TTA Podcast 185: I'm an Angry Atheist

[@nyxxie023]

When I was 16 my mom asked me to come to church with her - it was this fiery sermon on hell and fire. My mom was terrified and saying "AMEN!" during it. I was sitting there like WTF. At the time I wasn't an atheist, but I wasn't a Christian either. I believed in god, but couldn't wrap my head around Christianity. After the sermon the pastor asked if anyone wanted to come up and get saved in front of everyone. My mom turned to me and begged me to go. I said no, I didn't want to go. She kept pleading with me in whispers for me to go up there and get saved. I didn't. But after the sermon was over, my mom was STILL begging me to go to the pastor. I could see that this meant so much to her - more than it would ever mean to me - so I did it. The funny thing is, when I went up to the pastor after the church was over, he seemed HIGHLY disappointed that I didn't go up in front of everyone, so that I could be apart of his show. I could see it in his eyes, but reluctantly, he "saved" me in a back room of the church. My mom was so happy, but I felt annoyed. couldn't get over how fucked up it all was. Anyway, I'm 32 now, an atheist and my mom knows I'm an atheist and accepts it now. Oh, BTW, a few years later the pastor was let go from his church because he was stealing money from it. So very Christian of him.

[@Yorker1998]

What the hell even went on in that back room?

[@Self-replicating_whatnot]

@@Yorker1998 People are dirty-minded perverts. I know that because it was my first thought also.

[@lauraannebevan1198]

Sounds like my ex church leader!

[@jerrylong6238]

No, the pastor did not save you. Also, God or Jesus, neither one can save you, because they are both make-believe. We need to get rid of all religion and spend more time in reality.

[@Cheepchipsable]

God told him to!

[@l0lfuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu]

I live in Israel. I live in Tel-Aviv, where there are little to no religious people, but according to law there can be no shops open from Friday night till Saturday night. The 24/7 shops recently lost in court and were forced to close up on the weekend. And why? Because, and I quote "Business that are open on the Sabbath have an advantage over businesses that are not, which leads to unfair competition" - as a result, I cannot buy anything during the weekend. That is insane. When its Sabbath, you're stuck where you are. There are no busses, no trains, not any other form of public transportation. It is forbidden by law. Meanwhile, I was forced, by law, to serve in the military, defending the right of religious nuts to live on someone else's property. Every year or two another war breaks out which disrupt my and everyone else's life enormously takes the lives of many and destroy the lives of even more people. And don't let yourselves be fooled: the Israeli-Arab conflict is a war over the possession of a wall. That makes me angry. And you know what makes me even angrier? When you tell them that, they tell you that you are free to leave.

[@Genielorene]

You have to put up with some serious ridiculousness. So sorry. We have "blue laws" in some states in the U.S.. That basically means that in some places we can't buy alcohol on certain days or at certain times, but the whole damned transit system doesn't shut down, jeez.

[@JM-ot8ux]

@@Genielorene The Mormon Church basically runs Salt Lake City quite openly, and rules the rest of the state as best it can.

[@Superman679]

Don't argue with them or get mad when they say you are free to leave. Tell them : " You know what ? You're right ! I am free to leave. Will you help me, please !? as much or as little as you can !? " When they say yes, tell them to come help you pack your things Friday after sun down and if they could hire a moving company to come pack up your things on Saturday so you can make sure all your things made it onto the truck before your friend takes you to the airport so you can fly to your new home Saturday morning. Then watch as their heads explode as they keep bringing up exceptions as to why you can't leave as you keep repeating that, that's a restriction, preventing you from leaving, when they said you are free to leave. Not asking you to answer but I always wondered why is anyone allowed to move ? IF you are forbidden by law to do any physical work, why are people allowed to even walk or sit up ? Moving your arm or legs, require a conscience thought, which leads to a physical action or WORK ! Your muscles are performing physical work, why is that allowed

[@geezzerboy]

Thank you very much for revealing the emperor is naked.

[@Mrz-sb1hw]

None of this exists where l stay people don't think or talk like this. It's just bizarre talk with no relevance to every day existence. UK listener. It's funny and sad the way Americans talk and think. They believe things virtually no one believes in UK.

[@michelleb2856]

I grew up in Arizona. A pretty conservative state. I realized at a young age that I knew I wasn't straight. So after that thought boiled in my head, I finally told my mother. She said, "Sure! I love you no matter what." I was lucky. I then turn to my friends. My closest friends. (We all attended church) My closest friend said to me, "... It's fine, but god doesn't like it." - This was the turning point. Fuck this idea of religion if it doesn't want me as I am.

[@grapheist612]

I think that one of the major reasons that many atheists are angry (and why I am a closeted angry atheist even though I was never religious) is because of empathy. We see how much others are being hurt by religion, and we become angry as if it were hurting us, even when religion may not have directly hurt us. This anger is increased even more when it has directly hurt us and when we consider how it hurts all of us by degrading society and impeding progress.

[@Mariomario-gt4oy]

U should listen to Greta Christina "why atheists are angry". It's really good

[@BandTiguysChannel]

No that makes way too much sense. It must be that we are all possessed by Satan.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

Mental torture of little children by accusing them of killing a god who loves them and died for them. Sick and sadistic lying by nice people.

[@rain3743]

@@BandTiguysChannel My brother thought being an atheist means we worship satan. LOL.

[@moonbeanification]

I experience more "Amen" moments in one episode of TTA, than in all my years in church...... oh the irony....

[@filthycasual6118]

+Just Jeanne Tes-tuh-fie!

[@whenitakeovatheworld]

Hear hear!

[@jordan1789]

Just Jeanne ....amen.

[@AddieMachensie]

Seths rant at the end. I caught myself a bunch of times. Amen 🙌

[@annaceciliafuglestad1120]

😂The "AMEN" is a PAGAN word Origionally. WELL, I can't docoment/prove it, but is that Too an Irony? *AAAA-MEN !

[@TexasGodot]

like hell am i going to sit on my knees and praise a genocidal killer with ego problems

[@OFTwify]

You took the words out of my mouth.

[@wackywoohoomeme]

Why even bother? If he is real, we're condemned to hell anywhere. We should just deck the bastard before we're burning forever. That is, of course, if he even exists.

[@BaalBuster]

truth1901 zzzzzzzzz

[@MegaReality2]

truth1901 You are either kidding or you are a JW....My sister is a JW and she says this thing all of the time. If you are a JW; your group has been predicting the end times since 1914 and they have done it seven or maybe even eight times since. I am an atheist, but since I was a brain-washed christian for such a long time; I do know the bible and it says the way to tell a false prophet is when he predicts something that does not happen. I would say getting it wrong seven times would qualify the JW's as false Prophets.....

[@BaalBuster]

truth1901 lol

[@Ghost_Of_SAS]

I don't know whether or not I fit the "angry atheist" bill, but my anger towards religion is due to the fact that it ruined my life. I have a paranoid personality, often obsessively so, it has been like this since I was a child. Now, going to sunday school weekly and a primary school run by hardcore nuns who taught 6 years-olds about hell and demons everyday (I still remember the fiercest nun going into detail on what she fancied the tortures of hell to be - that's child abuse, by the way) has left a permanent scar on my subcoscious mind that's not going to go away, no matter how much therapy I should undergo. So yeah, if I saw religion burn I'd pull out guitar and marshmallows and sing "Ding Dong the Witch is Dead" and if that makes me eligible for an _angry atheist_ sticker, so be it.

[@Jesses001]

I hope, even though you are not hopeful of it, that you can repair that damage someday. That is a real shame. Also, if religion ever does burn, I will be singing right along with you. I see nothing but good to the end of that craziness.

[@Ghost_Of_SAS]

Jesse Sisolack Thanks man, I appreciate the sentiment very much. Here's hoping we can see a religion-free world in our lifetimes. For us, but mostly for the people who are still stuck in that guilt-based prison of the mind.

[@Johnlylecrego]

Picture your favorite nun telling this in all seriousness to a quivering group of bug eyed six year olds. And then wonder why it will mess you up for ... what? Eternity? "Boys and girls, do you know that if you sin you'll burn in hell for eternity. Do you know what eternity is? If a little sparrow comes once a year and sharpens its beak on a ten thousand foot granite mountain, the time it takes to wear it down to a grain of sand big enough to fit through the eye of a needle.... that's one second in eternity."

[@Ghost_Of_SAS]

***** What's worse is that the christian concept of sin includes the normal and healthy process of sexual discovery. Basically "Kids, if you act according to nature, god will hate you and you will burn in hell" I had a classmate in elementary school who peed without touching his penis, because the nuns convinced him that touching one's penis is masturbation and he would burn for it.

[@Johnlylecrego]

Ghost81 Holy crap. There should be some jail time for that kind of abuse. I am SO glad I was brought up in a religion free atmosphere. We weren't told not to believe in this crap, it wasn't even discussed. It just wasn't on any of our radars. Church and God and praying was something other people did for some strange reason. I knew from the get go it was all nonsense. One funny thing is, at 14 years old I ended up in a foster home. And of course they were Episcopal and we went to church all the time and I just kept my mouth shut about it. Eventually they decided I should be an acolyte. I lead the choir carrying the big fancy cross on a pole at the head of the procession into the church on Sundays. I helped the priest at the altar with holy waters and wafers and all that sacred stuff all the while smiling inwardly thinking " If they only knew." You know how hated and mistrusted atheists are. Their heads would have popped.

[@tcsam73]

About 25 years ago, I got a job at a small local store that was owned by a bible beating fundamentalist christian who spent the next 3 years trying to convert me. She tried scaring me into believing. When she asked me what will I do when I have to stand before god and be judged. My response was to say that at that point it would be pointless to lie and try to deny the beliefs I lived my life with and I would take responsibility for my actions. She was horrified. When I went on to explain that if her god existed and it is truly omnipotent, then it would know I would be lying to do anything else. She kept telling me that I couldn't do that. She couldn't tell me why. I think her response was party because she had a rote set of answers she was expecting and had answers to and my response was not something she had a response to. Needless to say she never managed to convert me, but I learned how to argue my beliefs quite well.

[@tehspamgozehere]

That sounds like a good example of rigid thinking and the dangers of not being open to the idea that you could be wrong. Certainty is terrible. When you become convinced you already know The Truth and you anchor your life to that Certainty, discovering you might be wrong will shake you to the core. People deal with that in different ways. Some will reexamine their beliefs. Some will rationalise and avoid the truth. I'd prefer to not be certain in the first place. You can be extremely confident in the probability that you're correct, but even at such extremes you accept the possibility that you're not. With that view, being proven wrong about something is upsetting, not life shattering.

[@kokofan50]

Seth, as to whether you should be hardliner or a nice guy, be the nice caring person you are. We need hardliners to fight religion in the public hard, so the religious don't try something tricky, like they love so much to do. However, we ,also, need people like you that can help keep the community and can give an entrance to those that need to be brought in gently.

[@michaelhutchison1972]

Genitally? Can I help with that? Hilarious! I think you meant gently.

[@kokofan50]

Michael Hutchison Thanks, that's what I get for not looking at spell check before clicking.

[@barbh1]

+Padishah Emperor Shaddam Corrino IV I think he only said it was unproductive to immediately attack the grieving parents who had put their religion before their duty to their child. It's doubtful they would have been in the frame of mind to understand or benefit from the flippant remark from someone they did not even know.

[@kenobi1985]

barbh1 Even if it goes right over the parents' heads it might sink home for someone else. Caustic comments have their place, PC be damned.

[@rain3743]

If Christians try anything with me, they will encounter MAMA GRIZZLY.

[@Rando70oo123]

My mom reads the title, "Why is he angry? He has no reason to be... He doesn't believe in anything... If he's angry its his own fault." I face palmed so hard.

[@thunderridge4830]

Stay strong. I feel your frustration.

[@TeaDbluJay]

Anger and fear are the emotional analogs of the two basic threat responses, fight or flight. When threatened, anger spurs us to fight and fear spurs us to flee. If we truly believe that religion is a real threat to ourselves and our human potentiality, then anger is a perfectly realistic response.

[@noskrahuskra3479]

Seth, just wanted to say I appreciate the fact that you give callers/guests on your podcast all the time they need to be understood. In a world of "get to the point" you give people the time to feel heard. Thank you.

[@dgrant591]

Seth refers to the school bus accident at 32:30 and talks about his angry reaction to the family request for prayers. I had the exact same reaction when a victim of the Boston bombing tragedy said on the news that God was watching over her. I yelled at the TV, "Where was God when the 8 year old boy standing 20 feet away was shredded by shrapnel?" I will never understand how Christians can talk about a loving God when a child has just been killed.

[@LongTimeAtheist]

Seth, My father was a Baptist pastor. While we had fought early on during my deconversion as a teenager. We both decided to grow up and agree to disagree in my mid twenties. Although he always tried to get his digs in. I ignored most of them. It was like I had matured a little more than he did. It was much harder as he was dieing at 67 to listen to his digs. Without yelling back where is your god now... (I never did) We loved each other very much. My mother and I were his care giver in his last days. Its not that you are still an outsider. Its that your father loves you very much. He still truly believes in a real hell. Its his way of telling you that he loves you. As our religious parents get closer to that day of not being. They get more concerned about their mortality. In doing so they get more concerned about your mortality. They are more afraid of death than you are. This is one of the unfortunate effects of indoctrination. If you love your father as I believe you do. You will try to ignore most of his digs and politely nudge back if he gets more aggressive. Something else to think about as our parents get older they become more like children. Its hard to see that strong person who you respected so much reverting back to child like state. They can become very aggressive in their points of view. This when it becomes hard to measure your responses. Funny thing while my mother is still religious. After my father died it was like a weight being lifted off her shoulders. She became much less religious. Quite a bit more fun! No more religious digs. There is nothing like motherly love. I have a hypothesis. Our lives are short in the scheme of things. To allow new ideas and biological enhancements to take hold and old ones to die off with our parents. Beliefs are difficult to change. Although they do die as generations die. Its just a slow process.

[@jdlvtrn1]

Christopher Hitchens comes to mind, over and over. And all those he debated who wouldn't answer his questions, ever.

[@seanjones2456]

Well done Seth. This is one of my favorite episodes. Some people find it very difficult in seeing the absurdity of talking snakes and the story of Noah's Ark. I loved when Richard Dawkins asked a television host if he believed in a man flying into the sky on a white horse and the man answered "yes!" The look on his face was priceless.

[@Mariomario-gt4oy]

Funny how religious people ask "why are u so angry" and then proceed to spew threats of hell and condescending attitudes without actually demonstrating the validity of their claim. they have good intentions and don't even see what they are doing. Many are passionate. Our "anger" is the same as anyone with any empathy and compassion. We see the harm religion is doing and how it is impeding progress. When even some atheists will sometimes act like nothing is happening and all atheists should be quiet because it might hurt someone's feelings, yet they give only special privileges in the religion ideology. I have seen many people admit to be willing to kill their child for their god. I see many Christians as well intentioned people. But good intentions alone will do little good without reason.

[@whyme777x]

42:11 Tuning in from 2020, this part made me chuckle. ...and I cried inside.

[@Atilaurakiss]

I understand your anger when you talked about sitting on the couch with your wife and the news story. When the Las Vegas Shooting happened, one of my relatives posted on Facebook, pray for the wounded in Las Vegas. I blew a brain vein. I reposted underneath about prayers doing nothing but maybe if you would vote for gun regulation, especially a mandatory waiting period things might have been different. Another relative decided to fight back, calling me an atheist liberal. The debate raged for about four or five long text paragraphs from both sides, me claiming that gun ownership was fine but manditory waiting was a good thing too. That prayers do nothing only action does something. Eventually I became so angry not just because I was debating and because my neice put out these phrases that she intended to hurt me. She went were I did not go, I did not call her names, nor wished her ill will, I simply stated over and over again that prayer does nothing. She called me names, she wished me hell, she was angry too. I eventually blocked her

[@rain3743]

Just tell a narcissist "no" and that's the kind of "manifestation" you get. There's so much haughtiness and arrogance in their faith.

[@movalboy]

"He's an angry Atheist and he's okay, sleeps all night and he works all day."

[@Roxor128]

Fan of Monty Python, I see. You really need to leave out the word "angry" if you want it to fit the tune, though.

[@movalboy]

***** But that makes the the reference irrelevant to the topic of the podcast.

[@michaelhutchison1972]

The problem is, if you continue the song it will reach a negative conclusion. So the song should actually be about a theist.

[@robertmiller9735]

Michael Hutchison Only because the choir is biased against transvestites...

[@JayJay-two]

"On Wednesday he goes shopping Has buttered scones for tea" 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@bradsclips15]

This may of been the best episode every, totally addicted to this show :D Keep it up Seth

[@indignant99]

*MAY HAVE*, not "may of." Fix your damn illiteracy.

[@DottlesMcDotski]

where can I find a link to the rebuttal to religion requirements to be good, starting about 1:18:22

[@DJBremen]

This man has a beautiful radio voice... And also the ghost episode was my favorite. I love tackling commonly held woo and ghosts are up there.

[@ishtarian]

On attacking the parents who lost the child... of course, Seth, you're right. I abhor whole "prayer-as-the-only-way-to-heal" approach, and believe it deserves all the attacks it gets. BUT... for those who have just lost someone, such an approach as you comment on is flat-out wrong. Compassion for both the child and those who love them is necessary. When we lose sight of the fact that the religious as well as nonbelievers are people to whom we, in simple ties of common humanity, owe empathy and compassion as well as honesty, we're well on the way to losing not only the battle, but any moral or ethical high ground we may have originally had. I'm reminded here of the ending of the novel "Double Star" by Robert A. Heinlein: "But there is solemn satisfaction in doing the best you can for eight billion people. "Perhaps their lives have no cosmic significance, but they have feelings. They can hurt." ... as can we all. Care.

[@shmehfleh3115]

"Is it right to say those things to a grieving mother & father?" There's a world of difference between a parent losing a child and a parent *murdering* his or her child through religiously-motivated actions or inaction. I have zero tolerance or sympathy for the latter and I am not remotely interested in changing their minds.

[@jordan1789]

Shmeh Fleh ..agree, zero sympathy.

[@nicholemoore2448]

Be careful when using the term "murder." - How long would it take for some hard core conservative to just turn around and use murder to describe abortion, then accuse you of hypocrisy? What makes me angry: You apply reason, but they see you as the unreasonable one.

[@DoorknobHead]

Anger comes from frustration. It is frustrating that the human animal is so easily deluded, self-deluded and so able to believe fake news and deny reality.

[@jeffwatkins352]

The picture alone is primo. And your content is even better. So my thanks!

[@Tunnelfish2]

The problem with heaven and hell, is that there are no free samples to try so you can choose. It affects sales.

[@jeffreysegal2065]

I love that on a show about angry atheists, Seth managed to take a point of view that is likely to make many atheists angry at him. It got to me, anyway. This case of the parents whose child died of diabetes because they refused to get medical help, believing that prayer would be enough- it's easy to see the parents as victims, and losing a child is very sad. But to treat a suffering child with prayer when the condition is so easily treatable is to torture that child to an agonizing death. In a way, they can be seen as murderers. I'm not sure religion alone can account for a parent being able to watch their child suffer and die, and those who lashed out at the parents had some valid reasons to do so.

[@Orbit42]

Deeply emotional episode, I identified with the stories and feelings many times. I think this is one of your top five, or at the very least top ten episodes. Thank you.

[@greenmann1217]

Its sad that anyone would complain about advertisement within the show. This show is fantastic, it's an hour + long and FREE, as someone with virtually no disposable income, programs like this are invaluable to me as a source of entertainment and brain food. On top of that we should all be thanking and applauding nature box for allowing it's adverts to be on a show with the word atheist in it, that's a huge leap in my opinion.

[@tyendanega]

I'm angry that people of faith take advantage of, and encourage, an unspoken taboo that personal beliefs are untouchable. There is no other aspect of our lives where what we believe cannot come under scrutiny. Only religion is given a pass, no matter what ridiculousness someone believes to be true!

[@wresler103]

This was a hell of a good one, Seth. Well done.

[@louisbarbisan8471]

My heart goes out to you. keep on doing what's you do best. And hopes that you and your family will have a long and a happy life.

[@RyujinZero]

I identify as an agnostic rather than an atheist, but yeah, I have my rage triggers. I was "saved" by some fundamentalist evangelicals on a chat channel online, who sucked in a lonely college graduate quickly with "God wants you right now, just as you are!" Once I was in, though, it didn't take long for me to see that it was a bait and switch scheme. "God wants you just as you are!" became an implicit "Now, change everything about yourself until you are an exact carbon copy of what we say, think, and believe." Grrr. The one time I ever felt as if I'd prayed and received a genuine answer, I went back and told my fundamentalist acquaintances. They said, "No, God wouldn't tell you that. Go back and pray some more until you get the right answer." Grrrrrr. During a conversation about "speaking in tongues" with another fundamentalist online acquaintance, I was told "Just pretend you're doing it, and eventually it'll be real!" When I asked him how I would be able to tell my previous tongues from the real tongues that were supposed to come from God, he couldn't give me an answer. Grrrrrrrrrr. I was told more than once that "You don't have a mind to think. You have a mind to be given up to God so that he can do his work through you." Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr..... What makes me angriest of all, though, is that what brainwashing they did manage to push on me is still with me, and no matter what an atheist or agnostic says, I still have their rote answers echoing in my head, even though I know they're all patently false.

[@kadare68]

I listened to this episode as it was recommended by the Richard Dawkins Foundation website, so it was my first episode. I was familiar with the idea and have read Greta Christina on her views of the issue. I listened while doing something else, and I was moved with how you read the letters you received. Your voice and their emotion struck me. I would consider myself an "angry atheist" when the need arises. I get your point on being effective vs. right, and sometimes that just sucks when I, personally, have conflicting desires to be both, right and better than that.

[@bkw11]

some of those stories nearly brought me to tears

[@ryanbecker6713]

Oh man, I can't stand when people call anyone who disagrees with them "Hipsters."

[@paxmule]

ALL you hipsters say that...........

[@johnwassing7733]

It seems to me that the "high" some people get from religion should relegate it as an addiction. Kids have to be 18 before they are exposed to it.

[@dougmurphy1777]

Regarding the Aussie gentleman who wrote in about the bleak outlook for marriage equality in Australia - I'm happy to say that despite having a conservative government AND a prime minister who's a pentecostal christian, we finally got marriage equality passed into law here in Oz in December 2017. I hope the guy who wrote in and his partner spend their remaining years in blissful matrimony.

[@jagoep]

I'm angry that I have been told for so many years that I am not truly alive unless I think a certain way. I am also angry that I am told by my wife that our marriage would be SOO much better "if I would just believe". This coming from a lifelong christian who will not engage in an honest conversation of her faith. I resent being told by people who have no idea what it's like to be an atheist, what it's like to be an atheist.

[@tehspamgozehere]

27:00 ish. "Ignorance is bliss." This one's just an anecdote. Depressingly-many years ago I was a young kid watching television. I recall an amusing and cheerful song being put on by what I think was a Narnia-inspired short series. The evil yet attractive witch singing "Open your ears and listen to this, ignorance is bliss" and similar. Despite the fun colours and cheerful song, my first thought was along the lines of "... What? That can't be right!" When the story unfolded and it went on to demonstrate that ignroance is not bliss, my thoughts turned to "Well DUH! Of course!" type thoughts. Looking (way) back on this now, I think I can see the point of trying to hook the viewer with the happy song only to disprove it with a later lesson in order to show how beguiling the message is and how flawed it can be, but at the time I was more angry that they'd think I was unable to see the flaw myself. And despite that, I can still hear the notes of that song whenever anyone trots out the line 'ignorance is bliss'.

[@hughjarce5014]

I'm angry at Ray Comfort..... because of his face.

[@JimRiven]

Is it because he looks like a chuckle brother? media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9ez4z3kIW1qclkew.jpg It is, isn't it?

[@GameFreak4Ever]

I think that was the hardest thing to get over. All the wasted time on religion. Making you feel some sorta false sense of gratification. No true reward. The term "fear pimping" stands out as to why I believe have the shit I believe. Threats of hell. Yeah that's how you win souls.

[@Troubleshooter125]

I'm a bit surprised that, at least so far into this podcast (1:03:00), no one has mentioned Greta Christina and her talk: Why Are You Atheists So Angry? Greta Christina Skepticon 4 She makes some wonderfully valid points, and they are worth inclusion in this conversation.

[@TheThinkingAtheist]

I didn't include her here because she's spoken with me on the subject on previous occasions. But her speech and book are quite good on the subject.

[@Troubleshooter125]

***** Cool beans, Seth. Thanks for the comeback!

[@FairFrosty]

Today on the radio I heard about a mother who left her daughter in a hot car for ten hours. The child died and the mother will face a harsh punishment. Now how can we look at religious parents who let their child die of a curable sickness without the same hatred and want for them to face the same punishment. I am angry.

[@fasihodin]

If my main issue is that my family do not visit me, my athiesm is the least of my problem, I need an immediate psychological evaluation.

[@keithroten4722]

Hi Seth, I love literature. Why am I angry? People that say the bible is great literature, even atheists will say that shit. The bible is poorly written, contradictory, incredibly boring for long stretches, interrupted with barbaric passages that praise sadistic cruel behavior. The pile of shit that people call the bible would be tossed out by any competent book publisher if it were submitted today without a second thought. Like a huge number of atheists, the reason I'm an atheist is because I tried to read that pile of shit when I was about eight. I should add that I tried reading a few other so called holy books like the quran and found them to be the same. I came to the conclusion holy must be a synonym for incredibly bad literature.

[@TheThinkingAtheist]

Absolutely agreed. It's a laborious, sloppy, eye-numbing slog.

[@keithroten4722]

***** Yep, it explains why not even christians read the bible. Could it be just that it plain sucks? ;-)

[@SlamACowGameing]

Frizzurd The Transformers movies come to mind.

[@billkeon880]

Keith Roten agreed. Sam Harris said that if you went into any bookstore in the self-help section, closed your eyes and picked out any random book, it would have infinitely more useful, moral, compassionate advice than the bible does.

[@filthycasual6118]

+Keith Roten As a fellow literature buff, I can relate to your interpretation of the Bible as literature. It really does pale when compared to more modern texts, which is part of why I think the time period in which a book is written or in which it gained popularity ought to be considered when measuring the quality of said book. Of course, it's purely my subjective opinion, but I think the Bible gives us a unique look into a world and culture that stopped existing after Rome. Most of the fables therein seem silly to us in the modern day, but maybe this is what high fantasy looked like two-thousand years ago. It really isn't a point in the book's favor, but I just think it's neat, and should be considered. Heh, yeah. Don't hand an eight-year-old a copy of the King James version of the Bible, and expect them to make sense of it. It's not dissimilar from my own falling out story, or at least the beginnings of it. I unofficially left the faith when I was twelve, because I was bored. I had a lot of media exposure as a kid, thanks in no small part to my less-than-stellar parents. I knew Disney movies better than I knew _them_. So I would recognize all the tropes that exist in Biblical scripture, even if I didn't know them by name, and I could predict how a story would end with 'surprising' accuracy. After a while, you start to realize that all things work to the glory of God - and with such a simple overarching plot line as this, there was no room for the possibility that the story could end any other way.

[@uncleanunicorn4571]

In regards to the dead kid, soft peddling won't discredit faith healing. These beliefs *need* to be attacked, with failures of faith trumpeted. How else can you sow doubt?

[@harrygearhart4520]

I was raised by religious grandparents, yes the scars remained with me almost all my life ( I'm 64) But I remember early in life, about age 12 I asked my grandmother a question. "What happens to the American Indians, that never heard about god or Jesus back when the bible was written"? She said " they are lost" So about age 12 instead of jumping headfirst into believing in god or Jesus I backed all the way back to the fence and remained on the edge until age 61 Went through life thinking yeah there could be a god, and every once in awhile I'd say a quick prayer. It wasn't until Isis raising hell in the world and a bit in America, plus the fact my neighbor is a YEC that I decided to look into religion. My neighbor asked me to read the bible, he was concerned for my soul. But him believing the earth is only 6,000 years old wouldn't convince me of that just because I've seen so much of the world AND I KNEW BETTER!!! So now I have on one side radical Islam and delusional people in America on the other. OK time to research. Know what convinced me there is no god????? THE BIBLE!!!!! Yes I remember those religious stories in the bible, but I never remember being taught how mean and evil the god of the bible is. It's never taught save the virgins for yourselves like in Numbers 31, never taught about dashing babies heads against rocks, or the devil murders 10 people in ALL OF THE BIBLE and that was with gods approval. This bible that is suppose to be the word of god is actually the word of man. Do you know what happened to me? I now know that there is no god, it was if I moved up to a higher plain of knowledge. I no longer think of a god and I no longer pray. I've been god free now for three years. I've learned quite a bit just researching, I've learned this belief all starts with a suggestion and with a non thinking person, it can blossom into a delusional state. No amount of evidence or facts will sink into a delusional mind if a person wants to stay in that delusional state. I think now of it as a mental disorder or illness. I think why can't a rational person see there is no god, I get very frustrated. This will be a very dangerous world if religion is allowed to continue. It's time for religion to go.

[@thehalloweenheavymetalwarrior]

There is no reason to be angry because we all know for sure that gods don't exist.

[@dreamingflurry2729]

The story of that woman (note: I am certainly not some kind of "woke" (I hate the word, but sadly everybody knows what it means!) pop-culture destroying feminist, but I AM A HUMANIST! Which means that I don't CARE what is or isn't between your legs!) resonates with me! Hell, my stepmother (who sadly is a devout believer - luckily not of the crusading variety and not one of the "oh you poor thing, I will pray for you!" variety either!) was done dirty by the church, too! She had had a divorce from a cheating husband (the priest told her to have it anulled, not that she reasonably could, she had had a child with that d*ckhead before!) and that was enough to stop her from ever gaining a leadership position in her kindergarden (despite more knowledge and years working there than her colleagues!)...so she ended her career there with a very low pension (regular child-care workers earn shitty salaries and that means they also get shitty pensions...without my father, she'd be downright poor!)

[@osuzyq828]

Being agnostic for decades, total doubting Thomas here, and finally being able to say last year, “I’m an Atheist.” I watched many Atheist videos last year and through the year. I learned of anti-theism and wondered, am I there yet? I wasn’t part of a super evangelical, born and raised Lutheran, which may or may not be ironic since Martin Luther questioned the Catholic Church and became an apostate to them. But my feelings now are of some anger because of how Christians tout persecution and the war on religion and how we are a Christian nation because of the Foundling fathers, not a typo. And I think, yeah, I’m totally moving toward anti-theism. I wonder when and how long it will take, and I know it will be millennia, just as long as all other “Gods” became “mythology”. But, what we are doing today is moving that pendulum in that direction. And I’m ok with that.

[@Jenkkimie]

I could say I am an angry atheist. Why though? Because no other thing in the world is as much respondible for so much misery and problems as religions have caused. I am angry for what it does to my fellow human beings. There is this great song Emptyself from Postulate. It talks about how or more so why religious people are so willing to excuse it all. How can they not see past trough it? The great thing about the song is, is that it makes no references to any god but the singer speaks as if he was a god and wonders how people would react to him by being a certain way. I highly recommend you to listen to that song because when you think about what it does say, you realize jow true it actually is.

[@atheistechoes9594]

Im angry for what it does to my family and all the attrocities in their book that they ignore and allow kids to read.

[@sporkboy082]

Excellent show, Seth! Thanks for speaking the subject about angry atheists. The truth is we are angry at religion for good reasons and such rage varies. Some are angrier than others and to be honest, I can't blame them. While I consider myself a bit of an angry atheist, I'm not exactly militant either. To be honest, it's a luxury I can't afford. You could say life gave me plenty of priorities to worry about. Still, I salute any atheist who can be an angry one and can present the case for atheism with a clear mind. Hell, The Hitch left side pretty big shoes to fill and I'm waiting for someone to pick up the torch. And about that nature box. I'm hungry now. Ugh.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

I think a response from the non religious should equal the preaching from the religious.

[@pameladeleone135]

This is the most perfect video for me of ALL TIME! Thank you for saying EVERYTHING I want to say!

[@AddieMachensie]

37:00 every church I've been to says that same exact thing EVERY SINGLE SERVICE. Yes I'm nodding my head along

[@kenobi1985]

When atheists go after other atheists for their messaging "style" it comes across to some as a form of in-group censorship. You see this among liberals and SJWs all the time. This episode is about anger toward and about religion so what makes one form constructive and another destructive? It's all rather subjective in the end. What does being "better than this" even mean?

[@linasithlady7377]

I get angry too when I see all the fear, suffering and lost childhoods that cults and religions push on their members. But I am also very happy I found this community, where people are mostly rational, kind, helpful and funny as Hell. 😈 Learned a lot here, thank you all!

[@Slizzard73]

That king of the mountain game sounds like a fun game.

[@Lewa500]

Just in time. I needed to listen to something while working out. This is better than music!

[@zentrucker]

at least in myself I have noticed that my anger doesn't come from what other have done to me. My anger arises when I fail to take appropriate action for the current situation.

[@firativerson]

this is one of my favourite podcasts!!!! Amazing work

[@johnwassing7733]

If someone is lied to and vilified at the same time, you can't really blame them for being angry.

[@seanmcpherson5595]

Thanks for this moment of sanity.

[@AConcernedCitizen420]

8 years in a cult, 10 years in Christianity overall. I now suffer from mental and social disorders that even Alan Watts would find disturbing! As a result I have become a defender of the weak and a challenger of any who dare scare others into a creed or worse! I am on a warpath to free as many souls as possible from religious and destructive social bs! I cry for people I have never met! Knowing that there is someone out there being scared by religion, persuaded into doing things they rather not! This is just the tip of the iceberg!

[@TimJSwan]

Macs never get blue screens of death. It's mathematically practical to create an operating system that is secure. You just set it not to run everything it comes across and give applications access to the system files. If every application is run in a sandbox, it doesn't mean that you can't interact with them or they can't interact with each other, but they cannot spread 'viruses' or any 'program' that does something 'malicious' I mean, it's simple math & logic. Windows sucks because it has system problems in the first place. That's the designer's fault. I can't believe that I'm still trying to explain this to people on KZbin as a computer scientist.

[@Kellerwerks]

I think you misunderstood the young lady at 52:26. She wasn't saying that there was an aversion to science within the atheist community. She was saying that the scientists she knew were not interested in discussing religion (assuming whether they believed in it or not) out of 'respect' for other people's beliefs...

[@barbh1]

I think it's natural and normal to be angry when people behave rudely. The arrogance and smugness that Christians exhibit towards those of us "unsaved', is really the height of disrespect and shouldn't be acceptable.

[@thehalloweenheavymetalwarrior]

definitely agree!

[@ishtarian]

On the "herd" idea (the more that believe what I believe, the more I'm right), this: "If fifty million people believe say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." This is often attributed to Bertrand Russell or Anatole France, but the original seems to be from W. Somerset Maugham: "If forty million people say a foolish thing it does not become a wise one, but the wise man is foolish to give them the lie.' (A Writer's Notebook,1949 -- 1901 entry). In this case, I think Maugham is wrong, and the inaccurate quote is actually both right, and more ably stated.

[@oldmanfromscenetwentyfour8164]

A very moving podcast. Thanks.

[@gh778jk]

A lot of people spoke about family in this video..... and I can understand the hurt they must feel, to a degree. But.... Family is suppose to be this mutual support structure, right? If they are going to shun, harass or bother you, for something nobody has any business with (that includes your parents, if you're an adult) you need to walk away. It is as simple as that. If parents try to get you back into the fold.... they are not doing this because they care.... they are doing this based on 'what would the Jones' think?'... And if they care more about their social circle than their child.... you do not owe them anything. You would in this case have a lot to be seriously angry about. If they dragged you to a church and Sunday school and whatever other nonsense related to this god-stuff... you have something demand a serious apology for .....and you should! I explained to a god- botherer like this once: After giving him a summery of the ugly, toxic things the Catholics did in Europe (including causing most if not all the wars and retarding science and development for about 2000 years). He and and his ilk is directly responsible for that fact that my average lifespan is some 25 years less that it could be. I really take exception to that ! If that isn't 'assault' I wonder what is ! Paddy

[@sekkhiaakare7701]

This is good. I'll have to listen to this again.

[@cousinbelladonna6558]

Seth... this is the most powerful and excellent episode I've heard... and I've heard a lot of them! *hearts* and thank you!

[@Syisulis]

Wow those letters made me cry...

[@austinism100]

Another great show Seth!

[@capitalisa]

Great podcast. You're the best!

[@mlewsader]

Seth, you can fix the blue screen very easy, most the time it's a driver problem. Did you take the time to write down the code it shot ya when you see the the screen? If so, post it here and we can find out what's the problem. Simple fix so you can save money.

[@filthycasual6118]

I tend to reserve my anger for the people that earn it. That way, I don't immediately turn people away, and if I later discover they can't or won't be reasoned with, I can at least shower them with pettiness until I feel better.

[@ghkillah1995]

Love the speech St the end of the podcast Seth, I really enjoyed this episode

[@GenerationX1984]

15:45: Seth points out confirmation bias: "The more people think like me the more I'm right." It's natural for people to seek this kind of confirmation bias, but it's something we need to realize we are doing so we can be free of our own confirmation biases. Most of the religious (and many nonreligious people too) would rather cling to confirmation bias than open their mind to the possibility that they might be wrong.

[@MMasterDE]

Bluescreens are usually hardware issues, but sometimes driver issues.

[@rowdy.rockers]

I'm not angry anymore. Not since I beat the snot out of a big mouth know -it -all preacher! Man that felt awesome!! 😁

[@rain3743]

I'm not mad at that.

[@Rhewin]

It is bizarre listening to this 10 years later, just after Trump's re-election. I miss when Romney being a Mormon was our biggest concern.

[@ideasrule2]

I first heard about "The Little Match Girl" from my first-grade teacher, in China. When she told the story, the part about her going to heaven was left out, and the story ended with her death. The intended moral, I suppose, is that Western capitalism and inequality is evil. It's interesting to hear about a religious person twisting the story in a different way, to support a different agenda.

[@YY4Me133]

@59:57 Thanks for reading Miguel's letter. He explains atheist anger very succinctly. EDIT: Eight years later and they're still using the same tired arguments that have been rebutted over and over.

[@cousinbelladonna6558]

I'm not the only one who has thought of the little match girl... very poignant.

[@visigothsatthegates]

I was respectful and tolerant of theists for years, while my own world view was attacked with vitriol by theists. I watched science attacked, religion inserting itself over politics and yes I finally got angry...with JUST CAUSE.

[@MsDjessa]

19:20 Heh, so it took all the boys to take out one girl. Not something I would call alpha male behavior.

[@kayallen7603]

The call to "pray for me/us/them" ALWAYS makes me angry. What a USELESS thing to do !!

[@atheistechoes9594]

They thank hod and refuse to take responsibility for His actions in their bolk its awful

[@cybersekkin]

My 6 year old daughter is in the hospital for a condition. She should have a full recovery in the coming weeks, but sometimes you see what people think deep down when in these situations. I have no god belief, and probably annoy the doctors with my questions about their treatment, but that is what I am counting on to make her get well quick. My wife who has never been very religious however has collected all the good luck charms and is asking the Buddhist gods to help. Even knowing she should be well in a few weeks I had forgotten how helpless and wiped this can make you feel, thank goodness I can use my energy spending time with the family and doing what I can rather than chasing some religious false hopes. Happily my wife is focussing on comforting my daughter during this rough patch, I am not about to take the good luck charms from her, funnily enough one is a small felt cat I made for my daughter. I am annoyed though that she sometimes thinks we are being punished through our daugther from some thing we must have done.

[@Genielorene]

I can't imagine the guilt your wife must feel if she believes your daughter's illness is god's punishment. Ironic that she's not angry at god for the misdirected punishment. I hope your daughter is young enough not to think that she may have failed god somehow and is being punished. I hope your daughter recovers soon and completely. I'm sorry she is sick.

[@jg3818]

Just putting this on here. What is the problem with the computer other than the "BSOD"? is it the video card, graphics card or hard drive? I know you already ordered the computer but maybe you can save all the information before it really does kick the bucket.

[@MikeOfKorea]

I was a believer for many years. You are right.

[@AlfaHazard]

There's a background whine sound in this video, can't listen to it like this..

[@Jesses001]

That is odd. I did not get that, and I have very sensitive hearing. Maybe I did not have the volume high enough or something.

[@AlfaHazard]

Jesse Sisolack I have high end headphones (Beyerdynamic DT880 Premium 250 ohm) with a USB DAC/Amplifier. I had my volume at like 25-30% and the whine was still audible, above that i couldn't withstand it.

[@Jesses001]

Olek I have some 20 year old speakers that I need to wiggle the nob a bit or the right one cuts out. Well they were really kick-ass when I bought them...maybe I need to upgrade.

[@AlfaHazard]

Jesse Sisolack I simply stated that because it's probably the reason why it's so noticeable for me.

[@Jesses001]

Olek Yes I understood. I think my old speakers might be missing the hiss. I really should upgrade sometime.

[@dtdyvr]

awesome episode - thank you Seth!

[@moneymikz]

Every passing day I do HATE the very concept of sky daddy more and more but other than that I'm pretty happy

[@Alessandro-B]

truth1901 I was wondering when the trolling would start.

[@BaalBuster]

truth1901 Truth requires no apologist. It stands on its own, you're not entitled to your own version, and it doesn't give a damn about your feelings.

[@Alessandro-B]

truth1901 Apart from when it comes from theism. Then they'll invent 'blasphemy' as a way of even killing (Inquisition, Sharia) whoever disagrees. Because claims of truth from the religious are indefensible, which is why *they can never be challenged* (or so the religious wish).

[@ytcomposer]

is this a pic of seth?

[@kenobi1985]

When someone's just prayed their kid to death instead of being proactive and taking them to a doctor, why shouldn't we say something? What's to stop those with that world view from doing it again? Legal and social consequences, that's what.

[@scatton61]

I like the angry Seth