TS!Underswap Discontent Theory (A Metanarrative Analysis)

[@Condimint-hz4og]

One that might strengthen your theory is that in the ruthless route, if you reload after killing sans he will give you a revelation that permantly changes his interactions in all routes. He says : "No matter what you do, or have done in the past... remember that i've only ever tolerated you for the sake of others." This secret makes all interacions with Sans a lot sadder, making it clear that even during his hangout he only "tolerates" you. This implies that the game will go one step beyond just narative dissapointment and reach narative assasination. We already see something simillar to this with Koffin-K, his selfishness and carelessness allow us to continue. What if the ruthless route gives information that poisons our perceptions of the story and it's characters.

[@kamera1890]

That’s a really interesting idea! Personally, I think Sans line there isn’t fully true, and it’s more about him trying to guilt trip and emotionally manipulate you. Although, his dialogues in his hangout can be kind of passive aggressive, so it may be true to some extent. Regardless, the idea of narrative assassination here is really cool!

[@brennanbellis2724]

A detail to add to the theory. In the Sans Hangout when Papyrus and Sans play the fighting game a remark is made about the fighters chosen. Sans chooses a character with low stats but high stamina while Paps chooses the opposite. Sans even states high stats mean nothing if the character can’t take an attack. Perhaps in the Papyrus fight Papyrus will only be taken down in a single hit rather than actually having a full fight most people think.

[@Zonic3451]

They said themselves (it was even shown in the video) they were intending to have that be the case but people would get pissed so they’re giving him an actual fight

[@notpearl3590]

​@@Zonic3451 That sucks; I would've loved to see Papyrus throw out a massively complex attack only to go down in 1 hit

[@brennanbellis2724]

@@Zonic3451 True, However I think the battle would be the contrast of the Sans battle. Where the Sans battle would is long and basically disregards your high stats the Papyrus fight could easily be very short but either he does a lot of damage or he has very long attacks.

[@thegreatmc999godme2]

I believe we are gonna see Papyrus die from 1 hit but as Sans is still alive we are fighting him again before continue, probably killing some temmies along the way and then ending toriel from one hit

[@jacksonvoet8312]

@@Zonic3451 Thank god. I’m all for dissatisfaction, but TS: Underswap gave pretty much everybody a fight. There are many other ways to make it unsatisfying. Maybe it just ends with Chara killing us, and just making our Steam accounts say “ this bozo thought they were in control” or something. I just want Papyrus to get his big chance.

[@redmangame8956]

When you started talking about the hyped up treasure chest with nothing inside it, I got fnaf 4 box vietnamese flashbacks Amazing theory btw, you still continue serving as always

[@capn_toad]

hi, i'm one of the devs! really cool to see what you came up with, great work!

[@inciniumz4671]

cool!

[@kamera1890]

Thank you so much ❤

[@misterboxhead3045]

THE J will appear in the game?

[@grantthomasproductions1274]

How’s section 3 going?

[@capn_toad]

@@grantthomasproductions1274 we're chugging along! it's been a bit slow with a lot of us caught up with school and work but we've made a lot of progress and I'm excited to see what people think once it comes out :)

[@piskyys912]

Adding to some theories of how might the papyrus fight go in the ruthless route, i think the game will allude to his special attack, similar to undertale, only for him to die before he could use it. I think this fits nicely into the theme of narrative disappointment as well as a reflection of undertales approach.

[@Gerbert67]

Something i noticed is that the evil route's bosses seem to be doing the opposite to Undertale's. Toriel got one-shot in an anticlimactic ending. Asgore had a full fight where he went out while trying to avenge his people in a very climactic way. Papyrus got one-shot in a fight where he was 100% serious and very emotional. Sans had a full fight where he trolls and mocks you. Now i don't know what other people think, but i cannot imagine alphys having a hyper-climactic sacrifice for monsterkind like undyne did, i imagine she will pull some "with the power of god and anime on my side!" Bullshit and die instantly (i could be wrong tho, this is only my opinion.) So what if the genocide bosses were the reverse of undertale? It would go with the whole Swap gimmick and it would make Papyrus REALLY anti-climactic

[@kamera1890]

@@Gerbert67 I have seen this take before, but I honestly disagree, because if the Ruthless route is this game’s hard mode (which is officially stated), I am sure that Alphys would be a challenge as well. Alphys probably won’t be like Undyne, but because she’s more like a tactician, she can definitely use everything at her disposal to attempt to defeat you.

[@Gerbert67]

@@kamera1890 I mean, I can imagine her having this gigantic fortress filled with overworld hazards and minibosses that is SUPER hard, but once you reach her you get the anti-climactic fight. Maybe in the normal route you reach her and it's a joke fight where you spare her by making her rant about anime, but in the evil route you just kill her. The fortress still provides a bigger challenge, but the fight itself still reflects Alphys' pvp strenght

[@kamera1890]

@@Gerbert67 I feel like with her brilliance, she’d probably utilize all of her gadgets and what not in her fight, so I don’t think the fight inherently reflects raw strength. It could go either way though.

[@j09k06]

I feel as if a Dr Andonuts rage type situation is the only type of thing where i can see Alphys doing anything. I think she does have a dark side as shown in one of the neutral endings in Undertale, but you'd have to kill everyone she knows or take away everything from her in order for her to kill you "when she had the chance". She'll probably go The ID mode and get angry

[@superlemonslicer1224]

ALRIGHTY, I have some thoughts xD. If I'm being honest I wasn't all for this theory at the start. Chara and Flowey's main points swapping positions was actually really cool and I liked that detail a lot, but I feel like the whole Undertale vs TS!underswap, "wanting to see everything because you feel like you have to" vs "wanting to see everything because you care too much" felt a bit off, and sort of just like calling the same thing too different named. But as the video went on I actually started becoming convinced lol. It was mostly due to the Achievement System for me but the Save Files definitely helped too. Overall a pretty solid theory and I'm excited to see if what was said here becomes true ^^

[@pyroonbusinesschannel118]

hear me out, what if when we finally arrive to papyrus' fight, he first dodges the attack, but the moment its out turn again adn we attack again, chara could do a ''double attack'' like what we seen happen at the end of sans fight where we kill sans without imput, what if chara after experiencing sans, doesnt wanna deal with dodging and hard attacks again to a point they say ''screw this'' and insta kill him, and when his head falls off, he could say smth like ''w--wait! i havent even used my special attack ye-'' ''w-wait! please give me a-'' and then chara stomps his head to a dust. in a instant. giving us a unsatisfying challange as papyrus only did one hard attack

[@kamera1890]

@@pyroonbusinesschannel118 This is cool! My personal prediction is that there’d be a phase 1 where Sans and Papyrus team up, but with the fallout caused from Sans faking his death, Chara is able to use that inner conflict between the Skelebros to get a quick one-shot on Sans. And after that, Papyrus basically does nothing.

[@pyroonbusinesschannel118]

@@kamera1890 isnt that just harry and larry? ohhh unless harry and larry were foreshadowing their battle

[@kamera1890]

@@pyroonbusinesschannel118 It is similar, but it feels like what makes the most sense in my mind

[@pyroonbusinesschannel118]

@@kamera1890 i c

[@SirSealIII]

I was thinking the opposite: You get an unavoidable, insta-kill attack that forces you to reset over and over and over again. Basically being one of those fights you’re destined to lose.

[@MirroredWinter]

well y'know what would be interesting? we know when crossbones "Dies" Well he dies as a superhero his identity But sans is still alive...What if When we Go to fight papyrus instead of papyrus dying in one hit and actually believing his brother is actually dead.. sans jumps in the way taking the hit for papyrus... I feel like sans during the ruthless route his "Tactical retreat" If i must say pulling a martlet of course...we may have a harder battle with him in regard im very interested to see what else sans will do to try and stop us.

[@AlexandroDarioFessia2007ARG]

My Theory is that Sans since now isn't going to do anything in the future. Yeah, that's right. nothing. Why? Well, if we take into account how Ts! Characters are made (Their roles being the opposites but they personalities not being modified), then that means that this Sans is as same of Hopeless like UT! Sans. Undertale Sans already had given up and doesn't haves any hope (confirmed by the pacifist route where you are trying to call back to the memories of the characters). And it would make complete sense, because TS! Sans could be also completely Hopeless and being recognized as a hero by everyone would be his way of coping with that hopelessness. After all, if you're occupied with being loved by everyone while also fulfilling their expectations, then is easier to deal with your hopelessness than thinking on them. However, we should take into account how weird is that TS!Sans is still a judge (since he uses the Karma in the abortion/change route and in the genocide too) which is surprising to me, because i believed that his ability was going to be given to Papyrus as how being a judge is a role. So maybe my interpretation may be wrong, especially because I'm just recently entering to the deepness of ts!underswap.

[@blazie42069]

the more I think about it, even if koffin-k does show up on ruthless he probably won’t fight us, the most we will get is him asking about where harry and larry went Cool theory by the way! Could totally see papyrus during the fight between him with him saying, I was going to use my special attack but i’ve got a crazy normal attack that is even better, jebaiting the players again.

[@Omega_Sans12345]

17:15 NO!! PLEASE!! I DON'T WANNA DEAL WITH THIS GUY! LITERALLY NO CHECKPOINT ON PHASE 2 AND 20 DMG EVERY HIT LIKE WHAT.

[@misterboxhead3045]

You talking about his special attack being nothing makes me think, that maybe papyrus "nothing" would be him trying to spare you, like after his fight, he can't do nothing anymore, so he say that he would use his special attack, that would be nothing but his forgiveness, where he would try to make yo spare you because of his believed, and you just betray kill him, it would be like a parallel to his death in undertale. Like

[@SansINess53]

Ruthless, Papyrus would probably be truly scared of you yet he'll try to see the good in you. But then worse stuff happen.

[@Couch0C]

The developers saying that they were planning on having the ruthless Papyrus fight end in 1 shot helps support this. There'd be a lot of discontent if the final boss of the most hyped up route is that anti climactic

[@MistaBlueSky]

Owa~ so analytical~

[@NickieX3]

uwu

[@SansINess53]

I think TS underswap papyrus' fight will be the same as in undertale but with s and no kr. Or we may not even fight papyrus but we might fight someone else.

[@misterboxhead3045]

MAN THE ROYAL RIVER??!??!

[@corruptedstriker67]

This is an amazing theory I also agree with the narrative disappointment angle regarding Papyrus.

[@sleepypolly4897]

reimagined

[@megaloodin]

I think it's plausible that Flowey might have a soul in TS, it would explain why he seems friendlier and more patient. If this is the case it would tie in to the ruthless route being about overobsession. Chara tries to kill temmie, who directly states they are soulless, but, they don't seem to show much hostility to Flowey, Flowey is meant to be a reflection of the player after all. We don't know whether Flowey had the power to save/load prior or the temmies. There's evidence both ways, but from my point of view, one is acting in response to another. If it's the temmies who could save and load before Chara arrived, Flowey would be in a groundhog day type scenario. Having no input on the resets and stuck in a time loop until the temmies get bored. Alternatively, if Flowey could save and load. The temmies would be a major obstacle, acting to him much the same way flowey acted to frisk in undertale. Flowey might have a more friendly outlook on life, but as a result of the temmies and the resets, he's gone a bit disconnected this why he's on your side regardless of what route you're on since, he's probably been there before. Anyways, rant over.

[@TSUnderSwap-Chara]

The Truth Is, I’m Not Gonna Kill Anyone

[@Superboi0119]

whoa, this is a bold prediction with actual examples to back it up. quality answer!

[@AmbrosiaMooshine]

This is an amazing video, I loved it :)

[@JDGAMER780]

13:48 Wait they are not going to do a "Megalo" for TS!Papyrus?,That means.... NO MISFORTUNE 🥺🥺🥺😭😭😭

[@misterboxhead3045]

No reanimation?😢

[@kamera1890]

They're going to use Gadobadorrer for Papyrus' theme... trust.

[@FNF-d5g]

No Misfortune is just crime........ Even if they managed to make a better "Megalo" for Papyrus' theme, I would prefer Misfortune

[@starlight_ultix]

I ask, I just ask please that at least the leitmotiv be heard for idk 2 seconds, that would make me happy enough

[@naoseipou]

That song sucks anyway

[@utanen]

He’s back!

[@andresjacob2887]

I think that the Narrative disspointment might be papyrus having a sort of heros journey during the ruthless and that somehow find out that the entity or player controlling them with papyrus having minute whole speech about saving them with climactic music during mid of the the final attack papyrrus says HERE IT COMES he uses the special attack just for the player just to absolutely destroy it as the music suddenly just stops papyrus bearly reacting gets cutt down not even getting to say his last words Just no conclusion or pay off, not sad, just abruply ends unsatisfying

[@treythetrusting4954]

The GOAT drops again

[@FunkyHoggers]

I hate (and love) how this makes me want more out of what essentially isn't even there I want more of the nothing

[@migosp43]

TS!Underswap schizophrenia theory

[@kamera1890]

@@migosp43 okay but I cooked

[@randompersonyoudontknow5763]

I WATCHED IT AS SOON AS 1 DAY YESSSSS OBLIGATORY COMMENT FOR ALGORITHM TAKEOVER

[@Tsuna_Dokkan]

I thought it was pretty obvious that “the entity” is Frisk, the same way the Frisk’s “entity” is Chara in Undertale, it would make sense that Frisk takes a more Flowey like approach because in Undertale, you are playing as Frisk and the player isn’t possessing Frisk or anything like that unlike in Deltarune, so Frisk is meant to represent us instead of the player being diegetic to the game, so TS!Underswap Frisk is a lot more like us and Flowey because they represent us in Undertale

[@AlexandroDarioFessia2007ARG]

Wait, are you sure that Frisk isn't possessed by the player? Because, in first place, the player and Frisk are not the same being, but as how you said, Frisk only represents the player. Represents. Because there are clearly evidence that suggests that Frisk itself haves a personality in Undertale (Being someone patient, someone that wouldn't make fun of another people pain, likes healthy food, etc). While the player doesn't haves any kind of predefined personality (because after all, we aren't a character, but an entity that interacts trough the world with a vessel (Frisk in undertale case and Kris in deltarune)). So I highly doubt about how much Frisk isn't possessed by us (remember, Chara DOESN'T possess anyone in undertale, they are just an invisible force that is in our side). And if Frisk doesn't acts so aggressively as how Kris does, it could be because; • They maybe have differents (and probably healthier) ways to cope with it. • They may not even have the same resistance as Kris • They may not even realize that we are the ones that takes the actions, or even knew about our existence. Heck, maybe Frisk thinks that all of their actions are made by themselves. Now, I want to theorize about how TS!Frisk is going to be portrayed. If we take into account how UT!Chara role was the search of power, then maybe the same role should go to Frisk in this scenario. However, UT!Frisk never speaks in the base game (makes sense, after all, Chara is the narrator, thus, giving limitations to know when Frisk speaks by themselves (being on weird occasions)). Which also makes sense as why in TS!Underswap, Chara is still the narrator and why she says things like "I won", instead of "You won". Now, how Frisk would reach for power, when their personality is about not harming people and doing things in a more peaceful way? There's a lot of different possibilities about how Frisk wants power and how it could achieve it without the need of killing. But for that, we should assume that Frisk haves a different meaning of what's power for them. Maybe, in comparison to UT!Chara, TS!Frisk believes that power is having a high social status, a high influence and warriors over their side. If that's truth, then, TS!Frisk maybe want us to do the compassionate route because that fills them with power. Or what they consider as power, at least. Which it would make sense, because in comparison to Sans and Chara, Frisk doesn't haves a proper number, thus, not looking for Power... or at least not as how Chara does. Now, what if instead of TS!Frisk having the same role of UT!Chara (searching power), it just occupies her situation? (Being a Ghostly being that is in our side). If that's is, perhaps, then TS!Frisk is maybe completely innocent. Maybe TS!Frisk just wants to help TS!Chara to go trough a prettier path than a rough one. Which, then, I would dare to say that TS!Frisk maybe is going to appear in the compassionate ending, being revived as how Chara does in undertale but in the opposite way. But isn't going to have a lot of influence and dialogue. While in the Ruthless route is going to start to speak more and try to help Chara to change for a better path? For example, what about when TS!Chara yelled... wasn't towards to the player but towards Frisk? What if the "I don't want to keep doing this" or similar options isn't what Chara wanted to say but what FRISK wants to Chara to say? If that's so, then that's creppy, because it means that Chara isn't being forced to anything, but that she's *resisting* Frisk Help. If Frisk really wants to help Chara in TS!Underswap, then it would make complete sense that it exist the evacuation route, a route that doesn't exist in other fangames. A route which consists about Chara trying to become a better self after her past mistakes. In any case, TS!Frisk is going to be really interesting.

[@НикитаГальцев-э3л]

In fact, I believe more in the Duet of Sans and Papyrus, because it will be something really interesting, because surprisingly there is no fan game where there was a duet of Sans and Papirosych, because the merciless path is like a difficult mode here, and what could be the final test, if not two skeletons that give you a punch in the face. in general it would be brilliant if in the final court, when we arrive, Sans will be standing, and then he will judge, and then Papyrus will appear and will be the Lawyer, and will try to justify our actions, well, or also judge, we can do the opposite, that we will first see Papyrus, and then Sans will come, this will not destroy the underswap, because Sans will still be the second boss, and Papyrus will still be the judge, and will only be the boss in genocide, like Sans in the original. (that was my opinion on this matter).

[@inciniumz4671]

cool theory!

[@broccegg]

I'm so glad I've found at least one person making theory videos about this fangame I wangted them so bad bwhahfhhfh

[@pyroonbusinesschannel118]

fascinating ngl

[@migosp43]

9:00 me when LV: 4095

[@foxyoddish]

Ummm, can you resume what you said? i didnt understand anything

[@kamera1890]

@@foxyoddish I would recommend rewatching the video to understand it better then

[@ZeksDeks]

noo papy.....

[@kamera1890]

He will suffer

[@thecoolestrb]

Guys i think he WILL suffer

[@SoshuTheGnome]

20:03 pink name? i thought that's undertale

[@kamera1890]

You can change the name color in Undertale in the Ruins yeah

[@SoshuTheGnome]

@@kamera1890 woaw i did not know

[@coolerx3211]

Honestly, it doesn't make any sense for me. This is probably the most looked for fight in the entire game and I get that that is the idea of this theory. I don't think the Dev Would make the most hyped for fight underwhelming. It just doesn't make any sense for me, but if this theory is true, then. I am sure a lot of people. Will Hate it.

[@kamera1890]

@@coolerx3211 The fact that it is the most looked for fight is the point of this theory yes. I don’t believe it’ll be a completely underwhelming, but probably go more like the Harry and Larry fight, which is a fight but it makes you expect more.

[@mercygoddd]

The entity is Frisk change my mind

[@randompersonyoudontknow5763]

Sure, the creator of this video directly states not to comment about Frisk being the entity and how its not relevant to the theory at 4:38. In fact, this video is NOT discussing about who the entity is, but is instead discussing on predicting Ts Underswap metanarrative themes based on current information provided, if you want to watch what the entity is, I reccommend watching their "who IS Frisk" video which I'll link right here (kzbin.info/www/bejne/gGOXcqJted18q5o) where they discuss the entity theory alongside other theories.