protestant.

[@AshtonSWilson]

I agree. I cannot be 99% in line with Rome and still be a Catholic, but I think many lay Catholics believe that that is true. If you walked into a Catholic Church today, you’d probably find only a small percentage who would fully submit themselves to Rome’s teachings. It’s strange that many Catholics, in my experience, live like Protestants in their beliefs, where they assume this wide range of theology that Rome does not grant. That’s the beauty of being a Protestant, we certainly have nonnegotiables, yet I can still break bread with a man who believes in the Assumption.

[@letrewiarz]

I mean, if you agree with every other dogma of the CC, then you believe that pope cannot err when he teaches ex cathedra, which means that you have divine assurance of the assumption, contrary to any doubts your reason may have

[@nathanmagnuson2589]

The RC likes to innovate. If you agree with Rome on many issues but have trouble with some of the later innovations then you’re pretty close to being Orthodox. Lol

[@AshtonSWilson]

@@letrewiarz True, hence why when you begin to find a crack in any Roman dogma, the whole system falls apart. If the Assumption is false, papal infallibility is false. And if that is false, then you very quickly become Protestant, which is why so many cross the Tiber to come to Bible-believing churches

[@joneill3dg]

The Assumption of Mary being infallably defined as a dogma by the Pope invalidates papal infallibility. The Pope has yoked the Catholic Church to error by elevating this doctrine to a De Fide dogma of Christianity @@letrewiarz

[@ImCarolB]

Excellent overview! I could have listened to far more.

[@legodavid9260]

I listened to the whole video while on long car ride 😊. Excellent work! You are a voice of truth and reason, Gavin.

[@tomc1285]

Terrific video. Very persuasive and very well articulated argument. Thank you Gavin!

[@georgwagner937]

Catholics will criticize sola scriptura, because they think that it allows that any man may just come up with his own meaning of scripture, but when a bunch of catholics believe in something for long enough, this believe will become doctrine, because "it couldn't be that the Holy spirit would allow that the church would believe in something false", so it must be true and if you oppose this truth, you'll incur the wrath of God. What? How is this better than sola scriptura? And then they'll use scripture in the most laughable way and they'll pick and choose from the fathers to support their inventions while accusing others of doing just this: misinterpreting and picking and choosing.

[@Rockyx01]

Bingo!! Nailed it on the head. That's been my feeling as well. Catholics attack solo scriptura because of the fear or realized fear that lead to the "hundreds of Protestant sects." As a Protestant, that's been my fear of the Catholic church. The rejection of solo scriptura or prima scriptura has lead to the development of wacky, unsubstantiated beliefs like the Marian doctrines or indulgences that resulted in horrific events.

[@alicekurian9529]

Thank you Dr Ortlund I was having tremendous anxiety because of some doctrines inside the catholic Church Lord is using your channel to ease that pain Thank you and pray for me!

[@bridgefin]

Why would you have anxiety about Catholic Church teachings unless you believed it to be correct?

[@joeoleary9010]

@@sonsofpolaris6102 There's that Catholic love and tolerance I keep hearing about.

[@thefluxlife]

Thank you for all the time, research, and zeal for objectivity as much as possible you put into this (and all of your other videos).

[@AnciAlatir]

Made it to the end! Your argumentation is high IQ and you exemplify charitable character. This is the way to do apologetics. I've always wondered what is the theological and/or spiritual impetus for these Marian dogmas. What causes people to generate these ideas even though they don't have any basis in Scripture or prior tradition?

[@user-ru4iq3ss9m]

The reason you’re still wondering at the end is because Gavin misrepresents things

[@AnciAlatir]

@@user-ru4iq3ss9m what do you mean?

[@user-ru4iq3ss9m]

@@AnciAlatir he only presents one side, he is attacking the Catholic Church not trying to fairly represent us

[@YajunYuanSDA]

@@user-ru4iq3ss9m Watch my video Catholic Vs Protestant interpretations of Epiphanius statements about Mary

[@Josephthetall43]

I watched it all the way through and I thought this was well done. You did a thorough job with the information, and laying it out clearly with grace. I appreciated the way you handled Trent's concerns on arguments from silence and the need to debunk the authority of the Catholic church. There seems to be a strong tendency from our Catholic brothers to presume their position, and then argue from a place of authority on almost all doctrinal differences. You brought it down to the main issue at play, which is the view of the nature of the church. I've come across this so many times in my discussions with Catholic friends, and your way of addressing it was helpful. I'd even love to see a video comparing the specifics in the Catholic and the Protestant view of the nature of the church sometime. I think that would be most helpful in the continuing dialog. Thanks again!

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

👆 Right. If AUTHORITY is Wrong, then it’s already seriously flawed, isn’t it ?

[@MereTheology]

Watched to the end. Well done.

[@youcatastrophe6434]

As always… solid stuff, Gavin! Keep up the good work. You’re in our prayers.

[@arno_groenewald]

Mike Winger also went into great depths about Mariology. This works very well with that coverage.

[@calebnelson641]

One of your best videos Gavin! I enjoyed the whole thing!

[@cullanfritts4499]

Excellent as usual

[@DrMarkich]

Of course I made it till the end!! It was such an interesting video, thanks Gavin! And thank you for your heart of humility that you approach these topics with!