TS&TT: Lessons from Lawson's Fall: Essential Ecclesiology

[@bradtalley4121]

I'm a widow using my late husband's device. I have a women's devotional ministry which grew out of the COVID chaos. This idea of accountability is exactly why I asked my pastors to receive the devotions I send. I lead a ladies Bible study and often ask them to hold me accountable doctrinally and morally. It is the most loving thing to have someone who so cares for your soul that he or she would come alongside, notice my faltering steps and call me to draw nearer to Christ. I have no one at home but Christ and while He is sufficient, He has given me, given us all, His church.

[@periphron]

I have no one at home but Christ as well, but the Chicago suburbs are a spiritual wasteland. I would move to Cincinnati in a heartbeat to be a part of Don Green's Truth Community Church. Tom Ascol memorably said a few years ago that if you need to move a thousand miles to build your life around and ground yourself in a biblical church, then do so, and I so wish that I could.

[@JesseStevenPollom]

Fantastic talk from two wise & Godly men!!!

[@greys-an]

This is so helpful! Thank you and praising the Lord for this ministry.

[@danelleventer6094]

I would love to be part of a church and be baptized. Unfortunately, we don't have any Biblically sound churches in my town. And not even other towns around me have Biblical churches. Someday when I've finished studying and have my degree, I'm going to move to a church that I can join and also be baptized in. Please pray for me and my family. We haven't been able to join a church for years. It's a really big heartache.

[@motorTranz]

"Let us not neglect meeting together, as some have made a habit, but let us encourage one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching." Hebrews 10: 25

[@byrondelgado9800]

Excellent, thanks brothers

[@CrossWarrior1999]

Thanks for this!

[@JamesNEILSON-g4b]

Acts 2v42 provides a sequence of spiritual elements necessary - having repented and been saved then follow the apostles' doctrine, fellowship (in a local church), breaking of bread, prayer.. Thus fellowship is essential prior to the breaking bread!

[@maryloulongenbaugh7069]

Read carefully the sections about Church Discipline in the churches by laws before joining. Ask yourself why you need to feel secure with a church authority judging your life.

[@missionsbibleministry]

Beyond church membership, where were his pals in G3? Why didnt they say or do anything?

[@Feralfax]

Church membership and baptism go hand in hand. You should not be baptized if you are also not willing to join the church that baptized you.

[@sonnyh9774]

What a load of you know what... so don't follow Jesus' command to get baptized if you don't agree with extra Biblical man-made contracts and "country club membership" model? That's absurd. Read 1 Cor 12. God picks the members... not you... not the leadership. Just wow... what an authoritarian micromanaging mindset.

[@HearGodsWord]

​@sonnyh9774 someone doesn't wish to be part of the church then it's right to not baptise them.

[@danelleventer6094]

I would love to be part of a church and be baptized. Unfortunately, we don't have any Biblically sound churches in my town. And not even other towns around me have Biblical churches. Someday when I've finished studying and have my degree, I'm going to move to a church that I can join and also be baptized in. Please pray for me and my family. We haven't been able to join a church for years. It's a really big heartache.

[@sonnyh9774]

​@@danelleventer6094 any Christian can baptize you in any body of water. See Phillip and the Eunich

[@periphron]

Ah, Monday mornings: I was a lifelong Roman Catholic until I was converted eight years ago and was the assistant to the local bishop, and our phone was flooded on Monday mornings. But other than that, this conversation highlights precisely why Trinity was seduced into having an unaccountable celebrity preacher, which is hardly surprising, given what I observed of Trinity's flashy, superficial, irreverent, hip-and-cool, crowd-pleasing appearance. "The goal is always redemptive": that is certainly not the case in the frozen-chosen, country-club OPC, which is why I am a Reformed 1689 Baptist today, praise be to God--the first red flag was a WTS lecturer who did not want to "offend" me as a Roman Catholic, and the second red flag was that the WTS lecturer was a former Baptist.

[@CS-bn4un]

Thank you gentlemen, but please consider dropping the less than pleasant intro music or at least scale its volume WAAAAAY back. Distracts vs enhances.

[@SpiritofChrist-16]

Sacrament or Ordinance? Presbyterian or Baptist?

[@cosmictreason2242]

It's not a specifically Romanist term. It refers to the two ordinances Jesus specially instituted. Baptism and the lord's suppwr

[@maranathahess4894]

Why pray for steve, the fact that he entertained a six year affair testifies to his character. Pray for his wife and kids

[@sonnyh9774]

At around 35 minutes these guys start referring more to their church club membership agreement rather than the Bible to resolve and address conflicts... that tells it all right there. Who are these arrogant men to add qualifications to membership in God's church that God hasn't put there? Step away from these men before the wrath of God touches those in proximity to them as well.

[@NeanderthalWoman-ou8ev]

found a church hopper

[@sonnyh9774]

The false presumption is that you can only apply church discipline to "covenant members". John the Baptist confronted Herod with adultery and other sins, and Paul confronted sins in various churches he wasn't a member of.... drop the mic

[@HearGodsWord]

Confronting people with their sin and church discipline aren't the same thing. You dropped the ball, not the mic.

[@sonnyh9774]

@@HearGodsWord The first step in church discipline is self discipline. The second step is what we see in Matt 18 by approaching or confronting someone else who has sinned. If they listen then great... if not then you take two witnesses and if they do not listen to them , then the entire church is made aware of the sin and given the opportunity to confront the sin should they get the opportunity. If they refuse to repent, then the entire church is witness that they do no exhibit behavior of a believer because believers repent. This is a test or proof of faith in Christ and if one fails, then they are to be considered as if they were never saved and treated as such, so they are then evangelized and loved as a lost person in an attempt to win their soul. So, read Matt 18 and see that confronting people with sin and church discipline are the same thing and you can read Jay Adam's book on Church Discipline who confirms everything I just said. Drop the mic... again.

[@TubeVision2]

I have never seen a chuch that would provide that kindn of oversite and shepherdimg of its members. :(

[@pietersmith9745]

If you see something lacking in a church, take the responsibility to fill the gaps. Equip yourself and start shepherding the people in your local church.

[@cosmictreason2242]

Or leave those churches

[@periphron]

Truth Community Church in Cincinnati pastored by Don Green does, but it is a rare gem: the Chicago suburbs are a superficial spiritual wasteland.

[@sonnyh9774]

Tom will give an account for the souls of everyone under his teaching and preaching... it does not say only those who have covenanted together. That's eisegesis.... Tom. Tom is not responsible for anyone's actions, so he will not give an account for their actions. He will give an account for faithful preaching the whole counsel of God.

[@sonnyh9774]

at 38:50 these men equate not agreeing with their convictions about extra Biblical contracts for church membership as sin and needing of repentance. Just Wow! These men appear bewitched as Paul refers to in Galatians 3:1.... bewitched with Augustinian-Calvinism and Lord knows what else.

[@jimbrooks1497]

How can you talk about his “fall” when we still don’t know what he did. Please tell me what he specifically did.

[@HearGodsWord]

If you don't know then find out

[@VB-vl3ej]

The new Jerusalem! In the 1000 years ring on Earth !

[@danielsoukup5734]

“He cannot have God as his father who does not have the church as his mother” was Cyprian

[@sonnyh9774]

15:26 Heb 13:17 "obey your leaders"???? What an authoritarian and tyrannical interpretation.... The passage is trumpeted by tyrants all throughout history. Context kills calvinism and kills this abomination of an interpretation. Paul repeated says imitate my actions. Nowhere does Paul say "obey" me. We are to obey Scripture... not Pastors and elders. Only if leader instructions are the same as Scripture... then we obey. We don't obey leaders. We obey Scripture. So, if a 6 year old gives an instruction that is Scriptural, then you are to obey 6 year olds in like manner. Mic drop

[@tuyizerejacques6893]

I don't know where you have the confidence to write all of those arguments, but your interpretation of scripture is unbiblical and biased!

[@sonnyh9774]

@@tuyizerejacques6893 Explain .... evidence... Can you do more than give an opinion? I have context and Scripture... you have????

[@HearGodsWord]

​@sonnyh9774 what congregation are you part of?

[@sonnyh9774]

Tom's interpretation and application of Matt 18 " treat them as a tax collector" is wrong. A heathen and tax collector was considered a lost sinner. You evangelize and love them as any lost soul. You don't banish them... what an unloving thing to do. It seems unloving can be used a lot with this group.

[@victoryak86]

Jesus was noted for spending time with tax collectors and sinners because he was a Shepherd seeking out His lost sheep. They were people who generally knew that they were sinful and unrighteous, and probably assumed that God would never receive them. The Pharisees and scribes, by contrast assumed that they were righteous and worthy so did not need a savior. We must always remember that we are all, apart from Christ, tax collectors and sinners and completely unworthy to stand before God. This will go a long way in how we approach unbelievers as well as backsliding Christians. There is NONE righteous, no not one.

[@sonnyh9774]

@@victoryak86 So... do you agree or disagree? Or are just making a statement? Tax collectors and "heathen" are common sinners seeking their own pleasure and gain as lord of their own lives and in need of the Gospel. Tom would deprive them of the Gospel and banish them as personal vengeance for defying his "leadership authority". Tom's actions are congruent with that of a petty tyrant... not someone who loves people and wants to win souls. But Tom would probably say he's defending the purity of the church... and we all know having the membership role correctly matching the roles in Heaven is top priority in the Kingdom of God...,. Not.

[@victoryak86]

@ admittedly I’m unsure of Tom’s actual view on whether or not to reach out to the person who was removed from fellowship (I haven’t yet listened to the whole video). But I’m agreeing with you that “treat them as a tax collector” would mean showing them love and kindness of the Gospel but perhaps as if the person were an unbeliever. It would not mean to shun them or otherwise be unkind as we aren’t to treat anyone that way. Jesus did not do this, nor should we. If anything, the harshest words and warnings are toward the self righteous who don’t have a correct apprehension of their own depravity.

[@sonnyh9774]

Fencing the Lord's table is man made authoritarian eisegetical nonsense. Jesus didn't fence the table with Judas .... drop the mic

[@guitarguru1720]

😂 these are not “mic drop” comments.

[@sonnyh9774]

@@guitarguru1720 Well, if I have to connect the dots for you.... Judas wasn't a covenant member or "member" of any church, and If Jesus didn't fence the table with Judas who Jesus knew was stealing and unrepentant. No one is greater than Jesus, so no one else has authority or Biblically based justification to refuse access to the Lord's table. So, apparently you can have the Lord's Supper with no covenant membership, no elected elders to serve it, and no fencing of the table. Sit down Tom! Drop kick the mic.

[@HearGodsWord]

​@@sonnyh9774 sounds like you'd be happy for an athiest to take the eucharist.

[@sonnyh9774]

@@HearGodsWord I would be happy if men honored God's Word, and God's Word warns about taking the Lord's Supper in an unworthy manner. This charge is for each individual to contemplate and appears to apply to a believer such as Ananias and Saphira who lied to the Holy Spirit. God hates the lukewarm... not the cold. The unbeliever's taking of the Lord's Supper appears meaningless to God and since God only knows the heart, this is a matter between God and each man. No man can know whether another is taking the meal in an unworthy manner, so the table should be fenced by each individual on themselves. It is arrogant for any man to think they can know the hearts of men and fence the table when the Lord didn't do so. So, let anyone approach the table and if they want to pledge loyalties to our Lord... good for them.

[@HearGodsWord]

@@sonnyh9774 God's warning is why the very thing happens that you're against.

[@sonnyh9774]

You can't have a right relationship with God if you don't have a right relationship with the church??? There isn't enough room to refute this one, but let's start with Jesus, John the Baptist and the disciples. They weren't members of the local church.

[@greys-an]

Sonny, I suggest you go to a faithful local church and seek the answer to this confusion with them. 😊

[@sonnyh9774]

@@greys-an While that's a good suggestion, 100 local churches would likely have 100 different answers steeped in their flavor of denominational man-made rules which would support my questions pointing out "the emperor has no clothes". Tom is steeped in Augustinian Calvinism and has to make Scripture fit his theology.

[@sonnyh9774]

At 36 minutes, these men turn a general principle of "forsake not the assembling of yourselves together" into a legalistic man-made law... just like the self righteous Pharisees did in a bid to usurp authority over people God didn't give them. The Bible no where requires regular attendance nor do we see it throughout Scripture except in a couple of temporary circumstances. These men question whether your fidelity and whether you are a Christian if you don't submit to the authority of their contract agreement...501c3 membership club... sycretizing their government franchise with the Triune God of the Bible. Aaron syncretized God with the STATE of Egypt and it's STATE religion and God punished them handily for it... because it is idolatry, and God hates idolatry. These men go to the STATE (anit Christ corporation) and pledge loyalty to the STATE in writing... submitting themselves, the officers, (it's membership is debatable in law but included in theory) and all assets to the control and authority of the anti-Christ STATE, and then they require you to join this abomination and claim if you don't, then you are in sin. Do not think God's anger isn't kindled against this arrogant horde. "Come out of her my people lest you partake in her judgment" Rev 18:4... referring to Mystery Babylon which I believe is the Public Commercial System of which the STATE is an integral part and thus the "church" (little "c" with emphasis) as these men describe it... is part of Mystery Babylon (my opinion).

[@sonnyh9774]

Tom's argument of what is a "majority"?... you have to have a whole number implying defined church membership... is fallacious. Whoever shows up is the whole number. If 10 people show up, then 6 is a majority. Many government bodies do the same. It's not a good argument Tom.

[@michaelfalsia6062]

I truly appreciate what you brothers are conveying but I cannot understand why Tom remains in the perverse and wicked SBC? There is no call anywhere in scripture that even encourages such conventionism or Association. Where does God call anyone to annoint themselves as responsible to reform any individual assembly of God? Plant churched through the faithful proclamation of the gospel is the only call and responsibility commanded in the great commission. The apostolic office was temporary and unique to the times of the birth of the Ecclesia under the new covenant and was never intended to be a model for future ecclesiastical reformers. It is one thing for an Ecclesia of God to be asked or invited into a particular time where an ecclesiastical formation is being sought after but other than that no such ministey can be found in the new covenant writings try hard you may. It id also interesting that although the founders ministry has had a positive impact on member congregations in the SBC and yet the reality is the SBC is more wicked and ungodly than when it first began. When you have woke liberal Arminian reprobates who dominate the convention you can be sure God is not going to reform that treasonous institution but give it over to their reprobate mind and corrupt hearts. This is the hard truth of the matter. One need not be in fellowship with the works of darkness and still be useful outside of that satanic and false institution. To remai in it is to be guilty before God and partakers of that gross evil and damning faith. Since you two brothers are talking ecclesiology perhaps it would be best to revisit Revelation chapters 2 and 3 and see what the Spirit says to those post apostolic assemblies. Somehow we do not see The risen Lord raising up outside agencies and reformers to deal with the problems each assembly is faced with in their independent and autonomous duty before their head and master.